I have a huge delema ... Bipolar horse? First Video posted.

Pedestal*Pony · I have a huge delema ... Bipolar horse? First Video posted.

Ok, the lady that I got Pony from has a 5yr old saddlebred gelding that I am starting to believe is Bipolar. She dont know alot about horses.

I dont know much about this horse at all but she has asked me to come help her with him since I do natural horsemanship.

She IM'd me on facebook last night and said he is now attacking them with a vengence when they go out in the pasture to do anything. He is attacking his own back legs and from what she says self mutilation (no wounds yet).

She said she tossed a piece of apple in to the pasture for him and he attacked it.

She said once she has him on a lead rope or lunge line he is fine. A little spooky but respectful and easy to handle. She has only had him about 2 months. I dont know anything about how she got him (free or paid) or why.

Do you all think he is just that domminant? She has one QH mare pastured with him. She dont want to put him down. With them not knowing much about horses, one of them is going to get seriously hurt. He has kicked her son already.

When I went and got Pony, I was knelt down by the fence because Pony was hard to catch and he came up to the fence with his ears pinned. I ignored it for a bit and then put my fingers thru and give him a little scratch on the nose. I picked him a little grass and he put his ears up for that.

I saw the movie Buck and dont want to end up like the guy that got his head split open by the horse.

PLEEEEEASE everyone, give me some suggestions before I go out to try to get my self killed working with this horse.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I don't know if bipolar is the word I'd use. First, I'd contact his previous owner and have them come see him, see if this is normal for him or not. There could be two things going on, he may have some type of pain or medical issue that he is fighting. The self-mutilation, if it is a new behavior, points towards this. It is normally associated with pain or stress. I'd have a GOOD horse vet evaluate him. A friend had a stallion who did this and it turned out to be testosterone poisoning.

http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/...viourproblems/eqselfmutilate.html

http://www.juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=80

I would rule this out FIRST before I did anything else.

The other thing is that he is a dominant type horse and is taking advantage of their lack of leadership. Once he learned they are afraid of him he is seeing how far he can take his new role as leader. In this case he is not a good choice for a first horse. I'm not sure where he came from or how he was presented to them, but it could be that the farm would take him back or trade for a more suitable horse.

I personally would not go in the pasture with him. Try to draw him into a round coral and work with him from the safety of the other side of the fence and see how that goes. You can not be fearful. Unless you are obviously confident in your ability to be the leader, failing to do so would do more harm then good. Horses like the Yellow horse are created...and it usually is safer to put them down, unless you are indeed a Buck. They are not horses for first time owners to learn with.

bit

Did you read Horses Don't Lie? No telling WHY this horse is reacting the way he is. The horse in the book had never been treated like a horse, by a human. Author did driving game, sometimes he drove the horse, sometimes the horse tried to drive him. This was in a round pen. The horse finally accepted the man as a leader, joined up, and then everything changed. I believe this horse was Ediquette? Honestly, if it were me, I'd let someone else deal with the horse. If he is having the same issues as Ediquette, timing has to be right and you have to be a pretty strong, confident individual. Buck could do it, Carolyn, Brent, the Vought's...but these are very gifted horse folk. Fear, weakness, any of that cannot enter into it. This horse will see it, and you'll be toast.

Pedestal*Pony

I asked her if his agression seems to be human made or if he seems to be hurting anywhere and she said that he dont seem to be hurting any where. He runs around in the pasture just fine and no signs of limping or anything like that.

I will go over and observe the old owner and her tomorrow morning. Then I will make the suggestions you all have. I dont want to get hurt. I dont want to see anyone else get hurt. She does not have any type of round pen, just a small pasture kinda wrapped around her house.

I too think this horse needs a professional. I am not a professional and sure dont claim to be but it breaks my heart to see people in this position. I can go watch and offer suggestions.

This lady has no money at all so I am sure a professional person is out of the question. I would say that their choices are very limited ... he will probably be put down.

Pedestal*Pony

I dont want to be toast for sure.

PasoBaby_CarolU

BTW - him "attacking" an apple is not at all normal...and that could easily be a big play drive and she doesn't understand the difference. Even if that is the case, he is still not a good choice for a new horse owner.

