| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| imagele |
My ramblings about Bucks clinicThese are not my notes, just things that were running around in my head for the last few days.Buck made it clear - what he is teaching is NOT a general horse program suitable for everyone. He is riding and teaching the Californio tradition where the ultimate result is a straight up bridle horse capable of working cattle on the range with a high degree of precision. If you dont want to do that - that is fine with him - but it is the ultimate aim of what he is teaching and the students need to be aware of that fact. It is what he knows, it is what he does with his horses, it is what he teaches. I think a lot of the basics of what he teaches would help any horse/rider. Over the years he has been teaching he has become a bit of an expert in dealing with spoilt horses and all the many ways people find to spoil horses. Apparently, until he started teaching clinics, he had no idea how many ways there were to spoil a horse or how many spoilt unhappy horses there are out there. He appears to me to "DO WHAT IT TAKES" to deal with what he can deal with in a colt start or a clinic situation. There are some things he cannot change - like give that horse a new human - right now - forever. He took away a leg with one horse during the colt start. It took him about 30 minutes to change that horses idea of how he functioned in a group of horses - for the next two days anyway. Given the size and speed of that change I think it will be ongoing, probably for life. IME when horses change like that it is permanent, they do not revert back. I did not know until my horse made a similar change in his beahviour in a herd a few years ago that horses even could make it, or that the horse making the change really wanted to and needed to make it to live without that fear all the time. That fear permeated through everything else my horse did - with people or without them. It took my horse 5 years to make the change after I got him. This horse took 20 - 30 minutes. If i could go back in time and give my horse the same change in 20 - 30 minutes I would prefer it happened Buck's way. I watched my horse live like that for a long time, not knowing he could be helped to change, how to help him or the other horses he was taking it out on. The only saving grace was that my horse was very slow - he could not often catch the others to beat them up when he felt like beating on something for an hour or so. If he had been faster he would have been living in isolation for those 5 years and probably still living in isolation because that would not have helped the issue at all, just avoided it. That is the first time I have watched something like that technique used and felt - overwhelmingly - that "everything is going to be alright for this horse" as it was happening. The change Buck made was FOR the horse this time. It will be with him 24/7 whenever he is around other horses. The other times I have seen that take away a leg technique or the laying down technique used it was more for the human than the horse. Yes the horse needed it to stay out of the dog food can because it was living in a human world but the real reason for doing it was more about keeping humans safe when they did something with the horse. This time round it was done purely for the horses, nothing much to do with people at all. That horse still had issues about/around people, it did not solve those, I dont think Buck intended to do that based on his comments during the process. It will take a new person on the end of its leadrope to solve some of those horse/people issues or "ills on the end of the leadrope" as Buck put it at one point. Buck did a start with those issues, so did the person he called in to help with this horse - but what needs to happen is the person on the other end of the leadrope needs to change before that horse can make a permanent change and be safe around people. A colt start is not the time or place to get into all that unfortunately. That colt start, and some of what happened with that paint horse in particular, emphasised again for me what an art it is to start a horse well. All the horses in the colt start were in a much better place mentally and emotionally after 3 days than the horses I saw in a 5 day PNH colt start years ago. This might be answered on the two bridle horse DVDs I have not yet had a chance to watch but for those who have ridden with Buck or Ray or anyone else who has talked about this - Why is there a left lead, right lead or neutral in the trot but only a left lead or a right lead - no neutral - at a walk ? I tend to switch off when the footfall topic comes up because - unlike most things to do with horses - any time I spend analysing foot falls etc just confuses me when it comes time to ride. I can feel and call cadence correctly a lot of the time if I DONT think about it too much at any time. I found that as soon as I start thinking about it (even while I was away from the horses) I could not feel it or call it correctly anymore so I stopped even trying to think about it. I thought Buck was getting into one of those footfall discussions so I switched off. When I realised he was not getting into all this I did switch back on to what Buck was saying. I understood Bucks explanation for the trot, but why no neutral at the walk ? Is it that the stride sequence for walk does not make neutral possible ? Very basic explanation only please, if you go into too much detail about things like foot falls I'll have to switch off again. That discussion here about the one rein stop a while back and what to use when - rein first, then inside leg to get the HQ rolling over then take your leg off and wait for the horse to relax was how I was taught to do it years ago and it is how Buck did it in this clinic. He did not make a big point of it with this horsemanship class but the ORS is about the HQ rollover WORKING !!! to help that horse relax and turn loose. It is not about nose to boot. Nose to boot just helps you - perhaps - get the HQ rollover working. Nose to boot is also to be the most comfortable place you can make it for your horse. he really emphasised getting horses relaxed and comfortable in this position. With the both groupgs he did not go into a lot of the detail I am used to hearing about what to do when and what various movements should exactly look like - just showed it - well - made a couple of comments along the way about how horses feet should or should not, might or might not move and left people to it. Buck covered a lot of ground for anyone new to Buck or most of these concepts and the horsemanship group was not getting and utilisizing - as a whole there were some individuals who did - all of what he was saying anyway so even more information along those lines would have been a bit pointless. He would say something like "have your hands low and wide to teach a soft feel", you could look around and find at least 5 people with their hands well above their waist and narrow. He talked about riding the horse on a loose rein between picking up a soft feel. More than a couple rode around for 3 afternoons without getting to the buckle even once with their horse. The way to hold a coil of rein in a single hand, even when riding with two hands, was new to me. I had always put the coil in the middle of the rein if I wanted to use just one hand, not off to one side. I have always struggled with finding a smooth way to adjust the length of my reins too. I will be trying this idea. It might be just what I have been searching for in terms of being able to adjust the reins length easily. He teaches the HQ rollover, FQ through as a backwards movement not a fowards movement like I was initially taught. I have always found the backwards version easier than the forwards version. The comments he made about the hand position coming directly OUT from your hip sideways as you switch over from HQ to FQ might just be what I have been looking for to get rid of the pause in the flow I have always had with this. The pause is not there on teh ground and it sometimes was not there ridden but I could never figure out why. I think this is the why. He talked about getting in time with the feet and occasionally about which foot you needed to be in time with as you did the movements. He did a beautiful simulation about WHY we need to be in time with the feet - if we are not we are basically tripping the horse up. Even if all you do is ride freestyle you still need to be in time with the feet if you dont want to trip up your horse. He told people they were late, very late, in their timing sometimes. He offered no suggestions about how to change this with most though. he did not have people counting cadence or actually have them using that rock on a string way of attaching the reins to the feet to exactly place all 4 feet like i was expecting he would at some stage - maybe that is for the more advanced horsemanship class. Buck just talked about it, he did not send them out to do it. Now I know where Ken probably got that rock on a string analogy from. Most of the horses/riders there were not ready to do this anyway IMO. He talked about posting the trot - and referred all the riders to the horses shoulders to figure out which diagonal they should be rising with. Buck does use phases, just does not call them that. There are three phases - the most invisble, softest ask you can think of, show the horse whatever it is you are going to use to follow through - then follow through well enough to get the job done. All to be done within 1 1/2 seconds. If you take longer than this you might as well follow through tomorrow for all the good it will do for the horse. If you dont show the horse or your follow through is too big for the horse - it is YOUR FAULT there was a mess made where the defaceation hit the spinning blades. If you have a dull horse it is YOUR FAULT. If you hand your horse over to Buck it would be a bit like handing it over to Pat. It WILL NOT stay dull for long. I tend to laugh at a lot of the complaints I read on the SC forum or here about