| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| appellativo |
horse jerks foot.I trim a horse at my barn, a qh gelding named scout. I know what his problem is, he doesnt like to stand still and has his own ideas about he'd rather go eat hay or go out and fart around with the other horses (who are standing just outside the barn, watching us.) He jerks his foot off the stand and will not keep it there, it doesnt matter if I brace it with my leg or whatever. Finally I got very sick of that and I put a rope around his foot and I just stood there until he quit fighting me. It got a bit better after that. Then when I finished, I went to turn him out. I went to remove his halter, and he kept jerking his head away. I did not take the halter off when he did that. I waited for him to stop trying to jerk away. then I decided to ask him to lower his head. over and over, he would lower it and then jerk back up again. finally he got to the point where he would keep it lower. he began to relax a bit. I tried again to remove the halter, and he did not jerk that time but he was still not what I'd call soft.is there any hope or do I just have to deal with his pissiness? forever? he's not my horse. advice appreciated! :D |
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| jokersmama |
Charge them for training... I had a farrier tell me one time she would not trim my mare again until she was taught to stand for the farrier- and I thought she was being a good girl. Then when I started trimming... I felt what she meant   
I know other trimmers will add to the bill for training if the horse is not behaving I can't remember what site that was on though. I don't have much advise other than show the owners what to do and have them work on it everyday. Lots of treats when his hoof is on the stand (that's what I did with mine) I would sometimes spend the whole trimming session just playing with the stand but then that's easier when it's your horse and you can trim one hoof a day if you want and take all day and lots of peppermints to do it. 
Maybe have the owner work him and get him good and tired before his trim? Maybe just do the fronts one day and the hinds another day? I did end up whacking one of mine in the belly every time he pulled his hoof off the stand and he quit after a while. I didn't get mad or yell I just did a quick little uncomfortable whack (or poke) every time, calm and assertive But he was doing it to be a butt and play he was bored. Then when he left it there and was good he got a peppermint.
Pull it off = whack/poke! Leave it there = peppermint...... hmmmmmmm... didn't take him long, but he's LBI and very food motivated
edited to add- Doesn't Pat say make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult? You could also make him work if he pulls it off. Have you ever heard Ken Mcnabb's "jog the driveway" story? |
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| Blue Flame |
I can only relate what has worked for me. YMMV.
First - no eating while I'm working with the feet, I find it distracts them. I don't hold a horse's foot. If he takes it back, I just politely and unhurriedly ask for it again. If I sense the horse is starting to play a game with me, I stand up, turn my back to him and lean on the washbay rail and make it so he has to wait for me. After awhile, the horse seems to get three things: 1. I will not trap his foot. 2. I'm not interested in horse fighting. 3. If he stuffs me around, it will just take longer - I'm prepared to out-wait him. If he'd rather be somewhere else, then stuffing me around will just mean it will take longer for him to get there. But then I have no time pressure placed upon me. Horses can really use that against you - the out-persistence thing. If, however, the horse behaves flawlessly and I am the one to place the foot down on the ground then I reward with a strip of carrot. Even if I am finished with the foot and he takes it away, I will ask for it again and wait for him to stand nicely for a few seconds before placing it down and rewarding. I always end handling each foot with me placing it on the ground in this way. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think you handled it fine. I have to agree with Blue about not letting them eat.
He sounds very LB. I would probably use the rope and then reward him at the end of each foot with a cookie (kept well away from him during the trim). Put something in there for him to make it worth his while. |
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| Leah |
what is the owner doing while all of this is happening?
I put the responsibility on the owner. They have to teach the horse to be well behaved or I won't trim him. My safety and health mean too much to me. It is not your job. As a sidenote I NEVER trim any horse without the owner present. Period. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Another technique is to hold the foot up higher for awhile than it will be on the stand. This makes it somewhat more uncomfortable than it is on the hoof jack, which is turn makes him eventually realize that the stand is not that bad a place after all, since it is relatively more comfortable than the elevated position. It takes a little patience but not that much usually.
Larry |
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| learningthedance |
Maybe it's the stand he is objecting to?? My old farrier had a stand. Some horses he would use it with, others would do better with him holding the foot with him supporting them a bit. | ||||
| appellativo |
all great suggestions. I tried letting him eat the last few times and it DOES distract him too much, so yesterday I tried without feeding him and I think that is why it is worse. So I was afraid to treat him when he was well because then with this particular horse I could just KNOW that he would just get fidgety for more food, then.
