It's about excessive fees...not about the shoe

Clarissa · It's about excessive fees...not about the shoe

I am putting this here because it's not just about the shoes. It's about how much this guy thinks he can get out of me because he thinks I'm desperate. Well I am but there's desperate & then there's desperate with money! Or desperate & stupid.

But I'm caught between a rock & a hard place. Sonny's front foot is getting really bad & he needs urgent attention but I haven't been able to find a farrier anywhere around here. Just in the last couple of days the front right hoof outer capsule has separated & rotated away from the inner bone structure & only sole support will work now.

I contacted the guy who represents Cytek in Queensland today to see about using them for Sonny. He's from Tamborine which is about 3hrs drive from me. He said he would drive up here to fit shoes all round on Sonny within the next few days.

His fees are :- $75/hr traveling fee; $150 to fit the shoes. The shoes cost $7each according to his website. He also requires a vet present to do sedation & nerve blocks on all 4 feet so they can be worked on without causing discomfort to the horse which I do understand. All that ads up to almost $1000!!

What am I to do? Sonny has $200 remaining in his paypal account from monies donated. I have about $150 saved & that's all there is.

I think he is over charging. Surely he doesn't charge $75/hr to drive to his local or semi local clients? I realise trades people are entitled to something for travel costs, but $450 for 6hrs driving??? I could order him a taxi for less.

This is just such a dilema. I was expecting to pay more than usual for a specialist farrier but this is rediculous.

Spitfire

Well... his travel fee is steep, yes, but you are paying for his time as well as fuel and wear n tear on the vehicle. A 6hr taxi trip would cost you over $400 alone, not including his time. He could probably shoe a horse in two hours = $150 = $75/hr. So that sounds about right.

$150 to fit the shoes. Again, steep, but in the ball park. We pay $110/4 shoes, but our farrier doesn't charge much as we are regulars and local to him. Plus we always have 2-5 horses to be done at once.

I also pay $5/shoe for steel. $7 for one of those clodhopper cytec things sounds pretty accurate.

So... no, you aren't being ripped off. The man could shoe 3-4 horses and earn himself $450-600 in the same time it would take just to travel to you and back. Vet sedation... well, you are looking at $200 minimum here. We pay $100+ just to have the vet come out and do an exam during working hours. Drugs are additional.

I don't think this is a very wise move at all. You would be better off sending Sonny somewhere dry(er) where there is a local farrier to attend his feet. Have you a friend you could send him to? Why do you need Cytec shoes on him? From your description, he would need hot-forged and fitted shoes to help him deal with the separation, NOT those one-size-fits-all things. The bar-shoe farrier would be a better choice, if it came down to it!

PasoBaby_CarolU

I have to agree. I think I'd get Sonny out of pain for the trip but take him where there is a vet and good founder farrier that work together. I don't think Cytek shoes are magic, but I do think that what you are describing is extremely serious. If you really want to save Sonny, you need a good vet/farrier team. It's not just a set of shoes, it is at least 6 months of intense farrier/vet care, and it has to be a vet that specializes in founder horses.

I am so sorry it has come to this. This poor horse just doesn't seem to get a break.

PasoBaby_CarolU

BTW - my farrier lives a little over 2 hours from me. He doesn't charge travel time at all. But he has a number of clients in northern Utah, so he comes north 2 days a week and does a circuit of farms and barns here. I think those prices sound horrible, but believe you will be looking at something similar to board Sonny where there is a vet/farrier combo and treatment for several months.

HopeMissouri

Don't assume rates by website posting. ASK. Time is negotiable.

Hope it works out well for you!

bit

Gosh I feel pretty lucky. My farrier lives about 10 minutes from me. Clarrisa, I'm so sorry that your sweet boy is in such pain. It does sound like he needs a change in his environment. His feet issues have been going on for as long as I can remember.

lizloveshorses

I think there is something seriously wrong with having to have a vet administer nerve blocking pain medication just to put shoes on. There must be another alternative. The moment I saw Jim Crew use a blow torch on a friend's horse's club foot, I knew that something was not right. The same here, too. I agree with the others' suggestions. Send him somewhere dry for that money so that he has a chance to grow new hoof and keep it, if you say the wet is what is messing up his hooves.

Clarissa

The nerve block is so Sonny can stand on the bad front foot while the other front foot is shod. I don’t believe he needs nerve blocks all round. I certainly don’t feel he needs sedation to be shod, particularly if he had a nerve block on the bad foot.

The opportunity did present itself briefly for him to go west to a specialized vet farm. However they are now flooded & the farm is in ruin from unprecedented high floods breaking all records. The vet will now not be doing her SE Qld round in the coming month at this stage. That is the only farm set up for laminitic horses. In any case he needs to be shod & or in a better state to travel such a distance or any distance for that matter.

regarding these cytek shoes.....I have ‘slept on it’ …… (well I slept for 1.5hrs anyway!) & come to a decision. It is now 4.40am & I am at my computer writing this because I have been laying in bed worrying about it too much.

