| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Cracklinrose |
Horse Slaughter and Consumption LegalizedJust got this message...haven't checked it out yet. Anyone else know about this???Obama Legalizes Horse Slaughter for Human Consumption Author: madeline bernstein Published: November 28, 2011 at 2:52 pm Horse slaughter plants are legal again in the United States. Restrictions on horse meat processing for human consumption have been lifted. In a bipartisan effort, the House of Representatives and the United States Senate approved the Conference Committee report on spending bill H2112, which among other things, funds the United States Department of Agriculture. On November 18th, as the country was celebrating Thanksgiving, President Obama signed a law, allowing Americans to kill and eat horses. Essentially, one turkey was pardoned in the presence of worldwide media while in the shadows, buried under pages of fiscal regulation, millions of horses were sentenced to death. Horse slaughter has been prohibited in the United States as funding for inspections of horses in transit and at slaughter houses was non-existent. This worked because the horse meat cannot be sold for human consumption without such inspections. The House version of the bill retained the de-funding language and the Senate version did not. The conference committee charged with reconciling the two opted to not include it. The result is that it is now legal to slaughter horses for humans to eat. Notwithstanding that 70% of Americans oppose horse slaughter, that President Obama made a campaign promise to permanently ban horse slaughter and exports of horses for human consumption (horses can be sent to Mexico and Canada), that documentation of animal cruelty, slaughterhouse stench, fluid runoff and negative community impact exists, it is taxpayers that will bear the costs! Wyoming state representative Sue Wallis and her pro-slaughter group estimate that between 120,000 and 200,000 horses will be killed for human consumption per year and that Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Georgia and Missouri, are considering opening slaughter plants. During these trying times, is the only thing that Democrats and Republicans can agree on is that Americans need to eat horses? Read more: http://technorati.com/lifestyle/a...laughter-for-human/#ixzz1f9TXNPhq |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Thank goodness. At last some common sense coming out of Washington. | ||||||
| thelmanelle |
I am not oppose to jobs. Being part of SHI with cattle thief up and horse thief industry...it concerns me. But, there will always be horse thieves. | ||||||
| Cracklinrose |
Really? I don't think I could take it if I see USDA horse meat in my grocery store...... Are dogs and cats next? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Horses were slaughtered legally for meat up until Bush signed a law making it illegal for the USDA to inspect horse meat, effectively shutting down U.S. plants. There never was a lot of horse meat available, only in specialty shops. Most of it went to zoos and pet food manufactures, or canned and sent overseas.
What happened with the shutting of the plants was NOT the reduction of horse slaughter or over breeding of horses as the proponents wanted. Instead a hundred thousand horses a year were shipped to Canada (at least it is humane there, and that is where our zoo meat currently comes from since it has to be inspected), and Mexico, where they don't use a bolt gun. Instead they sever the spinal cord and hang the horse, fully aware, while it bleeds out. All the horrible anti-slaughter films were filmed just over the border. That is for the horses that make it that far...many starve to death in the holding pens awaiting slaughter. Elsewhere in the U.S. unwanted horses have been taken out and shot, abandoned in fields and open range, or just left to starve to death some place. What we did to those horses was worse then what we saved them from. A law against slaughter did not force people to care about their horses anymore then they care about their excess dogs and cats. Most people are NOT evolving into empathetic creatures. Look at our planet and rape of resources and dwindling habitat critical for other species. I think all along, the focus should have been placed on finding humane euthanasia that kept the meat edible. The drugs used now means the carcass has to go to a landfill. This is a horrendous waste in today's world of 7 billion people, 1 in 5 are starving. |
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| merle |
We eat cows, chickens, pigs, goats, turkeys...why not horses, or for that matter dogs or cats? Why is one species some how considered better, more worthy than another species? |
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| merle |
I think people forget about the MILLIONS of cats and dogs killed each year in the US. We just turn a blind eye to it.
Yes, yes, yes! I wish all the effort spent trying to ban horse slaughter was used to ensure human treatment (breeding, raising, slaughter, euthanasia) of ALL animals. All animals deserve humane treatment, not just horses. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
BTW - consumption of horse meat is and always has been legal. I know many ranchers who sell horses to people who slaughter and eat them. With all the immigrants from all over the world who the LDS church has converted and moved to Salt Lake, they had to pass a law making it illegal to eat cats and dogs. It is not illegal any place where a law hasn't specifically passed forbidding it. | ||||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I agree Merle. Life is precious, all life. It should mean something. | ||||||
| whisperingwindfarms |
I'm all for humane euthanasia of any species including my own. | ||||||
| becdubie |
Well this is a touchy subject for sure. I would rather see the US allow horse slaughter, and inspect and make sure it's humane. Not havng them in the US was not stopping it.
I don't like laws telling people what they can and cannot eat.......Just because I won't ever eat horse meat (unless in dire circumstances) doesnt' mean I should tell others they can't eat it. To me it's more important that at the end of their life, they are treated humanely. Horses, dogs, cats, pet birds, gunnea pigs.... cows, pigs, chickens, elk, deer....etc...... Unfortunately regulating the breeding, or over breeding of horses AND our house pets has proven to be nearly impossible, there needs to be a solution. Think about how many "rescue" operations we have heard about recently...... I second this...
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| Cracklinrose |
No one species is better than any other but some are raised for the sole purpose of being "food". The horse isn't. I just was suprised at the sudden passing of this law and the lack of publicity about it. I know everyone has an opinion about this issue but this just seems to be about big money. I doubt if the people behind this really care about how humanely the horse destined for slaughter is being treated. And...I doubt if all the slaughter houses will care either. Just because they are in the US doesn't mean that they will be treated humanely. I think we just took one step forward and now two steps back. Whenever there is a change there has to be period of tranistion when things get bad before they balance out. I know of two "breeders" just in my small rural area that quit breeding because there was no money to be made. Now that the price of horses will probably go back up because of the meat price, they will most likely start again. How can this be a good thing? How many other "breeders" out there will do the same? It's just a very sad day for the horse. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Shelly wrote:
So then it seems to me that the question is, will the supply of old, injured and abandoned horses meet that demand. If it doesn't, then someone will begin to raise horses(or steal them) just for meat alone. Who knows at this point how it will turn out. Larry |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
I have a a very good friend who has made a ton of money in the last little bit taking all the free horses he can get. He gathers them at his farm in SC then loads them on his stock trailer and drives them to Canada. I don't have any idea what the slaughter laws are in Canada.
It is what it is. I'd much prefer them to be slaughtered humanely here where the cash stays here than have the cash and the horses go to Mexico where I can't even talk about what I know about horse slaughter there. It doesn't bother the horses nearly as much as it bothers us. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
But Erin, you're still talking about free horses as far as your friend is concerned. If the number of free horses meets the demand, then your point may be valid. But if it doesn't, and we can probably expect a shortage of beef next year due to many ranchers selling off parts of their cow herds because of the drought this year, then that might increase demand for horse meat. We can probably expect beef prices to be high for the next few years. That might make horse meat more attractive, especially with the economy and high unemployment. And I'm not sure that we can assume that slaughter houses here in the U.S. are necessarily always humane. I raise beef cattle and sometimes I hear about things that aren't always as they should be. So I view this new law with some apprehension. I'm not necessarily opposed to it but I don't see it as a slam dunk good thing either. It depends on a lot of things.
The timing of this bill with the drought this year is interesting. I would like to know who lobbied for it. Larry |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I have never seen people breed horses BEFORE specifically for slaughter. I have seen many people do like Erin's friend, buy cheap auction horses or free horses, feed them up if they need to, and take them to slaughter. This has always happened.
