| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Julie |
I am sorry but really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I have just seen this!!!http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/...mp;id=9944536720&e=d3fcbb104d its not rocket science - get off your arse- forget all that you have stupidly taught everyone and carry yourself - and lo - your horse will be able to lift its back. OMG I cannot believe she took this long to have a clue!!!!!! I can't believe it took so long for a so called dressage instructor to say GET OFF YOUR BUM!!! |
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| karmikacres |
And only $750 to audit... | ||||
| cokey |
And how galling for those who took the first courses that she's teaching new stuff learned from them.. Hope they get given that info free...
But is is just me, or is the horse in the second picture oddly not as engaged as it was in the first?? |
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| Julie |
no - its not engaged at all ! | ||||
| cokey |
Hmm - headset, anyone??
Given that Walter sees what is needed aid-wise solely by looking at the hindleg engagement, that's NOT what he's been teaching.. |
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| Julie |
It took him 3 years to change her appalling position ?!! This makes me angry - poor horse!!!! | ||||
| karmikacres |
Change or improve? | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I thought the Game of Contact was debuted last winter in Australia...why is this news? | ||||
| Sunny |
She left out "after 15 YEARS " with Remmer. Well, you KNEW I'd have to point that one out! 
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| Julie |
change!!! She had nothing there to improve. How many people has she taught to ride like that! uggg! | ||||
| balance |
I agree that horse "after" the games of contact looks no more engaged than before. Rather the same stressed body bound up in a different frame.
I see the glutes over the rump over compensating. So he then steps short because the glutes jam up the energy due to the fact that he can't transfer the energy effectively through the loins over the back making connection to the base of the neck. The base of the neck being tight can't then transfer energy to the poll. The poll is also below the line of impulsion and this causes the heaviness on the forehand. If this horse where let loose and allowed to move forward in order to transfer the energy effectively through the trains of his body with the correct line of impulsion you'd see a very different picture. This would also allow the horse to naturally come into contact on the bit. I also see in this horse what I do with many who get thrown backwards in the saddle and that is a stress line at the last rib. Not saying any of what I shared is right, but just what my particular eyes are seeing from this one set of photos. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
I'm curious about what you are seeing. Are you seeing tension in the abdominal muscles? And I'd like to learn more about what you mean by "thrown backwards in the saddle". What do you see happening here? |
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| Julie |
Thats being polite - she is sitting on her arse with no muscle tension at all. Its horrendous what she was doing. She has at last learnt to balance making i easier for the horse to carry her, but how about the apology to all those horses and riders which have been hurt by this method. Now she needs to learn contact comes from the back - NOT THE Front! | ||||
| balance |
To point out I'd rather see tight abdominal muscles than what I see tight in this "after" picture. When the rider is sitting back on their butt and getting pushed into the cantle of the saddle, rather than being centered and supporting their own weigh it forces all the weight over the last few ribs of the horse and puts the rider behind the motion (especially if saddled to far back for the horses back)... So you get a holding line which is also a stress line that outlines the last rib. It comes from a tight back/lumbar. It's like if you where to lift with your back rather than your knees. Hope that makes better sense. If the horse where active in their abs and correctly going through the topline you'd see the muscles more active further down from that current stress line rather than so high up (into lumbar and gluets). Abs/core lift the back, the back doesn't lift the back. Which is what it looks like that horse is trying todo lift their back with the back the best they can with blocked body trains. I'll also say the rider is looking down in the after shot and when you look down it brings both the horse and the rider behind the motion. So looks like the rider is trying her best in that saddle to get in line with the motion but still falls behind. Partly because she is tense in her arms/shoulders and focused down... among other things. On another note: Hard to truly compare the photos as the horse is in different phases of the stride. If you want to get technical and show a real before and after compare apples to apples and show the same phase in the stride in the same section of the area for both photos. |
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| Clarissa |
I am confused by the photos.
They are both taken on the same day that is plainly obvious. I’m assuming the woman riding is Linda? Hard to tell in those photos. But I have never seen Linda ride or tell anyone to ride sitting that far back & dragging on the horse’s mouth like that. I’m obviously missing something? I can see the horse is tight & wrongly 'collected', almost forcefully in the second shot struggling to hold it's back up. In the first shot the horse is just trying to get away from the pressure on it's loins. |
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| becdubie |
That's definately not Linda in the photo. The photos were trying to demonstrate something in an exaggerated form, I believe. I guess if you really want to know about her game of contact you should attend the course instead of make assumptions.
I'm no expert in contact or equitation, but like Clarissa points out....I have NEVER seen Linda ride sitting back like that nor have I heard her instruct anyone to do so. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I agree. It is not Linda and I personally like how Linda rides. I never cared for her Balance Point lessons and so skipped that part. I assume the picture is a student in her class - and I might remind everyone to be nice since that person could join the forum at any time. We've had that experience before. I think they were trying to show the improvement in the horse and rider, and I agree that there is improvement, but more to improve. I see the horse pretty heavy on the forehand and strung out behind. Collection isn't 'just' a vertical head. I believe the student/horse is a work in progress. I am reminded of the article I quoted in the Flexion thread, that it takes a lot of lessons and a lot of horses before a person learns collection correctly. |
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| cynthia peterson |
I, for one, thank "Balance" for coming on the forum. And welcome. I like her, or his comments.
