| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Horse Gypsy |
How little does it take?I was watching the Tom Dorrance benefit with Ray Hunt from 2001-- and something that Ray was talking about in the Horsemanship part of that is how little does it take. I think that is something that is so key to this style of horsemanship. How little does it take to go from trot to walk to stop to back up? It seems like even on the tape people were more concerned with getting it done now with more-- than a little later with less-- but Ray was saying that your don't have to get it done today-- we are setting it up to be better tomorrow.Pat is one there-- I was glad to see him -- and he was one of the better riders in my mind-- but I think all you have to do is ask him how good he is-- and that sort of bothers me-- and I think it bothered Ray a little also. PAt seemed to be a little self conscious during the colt starting part-- can't blame him- being surrounded by the best in the business and a whole crowd. But Ray was saying all your should have to do is think walk or trot or stop and your horse should do that-- Something Karen R talks of also. IT takes some time to set that up, as we know!! |
||||
| Thunder Hollow |
|||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Why is this subject limited to this forum? I have had many clinicians, Larry comes to mind, as does Margaret, have me explore the same thing...seeing how softly I could ask, from how far away, etc. | ||||
| cheerios |
Re: How little does it take?Good topic, Horse Gypsy.
I have not watched the Tom Dorrance benefit, but would like to sometime. I really like the quote above. It really isn't about what you get the horse to do, but how you go about doing it and teaching it. If we move too fast or with too much pressure, we often end up stuck with problems later. I recently watched the In A Whisper DVD, which I was fairly disgusted by. (wrote about it on my blog here) Yes they were able to start the colts in under 3 hours and ride them at a w/t/c and through an obstacle course. But there was also a lot of pressure, a lot of resistance and 3 very unhappy looking horses. If we start with a solid foundation and softness, it takes more time in the beginning, but pays off in the end. If we rush the beginning or are task oriented and are "more concerned with getting it done now with more," I think we often get compliant horses that lack feel and softness. |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
I think something I was missing by just following Parelli-- and this may just be me-- is keeping everything soft-- how soft can it be. I think in some ways the table is turned and the horse offers us the feel we offer them-- so if we consistently use more to get less than our horse ends up training us to do more and get a little.. Where as if we just set it up and wait and stay soft the horse learns to stay soft- and then you can speed it up when everything has fallen into the right place.
I am really going through a whole lot of stuff with my TB mare-- she was pretty old when I started her-- my vet thinks 7- and the lady she came from says 9-- and so she has some things going on that have been going on for a long time-- so she fights me a little more than I would like--IT is like she is looking for the comfortable place-- but she doesn't yet trust me that I can help her find it-- but I have been making a point to end when things are going a lot better. But clearly going to a higher phase--especially with a dominant mare like her- just isn't going to work-- Set it up and wait does work and we are both happy-- The other thing is that I am not in a rush to get some level thing done anymore-- so I don't care how long it takes-- because when she does feel good- it feels great- she has quite a spring to her step when she wants! |
||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Is it OK to talk about other methods here? If not, I'll start the same topic in the General Chat area.
In Parelli Level 3 a big challenge is to see how soft you can be, how far away you can be, etc. This has really helped my RBI, and helped ME become much better, because I have learned how soft I can be with all my horses. A big eye opener. |
||||
| cheerios |
I think it's okay. 
|
||||
| cheerios |
Nicely put. I've started exploring this idea since starting to follow some of the ideas of Alexandra Kurland and Mark Rashid. Mark Rashid often talks in his books of recognizing the smallest Try. For instance, when the object is to get the horse to back up, we often wait to release until the horse backs up, which can sometimes take quite a bit of pressure. Another approach would be to release the pressure when the horse makes any effort, even just the slightest shift of his weight backwards. Then, we can gradually build on this, asking with the same soft pressure for more and more of a weight shift until the horse takes a step. Then this can build to two steps, then three, and so on. If we reward the smallest try, there is often little need for escalating pressure and phases. Alexandra Kurland often advocates pressure as information, rather than pressure that is used through fear, force or intimidation. If we apply a tiny bit of pressure and wait, the horse usually gives some sort of response. If we reward this response by releasing the pressure (and, in the case of alex's clicker training, delivering a click and a treat), then we can gradually shape the response until we are getting what we want from just a tiny bit of pressure. Part of this is being able to read the horse well and be able to recognize the subtle efforts or tiny tries that the horse might be offering. The horse is usually trying to figure out what to do right. If he's unresponsive or non-compliant it's often because he doesn't understand what we're asking or because last time when he tried to respond he ended up with some sort of negative consequence. By rewarding little efforts, I can get high quality behavior and softness and never have to go above small amounts of pressure. Or at least, that's the goal I strive for. |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
I don't get why we would want to wait until level 3 to be soft-- It seems it should start from the first ride on. I think if you offer horses a soft feel from the start you never have to get too effective--but it may take more time. I know that is one thing this TB mare is teaching me-- because if I would have increased pressure from day one every time things were not happening I surely would have gotten bucked off by now. She was fresh as all heck today-- and she thinks about bucking people off as an option-- I think this is the first horse I have experienced that really thinks about bucking off people-- I know it has worked for her before-LOL! But I don't want to go there with her- at all- so I keep it soft and slow. I am leaning toward a lot of that being that she needs her teeth done, and may have some physical discomfort also-- I wish I could ride her treeless to see if that could help-- but she is so narrow-- and with the tendency to buck I put a big saddle on her, but I don't get any dry spots or messed up hair- so who knows what her deal is. She has the druthers -- to quote Dave Ellis-- she would druther be doing something else. |
||||
| Pyrgirl |
My experience with Parelli is that "how little does it take" was a big part of every clinic and/or lesson. Year after year. Definitely something we were repeatedly challenged with. As for including the "how little" aspect in level one - that's where the program is for the human. At that early level, the human is just learning "the moves" and can't really be soft and refined. All the motions are fairly large and exaggerated so the human can learn them. That's yet another reason why you don't want the human stuck in level one for very long- they are all shouting at their horse and making them dull at that stage. Just my opinion and experience. |
||||
| Thunder Hollow |
|||||
| happycat |
|
||||
| kristie |
__ | ||||
| whisperingwindfarms |
Cued right on time . . . I started re-reading Think Harmony With Horses again last night. This time I was struck by what's actually in the title. The title says it ALL. Break it down, separate it and then re-combine it. The title still says it all. Ray Hunt was a genius. |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
kristie wrote
I think that in some ways this is where time can come in. You could get really rough and some sort of result now, or you can set it up and wait-- you staying soft and wait for the horse to become soft. I know that I have a habit of getting too firm too quickly-- and I watch my kids do the same thing-- that is a big wake up call-. Teaching kids is pretty interesting-- they do what you do. My TB mare sort of throws little fits-- tosses her head-- and says " I don't want to do this with you" and I could pull on her yank her HQ around and get control of her-- but that doesn't make her exuberant. She gets exuberant when I just ignor the little fits, and just wait for her to come into me and my aids-- then it feels better for both of us. |
||||
| marsha lee |
I have a question. This morning I backed up my husband's LBE gelding with my hand on his chest. He resisted me so I pressed harder until he moved, and then I released. Since he only backed 1 step and was still in my way I did it again - but only needed a light touch to get him to back the second time.