I will just buy the shoes off this guy on his website (they come with instructions, since they aren’t like rim shoes, you have to find the midpoint of the hoof, it's all to do with the early breakover removing all leverage from the front of the hoof & giving total solar support) & fit one shoe to the bad hoof myself using silicone to glue it on since there are no walls to nail it to. Then use gaffer tape to hold it for however long it takes for Sonny to be able to bear weight on that hoof again. The silicone will provide a pad for initial comfort also. I read that is done a lot overseas. It only holds for a few days before needing reapplication which is good for reassessment.

I will be getting the vet again soon anyway to change Sonny's pain meds. He can make sure the hoof is structual & sound enough to stand on.

When he can stand on that foot I will apply the other front shoe. I have all day & he will stand quietly for me, no vets required.

If applying a shoe to the bad foot doesn’t improve things I have not ‘done my dough’, just purchased some shoes. There is a massive difference between $50 for 4 shoes + a tube of silicone & $1000!!! This way I get to test the product first before committing to the full procedure. And if it does work, I won’t need to get the vet with all that expense involved, so I can afford to get the guy to drive up to fit them all round.

If the guy is sure his shoes will work he should be happy enough to sell me a set of shoes first. If not, it’s deal off. I don’t have those sort of funds laying around to blow on something that may or maynot work. I am still in 2 minds about how successful it would be on the really bad hoof because I think there is currently a solar cushion abscess in there as well so it wouldn’t matter what sort of shoe he was wearing he still wouldn’t be able to bear weight on that foot for a few more days.

So thanks & cheers peers you've all helped me make this decision.

Spitfire

I don't think silicon glue would support that shoe. A plastic shoe, maybe.

If Sonny is that bad that he requires nerve blocks to be shod, then I think this has gone beyond glueing shoes on him, I'm sorry. He needs proper farrier and vet attention. A bad situation I'm afraid.

Chablis

I'm sorry to hear that Sonny is so bad, Clarissa. <hugs>

From what I have read, the farrier would need to travel six hours all up? That'a lot of driving for one customer which is no doubt why he said he would charge a travel rate of $75AU/hour.

He would probably stay at your place for as long as he needed to help Sonny so he would miss out on other income during that time?

Around $150AU for a full set of shoes is pretty standard in Canberra but I don't know what the average is for Qld.

JackPNH

I have refrained from posting here for a number of reasons but I can not sit back any longer. Constant sole pressure should be avoided at all costs, there is a major blood vessel that surrounds the coffin bone and by applying sole pressure the blood flow through this vessel is dramatically reduced causing many associated problems. Cytek shoes are not the answer to this problem and I don't they would ever be. I have yet to see a healthy hoof either shod or barefoot that is dubbed back the way a hoof is when a cytek shoe is fitted. The malarky that cytek pitch about early breakover and so forth defies all hoof anatomy logic that is available through sound scientific research. I understand that you are at your wit's end trying to solve the soundness problem you have and that the availabilty of a farrier is almost none existant but please don't waste your hard earned cash on something that will not work.

I am sorry that I cant be of more practical assistance, and in fact if I lived anywhere near you I would take on your horse and do his farriery free of charge and I would be able to gaurentee (sp) you a postive result. Please don't get ripped off.

Steve

Clarissa

Sonny is walking better today. I assume the abscess has broken through into the gapping hole of the separated layers as the hoof is far less hot & he is bearing weight on it to rest his LF hoof for first time in many days.

The afore mentioned guy hasn’t got back to me since I sent him the photos…..interesting

So everyone can rest easy now

However……

Obviously the bush telegraph is working for me out there because I was contacted this morning by one of the local(ish) farriers I was unable to find details for last week. He is away but will ring me again tomorrow on his return.

So that is really positive! That’s the best contact I’ve had in the 6mths I’ve been trying to get a farrier. I have spoken to a few others who responded to my messages, sms or emails but no firm commitment was made.

One thing I have learnt from speaking to the local vets is that the better farriers hereabouts are so overworked they can pick & choose. Everyone was pointing me to the guy who was to do the job last week & who now is going through some sort of family problem & unavailable. He runs classes & teaches farriery. I guess everyone thought he would be interested in taking on this sort of case. Who’s to know if his family issues are real or not but an sms or email would have helped me understand rather than me having to hear 3rd hand.

I have spoken to a few others over the last few months but on further questioning they seem to be rather rushed & not keen to be kind to the horse. I assume that was the reason the cytek guy wanted Sonny sedated & nerve blocked all round. I am really anti nerve blocks but was prepared to accept it on the one sore hoof so the other front could be shod.