Pedestal*Pony

Clarissa

I don’t think a horse would be bipolar but I do believe a horse can have severe psychological problems ultimately caused by humans that lead to strange behaviors like you are describing.

I once knew of what I would call an extreme LBE gelding cut proud that was bored to death in a small paddock & overfed. He would give himself an erection then bite at it & his back legs for hours leaping & bucking around the paddock & attacking anything that caught his attention including his humans until he was exhausted.

He needed work & finally was handed over to the redneck at the top of our street who ‘broke’ him in, worked the asss off him on wild scrub cattle, kept him tethered & didn’t feed him much. It killed his spirit but did stop his behaviors.

So that might give you something to help guide you as to what your horse needs.

Quote “When she says attacking, I am picturing him bolting at her with his ears pinned flat back and his mouth wide open”

He just needs someone with ‘guts’ to stand their ground, protect their own space as he comes at them & stare him down. After a few times he will find a new game to play instead. The roll of the trainer is to direct all that energy into valuable games rather than allow more destructive games without implying to the horse that it is wrong. It doesn’t understand right from wrong so in the short term, discipline is a wasted & misguided effort.

gaitinalong

Any chance this horse is a cryptorchid? I probably spelled that wrong, but I have first-hand experience with one and he was just bloody unpredictably mean.

Along with having a vet check for that and testosterone level, I would also think about brain tumors, tumors behind the eye.

I have re-schooled some really mean and hateful Widowmakers in my life, none of them ever attacked food - not even the Cryptorchid.

This horse needs examined by a top notch vet before even attempting any further training, IMO. Anything less than a vet examining him first is pure foolishness and asking for a long-term bed in the Traction Ward at the local hospital.

Pedestal*Pony

I dont know if he is a cryptorchid or not. She has not been able to get a hold of the old owner for the past several days ... GO FIGURE! GRRR

I am so pissed at that person! Apparently he has NO concious (sp) and dont care if someone gets hurt.

So I am going to go out there and have Mandi video tape the horse and what he does. Of course from the other side of the fence.

I told her that I would take the guy to court.

She paid $75.00 for him and $40.00 to have him hauled to her house. Granted, it isnt much but for someone that has no money (like me), it would buy food for the house or gas for going to work.

Why do peole do this???? This makes me SOOOOOOO mad!!!! She has like a 8yr old son that is autisum (sp) and what happens if he wanders out in the pasture for ANY reason? Maybe he has been told many times not to go out in the pasture but if he does, that horse will kill him.

THAT scares me! I would much rather have the horse attack me then the little boy. I know, stupid to say but that is the way I am. I will not go in the pasture to get the horse. If we have too, we can lour the horse over the gate with food and catch him that way.

I will have Mandi post the video later today when we get home.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Well, make sure the horse really is violent and not just playful. New horse people quite often don't understand the difference and believe every time the horse puts its ears back it is angry.

I'm sorry Jodi, but if that is all she paid for the horse, then she may have gotten exactly what she paid for. So many people buy 'cheap' and don't realize they are just buying someone else's problems. A first time horse needs to be calm and well trained already. Look at the horse, the money she saved not buying a GOOD horse might need to be spent getting this one trained properly.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Did you get to see the horse? Have you got an update?

Pedestal*Pony

I went and saw and worked with the horse today and I would say yes, he is being aggressive. He did threat to bolt at the owner and kind of did. The old owner did come out.

When the horse walked up to the gate, he did pin his ears and start to open his mouth to bite. When I went out and worked with him, he did pin his ears at me but you will see in the video that I did not let him come to me or get close to me. I walked over to him a time or too but my guard was up at all times and it was on my terms.

His eyes did start to soften but I think he had alot going on in his head. Thinking about everything that was going on. I waited for him lick when he was standing still but if he tried to come to me before he licked I stopped him.

Before we went out, I watched him thru a window and he threw his head back at the top of his butt then started kicking his legs at his belly and would turn around and reach for his legs but didn't make contact with them.

When I was working with him, I didn't feel it was safe enough to use fazes to keep him away from me so I went rite to faze four. I hope that wasn't wrong.

I wasnt nervous or scared to be out there, just had my guard up at all times and didnt want to give him the chance to do anything like get me because a couple of times when I asked him to go out and lunge, I had to pop his shoulder and he was very pissed about that.