Pat not working with dull (oftenLBI) horses too often and showing waht he would do. What Pat would do, IME anyway, is have them NOT like that so fast we do not see what he does other than a couple of dustups right at the beginning. For Pat to demo what we should do he has to ride the horse as a dull horse for much, much, much longer than he usually would. Buck is the same in one respect. One or two dustups and it is over - no more dull horse. The only difference is Buck wont even try to demonstrate what anyone else should do. If you want to follow through to get your horse to go connect with whatever you are using as your final phase on the hip, not the flank. Do not expect any sympathy from Buck if your aim is off and you hit the flank or connect underneath the horse. The horse taking offense at where you hit it, and any unplanned dismount or unpleasant lawn dart type of experience you went through because the horse took offense, is YOUR FAULT. Solution - dont cause the horse to take offense in the first place. I liked the way he taught the shift the HQ over with the legs only on the last day - using the rein just to block forwards movement. It would be much easier for horse and human to learn it that way than the way I was taught in L2 - we were not to use our reins at all to block forwards we had to find another way to do it. He also taught the much easier way of teaching the human/horse about following a direct feel online. If you start at the halter or the slobber strap it is a lot easier than starting somewhere down the rope - for both of you. If this way of teaching either of these things has always been in Ray/Bucks work I have a bone to pick with one particular instructor here. I found some major contradictions in some of what Buck said at times. There was dont just do groundwork get on that horse and RIDE. You do NOT develop the liberty and online skills Buck has from the back of a horse. Some of them perhaps but not all of them. He has to have put in a lot of time with groundwork despite what he says. The contradiction came when he told both groups they ALL needed to get their groundwork skills a lot better than what they were - horse and human. A LOT BETTER. To get to the level of groundwork competency Buck considers adequate for himself is going to take some people a LONG time to do. They and their horses are going to have to do 100s or 1000s of hours to even get remotely close to that level. Being told to just get on and ride is just not going to get that job done if they listen to and act on that "just ride" comment. Buck made a really clear point on the last afternoon - if it is not there in your groundwork getting to soft for that movement under saddle is going to be difficult, if not impossible, for most of you. He was specifically referring to backing circles but it would apply across the board IMO. He is absolutely consistent on the horse being in a better mental and emotional place when he has finished with it than it was when he started. This is what I was seeing in his horses that reminded me so much of Phils (it is a big part of what creates the stamp they both have on their horses) but I was not getting this fact from what I read and heard from a lot of other people when they discussed Buck/Ray etc and what they taught. It is there in their DVDs and videos I have but not to anything like the same degree I found it to be there in person. I dont pick up a horses feel that well on a TV screen compared to when I watch them live - perhaps that is why I had such a disconnect about it, I dont know. This is also what was causing my disconnect about controlling the life in the feet. From what I had read from other peoples experiences in their clinics, and what I had been taught along the lines of what Buck teaches between 1996 - 2003 I had taken control of the life in the feet to be about absolute control of the feet from the get go - with no regard for how the horse felt about it. IME that is a very pervading view of what this means. Yet Bucks horses nad Rays horses did not look like this has been done to them. Buck was at pains to point out that going to far with this idea too early or too much even later on with a horse creates what he called punchy horses and it is not what he is talking about. What I saw was that if he has a specific job to do he CAN and WILL control that horses feet without upsetting the horse more than it already is. He rides well enough to have that horse look like a Grand Prix horse bouncing around excitedly while he does it too. Teh horse looked like that because she got caught up in the excitement/fear of the other horses, not because Buck asked her to get herself that wound up. She was basically wasting energy doing the job that way. She did not need to get as hyped up about what he was asking of her as she did. He was not that happy about her doing this but he had a job to do right then and she was the horse he had to do it with. So they did it. When it was done, it was done, she was not taken back there while in that mental/emotional state again or while the possibility of her going back into that mental/emotional state again existed. in that respect Buck is different from every other clinician I have seen except for Phil, His aim was to have her taking her cues for her mental emotional state from him and only using as much life as needed for the job, not more and not less. He has the skills to do all this in a very short period of time. Very few people I have met actually do have those skills to get what he gets done in the time he takes and produce that result mentally and emotionally in the horse. I know many who take the technique and use it thinking that is the whole answer. It isn't and what I heard Buck saying over and over again in the last three days backed that concept up for me. Bucks version of horseanality is "the expression" of the horse. he does not define it anymore than that. There are expressions he is looking for and expressions he is not looking for. He would prefer not to see any of those he is not looking for. He does not get after the horse in the sense that many people do when there is an expression he does not care to see. It just gets offered another outlet until it can change its expression. There were big changes happening rapidly with horses from this approach. IT is not the technique though IMO, it is HOW it is applied an WHEN it is stopped. Listening to the occasional conversation around me though you would think it was all about the technique - there were a few people there actively searching for hard/fast rules to apply from what he did. In some ways it reminded me a lot of my first clinic with Pat (where he went through ALL of that L1 in the back of the horsemanship book in 2 days) - a LOT of information to take in and no hope for anyone in their first clinic of taking it all in. I'm glad I was not riding, aside from the fact that I would have melted and so would my horse working in that heat most of the really good information - from my point of view - came when he sent the riders out to do something and talked to the audience while watching them. If I had been riding I would have missed all that, I cant listen to an instructor and stay with my horse while doing anything at the same time. I have to do one or the other. |
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| Playenatural |
Wow, thanks for the observations. | ||||||||||||||
| Kathleen |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Great write up!!! I can visualize a lot of it in my mind.
Were there any impulsive or high energy horses there? Mine are on the opposite end of the energy curve, so getting too much response is the problem rather then getting none. I like what he says and does about how the horse looks. That seems to work better for me then trying to 'wipe that look off your face' does. My horses take big offense to that much negative energy from them. Your questions about a neutral walk are good ones. I wonder how he'd apply this to gaited horses, since all gait is really faster walking...same foot sequence. |
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| kristie |
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| ice'n'rein |
Yes! Thanks for sharing that! I certainly wouldn't classify it as "ramblings" though! | ||||||||||||||
| whisperingwindfarms |
Thank you so much for taking the time to post that - sometimes when I audit a clinic, I lose ideas as time goes by. That brought so many things back for me from when I saw him in October. Plus, my copy of Groundwork just arrived in the mail yesterday.
So, if it would snow or something so I could have a day off, I could read it and remember even more. Thanks! |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| imagele |
I'll do the easy one first. You pronounce it Im-a-geel, with a soft g - as in gee whiz. It was a racehorse name, a very good racehorse from the 1970s. |
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| imagele |
Exactly. What he can do on a horses back many people need to get happening on the ground first. He did point that out a few times, somehow the message often seems to get lost, and "get on and ride" does not help it get found again too easily. I got the really strong impression if some sort of groundwork will help a horse work a cow, whether the person is on the horse, on the ground or sitting on a prone cow, he wants to be able to do it with a high level of skill and precision and no upset for the horse or resistance from the horse about being asked to do whatever it is. If it is just for putting on a show or has no purpose in working with cows it is then that groundwork is likely to become c**p or rubbish. I did not get the feeling he was against all groundwork at all, just groundwork with no actual purpose/job at the end of it for the horse. If his comments about groundwork were aimed at PNH (and to me they did not seem to be) I never found PNH to be a no riding zone anyway when I did clinics. Even in L1 we spent about 60 % of our time on the horse in clinics. That % of time on the horse increased in L2 and L3 clinics.
