Meanwhile; back at the ranch. . . Supplements-

Newfman · Meanwhile; back at the ranch. . . Supplements-

So,

Who uses what kind of hoof supplements, and have you noticed any change, good or bad? (aside from the lack of change left in your pocket)

Are you making your own or buying commercially?

Leah

According to Dr Kellon and other well respected nutritionists, you are better served by balancing the horse's entire ration, not simply adding a hoof supplement.

karmikacres

We buy a custom mineral mix balanced to our hay and then add a couple essential amino acids (basically same as Uckele's Tri-Ammo).

We saw a tremendous difference in the quality and tightness of new hoof growth. Mike can explain and post pictures (I think we have some). That is what really sold us on the nutritional balancing.

Karen

whudson

Not sure if this counts as supplements or not...I have been giving garlic, kelp and sunflower seeds (BO). I have noticed a difference but I also changed the trim....I think at the same time. Trim changed only slightly.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Many years ago when Baby got laminitis and abscesses, I was recommended and used Farrier's Formula on her for a year. She hasn't had a lame day since. I picked FF because of a controlled study I read of several hoof supplements. FF had the best results for sound new growth.

Leah

Carol, FF has such good success because it has VERY high amounts of zinc and copper (notoriously low in most forages) and high amounts of lysine and methionine (amino building blocks most connected to hoof growth).

In our area a 'hoof supplement' comes very close to meeting the imbalances in forages (based on forages tests I have seen from my farm and others).

So, interestingly it is not so much the 'hoof' supplement part but those minerals just happen to be those lacking in forages!

IF I recall, FF does have pretty high iron (I think?)-so for those seeking a total balance, it can create some iron issues in some parts of the country.

(High iron suppresses zinc and copper-the very things you are seeking to add with the same supplement).

Of course, others believe the 'high iron' worry is simply a phobia as the iron that test in forages (according to these people) is not readily available to the horse so not a concern.

Just a little trivia for those reading along.

learningthedance

I used Leaps & Bounds, and Power Horse Trace Minerals. Had such good results on Gypsy, that everyone now get's a little extra 'bling" in their diets too.

I also use Biotic 8 from time to time.

Newfman

I was thinking more in the lines of Hoof specific supplements so as not to be cross posting from the Nutrition forum. My other half is a Kellon Grad and handles all of the hay analysis and hay supplementing.

We are using Nu-Hoof Maximizer from Select. I wanted my horses to get 20 to 30mg of Biotin and 1500 to 2000mg of Methionine per day. I get it in the Nu-Hoof Max product for about 20 per day. We have not yet found a good source for Biotin and Methionine individually in "small" bulk. The closest we have found is a Kilo of Biotin and 25Kilos of Methionine! That is enough for every horse on this forum as well as the savvy club forum! A bit much for what I need.

Anybody making their own and have a line on some Biotin and Methionine?

Yup Whudson, I sneak ours some BOSS as well. Hey, they love them so why not! The birds go through about 50# per month, plus the 40 wild turkeys that come marching in to mooch every day, so why not give some to the big critters!

We looked at FF, but I can't remember why we passed. I think it had something in it that was already handled in the hay supplements or something. May have been the price. Getting too old to remember.

We had been giving Omega Horseshine. Great product, put, I didn't see anything in it for the hoof, really, but does wonders for the skin and coat! We now grind our own flax so we don't have to pay the big bucks for the horse shine anymore.

Leah

Since Newf's SO is a Kellon grad, I am sure he knows this but I thought I would post for others reading.

There are no studies that confirm the Lysine/Methionine requirements for horses-or more specifically the ratio in which those two should be fed.

The best information we have is that from the NRC-it suggests the requirements should mimic the ratio found in the mare's milk. If I recall, that is a 2:1 ratio.

SO, unless you have had your forage tested (as Newf has) and know what amounts of lysine and methionine are in your forage, it is a bit futile to randomly add these amino acids.

Lysine is considered the first limiting amino acid-what this means is if a diet is not sufficient in lysine, no other amino acids can be produced or utilized.

Most grass hay diets are deficient in lysine-that is why the addition of hoof supplements often show positive changes-the horse now has lysine and can produce many of the amino acids that follow in different protein chains.

What the studies do not show is if there are any negtive impacts in feeding amino acids in inappropriate ratios (whatever those may be).