I couldn't totally decide if it was all dominance or not. I am going to watch the videos on my computer and see again how he acts. Either way, she don't need this horse and she knows it. You will see him go after her and she backs up in fear. When he pinned his ears with me, I chased him away or backed him up fast and hard.

I believe she is going to give him back to the old owner tomorrow or Monday and I believe he is going to take him and have him put down.

She has me on the hunt for a family horse.

jackspark

Sad and all too common situation. It happened in my family too....... horses are gone. Don't know how many times I've said to people: "Horses are not just big dogs"

CoolsLadyInRed

Happens all too often. A gal not to far away down the road got 2 Friesiens, a wagon and everything else that had do with these 2 mammoth horses and she had never owned horses. Somebody got hurt pretty bad and now everything is gone including the horses.

Pedestal*Pony

Mandi is going to post the links as soon as she gets up this morning.

I hope the video shows you all how he is. I know for sure that he is not the horse for the family. As far as him coming out of it, that could probably happen with the right person.

Mandi says I could do it but I refuse to have a horse here that could possibly hurt one of my girls! Not to mention I would be in divorce court bringing another horse here! Almost put him over the edge bringing Pony here.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I still wonder about him biting at his but and back legs. Sounds like stomach pain and could be ulcers or something else painful. Could be something serious or as simple as a bean. A lot of the rest could be from being in pain, but he has learned that people are afraid of him and he needs a Leader.

I hope the owner takes him back and finds an answer for him. 5 years old is a very young horse to put down - especially when a good horseman could probably 'fix' him in about 10 minutes.

I think a first horse should usually be a very well trained "kids horse" type animal, preferably a mild LBI with patience and kindness. This lady also needs a good Horsemanship course starting with the basics.

Pedestal*Pony

I agree for sure but his fate is not good. I am sure by Tuesday he will be gone. It is sad. He is actually 7yrs old.

The owner keeps saying she has worked with top million dollar TB race horses and all these world champion horses.

After I got done working with him, we switched halters and let him go and then I got the bag of carrots and asked him to come over (we were on the outside of the pasture now) to see if he would do the ear pinning and biting thing and he walked over with his ears perked forward and kinda blew slightly poked his nose out for a sniff and turned and walked away.

He came with in a couple feet when he did that. Maybe a good sign? Maybe he was just overwhelmed?

Pedestal*Pony

Here is the first video. More to come.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMNglXJ3e1g&feature=youtu.be

thelmanelle

He is certainly territorial and dominant in his actions. I could hardly hear what the man was saying about when he was gelded? How old is he. He look like he really has never been handled and allowed to be a dominant horse with no leader.

I did hear the man say he had never acted like that...? I question that, as the man was not willing to go in with him or touch him due to how aggressive he was acting.

I had a horse that would double barrel kick my other horses or a person without any warning. My sister wanted him and I told her what he would do. I gave her the halter, lead line and CS with SS to always be around him and yes, her fence was around her house.

That horse was gorgeous, he did the same thing to her mare and one day as my sister came up he got her in the chest.

She did not tell me until months later that he went to a little girl who rides and loves him. I said, "Hope and pray you gave them fair warning about his kicking.

Do be careful. I was around one once that was very scary and I know where those folks sent him. That was years ago. What someone does to allow this is beyond me.

MagicMandi

hey guys sorry for causing such a long wait for the videos. there are 5 and jodi posted the link for the first one already. i left them to upload over night and only the first one was complete

the second one is now loading... 3% with an estimated 947 minutes left.

i'll post links as they finish...eventually

Mandy'sMarty

Jodi, I've watched the first video posted and I get a very different impression about this gelding.

The following is my opinion. It is based on what I believe to be accurate information that I believe to be expressed by this horse energetically. I personally would have no qualms interacting with this horse within his paddock.

This horse has not been adequately socialized with people. I believe it is a particularly sensitive individual and behaves in a manner that could be described as 'having a high standard of dignity' in how it expects...and probably now demands...to be treated by humans. For example, the man interacting with him in the video appears to be only aggravating this horse. The horse does not like people grabbing at his face without permission. In the horse world, this is rude behavior. ( My mare, who has a special bond with me, still resents me touching her face without the proper introduction and request for her permission.)