Ken Faulkner used to teach that sort of thing in his multilevel clinics in the late 90s. I found it really helpful to know how what I did on the ground related to what I did on their back. Because it has been part of my knowledge base for a long time now I forget what it was like not to be able to make those connections. Some people I have come across are not even interested in understanding that connection. To them the 4 savvies are all in separate boxes that dont connect up. PNH and whatever else they do is also in their separate boxes. None of that sort of approach computes for me, it all integrates and merges into something whole - even if that does take some hard thinking on my part to get it all integrated. There are some things that do have to be worked through from the horses back - there is no other way to get through them. Knowing those connections really helps me sort out HOW to sort things out from their backs when I needed to and live through it. Over the years I have probably taken only one or two issues from the saddle back to the ground - deliberately - to deal with them. I have had more than a few riding issues go away as a result of changes in my groundwork but that was not a deliberate choice, just a nice consequence of whatever else I was doing. |
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| imagele |
There were some rather reactive horses in both classes, when they were asked to move out though getting them to actually go forwards seemed to be quite difficult for their owners and even Buck had to work at getting it to happen. To use Ken Faulkners term for it - those horses were either pogo sticking around (one little mare sounded like a rather sick donkey when she was doing this) or running fast just so they could avoid falling over on their nose. IMO the horse with the most ants in her pants at the beginning was Buck's horse. To use his very technical description he was "busier than a cat covering up a c**p in a sandbox" that first day keeping her with him. She got to move her feet lots, not fast, but consistently got sent past him, was brought back past him and stood back exactly where she was everytime her feet started to get active when he had not asked them to be. When the worst of that was finished with she then got her head position corrected - every single time it moved out of position. If you watch Ray Hunt on any of his DVDs he does this - every single time that horses attention shifts off him by so much as an ear flick he brings it back by doing something. Every ........ single ........ time. Buck does the same thing. On day 2 she was able to stay with him more easily. His corrections on day 2 were a lot less in number but bigger and sharper than they had been on day 1. By day 3 she was not wanting to leave him much at all. Her reward for that, since she had done a bit of work for an unworked horse in the previous 2 days, was just to stand with him - either beside her or on her for most of the day. He told us this was what he had been waiting for and working towards for the previous 2 days and he was not going to work her butt off now that she had finally offered it to him. When he did ask her to move and do something on that third day the life in her feet was coming close to matching what he was looking for from her. That dealt with her "i have to move" and "I have to leave you" (mentally, emotionally and physically) when he did not want her moving. The thing I think most people dont get though is how aware both Ray and Buck were/are of where that horse is, what it is doing, thinking and feeling - every single moment they are with it. The "pay attention to me" goes both ways equally. I dont know about you but I find that sort of focus exhausting to do for extended periods of time. I can do it for about 2 - 3 hours on the ground and about 20 minutes in the saddle. After that I am completely drained of the mental/emotional energy required to stay that with my horse anymore. If I cannot pay the required amount of attention to my horse I dont think it is fair, or just, to expect my horse to pay me that amount of attention. SO I compromise - I accept less and I expect less and my energy has a longer life span that way. As my stamina increased I upped my expectations and my delivery. The self discipline in the horse comes when we can discipline ourselves. Buck made that point a couple of times too. he also talked about this mare over achieving, and needing to get worried when she moved her feet or was asked to move her feet. That worry caused her to move her feet faster than he wanted and more than he wanted. He spent a lot of time on the basic exercises getting her to not worry, not over achieve, not do more than she was being asked for, to wait until she was asked to do it, not do it faster than she was being asked for, ..... He did not make her do those things, or make her feel wrong for doing those things, they were just the best she could offer right then. He was very careful to make sure she ended each movement relaxed and with him again. The more she got to relax at the end of the movement the more she could relax during the movement. He also talked quite a bit about dialing the energy or life in the feet up and down and being able to do that smoothly and easily without the horses getting upset about it. It is a pity we were not allowed to film because how he worked with that mare he was riding was a really, really good example of how to do this with a horse like her. She was not extreme by any means and she reminded me a lot of my young mare. My mare took WORK (on my part) to get her to that point, she still does sometimes. This mare took Buck some WORK, he just had to do it for a lot less time than I did. He told us we were lucky in some ways - we got to see him dealing with these issues with a horse that did not know him, people in the US usually get to see him with horses who dont do those things too much anymore. I think after a few more days - at most - with Buck this mare would not do them either. It was a real education to just watch him - he did not get big with her, he did not get upset with her, he just kept his focus and attention on her and gave her what she needed even as he was teaching people and handling other horses at times. He had tremendous focus and attention to detail and awareness of everything that was going on in that arena.
To me that has always had a punitive aspect to it, despite the fact that Linda can say it without any emotion behind it. Buck used words like "that wont work for you", "hows that working for you ?", "they are not coming near me looking like that, they can go out and do a bit more until they dont look like that", "offer the horse another option". He mentioned a couple of times that there are people out there who use a roundpen to run a horse to exhaustion and that this IS NOT what Ray and Tom meant to happen. He discussed the fact that if you dont have the right feel and timing it might take you longer to get something achieved with a horse in a roundpen and that this might mean you can NOT then ride that horse that day. His aim was to do just enough to get a change and still have something left in the horse so that it could be ridden. A few times he talked about not just saying "No' but rather "No, but how about you do this instead ?", he took answers that he might want later or that would pay off later even if they were not what he was actually after right then. He got after a couple of people for shutting down those answers when they would want them later on and a couple of times he got after people for not shutting down some behaviours that could develop into something rather nasty. In that I found him very like Carolyn Resnick in his point of view - look at the long term result of what is happening now - ask yourself do you want it or not ?
Do you mean "from me ?" My horses take offense too. Most of the time if they look like that (which is now extremely rarely) it is because I have been rude to them. That look on their face has never come from nowhere/nothing with my horses. It probably did not come from nowhere with the horses Buck made that comment about not liking their expression about either, but even so, around people it is not acceptable. The horses are easy to convince and change, it is the people who caused it that are hard to change.
Probably the same way. |
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| imagele |
First off this horse had no idea that people have a personal space. That one is going to take some effort to fix. Buck spent a little bit of time on this issue while unhaltering the colt at one point, so did the person he called in to help with this horse. They both had to get rather big and repeat and repeat to get the point across so it stayed out of their space for more than a few seconds online. IMO this issue was still not good at all with the owner when the colt start finished. The owner was talking to Buck just after that last morning finished up while still holding his horse. That horse must have headed in Bucks direction. I did not see what Buck did but whatever it was both Buck and the colt made quite a noise, the colt did not go back into Bucks space again. The horse was dragging its owner around, could not stand still, calling etc. when they all lined up that first morning It was heading towards another horse all the time, not a horse it knew prior to the colt start but often enough to have Buck ask if the two horses lived together. The owner described it as herd bound. The owner was carrying waterbottles etc for a lady riding in the afternoon so it might have been that horse it was calling for. IT was not that horse it was heading towards while in the arena though. When Buck had the horses set free to flag the colts around as a group during the first morning this horse would run to a horse or group of horses then kick them. Once or twice Buck might have let go (I dont know) but this horse did this repeatedly. He was kicking - and connecting - each time usually. I dont think it had shoes on (I really dont want to imagine what that would look like to try to put shoes on this horse) but if it was wearing shoes I would not have been too happy if I owned one of those other colts. Some of the other horses were also kicking up but they were not deliberately seeking out another horse to kick like this horse seemed to be doing each time it got a little bit more worried. I was too busy watching to write things down but I think Buck described it as being like a scared teenage thug or words similar to that. Very worried about everything, not able to be alone but not able to be with the other horses and behave appropriately either. It was the only horse in teh group he picked out to rope. Buck put a figure 8 around its neck and front leg, took that front leg away. He did some yielding like that, just a couple of steps at most then waiting while the horse started to work it out. Then he would ask it to yield again. I got the very strong feeling that for the first time in its life this little horse had come up against something that was not going to give way if it ran, pushed or kicked hard enough. When the horse started to make the mental/emotional change the other horses started coming up and sniffing it while Buck just held it there. Usually in groups of 2 or 3 at a time. All but one horse just sniffed it gently, the horse that wanted to do more Buck sent away. A couple of times Buck had to drop the rope. The first time the horse ran into a corner of the arena and hid its nose in the corner. Buck had his helper pick up the rope and hand it back to him, The other times it ran to the other horses and hid in a group of them, it was not kicking at these times. When it did that Buck left it there for a little while before he asked for the rope to be picked up and handed back to him then asked the horse to move again. That horse started to see the other horses as a place of safety not a place where he needed to defend himself all the time. He discovered that the other horses basically meant him no harm for the most part and that he could be with them and not have to kick them into next week. It also meant when the riders got on their horses the next day there would likely not be too many broken legs happening in that roundyard. That was a distinct possibility before Buck did all this. I think I saw that horse kick out only once or twice in the next 2 days at other horses and it was pushed pretty hard by the horse it kicked at before it did that. I dont recall it connecting either time though. It had been connecting more than not connecting before Buck got hold of it. It kicked at its owner at one stage on the second morning. That had been coming since the first minute of the colt start. It was not long after that happened that Buck called in someone else to do the first ride. He had that rider keep this little horse very busy and moving out but after the first little while he did not even need that being done to behave himself as Buck flagged them all around with their riders up. His behaviour and attitude to the other horses altered completely in that time he spent with the rope on him. What blew me away was that this time I could watch this happen, think about it happening, write about it and not get upset at all about it like I have in the past. Even when the take away a leg technique was done well and worked very successfully to change a behaviour with a close friends horse back in the 90s the changes in that horse and who he was afterwards still upset me to think about. He was a nicer horse to be around and a much safer horse for my friend to ride afterwards, no question about it, but a part of who he was died or got buried so deep that day it would have been really hard to resurrect it. I thought a lot about what had happened to him in the years that followed and decided that I would probably never have one of my horse go through that. I did have a horse bad enough to need something like this done to change her view of her world. I just could not do it to her. I thought I would never be able to contemplate having it done to one of my horses and I have felt that way for over 10 years now. That changed a few days ago although I still would not hand my horse over to just anyone to have this done, not even the person who did my friends horse. I dont know this little horse at all and I may not ever get to see it again but I dont think/feel anything like what I saw in my friends horse afterwards has happened this time. The "everything is going to be all right" feeling was way too strong.