What I have seen since this law was passed are people who specifically breed horses for slaughter to select markets, there ARE people in the U.S. who still eat horse meat and do their own butchering to enjoy it. There are ranchers who raise drug-free horses just for this market, right now, today. Shelley, I don't think anyone has pushed to re-open the U.S. plants to make money..there were only three before, and not big enough employers to warrant much action by the U.S. Congress. The reason the plants are reopening is because the States have asked for it. There is not a State in the U.S. now currently financially able to deal with the GIGANTIC excess horse problem. All the abandoned horses have to be dealt with at taxpayer expense. Here in the western states, horses are turned loose on ranches and private hay fields and pastures, out on the Open range. There just is not enough resources right now to deal with all these horses as many members of the public would prefer - they all get a nice forever home. There just aren't that many homes. Its' reality. It may suck, but it's the truth. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
A friend posted this on Facebook. It's a pretty good explanation why so many horse lovers have come - the hard way - to support reopening the horse slaughter plants in the U.S.
http://sidelinesnews.com/blogs/la.../for-the-love-of-horses-pt-1.html |
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| Cracklinrose |
I certainly don't have the answers but there are a couple things I do know.
If the price of horses increase to where they were before, then there will be more irresponsible horse breeders going back in business. There is nothing humane about horse slaughter. The horses at the slaughter house know what is going on. They can sense and smell death and must be terrified. It isn't like taking a dog to the vet where he is calmly put to sleep and then euthenized. That is humane. I think it is very suspicious the way that this law was passed so secretly and quickly. Someone is either being paid back for something or someone very powerful is behind it. I don't believe that the welfare of the horse is the reason, it has to be money. |
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| dmcamelothills |
I don't have all the answers either, nor the power to make much happen. I do prefer though to fight for answers and solutions and not just roll over and give up. I agree with your points and have the same suspicions, the more I dig the more it becomes clear it's all about follow the money. You've made good points. |
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| Cracklinrose |
Here is a link to a petition to sign to overturn the legalization of horse slaughter for human comsumption.
http://www.change.org/petitions/o...e-slaughter-for-human-consumption |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Of course it is about money. No one has the resources to feed and take care of these horses until they die a natural death. Also, no one has the money to euthanize and bury all these horses...
Farm call, vet services, burial services usually run $350 to $550 depending on where you are. Multiply that times 100K horses and you get $35-50 million each year. And then there is the landfill space that cities and counties have, and that isn't figured in at all. So, instead we have what we have now, horses shipped to Mexico and Canada or taken out in the back 40 and shot, probably several times to kill them. This law was passed to end the current practices. It is rose colored glasses to pretend it is isn't happening and ignore the horrible end most American horses face right now, today. As a naturalist I consider it a horrible waste of resources - both money and meat. I think we'd be very selfish to bury a hundred thousand horses a year and waste what nature has provided. We still have zoo animals to feed, we still have dogs and humans to feed. There is nothing about the reopening of the slaughter plants that says YOU have to send your horse to slaughter or YOU need to eat horse meat. These are personal choices. That said, other people should have the choice of what to do with their horses too. Anyone who thinks "humane euthanasia" is better then a bolt gun has probably never done the first nor witnessed the second. The first sedates the horse and then stops their heart...essentially a heart attack. Is it painful? Aren't all heart attacks painful? While I see doing this for a horse in pain and suffering, you should try doing it to a healthy horse. When we put Belle down (DSLD) the look in her eyes was horrible. We felt like Judas. It's a day we'll never forget. I don't think your solution is good for horses either. Remember when the BLM proposed euthanizing and burying all the unadoptable horses in their holding pens? Public outcry stopped it. Now imagine the outcry for euthanizing pet horses. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think everyone who signs this petition should anti-up the costs for euthanasia and burial. The American taxpayer is already having a hard time just surviving right now. |
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| becdubie |
I agree. Also as Carol said, no one is telling you to take your horse to slaughter, it's still a personal choice. If you don't support this then how would you all like to pay for all the unwanted horses that are starving to death every year..... each horse will eat 3-5 ton of hay a year. Around $500+/year just to feed 1 horse hay for a year. No matter how you slice it, horses are livestock, in the eyes of the law, the same category as a cow. You know somepeople keep cows for pets......but most of us still eat beef. I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot eat and I don't want anyone else telling me what to do. I'll take care of my own in the best way I see fit, at the end of their lives, it will probably be a bullet that puts my horses down and they will be buried right here on my property. Not everyone has enough property to bury their horses at home, or the means to put them down themselves when the time comes, this is one choice and if there is a slaughter plant not 1000's of miles away that is inspected and horses are treated with as much dignity as possible. Their remains can be used to feed a zoo animal..... that's not all bad. |
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| ErinR76 |
cracklinrose said: "No one species is better than any other but some are raised for the sole purpose of being "food". The horse isn't.
I just was suprised at the sudden passing of this law and the lack of publicity about it. I know everyone has an opinion about this issue but this just seems to be about big money. I doubt if the people behind this really care about how humanely the horse destined for slaughter is being treated. And...I doubt if all the slaughter houses will care either. Just because they are in the US doesn't mean that they will be treated humanely. I think we just took one step forward and now two steps back. Whenever there is a change there has to be period of tranistion when things get bad before they balance out. I know of two "breeders" just in my small rural area that quit breeding because there was no money to be made. Now that the price of horses will probably go back up because of the meat price, they will most likely start again. How can this be a good thing? How many other "breeders" out there will do the same? It's just a very sad day for the horse." I agree with this. I also agree with lots of what Erin and Carol said, too. The realities of the situation are indeed dire. But I still cannot ignore the fact that it's this miserable because of exactly how miserable the human individual and human society itself is. There is a small pocket that have a vision in mind, a vision where things are balanced, harmonious and peaceful for all involved, and it is just about impossible to be brought into fruition. How utterly frustrating. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
I think I like Erin's perspective. This isn't a choice between one good option and one bad option. It's a choice between two bad options, from the horse's perspective. Bad things will happen to horses regardless of whether slaughter houses are legal in this country or not because there will always be people who are not concerned about the welfare of another species. Some people aren't even concerned about the welfare of their own species.
It looks like this law may have been slipped into the larger bill at the last moment as politicians often do, and I'm betting that it's not for the welfare of horses. Someone is planning to benefit from the legalized slaughter of horses, most likely. So, if horse meat becomes a profitable venture, we will still have concerns about how horses are treated. It will just involve different concerns. In this case, you might want to think about padlocking your pastures, barns, stalls, etc.. If the slaughter of horses becomes more profitable, more horses will be stolen. Some horses are pretty easy to steal. More horses will be produced too so the net result will be that more horses will be killed. And never assume that slaughter houses are humane just because they're legal. Overall, will the new bill mean that horses will suffer more, or less? Who knows? It will change some things though and that is what we need to pay attention to. If you like this bill, don't get too complacent, it will probably not turn out to be as good a deal for horses as you think it is. If you don't like it, don't get too despondent, a lot of horses are getting a pretty bad deal right now. Just keep an eye on your own horses and never totally trust either the government or the free market to take care of the rest of them. Larry |
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| Cracklinrose |
Excellent post Larry. Totally agree with your comments. |
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| becdubie |
Well, every business exists to make a profit.