Leah, the owner is never present. He works out of town. It's always me by myself. I keep my cell on my body so I can call 911. Hopefully I am conscious during any injury. I know I can't bet on that. Is that why you always have the owner present? Anyways. I use a hoofjack stand and always work the hoof as low as I can, sometimes not even using the stand and working wherever the horse is most comfortable. i try to give the benefit of the doubt and reposition if the horse jerks away until I'm sure it's not the position that is causing the jerking. I have little heart to hearts with him and tell him that it's just going to take longer if he dorks around! it does seem to help. or maybe, it just helps me! The only time I even think about being frustrated is when my body starts to quiver from muscle fatigue at bending over. Then I just take little breaks and tell the horse it's just going to take longer if he doesnt cooperate. I always apply the rule they don't get to decide when the foot gets put down. Sometimes I do only do two feet per day because he has me so tired after doing just two. for this horse, sometimes it takes me as long to do two as on other horses it takes me to do four! Like the other night! In which case it is a good thing, IMO, that the owner is not present! Then again, if Ken were present, and it took that long, and he had to pay me more, maybe that would be incentive for him to work on it. In fairness, I have not brought it up with him yet. I've been dealing for the last several months okay but it's starting to wear on me...I just don't know how often Ken gets out and if it's often enough for him to make progress. Looks like we need to have a chat. What is the Ken Mcnabb's "jog the driveway" story? |
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| karmikacres |
Tranquilize the trimmer 
OK, seriously, I have spent 4 hours on a trim before. Probably would not do it again. Get the owner to pay by the hour if you are trimming and training. Mike |
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| Nashama |
I would be telling the owner that you will not trim this horse again until a chiropractor and massage therapist has seen it. I guess this is where the value of a farrier being able to do a full body check before he/she starts work comes in.
Glen or I would read this as probably a pain response and be stretching this horse out gently before we did a thing and finding the sore spots. We have found horses that can't (often read as won't) keep their legs up on the stand are usually very sore, particularly R/LBI's. R/LBE's kick you. Only a very few are spoiled brats. R/LBI's are most often described as cranky with the farrier, and generally being quiet horses no one even thinks they might have an issue. Needless to say, after a while most client horses like this light up when they see Glen and he has to stretch them before he is allowed to trim. Otherwise, as with Blue Flame. Not interested in fighting. Passive persistence in the proper position. Take the time it takes. Allow the horse to express his/her opinion and note what that opinion is. www.animalacupressure.com has a wall chart of these stretches for any trimmers wanting to learn how to do them. Interestingly, the only person who has ever freaked out when Glen has stretched a horse that asked for it is a Parelli instructor. The horse was nearly impossible to trim. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
My new farrier is successful with some of my horses who had problems with previous farriers for the simple reason that he rotates around them and lets them rest that foot. No fighting, they put the foot down when they need to, in fact they typically hold the foot exactly where they need it to be for the trim. I don't think many appreciate how uncomfortable it is for a horse to hold a foot up in an unnatural position for a prolonged period of time. That is what we expect of them when we trim and shoe them. If we let the horse tell us where the foot is comfortable they quit fighting us. I've seen it a number of times. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
This is exactly how I became interested in balancing the horse. When I bought my LBI/LBE mare, she had a reputation with her farrier as a problem horse. I fired him when I saw how he treated her. I spent the next 3 years determined to build a relationship with Mandy and not allow my PNH education to get in the way. For a long time, I interpreted her refusal to readily perform some L1 and L2 tasks as horsenality and dominance issues. Mandy was extremely challenging and had gone through too many previous owners. Rather than picking a fight with her, I learned to use gentle, persistent persuasion to overcome her reluctance to perform certain tasks. Including giving me her rear feet for cleaning/trimming. Then during one difficult session with her trimmer, it took me about a half hour of gently out-persisting Mandy to get her to cooperate. Afterward, I remembered that I had been able to lift any of Mandy's feet from one side for a brief time when I first started ticking off the L1 tasks years earlier. Something was wrong with this picture. Further investigation led me on a personal journey involving animal communication as well as a variety of healing modalities in body work and energy work. My persistence in listening to Mandy carried me through coursework, hands-on practice, and ongoing study. As a result, I've been able to help her resolve an array of physical issues that started in her front end and eventually caused compensation issues that stressed her hocks. Those sore hocks were the reason she was reluctant to lift a rear foot for trimming. It was those sore hocks that finally got my attention. I now give the horse the benefit of the doubt whenever I encounter "behavior issues". I can't take back those years that I out-persisted Mandy and persuaded her to perform tasks that were painful for her. Whenever I can, I share what I have learned with the hurting horses I now see all around. They never fail to reward me with their immediate appreciation when I can help bring them relief. |
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| Nashama |
Yes, I have hidden this for a few years now and decided a couple of weeks ago I should not hide it, but Nashama was so badly abused he has bone ships out of his legs. 
