John and Josh Lyons

greyhoundhorse · John and Josh Lyons

I was intrigued with them when I saw the DVD "In a Whisper" where Josh Lyons won.
I've watched a couple of their unbroke horse training DVD's. I like some of what I see especially the starting at liberty in the roundpen. But I am not real keen on them using the bridle and bit so much with their groundwork training.
Any thoughts or discussion

cynthia peterson

Yes, I know what you mean. I actually did see John at a clinic a couple of years ago, and it was pretty good. He had a horse loose in a big pen and he would toss clods of dirt to get it's attention and work to keep the attention. The thing with the Lyons (and I have a friend with all his books, and materials, so I have checked them) is that chasing the horse around the roundpen until it tires enough to "hook on" which is what we call in NH "giving both eyes". There is a world of difference of "giving in" and wanting to hook on. I think his latter material has seen the be a improvement on the chasing the horse in the roundpen stage of earlier days.

Josh is more "performance" goaled. In fact, when I first seen the Horse Whisper DVD I thought I would see how Josh must have " cheated Pat out of winning" with those methods. To my surprise (and a U turn on my thinking of how good Pat was) Josh displayed what I thought Pat would do in that DVD. And Pat did what I expected to see Josh do! I gotta' say, I was impressed. I am not impressed by Josh's DVDs (still goal set, but it works well for him)

No one can deny the love, respect, and training John displayed with his Appaloosa! It is a goal we should all seek. He trained that horse all himself, and it was good until the day it died. John used to have RFDTV show and I liked his "Preacher" horse too. I am not enthralled on John's flooding method of throwing pails, making horses step over odd things, balloons, etc. to train the horse to not be spooky. But, who am I to say that might work on certain horses?

As you can see, I like to give someone (even Pat and Linda, I read your other post "Grey") where credit is due. I also think it is a service to mention where I think the teachings may be wrong, or at the very least, could be taught in a better way. It really torques me when a Clinician just keeps going with a bad idea and refuses to change. I salute John on changing his "chasing the horse" theory. It was a subject of "how to do it wrong" to many.

I have to add, I have seen a couple John Lyon's credited trainers (he was the first, long before Parelli,, and he didn't even sue them for taking his idea) Those two credited trainers have even exceeded John. So he must have done something right. That and a good son to further his program, Must make a Father proud. I like that twist to it...

PasoBaby_CarolU

I started with John Lyons, long before Parelli. I have several years of his Perfect Horse magazine, and quit taking it after reading about the "Go Forward Cue" umpteen times, and realizing the meat of what each article was about after that was in the last paragraph. You can only read the same thing so many times...kind of like PNH and now the 4th version of the Levels. If you have the first set, you can skip all the others.

There are many John Lyons methods I still use, particularly for barn or buddy sour horses. I have found his 'go forward cue' to be less pressure then many others and easier on horses who overreact to pressure.

I liked Josh in the Whisper DVD and have to agree with Cynthia about the flaws of "hooking up" - which I also have with Monty Roberts. The Parelli Catch Me game is much BETTER, and it works where joining up doesn't always. Chasing Paso Finos in a round pen gets you no where, but a horse in great condition. You will not tire them out and they will not stop as long as you are applying pressure.

One thing I really liked about John's magazines were the UNBIASED reviews of different products. They would test things, like manure forks, and give reviews on which were best, hardiest, broke less often, etc. Pretty handy information.

I've tried watching John on RFD TV, and fall asleep. I think he talks as much as Pat, but in a less entertaining way, and he puts me to sleep. I remember thinking, "He talks like he has all day to train a horse." and then realized that he did indeed have all day, so no hurry.

ElaineC

I have John Lyons' ground and riding manuals, and find them a really handy reference tool. They tend to be heavy on repetition, I tend to stop when I find progress instead of repeating x number of times, but otherwise I like them. If I'm stuck on a problem or something that I want to teach, I often find a solution or ideas to try in these. I've seen Josh at a clinic, was well worth the money but probably wouldn't go again unless with friends.

All in all I find them a good resource, I have no inclination to sell the manuals but I don't know that I'd buy more. A big part of that though is because I already have a fairly extensive library. If I needed some insight on something they had a DVD or book on, I would certainly buy it.

greyhoundhorse

I am not familiar with his run them til they stop method. It must be before this set of DVd's that I've watched. In fact, he makes a point of saying several times the point is NOT to chase the horse, but to get him to stop and face. This is what I liked because I was trying the Parelli catching game with an unbroke mustang and like you said Carol, she could have run all day and yes the point ended up being "wow, I have a much more fit horse".
This is what made seek something dfferent because what I was teaching her was to KEEP running, NOT stop. She assumed as soon as I entered her paddock, she was to take off.
Their courses are run by John I see from looking at the website. And they are expensive! More so than Parelli.
John Lyons will be giving a clinic in Clemson, SC in a few weeks. I think I'll go up for a day and watch him in person.

jackspark

I also started with John and bought his materials and my first and only dressage whip, 15 years ago!