Fact: Horses are classified as Livestock, at least here in MT they are. From Wikipedia:
The law was not kept underwraps...I heard about it, it was pushed through by Max Bacus from MT... At persent time there are no other viable solutions to the problem that exists. Same as too many stray dogs, cats...... This is America folks..... if you dont' like it...THINK OF A BETTER SOLUTION THAT ACTUALLY WORKS THEN. Thinking that everyone cares for their horses the same way we do is a fairy tale. 
My neighbor is a commercial livestock hauler. He hauls semi truck full of horses to Canada every month..... It's still going on... |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Ditto |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
For those of you with closed minds, don't read this. I know Larry has an open mind so I'm addressing the open mind here: I'm not picking on you Larry but until any human being actually knows what a horse's perspective is, this is speculation. Beings come into this physical form knowing what - in a general framework - this lifetime will bring. Being brought into physical form for the sake of feeding other species might be exactly what that being needs. We don't know what the horse's perspective is. They don't process thought the way humans do - our thought is much more direct and refined - more complex. I'm trying to think of any species that's not part of the food chain and can't do it. Even humans - if we scatter the ashes of the deceased - are excellent fertilizer for plants. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Erin wrote:
So now the alternative being offered to starvation is to legalize slaughter houses again. Are we sure that we know what goes through a horse's mind at the holding pen of a legal slaughter house when it observes one horse after another entering the killing pen and not coming out? Maybe the horse hears the gunshots. But just because we cannot be sure of the horse's perspective, does that justify reopening the slaughter houses? Maybe, maybe not. Have you ever watched the video of the cow/steer named Tommy who was in line behind other cattle who were being shot right in front of him? That animal looked pretty frightened to me as his turn in the killing chute approached. I'm sure these new slaughter houses will be more humane than that one was but my point is that it seems to me that there are some indications that animals such as cows and horses might very well realize or have a suspicion of what is going to happen to them. My position is that whether you are pro or con on this issue, you probably should not feel very good about it either way because the net effect is that it probably won't affect the horse's plight a whole lot and I think we should resist the temptation to justify our opinion based on the fact that man does not understand the horse's perspective. As horse lovers, I think we owe it to all horses to make sure that we aren't just taking a position for the sake of our own expediency, especially since we humans are largely responsible for putting so many horses in the position of being unneeded or unwanted in the first place through irresponsible breeding, both theirs and ours(if we take away their natural habitat for our own use because we need to feed our own species, we make horses unwanted). The point is that neither option is much of an answer. I think we at least owe them an honest and fair minded debate. And I guess that's what we're doing right now. So, good for us. Erin wrote:
Larry |
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| ztmag |
The price of horses didn't drop because of the slaughter issue. There are many complex issues involved. A. The economy is bad, so people can't afford to feed their horses. Ergo, there are more horses on the market so the price has dropped. B. The price of gas is high, so the price of feed is high. This leads right back to A--even more horses on the market. C. The price of horsemeat affects the base price of a horse, so if meat is going for, say $1 per pound, that makes the average horse worth around $1000. If meat is going for $2 per pound, that makes a horse worth around $2000. The cost of breeding and raising a horse is much higher than $2000. The smaller breeder who is looking to break even or even make a profit ought to be smart enough to know this. The people who are justifying breeding more horses because they can always sell them for slaughter are people who have enough money to afford losing it and not enough scruples to care what happens to their horses. They don't care if the horses are shipped to Canada or Mexico, so legalized slaughter will not affect their decision making process. I agree with Carol. The only way we can force horse slaughter to become a humane process is if we continue to work on the process and laws here in our own country. Temple Grandin has already designed a slaughter house that she thinks will be humane for horses. Legislation has been passed that bans the double decker trucks. Of course, "what is best for the horse" is a long life, well loved and in the end humane euthanasia, but we also have to accept the fact that that just isn't going to happen for a lot of horses out there. And, of course, this is about money. But, not all people who want to make money are unscrupulous bastards. Again, if we can work with the people who are setting up the slaughter houses (and there are already folks out there trying to get them started), then maybe we can make a difference to those horses that no one wants or can afford. My old horse died of colic. He suffered for several hours before I found him. Then he suffered while I hauled him an hour to the vet. They drugged him, but he was still suffering. They took him in to surgery and couldn't save him. Was this the best end possible? No one would argue that I treated my horse badly or intentionally caused him pain, but he died what I consider to be a horrible death anyway. Every time I think about the horses being hauled to Mexico for slaughter, I think how can we allow this to happen? Why can't we work to ensure that those horses, at least, will find the best end possible? |
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| Cracklinrose |
This just makes my argument stronger. The starving and neglected horses may have happened anyway with the recession. Now the economy is getting better (slightly), new slaughter houses will drive the price of meat up, there will be more demand thus more horses will be supplied. Not a good option for the horse who ends up at the slaughterhouse. There has to be a better option out there. If there are excess horses, then the problem lies with the breeders. Maybe there should be a buying or selling fee for every horse or a license. There has to be a way to get some money from the people who are making money creating these unwanted horses. Just a thought....don't slam me for thinking! |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
First, $1/pound meat does not mean horses sell at auction for $1000. Meat prices don't account for waste - hide, bone, non meat tissue. Before the USDA ban was passed horses sold at auction for $300-$500 at meat prices. Not worth breeding for, but definitely worth hauling a horse to auction, and keeping him fat enough to weigh and sell well. THAT is the big difference to the horse, between no value ( current status) and the reopening of slaughter houses and slaughter prices.
I fully realize that this is hard way to think for a horse lover, that it actually is better for individual horses to be sold for meat, but it is true. |
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| Cracklinrose |
Six years ago I bought a 4 day old nurse mare foal from auction for $250. That was hide price because he had spots. Solid color foals went for $150. That was meat price because their hides weren't worth anything.
They didn't weigh them...it was just the going rate at the time. Not arguing with you. Just thought I would add my personal story. He is now 6 years old, 16+ hands tall, and about 1150 lbs. What a bargain! |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
I don't follow your line of reasoning. It seems to be inconsistent with basic economics, and the relationship between supply and demand. Perhaps I just misunderstood the point you were attempting to make. Whether we want to admit it or not, this uproar over slaughtering horses has actually shed light on the dirty little secret that has been festering for a long time. And that is that there are now about 100,000 unwanted horses annually in the United States. That's per year. Since the slaughterhouses shut down in the U.S. in 2007, that's about 400,000 unwanted horses. Others have posted comments about the apparent under-handed way the recent legislation was changed to allow for funding federal inspections, which then removed the practical reason the slaughterhouses were closed here in 2007. Conspiracy theories abound, fueled by suspicions about money and the profits that can be made slaughtering horses. I propose that the real motivation to change the restrictive law was to bend to the pressure that the states were probably bringing to bear on the feds. The states are not in a financial position to deal with 100,000 unwanted horses a year. Read the article written a year ago for a fairly balanced overview of this problem: http://sidelinesnews.com/blogs/la.../for-the-love-of-horses-pt-1.html . The article is not totally accurate as Dr. Temple Grandin has since disassociated herself from the United Horsemen organization, which is depicted to be a viable solution to this problem in the article. The article does mention what may turn out to be the most significant obstacle facing slaughterhouses in the U.S. and that is the drug residue in horses from North America. We tend to manage our horses very intensively with bute, chemical de-wormers, vaccinations, etc. Many of these products are clearly labeled to be not given to horses used for human consumption. The EU countries will probably eventually impose a ban on importing horsemeat from the U.S., if the industry gets up and running again here. I suppose that eventually, Dr. Temple Grandin may get involved in a practical solution to this problem. And meanwhile, I suppose that our baby boomer generation, and it's passion for realizing a dream, will continue to produce 100,000 unwanted horses every year. In the infamous words of Pogo, "We have met the enemy...and he is us." |
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| ErinR76 |
Mandy'smarty said: "Others have posted comments about the apparent under-handed way the recent legislation was changed to allow for funding federal inspections, which then removed the practical reason the slaughterhouses were closed here in 2007. Conspiracy theories abound, fueled by suspicions about money and the profits that can be made slaughtering horses. I propose that the real motivation to change the restrictive law was to bend to the pressure that the states were probably bringing to bear on the feds. The states are not in a financial position to deal with 100,000 unwanted horses a year."