My horse was what I would call a scared bully. Very similar behaviour to this little horse at times. Not all the time with my horses but often enough that I would sometimes wonder and worry about it. They would all be grazing in various parts of the paddock and for no reason i could discern he would lift his head and charge flat out at another horse. Then he would continue to chase them around for 1 - 2 hours. Not 100 % of the time in that 2 hours but enough to have them both in a heavy sweat. It was not play, he does not play like this. The only way he could catch them was to run them into a corner and when that happened on the rare occasions they were silly enough to stay in the corner he would lay into them with his heels. Everytime I took him away to a clinic or lesson or to the farrier or .... this would happen within an hour or so after we got back home. If I had strange horses staying they would be introduced with the usual squeals etc and then OK in my herd for a while (24 - 48 hours) before he would suddenly start this behaviour with them. IMO, it was normal in the early stages when he took off after them but went over the top fairly quickly. He did not seem to know when it was appropriate to stop. If he was in the wild both horses would be out of air and easy pickings if they needed to run from a predator when he was carrying on like this. I knew quite a few horses who behaved like this, he was not that abnormal, but something was not right with him. What was wrong and how to change it I did not know. I did not know it could change back then, none of the other horses I knew of who carried on like this had changed in the time I had known them. When I started really exploring self confidence and I need you to think for yourself and trust your own judgement with him after our go up a tree incident this behaviour started to diminish. It disappeared around 2005 and I have not seen it since with my other horses. In hindsight I think he was scared - all the time. Every now and then it would get to much for him to cope with and off he would go. If nothing else running around like this for a couple of hours would deal with the hormones that fear had coursing through him. Now his whole presence has changed, he owns the space he is in he is not trying to hide there anymore. He has some self confidence now and it takes a fair bit to shake it these days, he had no self confidence when I got him - just a bully type of energy about him. When I take him away to clinics etc instead of him wanting to run from or charge the other horses he just accepts their presence. They sometimes run from him and in a couple of cases I have had a couple of them charge at him. He is not fussed by any of this happening anymore. He would probably have tried to go through a solid wall if some horse had charged him before he ran away years ago. Now he holds his space and stays on his line without me having to try to help him do that. He still prefers to not be the leader if we go out on a ride but he can do that job easily, he outwalks other horses often. I can place him anywhere in a group of about 15 horses and he will hold that position without me having to work at it. It used to be hard work sometimes to ride him with a group. It used to be that any changes taht happen in that environment (like someone putting their saddle on the fence of the arena) while he away from home had him taking a wide berth around that spot for the whole time he was there and sometimes still taking a wide berth in subsequent trips to that place. Now someone changes something and he is doing a 180 immediately to go and investigate what it is. He is quite insistent that he needs to do this too. I never made him investigate things or asked him to do it. I still cant stand watching horses who have been made to do it while they are still scared out of their wits about whatever it is but doing it because their human scares them more - I saw a LOT of PNH horses (usually with very proud owners) over the years who fit that description. At home one of my other horse seems to think it is her job to investigate anything that changes first. He used to avoid those changes for at least 24 - 48 hours before even looking at them from 100+ feet away. Now he is hot on her heels to check it out. We have moved recently. They still have not been through all the paddocks here. So far he as escaped through gates twice and headed off to explore on his own - straight out of sight of my other horse without a care in the world.I used to be able to count on him not leaving their sight if he ended up on the wrong side of the fence. I cant anymore. He could not have walked off exploring like that in a pink fit 6 years ago. Him choosing to go out exploring ON HIS OWN ??? never. The more I look at their behaviours when they dont know i am watching changing the more I think that a lot of behaviours in horses in domestic herds that are probably considered "normal" and unchangable are neither of those things. Where I struggle is knowing what is actually "normal" for horses as a species and what is created by the conditions we keep them under. People with Bucks sort of background working with horses raised on the range for years would get to see something much closer to what is "normal" for the horse as a species than someone like me. It is picking up that information that I find hard to do sometimes. He did discuss something on the last day that fascinated me, gave me another piece of the puzzle with my old mare, and maybe might give you something to think about with Brandy. I plan to make a separate thread for that one, I am still writing that post. Then I actually have to type up my clinic notes. |
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| Thunder Hollow |
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| Playenatural |
I went to sleep thinking about this and woke up thinking about it.
A question. If Buck had taken the leg from your friends horse, do you think you would have felt different about it then? Is/was it a matter of method? Intent? Your personal growth? A combination of all? I mean the difference of feeling "lost something" vs "everything is going to be alright" is huge! Thank you, thank you for taking the time to write this. It really makes it blindingly obvious how I need to get out and see this man in person. The bad part is they are saying he is cutting back his travel schedule next year and I have to drive 8 to 12 hours any direction to get to him. |
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| Jack |
Not nearly enough humans learn this lesson. I suspect most good horsmen will remember the horses that taught them the importance of this practice. 
Jack |
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| imagele |
Maybe back then. I was in a very different place 12 years ago. If Buck did it - now - to her horse and the horse was as he was then - I might be able to accept the same sort of change in him if it happened. The timing of when all this happened and what else was going on around it for them and for me is playing a big part in how I feel about it. Whether Buck doing it would not have produced that change at all in him ? - I really could not say.
No. I dont have a big objection to what was done (technique wise) so long as the person using it knows what they are doing ie is not too likely to break horses legs etc. They did use different methods but both had the same concept - take away a leg.
While what Buck did might have been partly about no broken humans the next day, what he talked about more was how this little horse would be able to be with other horses and not get so upset/worried about them being there with him. Of all the times I have seen something like this done that is the purest "for the horse" reason I have heard. All the others were along the lines of "for the horse so it stays out of a dog food can" or the "they cannot be allowed to continue this way because a human is going to get hurt" reasons. Those are all good reasons but they are not about/for the horse in the sense I mean. With my friends horse it was about her safety (she had followed all the other suggestions for his bucking and it had only gotten worse). There was no way this horse was ever going into a dog food can if my friend had any say in the matter so it was not his life at risk because of his behaviour. if that horse last weekend did come through completely alright when Buck was finished with him Bucks intent as I read it might be part of the reason for that. I find with my horses that if my intent is purely about them and what they need they are much more likely to be OK and much quicker to come with me than if something I want is being disguised inside my supposed good intentions for them. It is just a shift in my thoughts but my horses tell me it changes my actions in ways I dont even know. My friends horse had a similar sort of issue with other horses as the horse Buck worked with and my horse. Over the top dominant. That did not diminish afterwards with him.