The horse appears to be looking for a treat from the man, and when it realizes that there is none, it turns and walks away. I believe that this horse has been conditioned to expect treats from humans because that is probably the only way anyone has been able to get close to him.

I also believe that when the owner 'tossed' an apple into his paddock, this horse interpreted that gesture as an unprovoked attack. I believe he only saw an object being thrown at him, not tossed for him.

I believe this horse has been grossly misunderstood and is acting out in a way to preserve his dignity and his personal safety. He is misunderstanding the behavior and intentions of humans and this makes for a dangerous situation. I suspect his 'bipolar' behavior is simply his sudden, reactive, self-preservation response to a human that is trampling on his dignity and encroaching in on his bubble. He is probably very sensitive to the fear that he feels from the humans around him. That would only make him more insecure and fearful. It's apparently become a vicious cycle.

One excellent way to break this cycle and truly reach him would be working The Carolyn Resnick Method with him. The Waterhole Rituals.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I watched this and I pretty much agree with Marty's interpretation. I feel the horse is offended by the man wanting to touch his nose and the man not understanding horses or that this is offensive. I don't see the horse as being aggressive, just unhappy.

I also still feel this is not the right horse for a first time owner. This horse needs a confident owner - before he is ruined. If the seller will take him back, that would be best.

Jodi, this woman needs a BTDT horse and LESSONS!!!

Pedestal*Pony

The lady sent me a text and said she has decided to give the horse a couple weeks to work more with him.

The old owner was the black guy in the video. He said the horse has never done any of this before.

Mandi is on her way home and going to see if the second video is finished loading that shows the horse actually going after the lady and the lady backing up in fear.

I tried to tell her that this horse is not the horse for her in any way, shape or form because she wants a trail horse. As you can see, he is not a big, tall or wide horse and she is a big lady. Both his front hooves are club feet and below his knees his legs twist out. He trips alot and almost went down once. He is also spooky. That being said, I told her all that and I guess she is going to try to keep him.

I think it is a train wreak waiting to happen too!

PasoBaby_CarolU

scary!

bit

I noticed the horse attempeted to "say hello" and the guy tried to grab his halter. The more I saw, the more impatient I got with the guy. Honestly, this horse just needs a good human. Marty, whr's would be wonderful for him.
Considering all of his physical issues, I would think he may be in discomfort, and not a riding horse. Maybe a companion, liberty horse with a good trimmer. How sad. I really like this horse. Shoot, Hawkie was so much worse! He's an amazing horse, now. Just amazing. Sad that a lot of horses are so misunderstood.

Clarissa

I could only find the first video too.

I agree with Marty also & would add this extra.

I think this horse has been raised in isolation & cut late. He is a backyard foal or perhaps an orphan. He is not the slightest bit socialized.

I noticed his ears are set very high on his head & are quite pointed with curled tips that point towards each other at their tips. Is this horse a cross breed? I am thinking he looks like one of those Indian Maharaja horses (sub continent) or Pakistani horses that are indigenous to that area. They are particularly wild (as in not a fully domesticated breed) & also have almost club front feet. They are tall upright horses with very high headsets & tall pointed ears set high on the head that bend towards each other & touch or even overlap at their tips. It is a very important feature of the breed & all breeding stock must have this feature.

He is currently suffering from ‘human disease’. In other words humans have created the horse standing there right now. If he gets put down it will be due to a failing of his recent owners.

In anycase this horse needs an experienced trainer to undo that disease over an extended period of time. That doesn’t mean he would always be trust worthy after being correctly trained. I think this horse would revert to this behavior if not very thoughtfully kept by an experienced owner from now on. He would have to go to a person who would never pass him to anyone else for fear of ending up or being exposed to people who don’t know enough to understand his MO or how his brain works.

I would give him for free to someone extremely experienced in training using gentle methods who is looking for disadvantaged horses to retrain for the purposes of gaining experience. Once retrained I would still have this horse euthanatized (mostly for safety reasons due to his malformed front feet) if a suitable permanent home couldn’t be found for him. He would revert in an instant.