I agree with this viewpoint. I wrote this in a pm but I want to also share my thoughts here: If people would just let things level out (which will take years as the current overpopulation of horse lives out their lives), and let the supply fall to meet current demand, things would level out. Or, perhaps there would be benefit to having a stipulation to the reintroduction to slaughter, say, it is legal for another one year, and then is made totally illegal, so that the current economic and logistical problems of too many horses can be dealt with WITHOUT ENCOURAGING the further creation of more horses to be thrown away. I just refuse to allow myself to think that business as usual, ie, the continued creation, use AND ABUSE of living creatures on this planet is acceptable. What if aliens came down to this planet and DID TO US WHAT WE AS HUMANS DO TO OUR ANIMALS? I understand the propensity of those who consider themselves 'realists' and want to deal with the immediate situation at hand, really I do. But I will be honest and say that I wholeheartedly personally disagree with this statement which was made earlier: "but we also have to accept the fact that that just isn't going to happen for a lot of horses out there." No, I don't have to accept it and I'll die trying to work towards a world where all living creatures are treated with the same respect we think we deserve to be treated with,...the same rights. |
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| becdubie |
Erin? I'm curious, not judging or looking for a fight, but do you eat meat?
Do you wear leather shoes, coats? |
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| ErinR76 |
I have altered my lifestyle so as to eliminate supporting industries which are abusive to animals. As of this moment I do still eat local grassfed and locally slaughtered meat about once a week, I get my milk from cows I know, and I buy eggs from my neighbor who has chickens in her backyard. It is one of my goals to eliminate all animal products which result in a bad deal for the animal. I am changing a lot in recent years and my thoughts and viewpoints have been changing pretty rapidly as of late. I can't say that every action is currently perfectly in line with my ideals; however I am getting there. If I awoke tomorrow and the world had quit offering animal products to wear and eat, I would gladly rejoice. I do own a saddle made out of leather I've had for a while, but probably won't purchase another one made of it; my other two are synthetic. I love the idea of biothane. The leather coat I wear is synthetic 
On this particular subject that we are talking about now? I don't eat horse, have never bred an unwanted horse or sold a horse that has gone to slaughter. I have never shirked my responsibility for an animal. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone on this planet would be able to say that? How much better would it be for animals if people could be true, honest stewards? I'll feel really good about myself when I can find a truck that runs on electric, or better yet, convert my house to solar and wind. There's a lot more I do to conserve and reduce my impact, but I'm not patting myself on the back too much yet. I won't be happy until my existence is minimal impact. I'd love to totally quit supporting the people that are ruining the earth and its creatures. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I know some have asked about Temple's opinion on horse slaughter. This is her most recent paper, published before this law was passed, but such as is, here it is. I think it's important to remember that first, and foremost, she is a scientist. She also takes all the emotion out of it. Just the facts.
http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html What I see here (in this thread) are two worlds. One is ideal - in an ideal world all horses would be born into forever homes and live there until they die a natural death. The other is reality. Reality is that horses live in a world run by imperfect humans. In this world, the best we can do is what is best for horses in light if uncaring and selfish humans. There are some who would try to make humans perfect. There are others who accept reality. |
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| ErinR76 |
Thought I'd share these thoughts:
I guess some of us in this world have not figured out....that we create our own reality, and we can change it anytime we don't like it. |
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| ErinR76 |
I felt some of your comments deserved direct response...
"What I see here (in this thread) are two worlds. One is ideal - in an ideal world all horses would be born into forever homes and live there until they die a natural death. The other is reality. Reality is that horses live in a world run by imperfect humans. In this world, the best we can do is what is best for horses in light if uncaring and selfish humans. There are some who would try to make humans perfect. There are others who accept reality." You are right, humans are imperfect. I think that's why we are here, to learn to do better. Sure, its a hard road. No, I don't expect everything to be all better overnight. Imagine this world without people. Paradise! But the reality is, we are here and we have made quite the mess of things. Who did? We did. Who's going to fix it? Rather, who is going to have to fix it if we don't like it? Well it's not going to fix itself. I think that 'accepting reality' as if we have no possibility of changing it, is ridiculous, since we got ourselves into the situation we are in currently, by all our former and current decisions and thoughts. And, wherever our thoughts can dream, we can go. So, me and my friends, we will keep trying to create a better world, while those of you who want to accept things the way they are, will continue to be part of the problem, not part of the solution, in thought or in deed. It's okay, we can hack it
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| ErinR76 |
Dang I keep thinking of stuff. On the subject of barbiturates/euthanasia and the concern for pollution...What is wrong with an X between the eyes and ears, and a bullet?? Renting backhoes is expensive enough, save yourself the vet fees, and keep the poison in the bottle where it belongs. | ||||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Erin, you know I love you, and really do appreciate where you and Sally are coming from. I don't think there is a resin on this forum who really wants horses to go to slaughter. None of us want this, it is why we go to such extremes to save all the horses we can.
There was something I said earlier that bears repeating. What we are trying to save horses from is one thing. By doing so we are condemning them to a much worse fate. If you were an average person, and your choices were: Send the horse to US slaughter auction and make $500 doing so Or Give the horse to a slaughter auction now and make nothing Or Pay $500 to euthanize and bury or haul off your horse, What would you do? What if it was a choice between spending that $500 and your kid's food? What if you lost your job and home and had no money to choose? I really do wish all people were ideal, but they aren't. What do we do to the horses we are trying to save when people still are people? The past seven years have shown us one thing for sure, we can't force people to care about horses. |
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| ErinR76 |
I WOULD DIG THE FRIGGIN' HOLE MYSELF (well with help from my friends and family) AND ASK MY FRIEND TO SHOOT HER.