So for your average horseowners, adding a good basic supplement that provides the correct amounts and ratios of these two amino acids is a good start.

Uckele's Tri Amino acid provides the correct amounts and ratios-though it can be pricey.

Some ration balancers do a good job-others do not.

Source Focus HF is a great product for the aminos and zinc/copper but it is high in iodine-a mineral that can cause crestiness in some horses.

So, more info than anyone wanted but hopeful interesting to some.

To my knowledge there is no source for just raw methionine.

Another interesting tidbit is the obsession with biotin for hooves-more recent studies have discouraged focus on biotin and encouraged focus on overall mineral balance, with a particular attention to lysine/methionine and the relationship and ratio of iron/zinc/manganese/copper.

The NRC suggests this ration at a 4:4:4:1...I can't recall if Kellon uses this ratio or a 3:3:3:1

Leah

Also regarding grinding you own flax-again not for Newf's benefit as i am sure he knows but a warning to others.

Home ground flax is not stable and will go rancid rather quickly. So if you choose this route, don't grind more than you can use in a short period of time.

Omega Horseshine and Nutraflax from Horstech are safe stabilized sources of flax that have a shelf life of 6 months-reducing the worry over rancid flax seed.

There is also some worry over the presence of cyanide compounds in flaxseed-my understanding is this is not detrminental to the horse and will be reduced by using one of the above mentioned products or boiling flaxseed prior to use.

That said, many owners I know feed ground raw flas with no issues as other studies find this cyanide compound can not impact the horse.

Another issue worth mentioning is the presence of phytoestrogens in flaxseed (also found in soybean and alfalfa products)....again, some horses react strongly to these while others do not.

Flax oes wonderful things for coats but if you start feeding it and have issues, perhaps your horse is sensitive to the phytoestrogens.

Leah

Another point worth mentioning that relates to the feeding of flax and Black Oil Sunflower seeds-the relationship of Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids.

Flax is often chosen as a supplement because the ratio of 3-6 is the same as that found in grass-so according to some, the ideal ratio for horses.

Black Oil seeds have a reverse ratio-with an insanely high amount of Omega 6 fattyacids.

For some horses it doesn't matter-but others respond negatively to the high amounts of Omega 6

Omega 3's are considered anti-inflammatory and 6s are considered inflammatory

Some horses with issues like arthritis do not respond well to increasing omega 6 fatty acids (like those found in BOSS-the oil seeds)-others do fine.

Both are good source of fats so that is what creates the shine-but if you start feeding oil seeds and find your horse changes, keep in mind he may be one that is reacting to the increased amounts of Omega 6 fatty acids and is having an inflammatory response.

whudson

Hmm....Interesting about the BOSS and Omega 6's. My horse seems to be doing fine with them though. But he doesn't like them, I have to mix it with his grain or he won't eat it. so do you all think that flax might be the better option?

I read somewhere and not sure where...that if you feed BOSS, garlic, kelp and apple cider vinegar, the horse would receive all the minerals he requires for good hoof health. Again, I'm not sure of my source

but it is the reason I started him on those things except apple cider...he hates that as well.

At the barn where I board there is massive amounts of iron in the water. Buckets have to be cleaned every 2-3 days to remoce the sediment that sticks to the sides. That doesn't sound good to me..what do you all think of that? Any thoughts? Hit me!

Do horses absorb iron in water..ok dumb question as I'm sure they must but am asking for the sake of learning

fairhavenranch

Newfman

Kellon would be so proud.

I never realized a fist full of BOSS was so detrimental to my horses, that's what...two tablespoons?

Too tired to respond to the rest of the crap.

Thanks Fairhaven, I will check it out. Exactly what I had hoped for.

We grind on a per meal basis. Flax seed whole has a long shelf life.

Leah

Newfman

Fairhaven, thanks for the link, I forwarded it to her inbox.

As far as the Biotin in a 50 pound bag though, I am wondering what (if)
it is mixed with. We found Pure Biotin but it was sold by the kilo and was about $1300 per kilo! When she told me that I said, "Wow! So how much for just a dime bag?!?!?"

At 30 mg per day, and 1,000,000mg per Kilo, that would be 33,333 doses per kilo. Just seems like a bit more than we will use at this time

Leah

Leah

Newfman

Did you wake up in that mood or haven't you gone to bed yet!

Newfman

The "crap" was the tude, not the info.