Steve I know of that blood vessel you speak of. But what is the difference between a sole plate & a bar shoe? Both are applying direct & continuous pressure to the sole if nailed on, plus the bar/heart shoe also covers the frog in part too (well ones that I have seen anyway). This is a discussion we should take to the Farrier section.

Anyway one point I would like to make here is that there is apparently a real shortage of decent farriers. No wonder really, since shoeing is as hard as shearing & hardly any young people want to take that on now as a profession. I remember when I was young & strong & doing a man’s job daily, how hard I found it making shoes in the forge. After a day shoeing stock horses for mustering camp I was stuffed & my arms wanted to fall off. We didn’t always make all the shoes but any horse that had a strange shaped foot got handmades or at least modified bought shoes of various styles. Some of them needed one on the nose too!

I know we have hardly any young men on this forum but perhaps their mothers are here. I don’t know what it’s like in other parts of the world but here there must be a shortage. I know many have gone out of shoeing & just do trimming these days. But farriery would be a very honorable trade for any young man to follow particularly if he has had a NH handling background first.

JackPNH

Clarissa
there is a vast difference between a barred shoe, either heart bar or egg bar, compared to a cytek shoe.

A cytek shoe applies constant sole pressure.

An egg bar shoe is shoe that has a bar across the heels, a heart bar shoe is a shoe that applies pressure to the frog. These shoes are fitted for various reasons but they do not apply constant sole pressure.

As I am sure you know the sole of a horse, actually the whole hoof, is a flexible structure and it need to remain so when shod. Correctly made and fitted shoes do not apply sole pressure because they should have been "seated out" prior to fitting. Seating out is where any part of the shoe that covers the sole is relieved so that it doesn't touch the sole. This only has to be a millimeter or so. Unfortunately this is where many so called farriers take shortcuts and don't do this anymore

As said I wish I lived closer, or at least knew of a decent farrier in your area to recommend, I wish you all the best.

At any stage please feel free to ask any questions and I will give you an honest opinion and if I don't know the answer I will try and find out from various farrier friends that I trust.

Steve

Clarissa

Ok well I'm still not out of the woods. A local farrier wants to charge $100 each for 2 handmade heartbar shoes. Is that the going rate?

This guy is the other farrier I had been trying to contact & he finally rang tonight. He seems to have a one cure fits all policy.

He was adamant Sonny’s P3 would have rotated & wanted new xrays. I asked him for his email addy to send him photos & current xrays but he stalled there! Obviously not IT literate! Lol

So without anymore consultation he said he would fit a heart bar shoe & it would be $200 for the 2 front shoes only! I asked if he made them himself onsite to which he assured me he did. At $100 each it’s just as well!!

I think he will get a shock when he sees Sonny’s feet in person. I’m not sure he is the right person for the job because I don’t think the bad front foot can have a shoe nailed to it yet.

Anyway I didn’t say yes or no. If that is the going rate then it’s fine. But I also need to know that nailing to such a compromised hoof won’t cause yet more pain & abscesses.

I will ask that question in the farrier section.

imagele

Clarissa,

I was paying around $200 for two heart bars and two normal shoes on the hinds back in the 1990s. The heart bars were made from the largest shoe kearckhart (sp ?) made and with a straight bar & the frog support added. My horse bent the more normal heartbar out of shape within a couple of weeks, hence the straight bar at the heels.

The farrier did not come to me, I was floating her for just over an hour one way. Initially the shoes were being reset every 3 weeks. A reset was around $100. The heartbars needed replacing every 8 - 10 weeks.

If this farrier knows his job (mine did) $200 sounds reasonable to me.

imagele

You probably already know this but just in case you dont

I made the mistake of assuming just any X-ray would do. They don't. My farrier had very specific requirements about hoof markers on the X-ray. If you do get another set done make sure you mark the hoof how he wants it done. Not all Equine Vets know about this sort of thing either.

Clarissa

Imagele thanks for that info re the cost. A normal 4 hoof shoeing on a new horse costs about $140 around here apparently. With successive shoeings around the $100. That might be cold shoes too, I'm not really sure.

The only markers placed on the hoof at the time of the xrays were the chalk line down the center front of the hoof which can be seen on the xray.

I wasn't all that happy with this latest xrays due to the machine not being truely level with the bottom of the hoof. So there is about 75mm or 3/8th inch of sole missing from the bottom of the xray. I can be sure about that because I know the height of the bevel at the front of the hoof & I took photos of the hooves at the same time. But the vet works with farriers including the one who has called me. So I assume he knows what they want.

I will show this farrier these xrays anyway plus photos so he can see the history if he wants.