And if things were vastly different than they are today, and food were REALLY that scarce, and there we NO vegetables I could eat, and there were NO food banks, and I had NO friends or family to help me, I'd have the horse dressed and put in my freezer. But as a general rule, and in the world's current situation, that's not a necessary course of action. Speaking for myself. I did read the Grandin report and I do agree that if all the recommendations she listed were followed, even WITH slaughter, that horses would suffer less. I'll give you that, definitely. Even though I will still pull for ideals, I can appreciate incremental improvements. Now, how can we implement some of those improvements?! |
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| ErinR76 |
Sorry, another thought. Grandin's recommendations are very revealing as to the source of most of the excess horses. I'm pretty sure that if her recommendations were carried out to a very thorough degree, most of the horses would not be going to slaughter to start with. So, I think that definitely the focus should be on implementing her recommendations. Perhaps, just as we have to pass a test to have driver's licenses, and people have to pay for licenses to hunt and fish, people could be required to attend an orientation on horse care in order to own horses? And certain per horse fees would have to be paid by racehorse owners to fund a third party organization to inspect and enforce certain standards, and to provide the retired horses until their adoption, or perhaps their retirement. Maybe you can't force people care or be humane, but you can set it up so that there is ample education, and transparency, to allow external pressure to come to bear upon those who do not provide the basics of care and well-being to their animals. Sort of letting them 'run into their own pressure..' or 'making the wrong thing difficult...' | ||||||
| sebocat |
Nice thought, but it would be impossible to fun, implement and enforce. Secretly, I was pleased the bill passed. Not because I condone eating horses, or killing them, but because it is a more humane end than the starvation and neglect a horse can face when he is outgrown, when something happens to his people, when he develops incurable lamenesses, or when his people simply cant do it anymore. Its unrealistic to expect folks to not breed. Quality or not, people have the right to breed what they want. Its not responsible, but they have the right. They also have the right to pump out human children while they are receiving welfare and cant support the ones they have.....but thats a different post. The point is, folks are still going to breed irresponsibly wether the market is there or not. Very, very few people send a horse down this road because they want to. Very, very few of us can honestly say "I'll have him until the bitter end" and mean it. But I'd send my horse to slaughter before I let my horse starve. (I'd actually put him down myself) I am a realist also, and it killed me that Bob (all 2000 lbs of him) was wasted in a landfill. He had already been pumped too full of drugs to be salvageable as meat. That would have been a lot of meat for the local dog rescue and zoo. |
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| appellativo |
I think it would be absolutely tragic if nobody bred anymore. Goodbye, specialized breeds of the world. Rather, my arguement is that people should continue to hold an ideal in their mind, and try to educate people into the benefits of holding to that ideal. And yes, I agree that it is more humane to end the life of a horse if it cannot be properly cared for. I too have told myself that if it came down to it, and I could not keep my horse, and she would likely end up in a slaughter venue, that I'd put her down myself. As it is, if I ever can't afford her, she will be long term leased to someone I know like a friend (one of which has already said, if you ever sell your horse, I want her!) or a nearby therapeutic riding center.
You are right about freedom of choice and rights, and I don't think people should be governed out of every inch of their freedoms. However, I still hold to the principle of educating and caring enough about people and horses to try to get the right thing done. Do we have a double standard here on It's About The Horse forum, where its okay to abandon a principle to justify the end? Just askin'. I think its possible to be somewhat of a realist along the way while still attempting to apply the principles and work toward the ideals. I think that's what we are doing, those of us who feel horses have the right to be cared for natural and happy, but still ride our horses. A happy medium where both parties needs are met and everyone can live with the way things are happily. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Carol wrote:
It may sound contradictory to ask this, but when you make it legal so that it can be regulated by the government, haven't you given up on the idea that individual people will act responsibly? When it was made illegal, the law took away(in this country anyway) the easier option of getting rid of unwanted horses at slaughter houses. When slaughter is illegal, that's when people are given the opportunity to prove that they will treat horses with the respect that some of us think they deserve, kind of like the ideal end of the spectrum that Erin has talked about(I think. I don't want to put words in her mouth). Making it legal now indicates that we have failed, doesn't it? But, at best, we're probably only talking about a marginal difference between the two. Whether it's legal or illegal people can be counted on to find ways to make victims out of horses. It's all about human behavior. Theoretically, man could eliminate this problem altogether if he(everyone) just acted responsibly beginning with responsible breeding. The ultimate reality is that it's all about human behavior, not about what will happen to horses. The way horses are treated is just an indication, or a symptom, of human behavior. I'm kind of stating the obvious, probably, but I think that it's important to not lose sight of that perspective. This is all about us as a species regardless of, or maybe in spite of, the written law. It's about much more than just whether horses are treated with dignity and respect. And it seems that we fail as a species, to some degree, whether horse slaughter is legal or illegal. Legal, or illegal? That's not really the important part of the discussion, is it? Or is it? Just asking because I tend to believe that perspective is everything. Larry |
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| Cracklinrose |
I love Larry's post. It gets right down to the real problem. I don't think that a lot of human behavior will change without help. People keep doing the same thing over and over, even if it doesn't work, because that is how it's always been done. I think we have become desensitized to a lot of things that just aren't right. That is how I feel about this subject. There have been a lot of valid points made by everyone here but in my gut...I know it is not right! I was hoping when I initially started this post that there would be a lot of alternative ideas posted here. I never thought that so many believed that the old way was the best way and that we should just be happy to go back to the way it was. It was not good then and it won't be good now. There has to be another way. I don't have the answer, but if enough people have open minds to discuss ideas, then someone may come up with some solutions. |
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| becdubie |
I'm with you there....I have also alterted what meat products I eat as well, we got our own chickes for eggs. But I tell you the price of things almost forces one to purchase from the masses.... Ok sorry to get off topic, but I was curious. Horse meat...no I'll never eat it...and I seriously doubt it will be on the average american's kitchen table any time soon. |
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| becdubie |
I sort of like the idea of having a slaughter plant as an option.
In my current situation, I would put my horse down myself (terminal, injured, old) with a bullet, and bury it on my land. If I didn't have this option, I would like the option to haul it to a slaughter plant myself, in my own horse trailer and have it put down and USED. I want all my useable body parts recycled when I die. Side note. My parents ran a custom meat packing plant for many years (it's under different ownership now). They had a complete operation from kill floor to sales floor. All the meat was local grass fed whenever possible. Cows/Buffalo/pigs are all processed there. One animal at a time came in the kill floor...the rest were out in the corrals eating, drinking, lazing around. The animals go through no stress at all, it was quite and peaceful...(yes peaceful) ONe bullet....DONE. This is the situation I would hope they could set up for horses. The business is a medium size plant that puts out a quality product. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Shelley, I think the solutions you seek wouldn't fly. To stop the overbreeding of horses we'd have to have regulations, and there is no way to do this with any fairness. Who can breed how many of what bloodlines? I can tell that THAT would not fly, even within a breed, where people have their own tastes on what constitutes "quality"...and I read arguments about that every day.
Who would decide that a potentially winning race horse should be bred before a child-safe pony? The government? The government isn't too popular now. Would this help? You should see breeders with their war against the Humane Society, because the HSUS wants to limit breeding of dogs and cats. We don't control the breeding of ourselves at all, or dogs and cats....I certainly don't see us controlling the breeding of horses. |
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| ErinR76 |
There's a really good long comment on this issue on this page, third or fourth or something from the top:
http://www.horseconscious.com/to-legalise-horse-slaughter-or-not.html it begins like this: With respect, I beg you to inform and educate yourself before you automatically forward the information you receive about the recent changes regarding the horse slaughter issues. Well-meaningly but unwittingly spreading misinformation, |
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| merle |
In NC it is against the law to shoot a horse. If a person has to put a horse down, but cannot afford the vet bill and disposal fee (in some counties in NC it is against the law to bury a horse) what are they to do? They cannot shoot it, they cannot bury it - what do they do? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
It's against the law here to bury your horse..or dog...or cat.... there is a landfill for them. Not that any of MINE are in it. They somehow, magically, ended up under lilac bushes and pine trees.
That was a good excerpt Erin. It is a complex issue and definitely not as simple as "don't do it!"...I would be interested in how many horses each year homes ARE found for, from rescues and the BLM. Let's not forget that some people actually DO go to the auctions and rescue directly from there. But then, none of those horses are figured in the 130,000 number that goes over the border either. I feel for those of you just learning this lesson...reality sucks. Believe me, there was a time I was against horse slaughter too. |
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| ErinR76 |
Hmmm. that's a weird law. I suppose there might be a good reason for it, but I'd have to research it first, then if it was a matter of 'dumb law,' Id just go ahead and shoot the horse, burying it properly. I'm sorry, but if a law says I can't shoot my horse, I have to pay a vet $300 to put it down for me, and obviously the law ignores the harmful issue of poisoning the surrounding land and groundwater, then it's a dumb law and doesn't deserve to be followed.