Grasshoppah, use knowledge fo good, not evol!

(wow, it is really hard to type a chinese/english accent!)

Leah

I see that oh kind one.

THEN you mentioned flaxseed and whudson mentioned garlic, kelp and BOSS...so I talked about those topics.

Sometimes on forums, topics go in different directions-in case you didn't notice.

And you mentioned home grinding flax without mentioning the rancid element-we DO have people reading this forum for info. *I* felt that worthy of mentioning since you did not.

I am sorry-must I ask your permission to respond on all threads from now on?

The last I looked Carol was the owner/moderator of this forum.

Newfie, keep in mind I have been responding to nutrition and hoof topics LONG before this forum existed and not solely on this forum.

Again, when I add something it is not to hurt your iddy biddy feelings-it is to add information-something most people trying to learn appreciate.

So let me ask you this--your wife studied Kellon-as a good student of the hooves, I am certain you are familiar with Katy Watts.

Which one is right and wrong? Are you aware they do not see eye to eye on all aspects of nutrition? So must we choose? Is so, which one?

OR what about presenting information from both of these well respected women and allowing and owner to then make an informed decision.

OR add this-I know I and others on this forum are reps for Dynamite-a totally DIFFERENT view on nutrition-some may follow the information provdied by Lindsey McLean of VitaRoyal...

again ALL different studies and different conclusions-so which one is right?

Or is it ALL crap simply because *I* mentioned it.

Wow, to think we could have this exact same discussion on all the different schools of trimming. Oh that's right-what I have to say is crap in that area too.

Leah

PasoBaby_CarolU

Dear Leah and Dennis...could you both PLEASE stop personal attacks and snipes at each other. I am going to declare a 48-hour no-fire zone in here...and see if you two can resist the urge to dig at each other, regardless of how justified you feel in your return fire.

boxing

PLEASE, sheath those swords and put on your halos...48 hours, you can DO THIS!

angel12

I should mention that I used the FF 15 years ago, before the days of feed analysis, balancing, and specific supplements. I do agree that THAT is the proper way to add supplements (for people too), but I also realize that it's a bit of a pain, and if you aren't severely over-supplementing in one thing or another, there is no harm done. I also find that those supplement companies really GOUGE you for specific minerals or amino acids. Sometimes a commercial formula is a lot easier and cheaper if you have a number of horses to feed.

Leah

I know-FF has been around forEVER.

Isn't it funny how something that works is actually 'correct' LOL

As far as mineral balancing-that was kind of my point earlier (well one of them)

Right now Kellon is the all-that-and-more. Especially with the "Ramey crowd"-a few years back it was Katy Watts when Pete referred to her-

anyway the two do not agree-Katy is not into the micro-balancing-she goes more for the make there there is enough of each and the body sorts it out.

Another example, Dynamite supplements, have TINY amounts of minerals compared to the NRC guidelines and many people swear by those products (and the minerals are not even close to the correct ratio).

So it is not so simple (in my opinion) as quote Kellon or so and so and the truth is revealed.

The same goes for hooves, training or anything. Parelli is not the final jeopardy answers, Pete is not the final jeopardy answer, etc.

BUT even so, having some info in your rolodex-like soy sensitivity or flax allergies or whatever can be helpful in helping some horses.

Next topic? Neck threadworms and the connection to summer itch and gnat allergies.

Newfman

.

HELLO AMERICANS! This is Paul Harvey. Stand by...for NEWS!

The following is a direct quote. . . ."Biotin deficiency has been implicated in some populations of horses chronically affected with poor hoof quality, such as soft

white line and crumbling, fissured horn at the bearing border of the hoof wall (Josseck et al., 1995; Zenker et al., 1995).

Daily supplementation with 20mg improved hoof wall integrity (via macroscopic assesment) following at least 9 months of

supplementation, but not growth rate (Josseck et al., 1995), and improved hoof structure (via histological assesment) and

hoof wall tensile strength following 33 and 38 months of supplementation (Zenker et al., 1995). Previous observations from

uncontrolled field studies suggested 10-30 mg. Biotin/d for not less than 6-9 months improved hardness and integrity of

hooves previously of poor quality (Comben et al., 1984; Kempson, 1987). Using Scanning electron microscopy, Kempson

(1987) identified two types of defects in hoof samples from horses having thin friable horn. The first type of defect was

characterized by a loss of structure and horn in the stratum externum of the hoof wall, whereas the second was

characterized by a loss of tubular structure in the inner layers of the hoof wall. the first defect appeared responsive to

biotin supplementation (~15mg/d). The second defect, which consisted of approximately 94% of the affected horses studied,

was thought due to dietary protein and calcium defficiency. This work suggests that some horses with thin friable hoof wall

may benefit from dietary Biotin supplementation, while others may not.