Also have many years of Perfect Horse, but stopped using his stuff, just grew past it for many reasons. I saw him twice and Josh once, a little bored with both of them. I got some great info from them and I have to say got some BAD habits also

Speaking of Perfect Horse I subscribed to The Trail Less Traveled, back in the late 90's and loved it, more that PH. Anyone familiar with it and what happened to it?

greyhoundhorse

Would anyone be willing to let me borrow their Lyon's books? I can get the DVD's from giddyupflix.
I'd be happy to pay shipping to and from.

John Lyon's auditing fee is $35/day. The three-day participation with horse is $1000.

cynthia peterson

Grey, I believe (if I remember correctly) The Road Less Traveled, was the forerunner (and bought out by) of the excellent magazine, Eclectic Horseman. That magazine is still being produced (EH) and I strongly suggest it to everyone. Well I guess you can tell how old I am to remember the "chasing the horse) John Lyons did. He would have a roundpen and if the horse would not turn in and face him, he would chase it back out with a lariat until it would come in. And that would many times end up with the horse giving in b/c it was tired. He did change that when many pointed out to the err of that tactic. As I said, he I admire him for it. He was THE Clinician for many years.

jackspark

greyhoundhorse

jackspark-I know exactly what you mean. This was what was happening with the mustang I'd been playing with.

jackspark

I didn't know much, ok anything, about horsenality back in the Lyons and early Parelli days. I kinda just assumed that they ALL responded in a similar way to round pen work.

I really didn't get that some horses were super sensitive and didn't need much "show of force" I assumed that his turning to the outside was a refusal to do as I asked........... Well you know the rest of the story. The stuff ran down hill from there and it wasn't until much later that I realized my horrible mistakes. He is still super sensitive and it only takes the flick of a finger to send him off and out of my space.

Still can't ride him though........ we'll get there I trust.

greyhoundhorse

Nancy,
how long have you had him?

We've had this mustang for about 4 months now. but I don't do any more handling of her. She is still doing the same things that she was when she first arrived-ripping the rope from your hands, running and running around, pulling her head away when you reach out etc. SO there has to be something different for us to do. She gets the time and attention, no doubt about that.
but I am digressing...
I loaned the JohnLyons DVD to the barn owner/mustang owner. The first thing she said to me about it was BORING! He is not the charismatic Pat that we've gotten used to!

PasoBaby_CarolU

Nancy and Katy, what you are both describing sounds a lot like Buddy. He was run for HOURS by the trainer in the round pen. In three weeks he never turned in and never gave the man two eyes....yet drawing is how I catch him and I don't have this problem anymore. He will bolt out of your hands IF you do the wrong thing. And the wrong thing is try to move his hips or hold him there when he's scared.

If you do the Parelli Catch Me game RIGHT, you will have your draw. I think the best video I remember on this was on the Problem Solving DVD in the L&HB set. Just remember with these SENSITIVE horses, that your body language should be soft and easy. Not timid or shy, but soft and kind of slow. That is for Liberty.

If you remember way back in Level 1, Pat talks about the drive line (I think that is what he calls it). But it is a line down the front shoulder. Everything behind that line DRIVES the horse forward. So if you're heading towards the hips, even braced with the rope and the horse trying to hold it, you are driving the horse. This is why the horse is bolting away, you are actually driving the horse forward by going towards the hips.

Everything in FRONT of that line slows or stops the horse. What you need to learn how to do is control the shoulder of the horse. This is best done in a small area on your 12 foot line. Practice first at a walk and keep your energy down. You need to train YOURSELF first to move in front of and behind the line, until it is soft and easy. By how far you move and how fast, you can either slow or stop the horse. And it might be a good idea to practice first with a different horse then your reactive ones. They're a little more forgiving.

This is what Jamie had me do successfully with Buddy, who was the same way, would lower his head and bolt away when the pressure got too much for him. For years I worked him without ever going there and it avoided the problem, it didn't fix it. You need to fix it. It is like the S. Burns learning circles. If you never cross the line into the learning zone, you don't learn anything. That is where these horses are, keeping them and us safely inside their comfort zone, but not learning and solving the problem.

The other thing we did that really helped him was ground driving. Getting him used to being CONTROLLED from Zone 5. It wasn't easy and the first few times were pretty wild, but he calmly drives all over now.

greyhoundhorse

Carol-thank you!
You have helped tremendously. This is exactly what we need to do with the mustang.