Sad, but that's what happens when the wrong horses gets into the wrong hands.

Pedestal*Pony

I cant wait for Mandi to get the one video of him threating to go after her and she backs up in fear.

It is probably all dominance and misunderstanding. But I want you all to see this video too.

Clarissa

I also meant to add that although it wasn't shown in the one video, the thing about this horse biting at his flanks etc could be due to this horse may be experiencing pain from the way he was gelding.

If the cords aren't treated correctly they can weld to other flesh parts inside during the healing process (or can just heal that way anyway) & then when the horse makes certain movements or puts on weight it drags on the cords & causes pain.

I am currently having this problem with Sonny who has got too fat in his nether regions.

I'm not saying the horse here is fat, far from it. But he may still be having sharp pains if his cords are being pulled as he moves around.

Pedestal*Pony

This horse is supposed to be a Saddlebred. I dont know if he is registered or not but he does look like one to me.

There is so much great knowledge flowing here! I love it! It sure makes me think.

Mandi is really trying to get the video of him going after her posted to youtube. I want you all to see that and want your insight on that (cuz you guys are the BEST!!

).

From what she last said to me, she thinks she has found a trainer to take him. For the trainer, not to train him for this lady to get back. Which would be so great! But, we will see ...

Clarissa

Marwari was the breed of horse I was thinking of. I thought it might be a saddlebreed Marwari cross. I don't know if there are any in USA.

MagicMandi

FINALLY!! after hours of trying to find how to edit and compress a video, it took two hours to load 2 1/2 minutes of video but I GOT IT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DPk4hQmndI&feature=youtu.be
here's the video of Joker showing aggression towards Lauren. Notice her lack of confidence while approaching him. he obviously sensed it and her fear of him.

Personally, i believe at this moment in the day, Joker felt like she was charging him while she believed she was showing assertiveness. so he might have felt threatened. With the man, i think it was a show of his assertiveness. That's just my two cents

thebundychick

both times he showed aggression involved food.

The very first time, I'm not sure if Lauren had food in her hand, but she seemed to invite him in, and the second he took a step in with his head up, she sent him away, which is confusing him - so he runs off to the hay.

The second time, when he had his ears pinned at the man, there was a feed bucket infront of the man, and he horse felt threatened about his food.

Based on the video... he's just dominant about his food, he doesn't strike me as a dangerous horse... just needs some WHR maybe, with lots of "taking territory" once the first few rituals are established.

Pedestal*Pony

thelmanelle

Now after seeing the 2nd video, I have to agree. I think the horse has been basically fed and untouched. Definitely not for the green owner. Yes, all about food. What happens if she enters and is not feeding. Instead, interacting. She maybe using the food to detract the horse so she can get away. But, that is reinforcing the situation. She needs a foundation or he needs a better trainer.

Mandy'sMarty

After seeing the second video, I'm changing my first opinion about Joker.

Lauren approaches him in a very direct line manner with her hand and arm outstretched toward Joker. Apparently she thinks this is a way to attract him. He slightly pins his ears and turns away from her. She continues to move toward him as he moves away. She is in effect driving him from zone 4, at which point he turns to confront her and nod at her to let her know that was too much pressure.

Joker does not like to be driven by Lauren. Obviously he does not respect her as a leader. He needs someone to engage him with draw. I don't see him as dangerous. Just very skeptical and not socialized in a positive way with humans.

It's interesting to see Joker interact with both Lauren and his former owner. In both instances, Joker appears to be initially curious about them, then to recoil from too much pressure, then to quickly move toward nearby food ( hay and later, empty feed pan) and away from the annoying human.

I now see a horse that wants a relationship. I don't see a 'dignity issue' nor a need for self preservation. In fact, Joker seems to have a relatively small bubble boundary that appears to be just a few feet from his body. I believe he is stressed because no one around him seems to be able to speak his language.

Check Joker's behavior at the 00:58 point. He suddenly alerts on something at the turf in front of him. I see a horse with curiosity. He is often looking back to the humans. He actually walks up to the gate with ears forward. Joker seems to be looking for something...or someone...provocative enough to hold his attention.

Unfortunately, I agree with Joker. I see no one around him who can be his leader. Not even someone who can speak his language. How lonely that must feel.