Buffa et al. (1992) reported increased hoof wall growth rate and hoof hardness in Thoroughbred and thoroughbred-cross

horses fed 15mg/d for ten months as compared with controls fed 0.81 mg/d. Reilly et al. (1998) reported a fifteen percent

higher hoof wall growth rate in ponies supplemented with 0.12 biotin/kg BW/d for 5 months as compared to controls fed

0.0015 mg naturally occuring biotin/kg BW/d.

Toxicity

Effects of excess biotin have not been described in the horse. Fetal resorption has been reported in rats injected

subcutaneously with 50 to 100mg/kg BW. Poultry and swine can tolerate at least 4 to 10 times their dietary requirement

and probably much more (NRC 1987).

Requirements

No controlled studies have been published establishing a dietary biotin requirement above that supplied by intestinal

synthesis. As stated in the deficiency section, there is some evidence that biotin supplementation may be useful in

improving hoof integrity in certain horse populations, particularly those affected with poor hoof quality. However, no

difinitive requirement for biotin has been determined."

Page 121 Nutrient Requirements of Horses, 6th revised edition 2007.

And Now you know. . . .the REST of the story. Good day?

.

Newfman

Sorry Carol, you had posted while I was transcribing so I missed it. That was more of a nostalgia thing for us old fahts anways. Just really liked Pauls show.

Speaking of which...have you ever heard Paul Jr. do the Paul Harvey show?!?!? Sounds exactly like his old man did in 1970! (Yea! We had radios bck then you smarty butts!)

Anyhow...meanwhile, back at the ranch.....

whisperingwindfarms

Newfman

Really Erin! Keifer! What happened to Harmon????? You are soooo hard to please!

Leah

Uh. duh.

I never said there were not studies that supported biotin supplementation...what I said was the focus over it.

Many horse owners literally obsess over biotin-some supplements have 50-100 units per serving.

What *I* said was focusing on it-particularly without considering the role of the other minerals and amino acids.

it all ties on together.

*shrugs*

It is also worth noting that the articles and studies sited are all over 15 years old. Some closer to 20 years old...though still worthy without a doubt.

There have, however, been some different ideas proposed in nutrition since the early to mid 90's.

Not discrediting it all-it is just not the one road or final jeopardy answer.

whisperingwindfarms

Newfman

I'm a fan of Burn Notice as well. Kinda' done with 24. Got a little too predictable for me, and Since Keifer doesn't do the same thing for me as he does for you....

. I told you I met him on a sound stage working on a Fox gig one day, no? He seemed a pretty cool dude. But then, Jeri Ryan walked in and that was the last thing I remember!

I'm really looking forward to Criminal Minds!!!!! A.J. Cook.....stole my heart. LOL

Leah

And as some additional thought, quoting from that same NRC:

"No controlled studies have been published establishing a dietary biotin requirement above that supplied by intestinal synthesis. As stated in the deficiency section, there is some evidence that biotin supplementation may be useful in improving hoof integrity in certain horse populations, particularly those affected with poor hoof quality. However, no definitive requirement for bioton has been determined.

(emphasis added)

*shrugs*

Newfman

Yup, that is what I transcribed. You know...the "rest" of the story. Figured people can infer for themselves. Figured they needed more than one sentence to go by.

Not trying to sway their judgement. I am certain not everyone wants to go out and buy an 80 dollar book, especially a 2007 revision filled with old stuff.

Leah

Newfman

ouch.

fairhavenranch

My God! Did you two stay up all night!

ROFLMAO!!!!

Carry on...............

***************************************************

Erin: I thought you were marrying Mike Dooley?

Leah

Newfman

I was thinking about the readers here actually.

*shrugs*

Newfman

Who the heck is Mike Dooley!!!????

I don't think i am going to move to South Carolina Erin. Way too much competition!

Leah

Erin, how long have you lived in SC?