Perhaps. The last time I thought seriously about this was only a few months ago. I still felt like I could not have it done to a horse of mine, so it is not just changes in me over time. To give you some idea of where i was I had no real idea back then of how deep seated some issues are with horses or just how life threatening they can be. I still might not have a real idea, but I have a lot more of one than I did. Back then I was in the process of taping my L2. I had yet to come across a horse where I needed to get really big just so I could stay alive. I have since met 2 of them. That is 2 more than I ever wanted to meet. After the second of those horses I discovered that things I had previously thought were unacceptable to do, and that I felt I could never do, would never do - were acceptable and I could and would do them. I did not go looking for either of those situations, I did unknowingly create one, the other just happened. After the second one happened the option of never, NEVER doing something like this to my horses was not really on the table. Being able to accept it being done, really feeling like it might be the best of all possible options for a horse of mine - that I could not do until a few days ago. My then levels horse had claustrophobia issues - she had been lethal about being loaded into a float and I had only had that sorted out for about 6 - 12 months. It took me somewhere between 400 and 800 hours to get that float loading done. When it was done she was rock solid about loading for the next 10 years. That float loading was my first goround at using something approaching Phils model with a horse. We completely dealt with her many multitudes of thresholds and that "get in a cave on wheels and let me lock you in there" portion of her claustrophobia NEVER came back, not once. What I did not know in 97/98 was how persistent her pull back issues would continue to be for the remaining years of her life. She still had at least 2 if not all 3 gorounds with the Aussie equivalent of DML and DE in our future to try to deal with her pulling back. All three of those gorounds failed - completely - to help her. It was after the third goround that I was told she probably needed one of these more extreme techniques used. If you had watched what were supposed to be the 2 best PNH Instructors in the country 3 times be unable to deal effectively in any way at all with your horse's pull back issue would you hand your horse back over to one of them to get even more extreme with her ? I had been told 3 times that what they did with her would be effective. Three times it wasn't. Now I was being told that doing something more extreme would be effective. I did not have a lot of faith in that promise anymore. That is the choice I had to make. At the time I thought it was the only option if I stayed within PNH. Access to Pat here after 2000 - unless you were an instructor was pretty much nil. In 1997 I had seen what Pat was like in something like a colt start and I really did not want to hand her over to him either. I decided not to even try to organise to have it done. I avoided the pull back issue when I could and held my breath when I couldn't. I rethought my decision each time she lost it but did not change my mind. She would tie up and stay there so long as she did not get startled and hit the end of the rope hard. Most of the time she would stand very quietly. But every now and then .... If I had not had this horse I probably would not even be writing this post because this topic would not have the same meaning for me. Things change - a lot - when you have one of these horses. Stuff that is just a theoretical discussion and an easy choice to make for a lot of horse owners suddenly becomes a lot more real and it is a lot more difficult to live with whatever choice you do make. No matter what choice you make there may be consequences you may not want to live with or live through. I was lucky in that the worst consequences of my choice did not happen. That was all it was though - luck - and I knew that at the time. I was struggling to understand that day with my friends horse how taking his legs away one at a time would solve bucking. This is no longer an issue at all I was struggling emotionally to handle what he was going through inside without any of the tools I now have to help me deal with that sort of thing. This is no longer an issue I have to deal with too often It had been pointed out to us how dangerous the technique to be used on him was for a horse and that if things went badly wrong one or both of them might not survive. Like Karen (with Sage - the needle shy demo), my friend had to agree - verbally - that this was a risk she was willing to have taken with her horse. I think (not 100 % sure) what Buck did was probably a little bit less risky for the horse in terms of where the rope was placed and how it was acting on the horses leg. WIth my friends horse - a big enough error in timing or feel and his leg bones were likely to be shattered. Buck was the quickest, and the most effective at getting a change at least short term, of any of the times I have watched it happen. Whether that is because of the horse or his skills or both - who knows ?. I'd need to see it done a lot more times than I want to before I try to figure that one out. Of the times I have seen it done that setup last weekend had the most potential to be a huge trainwreck. There were other horses, people who lacked awareness and a roundcorral with 4 or 8 (if the horse got past the line of people across the middle of the arena) corners around the outside of that round corral for the horse to get trapped in. If he jumped into that round corral fencing in those corners and got stuck there it was going to be UGLY. It was not going to be too much better if he jumped into the round corral fencing away from those corners either. The arena itself was probably the safest one I have seen used in this situation - it was just the other things/beings in the arena that bothered me. One of the downsides of being a Chemical Engineer sometimes is the ability to do an instant hazop - which was exactly what i was doing as soon as he dropped that rope on that horse. The little horse was fairly sensible (as much he could be anyway) he did not fight a huge amount, the rope almost got tangled up with the microphone at one time, and a couple of the other horses at other times. Buck dropped the rope when those things happened. Buck came down verbally on a couple of people who were hunting the horse away when he tried to hide in the other horses and Buck wanted him left alone. There was a small amount of blood on the horses leg (which could have been there before all this started) and he seemed to come through it all relatively unscathed physically. AS much as I could tell given how he was online he did not look lame or sore the next day. No one got hurt, nothing else got damaged, the other horses stopped getting kicked so much, that horse got to change his way of being 24/7 hopefully for life - all up it was a great result.
Probably, and some other things I have not yet thought of. All this I am still processing right now.
The lost something I noticed afterwards - days later, not while it was being done It is a huge change and it was a change I did not expect would ever happen, no matter who it was on the other end of that rope. I've read/heard comments about these techniques over the years, some I've dismissed but some - made by people I respected - I thought a lot about. Intellectually I understood the argument of "if the horse can be helped in 20 minutes why leave it in that state any longer ?, it is downright cruel to do that" but emotionally I could not agree. Well that is not quite right either. I could agree so long as whoever did it could guarantee that the horse WOULD be OK - mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually - afterwards. No one can do that. I also only think/feel this little horse was OK, but I dont know. I need to see their eyes to know and I did not want to get close enough to him to check. One thing that occurred to me was that this "Its all OK" feeling was coming entirely from Buck and had nothing to do with the horse as such, it is just how Buck operates. He might just have a much stronger sense/feel/intention that it is going to be OK than the other clinicians I have seen use techniques like this. I dont think this is the reason for the change though Then there is this - Even though my friend and her horse had been helped he lost something I felt was important to him. I did not really like her horse too much before that happened. He had this really hard sharp edge to him that put me very much on the defensive whenever I got to handle him. Afterwards he was a much softer, nicer horse to handle and be around - with people anyway. If he was my horse I am not sure I would want to put that edge back if that lost bit of him could be resurrected. Now I cant go the other way either TIme to stop typing about this I think.
Thanks for asking the questions, they helped me process some of this much more easily.
Go while you can. I wish now i had gone to see Ray Hunt the last couple of times he came out here. This is the horse. http://barefoothoofcare.com.au/im...kBrannamanClinic/070220102546.jpg This looks to me like it was taken just before his first ride - the saddle had just been changed and this is the rider Buck asked to take over. Bucks comment when he asked the rider to bring this horse back into the round corral for the third or fourth time was "you cant fix all his ills on the end of a leadrope". It would have been nice if the ills had not been created in the first place, he has the makings of a nice horse if someone can deal with them now they have been created. |
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| imagele |
This reads like it has happened to you. Can we have the story please ? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think we all go through a time when we think we can handle everything with more Friendly Game or undemanding time, or something similar. Or at least we really WANT to be able to handle everything sweetly. Realizing that this isn't always going to be true is hard, especially if you're one of those people who's never owned or seen a horse like you describe. It's not going to help your moving forward with the horse, but it REALLY isn't fair to the horse to let it live in such fear. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Imagele wrote:
If it had taken Buck 3+ hours to accomplish this, do you think your opinion of the procedure would be different? And would your opinion of Brannaman be different as well? Perhaps if we could define exactly what these procedures take from the horse(what the horse loses) with 100% certainty, we could be more sure of our opinions. Larry |
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| imagele |
Yes I was thinking that as I was typing and retyping my post. I read that thread of yours about Sam on the SC multiple times. This time, I finally have a sense of peace about it. Finally seeing a horse come throuigh OK (at least I think he was) after seeing this technique (and the laying down one) used multiple times and the horses not really coming through OK IMO. It helps - a lot. Now I can feel what they meant with the "it is downright cruel to leave a horse like that". Trouble was, in all the previous times I have seen these techniques used - that horse still had either the same issue PLUS/OR some other issue had been created. I see leaving horses like that afterwards as even more cruel sometimes than doing nothing. That was my main issue with my mare - she already had issues, she did not need something like this adding another layer to it if they failed to get the change to happen or they got that change but created something else almost as bad in the process. I think she would have shut down entirely if either of those things had happened to her. She was shutdown a lot of the time anyway (which we did eventually get through) but having this done to her and getting either of these results instead of the one Buck got would have finished the job as far as she was concerned I think. Perhaps it is the case that there are very few people who can utilize these technique effectively and those I happened to see using them are not quite in that category yet.
So long as I felt the same about the horse coming out of it OK - no - no different. If there was a less extreme way to get that same result in 3 hours (and I have yet to find one of those) yes I would feel different. It would be much better if the situation for all those horses I've seen go through something like this had never been created. How that horse behaved during his first ride showed what he could have been like. It was the day after all this but even so the way he behaved on the ground and the way he behaved under a rider - chalk and cheese. Everything he was doing in that first morning was learnt. When he was offered something quite different to what he had been offered in the past (assumption here) after the rider got on - he learnt/showed a quite different way to be. Teh rider got off, asked him to move around to take off whatever and it was back to the photo I linked to in my previous post - he had already learnt that way of being on the ground. Innately I dont think he as was looking to create mayhem around himself (with people or horses), he just knew no other way.