Here's the NC Coop extension guide to disposal. You can do it by the book, or you can think for yourself and do what you need to do, hopefully using brain cells and common sense. http://www.extension.org/pages/20164/horse-disposal-options |
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| Cracklinrose |
I don't think telling breeders what they can and can't do would work either. But if they are making money on breeding horses then they should be paying some sort of "social security" for each horse they bring into this world. Whether it is when they sell them or breed them or in the form of a license. They just shouldn't be allowed to just freely breed and contribute to this problem without paying something. Maybe the large breeders do...I don't know. If I had a mare and bred her, I could then sell the foal. Pocket the money and that would be it. I think I should have had to pay either a selling fee or something that could go into some sort of fund for the expenses that these type of horses usually end up costing someone down the line. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I like that idea Shelley. I thought of it in a conversation some time ago about OTTB's, that their first winnings should pay for their retirement and THEN pay the profit for the owner and trainer.
It doesn't work with dogs and cats, and I even figured out a way to help. I've written umpteen letters and never had this idea adopted. If they charged $50 to licence a breeding (anything unfixed) animal, and only $5 to license one that is fixed, a lot more people would see the value in fixing their pets. Since horses are not licensed I don't know how to work this, but perhaps a tax on stallions that is passed on to foals, and stays with that horse. It automatically puts a value on each foal and would stop a lot of unnecessary breeding. |
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| thelmanelle |
That's really interesting that it would be against the law to shoot a horse when we had no choice with my horse Lights due to the fact that the answering service had no clue a broken leg or colic was an emergency...therefore, call back when the office is open in 30 mins.
I think that is a very stupid law...if a horse or any animal is suffering and you can't get it help...help it by stopping the suffering. Deer are wild and get caught jumping barber wire fencing and have to be shot, why can't a horse have mercy from a broken leg, starvation, etc. I don't like that one is starving, but I don't like that folks can't feed them, either. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I would shoot a horse under those circumstances too. I think here the only time the law would apply has to do with proximity to other buildings. My neighbors shot one of theirs who got caught in a fence and broke its leg. It is illegal to discharge a firearm in many cities and residential areas.
The burial rule has to do with ground water contamination. |
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| merle |
A friend of mine had his horse get out of the pasture in the middle of the night. A car hit the horse around around 2 am, broke both back legs, the vet did not arrive until 6 am. Horse had to wait in pain FOUR HOURS for the vet to arrive to be able to put the horse down. That happened about two years ago in Chatham County NC. I agree, it is a very stupid law. |
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| merle |
This is from the above webpage;
Some counties in NC have outlawed burying a horse. Some allow it others not. I don't think not following the law because it is a dumb law is a legitimate answer to the question I asked about what a person should do if they cannot afford vet bill and disposal bill. My vet has proposed euthanasia clinics. Free or very low cost clinics in which horses could be euthanized and disposed of. I think that would be a potential answer, but most people I mention it to are appalled by the idea. The idea is morbid (pun intended) but unfortunately there is a need for it. |
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| ErinR76 |
Ok Merle, I told you honestly what I would do, and you did not like my answer; so, not being snarky, what is YOUR solution? Pretend you are actually in that situation; what WOULD you do? You would do SOMETHING, no doubt. What would it be? It is one thing to argue rhetorically about the problem. But when it comes down to if it really happened, some sort of action would be needed. And undoubtedly, some sort of action would be taken. What would it be? Sit on your thumbs and do nothing? What would you do?
I am aware of a few euthanasia clinics that have been done, and people were lining up. It is a bit morose, but clearly is a needed service, and I think it is a good idea. |
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| merle |
I know your not being snarky, I think we're having a discussion about different viewpoints - no offense taken and definitely not meaning to be offensive. 
If I had to put a horse down and could not afford the vet bill/disposal fee, I KNOW I could NOT shot the horse myself. I just know I couldn't, I've shot animals before and am not going there again, just not going to do it. If absolutely necessary I could find some one to do it for me, but I think thats really dispicable of myself. If I cannot do it, how can I let some else do it? I have a great relationship with my vet, I'd work out a trade of some sort - I'd do whatever job he needed me to do in order to work off the debt of having the horse euthanized. I live adjacent to a county in which you can legally bury a horse. I'd trailer the horse to a friends place (lots of land), have the vet come out (I'd work off the debt) then bury the horse. I'm fortunate, I have a great vet and the most wonderful amazing friends that would help me (friends with big machine for digging). And, I have tractor with attachments, I could dig a good sized hole myself. But, my question was not so much what I would do or what you would do, but the general question of what do people do who have a horse they need to do some thing with but cannot afford the vet bill and disposal fee. I agree, euthanasia clinics would be a viable option. My question is posed not so much to find one answer, but to trigger more thought, more discussion etc... |
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| ErinR76 |
Oh good I'm glad we understand each other on the no snarkiness thing
My point in asking you what you specifically would do, is that another person in the situation that you asked about, would also make a decision and take some sort of action to take care of the problem. So really there is nothing to worry about
Elsewhere, I came across this blurb on slaughter and thought I'd share. wouldn't it be great if what she recommends below could be put into practice. Truth About Canadian Horse Slaughter - Dr. Temple Grandin http://youtu.be/_orfuh2mt0s Dr. Temple Grandin. "I'm sick and tried, I go into a plant, I don't care what species. Everything is working fine while I'm there, and then, as soon as I am away, someone gets in there with a video camera, all kinds of bad stuff going on in there. I get really, really angry about that." Dr. Temple Grandin conducted a full audit on the Canadian Slaughter plant and concluded that it FAILED to fo...llow the guidelines for humane slaughter. Horse were chained up, hoisted and slaughtered while still alert and conscious. Dr. Temple Grandin "Someone wants me to approve a plant, any kind of plant, they better put in video auditing, that is audited third party, that can tuned in at anytime, so they never know when they are watching, and they can do the scoring over the internet." |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Temple Grandin wrote:
Larry |
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| ErinR76 |
Now that funding to inspect them has been approved, thus reopening the possibility of plants opening and being built, it is a good idea and use of funds to set up these cameras and hire a third party viewing company to monitor and evaluate them. I hope that it is done this way, if it is in fact to come to pass. | ||||||
| ztmag |
This is what I was talking about earlier. We can't change the laws in Mexico or Canada, but we can campaign for a law in America that has to do with video monitoring of slaughterhouses to ensure humane conditions.
Every time I hear about euthanasia clinics, I think "what a waste!" When I had to put my horse down, he went to the dump. His body rotted away with those of whatever other animals that were there and that still haunts me. I would much rather have known he went to a zoo to feed animals or to Africa to feed starving people. He had too many drugs in him to make that happen, but if it had been an alternative, I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Everybody thinks humane euthanasia is such a great thing, but I say it's a waste! (And just for the record--no snarkiness here either, just my own humble opinions) |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I agree with you Sharon. Yes, they could have a vet's Farm Call at the local dump and split the cost between owners, and spare the cost of hauling the horse away. I don't know about the rest of you, but THAT IDEA makes me sick. | ||||||
| ErinR76 |
What idea do you LIKE then?!