Horseshoe Creek

Okay, I'm still lost as to what would be a good route for my gelding and his crappy hooves. Easy keeper - on pasture or grass hay only - not cresty. Hay analysis last year showed nothing outstanding - going to get another one done this year. We tend to be in a dryer environment so going to make sure NCS is included in the analysis. Vitamin supplement (VTM 20) added as per vet's recommendation with no improvement. Prone to sensitive frogs in the back despite Oxine soaks, hooves are a never ending spewer of ridges. I have him at an indoor this winter and the sand arena has helped his frogs a lot but the ridges are still there. Trim is good, flares are gone, approx 3/4" collateral groove at the heel, about 1/2" in the front. Has just improved the front depth since the flares grew out.
Anyway, I'm also curious to see if FF would help. Has anyone tried Carb-X or would the magnesium and calcium in FF do the same thing?
I also wonder if a blood sample or hair analysis would reveal anything?

Chris

whisperingwindfarms

Leah

whisperingwindfarms

Leah

Ah...well that blows my theory. I, and couple of other Dynamite people (for the record I use different products now) found that our horses needed a different mineral profile than those provided in Dynamite.

We are all in the SE-so that is why I asked. I was wondering if you had been living in the SE long or were new to the area.

Ah well...it was worth a shot to find a connection!

Nashama

The best source of hoof food we have found is a combination of whole oats and rosehip shells, and a balanced mineral ration. Not being able to test feeds, we tend to balance the horses then feed them. It works in our situation. We had one riddled with seedy toe after abscessing on the Coleby diet where we fed around $2K worth of hoof supplements trying to find something, anything, including biotin, and we ended up with Rosehip shells being the best.

As for EK, she might be the flavour of the month in some circles, but she's not as respected as many seem to think she is. There is a little bit of a problem with putting her graduates into multi-disciplinary teams.

Autumn

Late as usual, but wanted to put my 2 cents in about kelp. Roosters neck blew up the last time I gave it to him, iodine overload, scared the crap outta me, won't ever feed that stuff again. Flax seed, I grind at feeding time in a cheap coffee grinder. If it smells fishy, don't feed it!

Edited to add, I know I am sick but I enjoy the bantering between Newfie & Leah. I learn a lot.

Nashama

Yep, despite being well on my way to qualifying in some traditional practices, I will not feed seaweed meal/kelp unless i have an iodine deficiency. Once again when the horses were on the Coleby diet, I CAUSED iodine problems, and I was feeding a tiny amount, as well as the blocking of selenium uptake with I caused the yellow sulphur. (I blame no one else but myself for killing my mare with the Coleby diet in 2002 in this drought)

Leah

Horseshoe Creek

I will get pics tomorrow when I go to the arena. I did notice today that pressing slightly to see about the digital cushion got a reaction in one hoof. Now to go find out what that means.

Thanks Leah.

Chris

Leah

You are welcome Chris-

If you are getting that reaction, as you mention, then I do think a quick look at photos would be great.

It is not I am challenging you! Please don't think so-it is just sometimes fresh eyes can pick up something that you see everyday so you don't see.

If you would, please get the photos like Mike shows in the sticky on this forum.

Side shot, front shot and sole shot.

creekwood

There are phytoestrogens in flax too. When I had Quinn on stall rest and Platinum + Osteon, his beautiful feet went to hell. His frogs shrunk, he had wall seperation & he lost a lot of concavity. Now he's back on Northwest Supplement, which is designed for our area & the hay we use (eastern WA timothy). His feet are better, about 90% where they were before. He still has a small toe callous. My mare blooms with PP (although she's only on it during endurance season), but Quinn can't deal with soy or flax. He also turned waaaay spazzier than normal.

creekwood

You can click on each supplement to read reviews. Pretty interesting stuff. http://www.smartpakequine.com/Pro...mp;cm_sp=EHP-_-Banner3-_-HoofSups

jokersmama

Pyrgirl

Pyrgirl

Oh, and just wanted to add this to the flax discussion - I use chia seed It doesn't go rancid.

Clarissa

whisperingwindfarms

PasoBaby_CarolU

Actually Erin, I disagree with your last statement. For many people cost IS a factor, and the statement seems to imply that more expensive things are better then more affordable things, when in reality they often are the exact same, if not better. Supplements, herbs, and the claims made by the manufactures of such are unregulated, not even tested to ensure that the ingredients on the label are what is inside.