I think Doc nailed it in the blind spots thread - the need for self preservation - in certain circumstances anyway. I guess where I still have doubts is in the "who are we to play God and decide for another living being what is and is not appropriate for them ?" We do that all the time with other people and with our animals but with something like this, euthanasing them is another, it really brings that issue front and centre for me. http://www.stockyard.net/vbulleti...annaman-clinic-vic-pictorial.html The picture in post # 2 was taken during the process. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Imagele wrote:
I really like the effort you obviously make to put these things into the most accurate perspective possible for you. Larry |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Leanne---Was the first photo shown with this horse, and Buck leaning on the round pen panel, shot after Buck had performed the "take the leg" technique on this horse? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
That's what I thought too, but Leanne said that Buck always ropes a leg with a neck in order not to strangle the horse. |
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| TrickMule |
Leanne, thank you so much for your "ramblings" - very interesting! | ||||||||||||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Is "taking away a leg" the same thing farriers do with young horses? Tie a soft rope around the neck at the shoulder, and then tie one leg up to that. Let the horse argue with the rope until it stands quietly on three legs. | ||||||||||||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
Carol---I understand that. It is clearly illustrated in the sixth photo depicted in the pictorial at that link. Leanne--- I am wondering about where Buck and the horse were in the process and time line as depicted in the first photo. I'm particularly concerned about the 'look' in the horse's eyes. |
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| imagele |
When I called up these photos yesterday I only had about half of them showing up (V slow internet connection). Yes that first photo - just Buck and the horse with one person and a horse (obscured) in the background was after. Black saddle was before/during, brown saddle was after. |
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| imagele |
Kylie said that, not me |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
I was afraid that was the case. I have some strong feelings about the horse in that photo, but I will gather my thoughts first before I comment. |
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| imagele |
I really wish that photo had NOT showed up this morning when I called up that page. It did not show up on my PC yesterday, I only had one picture show up in post # 1 yesterday. Groundwork this horse found really difficult, he had not been taught what he needed to know. There was not the change in behaviour there that he had about being around other horses. Buck was clear - "you cannot fix all his ills on the end of a leadrope" and he did not try to address all the issues this horse had on the ground. The one change he could and did make that I think will stay with that horse for life is how he feels around other horses. The one thing he could offer that horse that will probably make the biggest difference to his future as a riding horse was a relatively trouble free first ride where he was encouraged to move out - the horse got that too. For that horse and his groundwork it looked to me like it would be like being a kid and having someone tell you that 1 + 1 = 2 and 3 + 5 = 8 but you still dont know how to count to 10 and you have absolutely no idea what 4 + 4 = ? Horses need to come into something like this able to count to 10. They also need, if possible, to be able to do simple arithmetic or at least have someone who can explain simple arithmetic to them clearly and easily. When they come into a colt start like this without any of those things in place they are going to be and probably stay troubled. PM me if you want to. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Is this the picture you are talking about?
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| imagele |
It is the one I am referring to in my reply to Marty. Marty ?? |
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| imagele |
I would rather not do that. Seeing horses that are in that much trouble I really dont enjoy, I had too many years living with one.
The time it takes does not really bother me in the sense that I think you are referring to here. If it went on for days at that intensity yes it would bother me, but a few hours is not a lot in the lifetime of a horse. Sometimes horses take a long time to make the change, no matter how extreme or how mild you are with them. My old mare used to regularly take up to 2 hours to sort through all her issues, finally cross a threshold and make a permanent change. With my other horses 20 minutes is a very, very long time for them to work through something to that same point. IME each horse is different in the time it takes to work through something that bothers it, even a little bit. Something that really upsets it - IME that generally takes longer to get through than is normal for that horse. At the moment I think the amount of time it takes each horse to work through a normal, everyday upset and and a really deep seated upset is for the most part innate to that horse. I dont believe it is a function of the person (I am assuming here that they do have the skills to do what they are doing), the technique or anything else external to the horse as much as it is a function of the horses innate nature.
It is. I dont think any of the people I have seen made it lightly either. They dont have the luxury of the best choice - dont cause the horse the problem in the first place. Someone else already blew that one out of the water well and truly. They have to try to fix someone elses mistakes and do it in a limited amount of time. If you had the skills to do something like this and you were in the same situation as Sam was what choice would you make about what to do with that horse ? |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I may be putting words in Marty's mouth, but that horse looks shell-shocked to me.
I have to wonder if this horse was at Buck's place, if he'd have done something differently. My farriers tied up one of Bruiser's legs to trim him. He fought it and was a bloody mess. I said, "Enough" and let them go. Worked with his feet with cookies (used his LBE in my favor) and got him to hand me his feet...a little exuberantly, but better then him being "broken." I've laid horses down..well, ponies. Years ago I picked up 11 wild Shetlands that were stray-penned and captured. I paid their bail and got all 11. I threw all of them, hog tied them, and sacked them out. It "broke" all of them. They paid for part of my first year of college. I'm not proud of this. It was a long time ago. It saved the ponies from becoming Alpo. It (and a lot of training) made them safe for kids. In those days I never worried about the heart, spirit, or personality of the horse. They had a similar look, like "What the hell just happened?" But, they knew I could do anything with them that I wanted, so they never fought me again. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
Leanne---Just sent you a PM.
Carol--- He looks shell-shocked...and maybe profoundly, permanently shocked. I was gone visiting Mandy and just walked in and made the mistake of checking this Forum before eating dinner. Didn't mean to be silent. Because Leanne was there, and because she started this thread...and because she started the Blind Spots thread...I've sent her a PM. It is long and rambling and I'd like her thoughts in reply before I say anything here. My blood sugar is too low right now for a coherent written post. I'm gonna go fix dinner. To be continued. |
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| imagele |
Not Marty here but that word fits for me.
If he was one of Bucks horses I dont think he would look like that. He would have been given no reason to do so. If he came in to Bucks place for Buck to work with and was unable to count to 10 initially with his groundwork that would not be pretty to watch but count to 10 all the way up to complex algebra that horse would be able to do, and understand, when he left - without looking shell shocked about it after the first little while. Buck was not there to teach this horse how to count to 10, or to teach the person how to teach the horse to count to 10, even though they both really needed to know it IMO. To teach both of them how to get the horse to count to 10 and have it last Buck was going to have to ignore all the other horses and riders for most of the colt start. Those other horses - some of them did not count to 10 too well either, they needed help too. If anyone picked up frmo what I have written that I thought this horse was OK about everything that happened to him over the three days I am sorry about that. I did not mean that at all. It is one of the reasons why I did not get close enough to him to look into his eyes. When I was referring to him being OK I was referring specifically to having other horses around him, not the rest of what happened over the 3 days. I think he did get the best deal possible under the circumstances and a couple of bonuses he might not have gotten from another clinician. Is it the whole deal he needs ? Not by any means close to being that. It is one of the best deals I have seen a horse get in these circumstances though. Pat had a good point years ago when he restricted who could watch or take part in a colt start. Dealing with youngsters and starting colts is an art. Way too many people think it is fun or easy or it does not matter too much if they dont get it quite right, many dont even have a clue what they might need to teach a horse in terms of even basic ground manners let alone how to go about anything else .... and that is the start of the problems too many horses carry for the rest of their lives. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Thanks Leeann. That is along the lines of what I was thinking. I have to wonder if there was a different way to help this horse. I do believe you have to help fearful horses to get them past it. But, I question this method and how much was done because it was at a clinic rather then some place you could spend more time working with the colt (filly?). I would not be happy if this were my horse.