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| bit |
Bitty will do this, too. She's the most easy going horse, so it's about being uncomfortable, and not a game. I had my trimmer start using the mini hoof jack with her and Eclipse. It's lots lower, supports the foot, and she is a lot better. Sometimes the trimmer just holds her foot, and she also rotates, and works on another foot to give her a rest.
I had no problem letting her know that Bit is retired because of physical issues, and that it is uncomfortable for her to hold her foot as high as a normal hoof jack demands. Nope, no food during, but they all get a good treat after. I am always there, and (once a dental assistant, always a dental assistant) handing her whatever she needs, moving the jack or putting stuff back. She let me know the first day that she charges more for difficult horses. I worked very hard with Hawk when he first came to get him ready to trim. Luckily the trimmer at the time loved Hawk, and the challenge. Hawk would take two hours to trim when we first started. He got better every time, and I think that trimmer was a little sad when Hawk just ground tied and stood there for him. |
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| Leah |
There are many reasons it is unwise to trim alone-your safety is one.
The second is behavioral issues like you are facing. And the third is liabilty. Let's say the horse is fine-but the next time the owner sees him, he is lame. Who is going to be to blame? I would never trim a horse without the owner present. |
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| Leah |
Also I am the first to suspect pain HOWEVER sometimes horses are just bulls about trimming.
You have to give him the benefit of the doubt but realize when he is being pushy. Sometimes a little leadership and no is not the answer will go a long way. |
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| ElaineC |
This is so very, very true. I broke my toe trimming solo, a quiet horse who has always been good for me in the past did it. I drive a standard, had to pack myself up and drive there myself. At least it was just a toe. I have horses that just having their owner there, behave better. The owner also gets a feel for how good or how poorly their horse behaves. I also trimmed a horse for a good friend, and noticed inflammation up by her knee. I let them know when I was done, that she seemed to have an injury. The next day she was dead lame. She'd been dead lame with the same problem earlier in the year, but because I had just trimmed her, it became about the trim. When they mentioned to the vet she'd just been trimmed, it became the trims fault. So, even though I'd been trimming her for over a year, and done alot of good things for her, and because they didn't have the knowledge to see how her feet had improved, I got shouldered with the blame. I no longer trim any of their horses, nor will I in the future, even though we remain good friends. Its a shame, because their horses have horrible feet now, nor are they trimmed often enough because I always took care of the scheduling, they'd just get the bill. I've come to realize that when we do favours, in the long run its often not a favour. Not to the people, and not to ourselves. |
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| jokersmama |
Ken Mcnabb tells a story about "jogging the driveway" *this is how I remember it*
He says when he was young they had a very LONG driveway like 2 miles (might have been longer). He and his siblings would take turns doing the dishes after dinner. One night his mother or father asked him to do the dishes, he said it wasn't his turn. They said well you can either do the dishes or jog the driveway (many times that was their punishment for various infractions, he had brothers and his parents took in troubled youths if I remember correctly.) Ken chose to jog the driveway. When he got back in the house his parent asked him to do the dishes again, he said "I just jogged the driveway so I didn't have to do the dishes". His parent said "well go jog it again". So he did. After he got in form jogging the very long driveway twice he came in the house didn't say a word and he went straight into the kitchen and did the dishes. He uses this in his training, they can do what he asks of them or they can "jog the driveway" But of course you would want to rule out pain first
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| Nashama |
I have horses I treat where the owner is an absolute liability. I don;t go near Shama when Glen is trimming him or he spends so much time hassling me he gives Glen a hard time (he is an extreme LBE to easily bored). Even so, I would not let anyone but Glen trim him unless I was there.
And yep, Elaine, there is this terrific sport called Farrier Bashing. Everyone does it that owns a horse. I think if the job is bad then fair enough, but the farrier gets the blame for everything. Glen trims for one close friend where I wish he would not. He trims 8 horses for half price and she constantly whinges. I grit my teeth on yelling at her to get her gelding's shoulder's checked again, the trim is NOT why he's tripping! |
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| Clarissa |
Just thinking about the issue of pain. When I started doing a bigger roll on Sonny's toes he started pulling his foot away on the odd occasion. Then he would put his head right down & twist it sideways to look right at his hoof.
I think it must've been stinging him but he couldn't see what was causing the pain. I never rasped past the white line but that must be enough for his sensetive feet. I discovered there is a VERY fine line between enough & too much roll!! 