A funny example I see is in beauty products, with all the high cost moisturizers and fancy additives, nothing has ever been proven to work as well as cheap, affordable, off-the-shelf, safflower oil for moisturizing skin.

While I agree on one hand that supplements should not be added unless needed, you could spend your entire year's income testing your horses and feeds to see what they are short in or what they need. Try to find a blood test to see if you horse is short on fatty acids. Yes horses need trace minerals...but how much testing are you going to do to see which ones they're short in, or that are already present in adequate quantities in their current diet?

People spend a fortune on supplements and others don't spend a dime on anything except salt blocks. Most of the time, their horses are just as healthy.

A friend here adopted an old horse from her rancher neighbor to keep it from going to slaughter. The hose was already 34, had never had a shot, worming, supplement or even decent hay...lived in a sage brush and range grass pasture. The horse didn't even have a name. She got his teeth done for the first time in his life and he lived 4 more years.

whisperingwindfarms

Newfman

Newfman

Carol

Leah

*sigh* here I go again.

Erin, not to pick on you-I know you believe whole heartedly in Dynamite and the principles they teach...but I have issue with presenting their teachings as the truth.

Regarding amino acid chelates-I happen to use them...but are you aware there are also studies showing there is no significant difference in absorption of amino acid chelates (also called proteinates, I believe), other organic minerals and inorganic minerals.

Take magnesium for example. Magnesium has been shown to help some metabolic horses. Many companies press to sell supplements with the higher costing chelated magnesium.

I know several trainers, trimmers, owners and barn managers that have found equal success feeding magnesium oxide-the inorganic form of magnesium.

Some horses actually respond BETTER to the inorganic form!

My horse Polo is one of those.

SO, the live results of MagOx show that the studies can be wrong.

SO-what can someone say to that?

I mean that sincerely. You can't argue with the truth staring you in the face with a non-cresty neck. LOL

Not directed at you, but owners, people, the world in general really needs to apply a little more common sense and a little less method.

whisperingwindfarms

whisperingwindfarms

Leah

worth the effort? To what? To realize your statements regarding chelates as superior is not 100% fact?

what the heck?

I agree studies show things all over the place-that is my point!

To quote something as the truth when it is not proven without a doubt seems incomplete to me.

Particularly when something that costs less than the truth and effective is available.

It is nothing personal...kind of odd you took it that way.

I would like to ask those on this forum WHY people get so darn twisted when they pronounce the truth and I offer some simple thoughts of facts that prove there may not yet be the truth in that area.

I suppose anyone with any information that could create thought or provide information is shunned on this place now?

So sorry.

Let me clarify. Using inorganic forms of minerals is a waste of money. Only chelates work. If you spend more it works better.

Would someone please tell all the horses doing fine on different mineral forms they are wrong.

Gosh and here I thought presenting opposing ideas was a valuable tool in learning.

karmikacres

I am with Leah on this one, you really need to know your starting point before adding any supplement.

Our best results for any and all issues has been balanced nutrition.

Can you get results from shotgun supplements? Absolutely, but you run the risk of throwing other things out of balance. You can also save money by only adding what you need.

Mike

Newfman

karmikacres

Well, I would say any results on a supplement would be biased by that horses nutritional and environmental conditions. What works well for one, may be detrimental for another. A supplement that hits a few lacking elements for a specific horse may have benefit.

We actually had a situation with a major manufacturers mineral supplement where the more we added, the worse the horses looked. This was due to the iron in the mix.

I know what you are trying to get at, but unless you know the nutritional start point, any supplement is just a stab in the dark.....

Mike

Leah

Leah

Newfman

It promotes an opinion.

That is comprehension.

Nashama

karmikacres

Nashama

Are you certain you want to do that with someone that is a spatial analyst with 20 years of soil science and civil engineering, 30 years of agriculture and animal husbandry, and was pretty much raised on farms?

On our place (3500ha of cropping, 10ha for the 6 research horses) we test only to confirm what we already know. We already have out base line from soil testing. Physical observation have already told us the state of health of any crop grown, and soaking hay for 20 minutes will give me the sugar content. The only thing hard to tell is protein, but, by all means, send me some samples and the accompanying soil analysis and climate statistics for the growing period.