People say many bad things about imprinting, "Parelli Preschool" and similar colt handling and early training. But I don't think you have young horses 'start' training life like this little horse. It was sad. You might say "count to ten" but I go back to "take the time it takes." I used to do it this way. I don't anymore. I won't go so far as to say I wouldn't do this to a horse. I do rescues and some come here pretty bad. Sometimes you have to do what you need to do on occasion. If I had to treat this horse before I could try other methods, I'd lay it down to do so. |
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| Blue Flame |
One of Blue Flame's paddock mates has sliced open his forearm. The owners are away for at least another week and don't know anyone else they can call on to treat this horse - so it's me or no-one. We called the owners, who asked us to get the vet. So we took photos of the injury to the vet's office. The vet said he didn't need to come out for this and prescribed antibiotic oral paste (twice daily) and a cream to fill the wound with (that expensive stuff with silver in it that they use for burns sometimes). The injured horse is a 2 year old Appy - very bold with not much respect for personal space - an in your face horse. A big phase with the CS & string only moves him off a few steps. He's only been with the herd abnout 2-3 weeks and judging by the scars he's gathered, the other horses are having to go up the phases to move him along as well. He is not broken to saddle. My concerns are two-fold: 1. Personal safety - not sure how he is going to react to a virtual stranger haltering him, drenching him with anti-biotic paste then treating a wound - let alone twice daily for . . . . unknown duration. At least it's a front leg. 2. After effects of me handling him. I don't want to be the one who causes future handling/behavioural problems in someone else's horse who I hardly know - one of those situations where you gotta do what you gotta do to help the horse - but might get blamed for handling difficulties down the track. If anyone has any tips they can suggest on the next 60 minutes before I have to go out there - it would be much appreciated. All I can think of at the moment is that if it starts looking like I may have to get into it with him - I'll seriously consider pulling the plug and leaving him untreated. He'll probably be ok anyway as long as he's up on his tetanus vaccinations. EDIT: Apologies for going off-topic . . . It just struck me that this 2yo Appy likely hasn't learn to count to 10 and I'm not about to teach him to in the hour I have before it gets dark. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think I'd build some kind of shoot or squeeze the horse where you can work safely from outside the fence. Have someone distract the horse's front end so he has something else to think about, and you apply the past with a rag on the end of the carrot stick.
It can be hay, it can be an eye rubbed or rag played with. That depends on what you think will distract him. |
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| carefreegirl |
I find it interesting that we are so quick to say that the 'taking away of the leg' exercise must have left the horse 'shell-shocked' with just one photo...
I have seen pretty much that exact same expression that is on that horse on my own horse when he first encountered the 'scary' big green ball, he was very worried, tight lipped, worried eyes, but his ears were still listening to me (ears to the side) pretty much exactly what that horse is doing, it is a very RBI type pose (possibly RBE hard to tell from a still photo), probably the horse is feeling frozen and if pushed might get an explosion... Yet look at what Buck is doing in that photo, he has pressure off the horse and seems to be talking to the audience, how do we know from just that photo if the horse didn't lick his lips and blink his eyes a few moments latter? We can't even tell from that photo how long Buck keeps the pressure off the horse. How can we tell how long it has actually been since the 'taking away of the leg' exercise from that photo? Perhaps it has actually been a while and the change to a western saddle with a back cinch (from the black saddle that didn't have one) is what actually caused the worried look in that photo (or possibly something else)? We can't know cause we weren't there/there aren't more photos close to that time to make that judgment on maybe those that were there can shed some light on the matter, yet maybe they can't remember this exact time of what happened just before and just after this particular photo was taken.... I do agree though that whenever possible 'taking away the leg' type exercises should be a last resort after other options have been thoroughly explored, and I do think that most clinicians when out of a clinic environment with time constraints would probably go about doing things with 'extreme' horse behavior differently... |
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| Blue Flame |
In the end it turned out to be a non-issue. I approach him in the paddock and he made a point of showing me his wound - practically asked me to do something with it. So I was able to treat that at liberty. He kept walking off when I went to tube him though so put a rope halter on then asked him to move his head left, right and down so the feel of the halter wouldn't be a surprise to him if the pressure came on. Turns out he is very well halter trained - soft and light - so tubing him with the oral antibiotic met negligible resistance. Supplied him with a steady supply of carrot strips before, during and after. |
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| imagele |
Is the horse food oriented at all ? If so I'd protect it away from the others somehow and mix the paste well into something you think it will eat. Give it a little while to eat if it does not take it straight away, then let it go back with the herd. If it does not eat at least you wont have gotten into a fight about drenching it and if it does eat the food half the issue is solved. My preference if you have the skills is to do all this at liberty rather than get into a tussle about taking the horse somewhere online. Another option I have used in the past is probiotics and Vit C if the horse gets to the point of refusing to touch oral antibiotics in their feed or spitting out the pastes. The non acidic forms (ie not ascorbic acid) of Vit C work best because they dont taste as foul, just sometimes cost a lot. The cream I would only start worrying about if it looks like the wound is becoming infected. IME treating wounds with "whatever" rarely makes a lot of difference to whether or not the horse gets an infection or not. I have left wounds after the initial clean and the horse has been fine, I have looked after wounds to the nth degree because i was religiously following Vets advice and it has become infected repeatedly - and all variations in between. Carols suggestions I like. Most of all - only do what leaves you feeling reasonably OK about attempting. Getting hurt for someone elses horse ..... That said - IME a lot of horses (animals) know when they need help and they know when you are offering that help. THey will stand for a lot of mucking about/pain etc - even if they dont know you too well - when they need help and you are offering help. Sam the koala reaching for that bottle of water just over 12 months ago is an example of this. If the animal really fights that offer of help - hard as it is to do nothing - I'll sometimes just leave them to deal with it themselves. The slight change of topic was welcome - something that is not so stressful to think about - at least for me. |
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| Blue Flame |
Thanks to you also Imagele, that's pretty much how it turned out in the end - see my post above.
I'm really enjoying this thread. We had occasion to use the concept of retaining the horse's attention the other day - you know, the . . . Every. Single. Time. . . . concept of bringing attention back. We had taken Miki's horse to a new place for only the second time and she was trying to have a relaxing ride. She'd ask for left, he'd go right - just because she'd asked for left - and she wasn't being particular about that, just letting it pass. Her attitude was she just wanted to cruise but that same relaxed attitude was kind of leaving her horse without a leader Well, this went on a little while and I could see her horse disregarding her presence on his back more and more and doing his own thing. She was losing leadership points at an increasing rate and her horse was starting to look for things to do and come up with ideas of his own. So I told her about this attention thing - got her so she left him alone as long as he focused on her but asked him for something the moment his head turned to look away or cocked an ear at something - it worked wonders. There were a couple of moments where Blue Flame prepared to buck as she took leadership back (by not giving him time to imagine things), then abandoned the thought before actually bucking as he got busy with her latest request. I also told Miki about Henry Wynmalen's assertion that it is very easy to train bad things in a horse - all one needs to do is be inattentive. So as it turned out, this horse had a half hearted idea about bucking as he surrendered leadership, then it was gone - nipped in the bud before the habit formed. However, I think it emphasised the point that she was only seconds away from creating a bucking horse due to inattention. So thanks for this thread and that concept - it is a very important one. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I think if you read the post about taking away the leg from the beginning, the whole reason it was done was to have a profound affect on the horse for the rest of its life. I am sure Buck said something like this at the clinic. And the changes in the horse were observed from the incident onward. You don't just do this to every horse, or to not have an impact. I see the impact in that horse's face and eye, and have seen it before. I don't know any horse that has had a life changing experience from the green ball, but I imagine it's possible. |
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| cynthia peterson |
Thank you so much Imagele on all your "Ramblings". I really love all your thoughts. And they are fair, not pro or nay, but just thought that make us think.
The way I look at the picture is the horse looks tired. Just that let down look in body of man and beast when things are over. I get that same look myself after a big thing happens. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Carol wrote:
Horse spots big green ball rolling toward him. In his haste to escape, the horse's feet go out from under him and he lands flat on his side temporarily knocking the wind out of the horse. The ball continues to roll up to and over the horse, coming to a rest on top of the horse's prone body. When the horse is able to breathe again, he looks up and sees................the big green ball pinning him down. At some point in time, the ball, aided by a breeze, rolls off of the horse and across the corral, permitting the horse to regain control of his feet. The horse stands looking shell-shocked, sees the big green ball and thinks, "Shazam, how did he do that?" It's possible.