So my question is this, should I have just maintained light pressure the first time and waited to see if Bailee would move? Is this what you mean by staying soft until the horse figures it out and gives me what I'm asking? And then what if he ignores my request? I want to be a lead mare, not a boss mare, but I do need him to move out of my space when I ask. |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
This is sort of line between this particular style of horsemanship-- and all the other methods. To be really soft and set it up and wait-- you need to be really clear on what you are doing with in yourself-- like a lead mare would be. And it is that clarity that gets the response from the horse-- not additional pressure. To be that clear is pretty hard and takes a lot of practice, and that is why so many people think to be effective you need to be more physically assertive-- I am not sure that is what Ray or Tom would say. But I have seen Ray get firm -- but really only with a young un started horse-- he stays pretty light with his own horses, and I think it is because he has respect. And he has respect by continually having control of the feet.
Here is a link to a leslie desmond clip on "feel" that I think explains this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgOCKzWAHFo |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
oops wrong link try this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nqzj1fFYT0&feature=related | ||||
| rotate88 |
Something fell away from my thinking about a month ago that had been like a concrete tire around my neck, and it took watching Ray and a passing comment by my instructor to make it happen.
I set it up and wait at phase one. All of the higher phases consist of the horse encountering his own pressure. I no longer put pressure on my horse. I allow her to encounter it and to make sense of it. She never fails to do so. I think maybe the real journey of horsemanship has finally begun. |
||||
| Playenatural |
Isn't it Cooolll!!! Congratulations!!! |
||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
This really needs to go on the Thresholds thread also. I think many times this wait for it to happen (hang tight) is pushed. Right now "Thresholds" are being discussed as brick walls, people let them become brick walls, and some think they are supposed to be brick walls. But they really are thresholds, meant to be crossed. I like your solution. I think it's the correct solution for a lot of horses. |
||||
| Horse Gypsy |
I think that there is something to be said about collective consciousness, because I was thinking about setting it up and waiting yesterday when I was riding. Something has changed in me in the past year that I have been looking into this style more and more and one of the things is not getting firmer but just getting clearer and more balanced in my body and having something to offer the horse-- once I have something to offer them they usually do what I want and it is easy-- IT is when we are unclear and off balance that things don't go so well-- and that is where it really bothers me especially with myself-- when I get too firm-- because it was clearly me who was off-- and somewhere in there is where you get a really responsive horse-- IT is not from being firm-- it is from dancing with your horse and being consistently light.
I think that is where a horse can run into its own pressure--and that is alright- If I have picked up a rein- just the with the weight of the rope, and then they lean the other way that is there choice-- but I am still going to wait until they decide to go with me and not away from me-- and then I am going to let go of the feel of the rope. I can't see at this point how being more firm really helps anything-- IF anything it may cause more confusion and resistance than you had to start with. |
||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
Horse Gypsy---The lightness, the feel, the being 'clear and balanced', the dancing with your horse....those are all aspects of true interactive communication with the horse. I believe that horses, as prey animals, are masters at working with energy and reading our focus and intent. I also believe that once they realize we are listening, and we have earned their trust, then the dialogue truly begins. I was achieving this dialogue with wild prey animals, including deer, moose, and wild horses, even before I began 'working' with domestic horses. | ||||
| dpeterson9 |
Lightness is the goal, persistence and consistency are the keys for me. I can wait a long time until the result I am looking for becomes Reba's idea. We took a very long time to trust each other enough to communicate well. We have a long ways to go, but now, I ask her, wait until she agrees and then we move on. The wait is getting less and less and the response is lighter and lighter. She used to stop very often and look back to her pasture where the other two were and just think "go home" thoughts, I would just wait with her, when her attention went back to me I would ask for a few steps. I was patient enough to wait, but persistent enough to keep asking and very consistent with letting her have time. It works, she is becoming very dependable and willing and we trust each other. And we ride in only the rope halter, I want to be light enough to only lift the rein when needed, and communicate with weight shift, legs and thoughts. My only goal however is a great willing trail partner, not competition or perfection in any area. |