The problem with feed testing is it can only give you a start point. If, for some reason, the horse's gut does not pick up particular nutrients for a physical reason, you are still going to have a problem which no amount of feed testing will pick up. You still need to use your eyes and observe the small changes within the season and the herd with each new batch of feed or paddock. It's called a field trial in serious research circles.

Nashama

We take an holistic approach which is probably from my years on farms and studying agriculture. Overall you look at the herd and look for anomolies when one individual has an issue. If it is a young animal that should have no problems, then there may be an overall problem that the older animals are tolerating better. If it's an older animal with a known chronic condition and the rest of the herd is in good eye, coat and hoof, then I would be less likely to think that the problem applies to the whole herd. You then pick that individual out of the herd and work on 'why'.

Farmers take this approach with large herds and flocks but it often gets lost among the marketing and fashions of horse husbandry. If you have a herd of 3000 cattle or sheep, you are not going to start testing the lot, you look at the overall health of the mob in that particular paddock then start picking out the anomalies, being the individual animals which have a problem.

Hooves are something that need to be fed from within, which is back to Dennis's question, but you can overcomplicate it and you can easlily miss the cause of the problem and just treat the symptoms. We did for 10 years with our old gelding, Rhydian. They symptoms are allergies, skin breakouts, vulnerability to cythestomes, alternating between obesity and drastic weight loss, hoof abscesses and grumpiness. No matter what we did he would be good for a while then become ill again. The cause is a broken hip.

If, long term, you just can't get one horse right when the rest of the herd is in good health then there may be other issues within the horse preventing efficient use of the feed it is provided with, which is where the holistic approach proves it's worth.

PasoBaby_CarolU

To be totally honest, I've seen more severe medical problems from overfeeding supplements [selenium (hoof wall slough off), Vitamin A toxicity (death), and one case of a multivitamin pack (melted a horse's hooves) are the ones I'm thinking of] then I've seen problems from deficiencies. Our area is already too high in Calcium (both water and hay). Adding more in a trace mineral supplement is a total waste, and potentially harmful to the horse.

I am with Mike in that we should add only what we know we need, and chances are pretty good that your horse's feed is complete and you don't need to add anything unless you have a horse with metabolic problems, or an older horse that isn't metabolizing well. Other then that, the only reason to supplement anything more then salt is for performance, and I think only a few here are in high competition to need additional supplements. Electrolytes, probios, some others should be given as needed.

Before anyone spends extra money on chelated minerals, perhaps reading about them is a good idea:

http://www.supplementquality.com/z_askexpert/chelated.html

-------------

You know NONE of this is a reason to fall on your side and die over. The science of equine nutrition is evolving. What you believe adamantly today will change next year. Leah feeding Dynamite is one example. Many years ago I argued ardently that excess protein in alfalfa caused laminitis. I was wrong...but still know people who believe this. A friend recently had a farrier pick up his tools and leave her place when he saw her get a load of alfalfa hay.

Horseshoe Creek

Pics of Spike's hooves posted on new thread - Hoof ridge/lines...

Thanks Leah and whoever else wants to chime in.

Chris

Nashama

karmikacres

Clarissa

As a simplistic answer I found the various min sups made for the east coast of Australia by Kohnke's to be worth their investment (if I can only afford them lol). They have been specially formulated for the conditions generally found along our coastal strip including a bit inland. When I used one type for Sonny, I noticed a vast improvement across his whole body. But they are very expensive.

However I would also say that it would be virtually impossible to have a 100% balanced horse 100% of the time. I'm sure nature has factored in a large tolerence to allow for the discrepency of differences in nutritional availablity between all seasons & also thinking about how far a horse would range across the year.

So to me it's not vital that the horse be thoroughly correct all the time so long as generally across the seasons there is a balance.

As karmic said hay from the same paddock can be different at various times of the year due to seasonal effects on soil biology, plant type, growing conditions.

Newfman

We have the benefit of getting all of our hay from the same field, from the same cut. We then Sample about 20 or so random bales and mix it up. Our Hay analysis is more of an average for the hay.

So far, so good.

In New England, "Horse properties" can be as small as 1/8th acre

and they typidcally don't have storage for more than 10 bales or so. They buy what they can find and from whomever, whenever. There is no way to balance their diet. Can't keep doing a $125 analysis on 60 dollars worth of hay at a time. Besides, the horses would have eaten it all by the time the analysis came in. This is probably 70% of the horses up here. (just an eyeballed estimate). Out of those, 60% are lucky to even get enough appropriate hay. Seriously doubt they are going to get supplemented by anything. Kind of sad.