Larry |
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| carefreegirl |
 that was funny...
and Carol I did read that post and subsequent post in their entirety and I am well aware (yet still open to learning about--so would still love to hear Mandy'sMarty thoughts on the photo) of the 'life changing effect' such exercises can create (I also read the 'Sam' thread on the SC and other similar stories) I still don't see how you can from one photo say that that exercise caused the horse to be shell-shocked, not saying he absolutely isn't or couldn't be, I was just pointing out that I've seen pretty much that exact same look on my horse and I sure haven't done any exercises with him that are usually labeled as 'life changing', and I was also pointing out what Buck is doing in that photo, and pointing out the fact that that photo is just a snap shot in time... I'd really love to see a video recording, but even that wouldn't give us a true understanding without being able to be there and feel the emotion/energy in the air, and stand next to the horse and feel it's energy and the way it seems to be feeling by it's body language and eyes before during and after... and then go back a few days/months/years later and see whether or not the exercise was truly 'life changing' in a positive or negative way, which would also require us to have observed the horses 'issues' for more then just a couple of hours before the exercise was even done, so that we have something to compare to.... it would make an interesting study (but would have to be done with so many horses and with so many different techniques and clinicians it isn't feasible nor ethical), I much prefer whenever possible as I stated in my other post that such 'life changing exercises' where only used as a last resort. lets be hypothetical lets put ourselves in Buck's shoes, he has gone to another country to do a colt start clinic and someone shows up with a horse that has some major issues, what are his options? here are some scenarios I thought of can you think of more? 1) he could ask the owner/rider to withdraw the horse from the clinic and recommend a professional to help them in a less time constrained environment then a clinic (this assumes that Buck knows someone in this other country that this person could go to that he believes could help) 2) if he is staying in the area long enough he could ask the owner to withdraw the horse from the clinic (would be refunded) but to pay for private training of their horse (which may not be financial feasible for the owner) 3)he could ask the owner/rider to withdraw from the clinic and ask them to seek a professional to help them in a less time constrained environment then a clinic, but in this scenario Buck has no idea who they might take the horse to, and may feel like the horse could end up more damaged and with more issues then it currently has if it fell into the wrong 'professionals' hands. 4) in all of the above scenarios if the owner for whatever reason refuses to withdraw from the clinic and really wants Buck to help this horse, then Buck could refuse (which would probably cause people to question why) and then the person would end up having to do either end of scenario 3, or to struggle through the horses issues themselves which could take years and could cause them or others to get hurt 5)Buck could continue on with the clinic without addressing this horse issues individually, which would keep the horse from progressing in the clinic, and wouldn't be much better at the end then it was at the beginning and Buck would have to hope/pray for the best (that no one gets hurt by it's kicking) (not very possible in this legal world of lawsuits, etc. and who would wish that if they thought they could prevent it) 6) Buck could do what he did do, help the horse in the way he thought would work to keep others safe, and to help the horse progress without the possible mistreatment of others, or the possible 'years' that the owner by themselves might take to get over these issues. this one also provides a environment with a lot of learning potential for those observing 7) if Buck refuses the owner could decide that financial, possible injury risks, and time wise it just isn't worth it for the horse and could turn it out to pasture (this may not work with this horse as it had social issues in interacting with other horses as I remember reading) or keep the horse in solitary turnout or the owner could put the horse down. I think scenario 1 or 2 is probably best followed by scenario 6... can you think of any other possibilities/scenarios that Buck (and the owner) might have in this situation? sorry for the long post...would still like to hear Mandy'sMarty thoughts on the photo. 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Val, I can see if you've done a lot of thinking about this.
I didn't say the horse was shell-shocked, I said the horse LOOKS shell-shocked to me. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like that horse is in shock, a sad, far away look, and she is deep inside herself (or himself, not sure). I have seen other horses like this, not just those I threw, but horses in traditional training barns that are on their way to becoming catatonic trance show horses. I wasn't there and don't know what other options he had. I personally and honestly have to wonder if this 'helped' this horse at all. It undoubtedly became safer to be around and with the other horses, but I wonder about the horse itself. It is about the Horse here. Not the clinic or clinician, or time available. I quit throwing horses because it broke their spirit. I'd rather the challenge of a free spirit then the safety of a robot. |
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| carefreegirl |
the above post the 'you' wasn't directed at you, I meant in general how can you...; other then the first paragraph and the request for Mandy'sMarty to share their thoughts the post wasn't directed at anyone in particular....that is what is great about this forum differing opinions all over the place but we usually stay civil.
Very Much Agree...but the clinic and the clinician, and the owner and time effect the horse and therefore are part of the equation to look at.
Also completely agree, those that want complete robots shouldn't be working with living beings...if only they could see it that way and if only the world was perfect. oh and just wanted to say that really don't know much about Buck other then what I have read on this forum, his website, and a few youtube vids, I plan to read his books and watch his dvd's some day but haven't yet, so I am not trying to defend Buck's actions in these posts or anything like that, just discussing the photo mostly and the actions/effects of 'life changing' exercises. carry on...
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| kristie |
Well after seeing the photos posted I have to say I am confused or maybe misunderstanding what happened other than those photos. The photos show a figure 8 thrown around the horse which (in my understanding) is a humane way of roping livestock. That is not a "taking away the leg" procedure is it? To me taking away a leg is what Pat did to the needle shy horse.
I agree with the previous poster that I would never want to be judged by a photo taken a split second in time. |
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| appellativo |
Not that it matters but here's my take on it from what I've read and looking at that photo. That horse had some ways about it that were a habit for him that didn't benefit other horses (or people it sounds like). Here comes Buck, doing some things that broke the patterns/habits of that horse. Of course that horse is going to look a bit like a fish out of water, maybe a little confused or worried. He is learning something new. I sort of equate it to a kid being corrected for an improper behavior or guided into a different response (like my kid screaming when he gets his hair washed. of course he's upset! but just because he's upset, doesn't mean I'm being mean or handling it wrong; it just means he doesnt like to have his hair washed. so in that time in between starting to handle the situation and the actual full resolution, there's going to be some moments that aren't sunshine and butterflies.)
In the picture, the horse is at liberty, it appears, and the horse is choosing (?) to stand next to Buck with an ear trained on him. It seems to me that he has the impression that...'now that I have had my mind trained away from these other behaviors by you, what happens next/what should I do/how are you going to lead/guide me now?' That's just my impression and it may or may not be correct!
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| carefreegirl |
liked your post appellativo
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Never one to miss an opportunity to stir things up, I feel compelled to ask the following question: In light of the animal communication discussion going on in another thread, is Mandy's apparent concern about the horse standing next to Buck a reason to reconsider your appraisal of the horse's mental, emotional, and physical conditions? Anyone?
Larry |
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| Playenatural |
No. I still see a young horse who had his world rocked, got a work out and has a lot to think about. He will be fine when he catches his breath and learns to live in his new reality. Nothing more. I too have seen that look before, it is common for RB types that worry a lot and think they have to do a lot to fit in. |
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| coveredbridgefarm |
Shannon, that was my initial impression as well but I don't think I see in the photo what some others see or appear to see. I also don't want to predispose myself to see in the photos just what I want to see. In other words, I don't want the horse to be ok just because I want it to be ok, and I don't want the horse to not be ok just because I'm looking for something to criticize or question.
I'm trying to eliminate all bias here and yet, I still want to learn as much as I can in every way possible. I can now look at that photo and see other possible diagnoses. My feeling remains that I should not read very much into a still photo which merely represents a moment in time to me. I was just wondering if anyone else thinks they can read more into the photo after watching, or participating in the AC debate. Larry |
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| KylieGodwin |
WOW  I hadn't read this thread until now.
My reality of the situation from my perspective as fencesitter did not include the horse's 'leg taken away'. Buck himself stated at the clinic that he throws a figure 8 loop to prevent the horse from choking around the neck. I did not see it as this horse's leg taken away at all. The rope was looped up under the armpit and caused very little restriction of that leg. Buck got the job done, quickly and effectively so the horse could move on safely with the tasks ahead. I saw that paint arab horse as one of the softest and most accepting of his rider/s (and his final rider was very nervous and unclear with his horsemanship) out of all the horses started over the three days. The horse started with no idea what was expected of him and finished with some clear ideas of what was and was not acceptable. This doesn't mean he will now instinctively choose the right answers but at least he has some lessons to draw alternatives from Very interesting discussion I must say
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