Chablis

Yes_But_Neigh

jackspark

PasoBaby_CarolU

jackspark

greyhoundhorse

Yes, Carol, this mustang has gotten into this mind frame of bolt first and never ask questions. She can run all day! I especially worry about doing this in the heat of summer when we cannot get a hose on her. I am kinda out on helping the mare now, but wish some other tactics would be tried with her.

jackspark

My gelding, the over reactive one, always uses the right side first BUT thank goodness he recovers quickly. Doesn't continue for long; he seems to self correct but the initial reaction can be quite robust

cynthia peterson

While we are on the subject on one sided and "zone" problems...

On today's Dr Deb's forum , she has two extensive discussion on how to train to correct it. The two threads are

How much does a horse tilt on a circle?
and
Setting up the horse for haunches-in.

As tends to happen on own threads here, sometimes the title does reflect what happens on posts.

Most people pull the head in, or push the HQs out in the circle. In fact, almost everybody does! How do you get a bend (especially on the side the horse puts his ribs in to you? I have seen/heard many ways, always a force (read above) that upsets the horse more. You will get them to do it that way, but tenseness will not be a way to make it permanent and helpful to building up the horse body and mind wise. Her explanation is the best I have ever heard. I am sure it has heavy input from the way Tom Dorrance taught her.

Oddly enough, many people can't even see a crooked horse, let alone feel it. Sadly, Parelli never did address this very well.

Dr Deb Bennett's website is:

www.equinestudies.org

AlythLong

I was very happy on my Parelli journey when I went to a major event here in New Zealand and treated myself to the "Lyons on Horses" book, thinking it would give me another way of looking at natural horsemanship.

Boy, was I disillusioned. I was very happy until I got to page 17 and read his "3 second rule". My notes in the margin written at that time say "no - never, see what happens before he bites. Prevention"

So I have never read any further and have no wish to. I have also been turned off his articles, books etc since with his very "Christian" mindwashing. So if anyone wants this book send me a pm. Just not interested.....

Alyth

PasoBaby_CarolU

Katy, one of the easiest and fastest ways I found to reconnect with them when they are in the round coral and zoning out on adrenalin and running is mirroring. It gets into their eye and makes them wonder "What the hell"....and as soon as they do, you calmly bring them in and restart. Old 60's dances like the Jerk or the Pony work well for this. You could also do Jumping Jacks or something else BIG and totally unexpected. Not towards them, face away and ahead of where they are looking.

Cyndy, that is an interesting read. I am not sure I'd credit TD with that method, although knowing DD's past that is probably where she learned it. I have been taught it many times by Paso trainers who don't 'lunge' horses, but work them. Simply stated, the same period of time that you allow your horse to trot or canter around you strung out and only getting aerobic exercise, could be spent working the bend and suppling, building the hindquarters and 'driving' the horse to step under. Working the horse for the same period of time, but in frame. Similar exercises are used in much dressage training, often with draw reins or other set ups to help keep the horse in frame.

A nice thing to add to Dr. Deb's piece is that as the trainer, you need to pay attention to what the horse is doing, how he is moving and where he is placing his feet. Get the most out of his workout.

It is definitely a lot more work on your part. It also does something to you/your horse's relationship, and people may or may not want to do this depending on what they want. When you drive and work the horse for say 20 minutes, you are in charge and pushing Zone 4 (usually), a position of strength. The horse feels this as pressure. It depends on the horse if this is good or not. If you want a horse to feel driven all the time by you or not. I think some horses NEED this. I think other horses need less pressure and shouldn't be worked like this for extended periods IF you want them to be nice calm horses. All work and no play or no relaxation around the owner, isn't good for the horse mentally IMO.

There are two sides training horses, the body and the mind. I think many training methods are too results focused and don't consider the Relationship, beyond making sure the horse does what the owner wants. I think where PNH is different here, is that you try to make a lot of your session what the HORSE wants. All work and no 'nice time' can make horses sour and hard to catch...and who can blame them?

After my visits with the chiropractor this summer I try to do my regular sessions with the horses as PT. First is stretching in hand, flexing the different areas of the neck, stretching then the legs and top line, doing carrot stretches to the back and down between the legs. Then in hand doing small driving circles where I concentrate on bends and stepping under. Then some backing circles in hand. I find this takes about 10 minutes and it it stresses the horse's mentally to some degree.

After a nice massage, I then do about 20 minutes of relaxed jogging and cantering for aerobics. Lots of cookies, lots of rewards, etc. to preserve the relationship. Then I ride if I'm riding that horse that day. This is kind of my daily workout for them. The Chiro was impressed with the changes in the horses.