PasoCarol, the subject of Linda's contact game came up again b/c Linda is doing another set of them. She is also going on a world tour with her course. Love it or hate it, it is part of what Parelli is having as the "new and improved" methods. Linda states she has found something even her master teacher couldn't teach. Hard for me...but not gonna' comment on what I think of that...so that is really BIG to Linda's students, some of which are posting here. I ask you, why, would the rider be sitting on her butt and not her seatbones? Why would a Parelli student, and I would assume one that Linda is teaching isn't some newcomer that came off the bench b/c Linda only teachs her best in the Contact courses? Could it possibly have something to do with something Linda taught before her great transformation from her "years of lessons with WAZ?" Why would Linda even have to have WAZ give her lessons? What was missing? How well was Remmer coming along? Just saying... think through this and come up with your own conclusions... So, welcome to Balance. And to the rider in the pictures (if you are reading) We know you put your picture out there for every Parelli student (past and present to see) Thank you. And if you want to comment too, please join us! |
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| Clarissa |
I am wondering if the first shot is supposed to be a generalized representation of how many people do ride or are taught to ride.
The second shot is how much improvement could be gained immediately if the rider just sat forward to begin with. There isn't much explanation of the 2 shots in the email notification about these new upcoming courses. 
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| cynthia peterson |
There are 2 Contact courses in Florida this winter and then Linda goes to a couple European places to teach the Contact Courses. So, there is a interest in them enough to book the Clinics. She did some Contact classes earlier in Europe too.
The Contact courses are still "on" at the Florida Center. |
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| karmikacres |
Jeez, I thought they sold saddles and pads to fix this problem. Now they are saying it was their riding all along? | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Cynthia, it certainly is up to each person on if they think they will gain from Linda's course. I know I won't be taking it. I also know that I do not ride center seat all the time, only when I'm actively working on gait, collection or dressage. The rest of the time I am pretty relaxed and I'm sure my horse is pretty strung out. I have my own belief that trail horses shouldn't be ridden collected all the time, anymore then a ballerina should walk on her toes all the time. There is tension in the muscles in collection and I don't think that is a fair thing to do to an animal for hours on end.
I also know that most people need riding lessons and we all could use improvement. There are thousands of riding teachers, not all are the best or even 'good,' depending on who is doing the defining. I see a lot of improvement in the rider's seat in the two pictures. Is she 'there' yet, no, but then I don't ride 'there' all the time either. I'm not sure if I answered your question Cynthia. I would have to agree with Nicole and Julie's comments. If the second picture is all there is to the Game of Contact, then most (and their horses) would be better off with good Center Seat lessons. |
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| cynthia peterson |
Do you mean the questions I asked about why Linda took lessons from WAZ? Or what was missing, Paso Carol? No. Does anyone else have the answer?
IMHO, the concept of collection is not used when riding all the time. The concept of collection is to teach the horse balance and correct movements. The idea is they get to self carriage if you get things right. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
These were your questions...and I really don't know the answers as I've never taken a lesson from Linda...
And I don't know what she learned from WAZ. In my mind there is a lot of difference between Self Carriage (what I prefer) and collection, which I think should only be done for short periods of time. |
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| Julie |
self carriage / engagement is not the same as collection. Collection is a shortened frame, extension is a long frame, you can have self carriage / engagement in all frames, I agree Carol - these are different.
The seat is about muscle tone not muscle tension with the person in self carriage, carrying and balancing themselves using muscle tone. This is much easier in a balanced saddle, they horse will lift himself into the saddle if you get this spot on, with no effort. Lindas saddles was designed specifically to put you in a sitting on your pockets position - as per the first photo! Sitting in any other position will be difficult. |
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| stella |
Gotta disagree with you two girls. The word, "collection" is probably, at this point, a poor choice of terminology, because its giving too many people the wrong conception of what it is, being lately putting visions of top hats and piaffes in people's minds first thing.
Common, ordinary "street" collection is simply about teaching a horse how to centralize his weight, optimize his(or her)body position, in order to stay sounder for many more years, in "self-defense" against the onslaught of the burden of human weight(and that saddle thing's weight too)that humans expect them to do for hours on end... So, the horse that has "self carriage" has simply gotten into the very consistent habit and corresponding physical conditioning of carrying itself with a rounded back, "motor" in the rear, and shift of forehand weight, and correct shift of forehand weight, so that its HEAD AND NECK ARE INDEPENDENT, in the same way good riders' hands/arms, legs are- - so that you CAN ride them on the buckle, they can do a relaxed walk....just won't be dangerously risking back problems going strung out, with all that weight on that back, without the legs optimally helping with support. A horse with true self carriage then has the freedom of putting its head and neck any place it darned wants to, they lose dependence on it for balance.The only way to maximize true extension in movement, is to have this self-carriage--it improves impulsion. Think of it more as training the horse how to use itself in self-defense, to optimally protect itself from the eventual negative effects of being ridden by humans. Letting them get strung out is not a kindness. I think what Julie may have meant to say is, having self-carriage is not necessarily, dressage. You can have a horse with self-carriage, and it won't be dependent on having contact with the bit at all. The rein will be "a thread," at best. |
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| Chablis |
Ditto to above comments. |
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| Chablis |
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