Need help re sunflower seed as horsefeed

Clarissa · Need help re sunflower seed as horsefeed

I would like to hear from people who use sunflower seed or oil as a feed for their horses. How much do you feed? What else do you give them in the same feed? What size horse & how much exercise do they get? All these things are very important when feeding sunflower seed or oil as it is nutrient dense & an unbalanced feed.

Has anyone stopped feeding it due to their horse getting laminitis?

2 months ago I was given 250kg of organic hulled black & grey combo sunflower seed in 250gr sealed bags meant for human consumption. It has been condemed due to some bags having an odd bit of contamination such as a little stone or husk.

I checked many online sources for nutritional info & quantities to feed to my horses & decided Sonny could have a full bag (3cups) per day & Cassie less due to being arab/lighter & Jude less due to already being a good doer. So I feed it soaked & Sonny gets 1 bag & Jude & Cassie share a bag mixed into plain soaked barley. Sonny gets a half dose of other high energy supplement feed too.

They have been eating it now 2 mths but I think there is a problem. Most internet advice said not to feed too much because of it causing inflamation in all joints & tissue including the hoof but the 250gram daily fell within all safe limits.

Jude has been intermittently sore (footed) lately which is unusual for her which set me thinking it might be the sunflower seed causing laminitis.

Now that they have been eating it for 8wks there is a definate change in hoof wall growth habit & temperature! The lower horn is shiny, cool & strong. Above it is rough, hot & I think flakey horn growing down.

I will post a short video tomorrow to show this growth.

It's the heat & the roughness that is concerning me. This new growth will be hitting the ground about when our next rainy season starts & if they have laminitis I will have 3 horses with compromised hooves.

The SFS is keeping the weight on them now which is why it was given to me. I can't afford enough horse feed this year to keep them ok. There is another pellet with another 250kg set aside for me too when this lot runs out so I have 2yrs worth of horsefeed if I want it.

But sometimes free is not always best!

Clarissa

Here is the promised short video & a photo showing Sonny’s hoof about 2mths after I started feeding the sunflower seed.
All 4 feet have the same heat issues.

Sunny Acres Ranch

There are laminitis rings present and actually even more pronounced prior to feeding the sunflower seeds from the pictures. The new growth looks fine, but the toe looks pretty long to me which can also be a factor for setting up laminitis. I have fed BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds) for a healthy fat source and have never had any problems. I rarely feed more than 1 cup per day to most of mine if they are of good weight though. You are feeding the seeds in shell, right?

thelmanelle

I have fed BOSS for years...no problems. I feed in the shell, also. They get what a bird would get...natural.

Clarissa

SAR, in my original post I said I was feeding hulled seed. I explained what it was & why it was. BOSS is fed to horses primarily because the black shells are softer & easier for the digestive system to break down so the nutrients are released. There is no difference in the actual kernel of the seed.

Since you’re relatively new to this forum you are most likely not aware of the considerable threads on the farrier section about Sonny’s feet. If you look at the latest thread you will find photos taken in June where I describe the timelines. They are not laminitic rings, more being due to changes of trim style, feed & heavy wet weather periods.

I too, have read that 1cup per day is about right for a horse in reasonable condition, however I would not put mine in that range yet. Sonny is able to have a richer diet than my others which is why I have already cut them back to 1cup daily even though they could do with a little more condition for winter. Sonny doesn’t hold condition very well during winter or while in work, so he can have quite a rich diet so he is still getting 3 cups of kernels daily.

I have decided (for good or bad) to not worry so much about the heat I am feeling in their feet. I will wait another 2 mths at which time the new growth will be 2/3rds grown out & things will be showing themselves much more clearly.

Sunny Acres Ranch

Hi Clarissa,
I read what you wrote about the seeds, but I didn't understand. Over here in the USA, we can buy sunflower seeds in shell for human consumption and you just crack them and spit the shells and eat the seeds. The BOSS has a lot of the oil for fat in the shell, so that is why I feed those.

You're right, I'm new.

I went and read the most recent thread on Sonny's feet in the Farrier section. What a journey! With horses that I have tried to put weight on or keep weight up in the winter, I choose to up the intake of grass hay pellets or cubes (soaked before feeding, of course). It is a more natural food source for the horse, but I don't know if you can purchase those where you are?

I haven't come across the laminitis rings forming after a hoof trim change or wet weather. The times I have seen it happen is when the food is too rich, and with some horses when they have been vaccinated or chemically dewormed.

learningthedance

Clarissa,

Not sure how expensive it is to get Whole Flax seed there, but here is really cheap for a sack from the feed mill. I use a coffee bean grinder and grind it up fresh each day. You can mix that with your BOSS and it will help bring your omeg 6 to 3 ration into a better ballance if your worried about inflammation.

BOSS contains only omeg 6, and zero omeg 3's (inflammatory). but still essential to their diet.