We can't bury them, it contaminates the groundwater. We can't feed them to animals or people, they have too many wormers vaccines, etc chemicals in their flesh. What's the solution? Short of letting horses live wild, with no modern management so no chemicals? Then, letting them get hunted to extinction by big business??! Arg! Momentary moment of and frustration, cynicism and loss of hope, sorry. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Cremation?
Larry |
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| ElaineW |
in our area cremation is 500.00+ | ||||||
| coveredbridgefarm |
That's not that much more than hiring someone to dig a grave. It sounds like a possible option for some people, or maybe even most people.
Larry |
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| ElaineW |
It's gotta be different in other areas..
When i put Jet down last may it cost me 140 for vet,, and 150 for the grave. But I live in the country and I know people with backhoes. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Erin, the idea I like is the bolt gun and salvage the meat. I am a naturalist. I think it is a vain sin to bury 130,000 horses a year and waste all that nature (or God) intended to go to other animals as food. It is unfair to use millions of acres of farm land that COULD feed deer, elk, bison...but instead feeds horses, and then bury the meat. Even if the meat is shipped to the Arctic and fed to the starving polar bears...it would be more in line with what nature intended.
Have you ever seen an animal starve to death? How about a person? It happens every day. |
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| ErinR76 |
Carol that is a preferable idea. I even considered leaving the horse out for the vultures and coyotes to pick at. Sort of morbid and almost unbearable considering the emotional attachment to the horse, but I don't think one who understand spirituality and nature could not overcome those issues. The animals spirit is gone, the body is useless not joined with the spirit,...why not let nature take its course? So in a nutshell I agree that if leaving a decomposing corpse near the forest edge would not mean some sort of health risk (I need to research that one), is a good option... | ||||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I live in the country and THAT is the most usual way of 'disposal' of dead calves and cows, and horses if the people can 'get away with it.' I have a friend in Canada who does that with her dead horses, hauls them up into the timber.
I think it depends what kind of carnivores you'd attract and what the 'load' would be in your area IF it became a problem or not. Definitely not a good idea if your water table is high and your well near. I couldn't do it here, but WOULD do it if there was a way. I'd much rather my horse die here and then be hauled off to feed zoo animals or something useful. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Larry |
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| ErinR76 |
Well, you could have them dig you a tank while you're at it! or move some of that old soggy organic matter from around your barn and add in some improved footing.... (shrug) | ||||||
| ElaineW |
I personally know people with this kind of equipment... Now my friends didn't and they paid right at 500.00 for their grave.. My friend gave me a deal. |
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| ErinR76 |
Here's part two on a blog I subscribe to (by the way, the author of this blog is the NEW Fugly Horse of the Day blogger...the other gal moved on to greener pastures I guess. Anyhow, there is a video on here that is a British video designed to be anti-slaughter, however, I have to see the irony that the way the horses are slaughtered in this video OUGHT to be how it is done in the U.S., such is our record of horse slaughter. Check it out.
Excerpt: "This is not to say that we find horse slaughter inherently evil; we simply feel the whole North American slaughter process requires a drastic overhaul. The following video is from an abattoir in Britain. Ironically enough, it’s meant to be anti-slaughter! "However, if you ignore the propaganda and watch the actual process, you’ll see horses being led individually into a room the size of a large box stall and then killed with a single bullet. There are no panicking animals and no missed shots. It’s not pleasant to watch, but nothing screams inhumane either. It is a hell of a lot more expensive to run…" http://snarkyrider.com/2011/12/14/supply-and-demand-part-2/ |
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| ErinR76 |
...and part three. Interesting stats tables on the number of horses slaughtered in the last several years, and the supply/demand for horse meat! Incriminating for the arguements for using slaughter as a method to dispose of unwanted horses versus actually doing something about the supply.
http://snarkyrider.com/2011/12/19/supply-and-demand-part-3/ |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Erin, I know reducing the supply of unwanted horses is the ultimate solution, but I don't think there is any real impetus to actually DO it. I think many breeders have reduced the number of horses bred and still others have gone out of business - basic supply and demand. But the adjustment to a smaller horse market is a slow and painful one with horses caught in the middle. And it won't work UNLESS/UNTIL the government regulates the number of horses bred - and that won't happen. People won't stand for it.
It has not worked with dogs and cats and it will not work with horses. I think politicians were willing to go along with an emotional heart-felt piece of regulation before. I don't think it will happen again. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they soon require the euthanasia - or shipment to slaughter - of the BLM unadopted mustangs. We humans haven't come to terms with a finite planet yet, but we have figured out that we have finite financial resources. When a politician has to choose between feeding 20,000 horses nobody wants and a school lunch program or a Defense program that will employ people with families, I can tell you who will loose. Now, I wouldn't lie to you and tell you that I prefer those horses to a lot of politicians  but, they don't feel like I do..and they are the ones with the money.
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| ErinR76 |
this is from FHOTD blog. I thought both viewpoints were interesting. The last post reminded me that I am still technically a hypocrite because I do still eat meat (even if it is locally raised grass fed and 'humanely' as possible killed).
128 Comments » | Add a comment Halter Horses -Yummy? Dec 27 2011 Tags: FHOTD, Fugly Blog, Horse Slaughter, news stories And now for our third, and final, post on horse slaughter. We have a real treat for you today! These two guest bloggers have widely different approaches – one is very pro-slaughter, while the other one is very against, and yet they both start off with the same thought: Why are horses treated differently than other animals? They are livestock after all… ———- I fully support horse slaughter. Horses are livestock. They are marvelous, wonderful animals, but they don’t shit rainbows and they don’t fart butterflies. They are animals. The first thing I’m going to address is the ridiculous notion that it’s “okay” to slaughter other livestock, ie. cattle, chickens, pigs, goats, but for some reason, it’s NOT OKAY to slaughter horses. Anyone care to explain this to me? I’m sorry, but anyone who eats meat but is against horse slaughter is a hypocrite. Slaughter is slaughter, no matter WHAT animal is being killed. You can’t raise one form of life above others. They are all living creatures. If you’re okay eating your cheeseburger or fried chicken, then by all rights you should be okay with horse slaughter. I’m not saying anyone should be forced to eat horse, of course. I don’t eat fish. Does that mean I’m against commercial fishing or fish raising? Hell no. Eat that fish up! I just don’t like the taste of fish. But I’ll tell you one thing. I do like the taste of horse. Whoops, was that a Facebook “defriend” I just heard going off? Then we get the people who stare at your with their jaws hanging like dopes, then manage to stutter out something ridiculous. For example, I had one jackanape tell me that *I* was a hypocrite if I wouldn’t eat *my* horses. Bullshit. I keep goats. I love my goats. I am the Goat Whisperer. I prefer not to eat my pet goats. I didn’t eat my pet chickens. I wouldn’t eat my pet horses. But I sure as heck raised some meat goats, meat chickens for myself, butchered, and ate them. They were delicious. And if I had the room and set up? Sure I’d raise up a foal to eat. Yup, you heard that right. Meat = meat. [Quick note: these were originally 2 posts but we've condensed them down to one to reduce the length] If there’s one thing in the horse world that puzzles me like no other, it’s halter horses. Huge, overfed, overmuscled horses on tiny little feet, paraded around an arena and judged. Do you know what halter horses actually are, but no one wants to ADMIT? Meat. I look at these halter horses, and I’m talking about halter horses that are good for nothing but showing off with their tiny hooves and posty legs. (There are good balanced halter horses out there who go on to have successful careers being ridden.) You know what I see? I see an animal bred for fast growth, heavy muscling, stocky body. To grow up and EAT. Good for nothing else except a dinner plate. And yet, hypocrisy of all hypocrisy, the people breeding these freakish looking horses would clutch their chests in horror at the very thought. Although I have a sneaking suspicion that’s where a good many of them end up