A man stopped by the house last night and tried to get me to take two horses that his daughter knows is being destroyed at the end of the month if they don't find homes. He doesn't know the horses personally, just tired of seeing his daughter crying over them. Pretty sad. So, I think many horses that do get a shotgun supplement from some namebrand bucket, might be better off than they are given credit for. Who knows, maybe some are loved to death.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I'm going to weigh in on the hay also. There is a lot to be said about knowing the soils, grasses, hays in an area as Jules does. Before specific lab analysis was available here, the Soil Conservation Service was how I learned about the calcium in our area, also what to add to the fields with fertilizer to improve the hay or pasture. I think this knowledge base is great and definitely of value the majority of the time. I think you can get by with this knowledge most of the time.

I think when you have metabolic issues, or if you want to supplement and don't know what, then hay analysis is necessary. It costs less then $100 to get a good analysis of your hay. This is the cost of one bucket of trace minerals that you may/may not need. It does get more expensive when you are feeding more then one kind of hay or hay from more then one cutting. And yes, when you are watching it and it's critical, it will vary widely from recent rain or watering, time of day it was cut, and how long it's been since the field was fertilized. I feed my IR mare ONLY the hay that has been analyzed, and all my others get a mix of it and alfalfa that I have not had analyzed.

It does seem to me that we live in an interesting time. On one hand you have horses that are starving from neglect and/or the financial straights of their owners, and on the other hand horses that people love so much, they HAVE TO give them the best. Sadly, if all owners did it right, it would never be an issue, but people do kill horses with love, overfeeding is the principle culprit, and unnecessary supplements another. For some reason, it is very human to believe that if a little is good, a lot is better. Hence you get cases like Jules' friend who killed her horse with salt of all things. Perhaps people who just HAVE to feed additional supplements sent that money instead to their local vet or shelter to be used on feed and supplements for the first group of horses, then all owners would be happy and their horses a lot healthier.

Jules, I am not against all supplements or formulated feeds. I am only against the unnecessary feeding of things that are unneeded. I am REALLY against supplements and herbs that don't come with certified analysis. If I can't read a full list of ingredients and certified analysis, I don't buy it. The "natural" food/herb industry can/does drive me nuts (both human and animal) because they can/do say and write just about anything with no studies and people believe it and act on it. There is no science and no accountability. It's kind of funny because I do believe in nature, and staying close to a natural diet. Most of what a horse needs is found right there, without adding anything. So, I'm not against 'natural food, actually just the opposite.

Nashama

Last word on the subject as I think we will have to agree to disagree. We don't grow our hay. We buy it. Horse hay does not grow very well in drought. The last lot was sold off as cattle feed. Testing showed what we already knew looking at it, smelling it and giving it a bucket test - the sugars and proteins were far too high for horses.

I am not going to argue about the value of knowing and observing your horse and it's environment when maintaining health. If people do not believe that's important and think lab tests can replace theior own responsibility for that, then they will learn the hard way.

Anyways, I am off to treat Rhydian, who's immune problems have flared again. And no, I am not going to reach for the feed test kit. A physical inspection of the horse showed that he actually needs bodywork and one of the others has kicked his bad hip, aggravating his liver and kidney dysfunction. When Aslaan (who has a sore chest) and Delfire (who is lame) were asked, they both reckoned Rhydian hit them first.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Ok Jules...and my last word. I fully agree that you will see (if you're observant) the problems and shortcomings of feed in your horses...dull coat, lack of energy, poor hooves...etc. But, there are two things to be said about this.

First, you have to know enough about minerals, amino acids, fats, in fact all nutrition and its affect with different body functions, to interpret what you are seeing and apply it to dietary changes. I honestly think you may be the only person on this forum with such a knowledge base. I know I certainly don't.

Secondly, once you see the problem (e.g., laminitic hooves, poor coat) may be weeks or months after the problem started and needed to be corrected. It takes 3 months for a horse to grow connected hoof, 6 months to regrow enough to bear weight, and up to a year to fully replace the lamina, wall, sole...etc. Why wait until you see it, if you can prevent it in the first place?

I have learned the hard way to be diligent. I think 98% of the time you don't need this diligence...most horses will do fine on good diets with slow changes and salt. It's those 2% I'm thinking about.