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| appellativo |
Leah said, "And the third is liabilty. Let's say the horse is fine-but the next time the owner sees him, he is lame. Who is going to be to blame?"
This is going to be the case whether the owner is present or not. I can't see an owner saying, "Well I was there yesterday so the trim CAN'T be the reason!" The owner will blame whether they were there or not, IMO! This may take the thread in a different direction, but here goes: I've heard of people saying that rolling/trimming past the (front of the) white line would hurt the horse....in this case, the white line is stretched and dead anyways so each time I relieve the part in front a little bit. Are there nerve endings in this area (I think no?)? If pain is being caused, what is it from? |
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| Pyrgirl |
I read a similar story somewhere about someone who had to go out and pull weeds. I think it might even have been Tom Dorrance or someone like that. There was a pasture full of weeds and whenever the boys needed something to do to keep them out of trouble, they got to go pull those weeds. At one point one of the boys suggested using some weed killer on the area. The conclusion was that the weeds were more valuable to boy training than a weedless pasture ever would be. |
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| ElaineC |
Buck Brannaman at his foster home. He had to pull burdock plants. After he grew up and left home, his foster parents used weed killer to clear the field :D |
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| Leah |
I think you missed my point. If the horse is OFF while you are there and the owner is there, he will see it. Otherwise it is your word against is. It is just unwise professional practice. As far as why a horse is sore-this is the information you MUST HAVE to take on the responsibility of trimming other horses. I don't mean to sound harsh but there are literally trimmers cropping up on every street corner without basic information on the internal structures of the foot. app, I respect you asking and it is GREAT to question but I am really confused on how you can be trimming for other people without a better understanding of these sorts of things. It really scares me! If a toe is backed up and the horse becomes sore there are literally a dozen reasons that could cause it. You have to assess the ENTIRE hoof-balance, health of structures-you must be able to read the foot to no what to rasp and sometimes more importantly, what NOT to rasp. |
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| Nashama |
[quote="Leah"]
Yup, me to. I hate to admit it, but I have seen work from people who have farriers, UHGGM and Equine podiotherapy qualifications which is just plain awful hoof balancing, never mind the blokes that set up after one weekend school. On the plus side, you can set yourself a steady improvement program. Here, I make sure Glen get to at least 2 courses a year in something to do with hooves and biomechanics to get that constant check and balance on his work. |
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| appellativo |
I understand you guy's concern. But my point was kind of rhetorical in answer to someone's comment that when they rolled the horses toe he complained, that I do not think that in this horse there was pain resulting from backing up/relieving the pressure in front of a disconnected white line. Of course there are many reasons a horse's hoof can feel pain. thin soles trimmed in such a way that too much weight is put on them without enough protection being one, taking too much heel and trimming in such a way that the back of the hoof gets too much stimulation before it's ready/developed (and problems with fungus, etc) being another.
I promise you I did not decide to trim for somebody else with just one weekend of training. I studied and read approximately over 300 hours, went to clinics and did dissections, then I trimmed under a certified trimmer for eight months and trimmed my own horse for a year and a half before taking on anybody elses horses. I'm not getting defensive but I just wanted to give you the picture of my education (which is by no means complete...as I and I hope you all, are constantly learning, but competent enough to do well by the horse) and experience to be sure you knew it wasnt as bad as the examples you gave in your posts! 
That being said, I still think I can learn from discussion and I will certainly reconsider my operating basis for trimming, requiring the owner be present. I may end up losing a client, in this case though, since I think he is out of town in most cases. If this ends up being the case, I will be relinquishing the horse to a farrier who I fired myself for doing such a crappy job. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
If only perfect farriers trimmed horses feet, there'd be millions of horses too lame to ride. I have to give ANYONE credit who tries to educate themselves in how to trim correctly...as adverse to just leave it to the farrier, or worse yet, ignore the feet all together.
KUDOS to Erin and all others who are TRYING! (The forest would be a very quiet place, if the only birds who sang, were the ones who sang best) |
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| Leah |
Apps-good on you.
You have committed lots of time and hands on help. That is great to hear! Carry on then! |
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| appellativo |
Thanks Carol and Leah. I love that quote about the birds in the forest, I thought of that same one earlier. I am one of those who in the past has been afraid to do things wrong and it keeps me from action. I am trying to balance that with a 'go get 'em' attitude, but keeping it balanced, and no matter what I do, be sure I do my part to get educated so I can do a good job. I'll never pe perfect though
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| Nashama |
There are no perfect farriers, just ones who continually improve and ones who qualify then do nothing except what they learned in their original classes. It's up to each person to choose which one they want to be. My understanding is everyone here is the first group. |