anyways. Don’t win enough ribbons at the end of a lead rope? Where else is it going to go? You can’t ride them. Very few people have the room or money for a fat pasture puff. Off to auction they go, and then on a truck to Mexico. Look halter horse people. Stop screwing around and admit what these horses are for. Open the slaughter houses back up in the United States and start eating horse meat. Then you’ll really see your market boom! Got a nice stallion that puts out fast growing fat little babies? Just think of all the money you could make in stud fees! Halter horses. Delicious. Thanks to Kristina for submitting the above guest post, you can check out her blog at http://www.knsfarm.blogspot.com/ ———- Versus another guest post, very anti-slaughter (and pro-vegan!) ———- What I’ve written might anger you but read my post in its entirety because this comes from a place of truth and compassion for all sentient beings. First of all, since you’re on this site I’m sure you consider yourself an animal lover, maybe even an animal activist. But you’re probably not and instead you’re probably a hypocrite. And what makes you a hypocrite is while you treat your horses and household pets humanely you support an industry which crams animals into cages for their entire lives and pays factory workers to slaughter and abuse what our society deems as food. And what makes this such an atrocity is that our diet has no need for animal protein but instead we are healthier by not eating animals and this is a proven fact. This includes meat, dairy and eggs. Now if you’re a reader and your vegan, then I applaud you! But if you’re not and you consider yourself a lover of animals then you really need to dig deep and think about the choices you make. If you know the truth that our diet doesn’t require any animal products and you continue to eat animals from here on out then you’re doing it for selfish reasons, which is what we’re all here fighting against in the first place. You might be thinking that horses, dogs and cats are different then cattle, chicken, fish, etc. But are they? All sentient beings have hearts that pump blood and oxygen like ours; they all eat, breathe, defecate and procreate. What makes you think that while all of their organs function as ours do, that their brain doesn’t? They all feel pain as we do, they value their lives and freedom like we do, they express love for their offspring like we do. What makes us so different and what gives us the right to oppress them? No animal should suffer and die for my food because I have no necessity to eat them. Today slavery of humans is looked at as horrible but do you think that back then many of the slave owners looked at those slaves as equals? Do you think that today we have the same problem with animals? The truth is that while we protect our horses and household pets we are speciesists. We discriminate between species and treat some like kings while we torture and kill others. Unless we wake up and realize this we are still contributing to the problem. Our society should protect the weakest and most vulnerable but while we call ourselves animal lovers we are not. This isn’t just about eating animals and abusing animals; it is how we see the animals. Are they property? Because if they are property then as their owner we have the right to treat them as we wish and people will always abuse them. But I know that all of you feel differently, so if they aren’t property what are they? And if we want people to treat horses, dogs and cats as property then what right do we have to treat other animals as property Until “animal lovers” start to see animals as individuals we can’t get anywhere. Animals are not our property and that is the bottom line. So what does this have to do with the Fugly blog? This way of looking at all animals expands into what we make our horses do and how we treat them. At the root of looking for fair treatment of horses is the foundation of compassion for all living beings and unless we address this problem at our core we won’t make change. I also think that as long as we as humans live selfishly without regard for the consequences of our actions then there will always be abuse. We can’t fight for the well-being of the animals we love unless we fight for the well-being of all. This means compassion from everything from our own horses, to livestock to children that aren’t ours. Do you really think we could find an end to horse slaughter if we ourselves still support the slaughter of other animals? Because if we show compassion only toward certain species how can we hold others accountable for not showing compassion towards the species we prefer? |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Erin, those are all interesting views. Let's look at them one at a time.
The first one seems to state that if you use one species for meat, then you have no right to exclude any species from the meat diet. Where is that written? Do we not have the right to place one or more one species on the no-eat list because they have historically shared a special place with our own species? Does this make us all hypocrits for excluding our own species? I don't think we want to give up the right to pick and choose which species we choose to eat. Some day some reigning authority might come along and take that literally and legalize cannibalism. If you want to look at this issue selfishly, and that poster is obviously doing that because he/she likes horse meat, then it might not be a bad idea to keep a few species between us and the slaughter houses, kind of as a buffer zone. The second one suggests that halter horses have no value unless they're also used for riding and presumably other forms of work. This person who is claiming that horse slaughter should be legalized is the same person who seems(to me) to be claiming that horses are only good for the work they can perform. There may be a way to justify making horse meat legal but I don't think that's it, not among horse lovers anyway. There is just more to horses than that. This argument is dismissed for lack of substance. And the third one:
Larry |
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| ErinR76 |
Yep, I did say they were interesting! I didn't endorse either one 100% or say they were 'right' either
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
When I read posts like those first two, I have to wonder if the poster(s) really feel that way or if they are just posting what they are saying to get a rise out of people. | ||||||
| ErinR76 |
In the article I link below, I'm mostly posting it for the comments that were made to the article, not the article itself. Many intelligent people (after the first two) weigh in and bring up some very interesting points in their comments.
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/201...er-to-the-editor-american-horses/ |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Just as a horse is the human's mirror, so too is the discussion of horse slaughter a mirror of mankind collectively. Collectively confused and Collectively conflicted.
Larry |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Interesting to read.
These arguments started long before they closed the U.S. plants (which were not illegal). The results were that more/less the same number of U.S. horses were slaughtered as before the plants were closed, they just traveled farther, and in the case of Mexico, they were killed in a much more inhumane manner. Additionally, with the worsening economy, horses have been abandoned in record numbers, neglected and taken out and shot. Rescues and shelters are overflowing. I think THIS is what those who have fought to reopen the plants are trying to stop. To generalize and say that ALL the proponents of reopening the plants are doing so to save money or make money are simply wrong. There really are two things going on...first, to some people their horses are pets and they WILL take care of their horse humanely regardless of what the law says. The second group considers horses "livestock" and closing the plants does not make them care more about their horses - obviously. We haven't saved horses from anything.. |
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| ErinR76 |
I like that quote that says you can't solve the problem with the same thinking that caused it. I'm pretty sure since man screwed _____ up, (fill in any problem in the blank) we won't be able to fix it until we just learn to step back and quit meddling. You know, like the indians and aboriginals do...they live in understanding and balance with nature. Modern man has no clue how to do this. | ||||||
| coveredbridgefarm |
Larry |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Not just that, but you see now, man thinks he has a divine imperative to do whatever he wants. We have already obliterated thousands of God's creatures and polluted 2/3 the potable water on the planet. Yet instead of change our ways, most people want to shoot the scientists who are shouting the alarm. | ||||||
| coveredbridgefarm |
Carol wrote:
Larry |
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| ErinR76 |
There really are two camps, though. There are the majority (by what percentage is argueable) who are as you say, but there is a growing minority who understands the deep problems we've created and who long for improvements. I just watched two videos that showed the future of free energy (I'll link these vids below) with working prototypes, and another one where grandmothers in third world countries are solarizing their villiages (solar power) and teaching others how to do the same. Progress is being made...time will tell if it's fast enough...
http://www.wimp.com/barefootmovement/ http://www.wimp.com/freeenergy/ http://www.wimp.com/waterworld/ |