MagicMandi

i cant see the video now but i think 0:58 was when Lauren threw an apple to him

Mandy'sMarty

If so, that would then explain his behavior in walking up to the gate. He is food motivated and apparently thinks of humans as merely food dispensers.

bit

SHeesh, ya'll should see Shaun at feeding time! It's been a slow go, but he's finally starting to get his ears forward. I think he'd be pretty scary to most folks but he's really just trying to connect. These horses offer such a wonderful opportunity for the human to learn about horsemanship. Hawk and Shaun have taught me so much. This horse is a gift, not a curse.

PasoBaby_CarolU

While I agree that the horse is a great learning opportunity Deb, it didn't look to me like the people in the video were on a journey of improving their horsemanship. Even the first call to Jodi was blaming the horse.

bit

I think that was on of my biggest challenges, to quit blaming the horse. It's been a challenge not to blame my parents, my ex, my back injury, my whatthefreakinever! It was my excuse not to be accountable. Now I think, "Ok, what am I not doing, how am I not asking so that I can help my horse?" Watching Tom Dorannce dvd's right now, and filling up the well. I hope this horse finds his angel. He's got so much heart, I'd hate to see it broken.

PasoBaby_CarolU

You can probably buy him for the right price Deb!

I agree. I see some nice, soft expression on this horse and would hope that he finds his way to a good owner who is, or at least wants to become, a good horseman. I do fear though that if things keep going as they are in these videos, his life is only going to get worse.

Pedestal*Pony

jackspark

Man, all about the food. He seemed to be defending his food in the interaction with the man. This won't be an easy fix but could happen with the right leader

barnelda

I had a horse a lot like this years ago.Unfortunately I sold him before I found Parelli

I have regretted that ever since.I miss him very bad.

I completely believe horses like these just need the right owner.They are very misunderstood.That's what it seems to me anyway.Maybe I'm wrong.

bit

Shaun was starved when he arrived at the kill pen. Food is a big issue. Me protecting him while he eats is a big deal. He gets to eat without being hasseled, he gets a place at the round bale, and no hassel...it went a long way with him. Boundaries, very big. He comes off very aggressive, and pushy. He is, but he's so happy to find another way. Glad this "bi polar" horse is so far away. I've learned, I like my horses trained, calm, and easy. Just like I like my men!

Clarissa

Yes I have changed my mind about this horse’s problems too after seeing the second video.

Isn’t it interesting how a picture is worth a thousand words & saves arriving at the wrong conclusion!

Lack of socializing regarding food is all the issue is here. That & just plain bored, bored, bored. A good NH home will solve all his problems quickly. If that is possible get him there in double quick time. He would make an excellent project for someone who already has the basics of the psychology under their belt & wants to fully explore WHR & similar.

Did you see in the second video how the horse succeeded at driving the lady away from his hay even though she was waving her stick around. If she was too take a step towards him & hold her ground waving her stick until he backed off a step it would have made all the difference.

dmcamelothills

KylieGodwin

Having just attended another Buck Brannaman clinic, I can't help but think what would he do in this scenario. He clearly stated he does not, under any circumstances accept a poor expression on a horse whilst in his presence. He discussed a situation regarding walking into a pen with a group of horses that, when he shows up (lead horse), the horses had better pay attention and be it polite attention, or he is gonna go over there, and that horse pulling the face, had better change his disposition, or not be there when he gets there, and have left with a smile, or he will regret it

PasoBaby_CarolU

Kylie, Buck also has the skills to do that without beating the horse. 99% of horse owners (and definitely this one) do not. They would just turn the horse into a people-fearing outlaw.

Jodi, what is going on with the horse?

Pedestal*Pony

I havent talked to her since last weekend but last I knew she had given the horse to a "trainer" and apparently the trainer brought him back and dumped him back in her pasture when no one was home because he was "mean as a rattle snake".

Ballzy ... huh?

She contacted me last weekend and told me that the horse was still owned by the first lady and the black man (in the video) had no right to sell him to her. So the lady that technically owns him lives in Texas and she was trying to get someone to come pick him up last weekend.

Not sure that happened or not. I am curious as to what happened too so I will try to find out this weekend what is going on.

Clarissa