Flax seed contains 14% omega 6 and 58% omega 3 (anti-inflammatory)

I feed both to try to ballance things out a bit better. I read somewhere (I can find the link if you would like), that you shouldn't feed more then 8 oz a day of flax (8 oz pre-grinding, because it fluffs up so much) or it can have a laxative effect. It also has been written that ground flax can help with passing sand. More of a preventative measure so to say.

I got this link from the NRC Plus course.

http://www.balancedequine.com.au/nutrition/linseed.html

Anyways, just a thought. Oh, an if you decide to use it, use the Brown flax. Not the Golden, Genetically modified stuff.

alexwein

Anyone here using Cool Calories? Or Cocosoya? to provide essential fatty acids et al? Cool Calories 100 has been recommended and I've used it and she seems to do well on it. But I've been trying to find out more specifically how it is processed, since I don't like to give processed foods to my horse (or myself, for that matter!).

bit

Clarrissa , you can probably find more info on the web. I'm trying to remember, but think they need to be fed with vitiment B? Can be a bad thing without it? You'll have to get on the web and really dig on this one. If you do feed boss, make sure they do not have bird cote. Many of the bird seed boss, do. Lots of pro and con on this one. I'd consult the best possible info source. I'm finding when it comes to my horses, less is more. I give them supplements from smart pac, specific to their needs, a tiny bit of alfalfa pellets, daily wormer, and omega hoof supplement.

Kiparra

i feed Kip black sunflower seeds about 3 times a week in her feed which has 2 types of chaff, barley and millet.
I only give her about 1/2 cup each time i have heard that you shouldnt feed too muchmore than that per feed.

thelmanelle

I do about a half a cup, too.

Clarissa

SAR the ring where I changed the trim was because I apparently took too much off & caused him to be a bit sore footed for 2days.

Regarding the flax seed…. Unlike USA, we here in Aust have to put up with what our feed barns want to get in for us. Some are more customer friendly than others. I have never seen flax seed available for horse feed although it must be available in bulk because it is used in commercial bread making etc. Also our general retail market is smaller so many things just aren’t available. It is hard enough to get BOSS most of the year because there just isn’t enough grown for feed (most grown for the human consumption oil industry) or it is so valuable it goes overseas. Probably the same applies to flax. I could feed the oil which is available in bulk but as we know it goes rancid so they put chemicals in it. Same applies to SF oil & other versions of omega balanced oils available here. They call it buffered or something similar.

Last year I bought some BOSS from the local pet shop (decanted into 3kg bags for wild bird feed) which was an expensive way to get it as there was none at feed barns. I fed it for 8wks to Sonny at 1cup daily & it made no difference whatever. That’s why I decided to feed 3cups daily to him this year & was prepared to cut it down when I saw a good response in his condition. So far he is barely holding condition so not sure it is the SFS or his new (very expensive super nutrition) feed. The trouble is when you mess around experimenting with their feed & they loose weight it costs twice as much to get it back onto them as it would’ve if you didn’t mess with their feed in the first place.

The only reason I am feeding this SFS is I got it free. Otherwise my horses would just have to scrounge the best they can through the paddock & loose some weight during winter like last year. Because my financial situation is still very iffy, I can only afford so much. I want to keep weight on him so I can ride him in a saddle that actually fits.

There is 16ac of native pasture here but it gets way too course in winter to be of much value & anyway our native pasture goes right off once mature or dried out. I used to own a big ride on mower to mow the pasture with, but I sold it to fund the rent 2.5 yrs ago.

Then last weekend I had a situation with the hay. Currently I am in negotiation with the farmer I recently bought a ton of hay from because it was supposed to be quality weed free fresh cut Rhodes hay & it turns out to be full of dead spear grass which I definitely don’t want here. But he is reluctant to take it back. So I also have that financial bother hanging over me because that was all their hay for the next 6mths for the dry season. So my horses are not getting hay yet & won’t if I can’t return it which means they will have less to eat over winter & dry season. I will have to try to sell it as mulch for half price I paid (if I can sell it that is). Then of course there is the wasted cost of fuel to drive to the farm. In the end it would have been cheaper to just buy expensive hay at the local rip-off feed barn!

Anyway I always knew the SFS wouldn’t make a balanced ration for them but I thought it might still be ok. I will wait a while & look into it again.

Kiparra

oh the dramas of feeding horses!!

I usually just pump Kip with chaff and some barley with a few others bits and pieces.

I was able to sunflower seeds at the produce store in a 20kg bag. it isnt cheap. you cant it get in that form up where you are?

hope you can work it out with the farmer and get your money back.

Chablis

Kiparra

are black sunnies more of a southern plant?
i had a little trouble getting it cos the store was waiting for a delivery but i paid about the same amount as you.

Chablis

Kiparra

yes, they do seem to grow easily here too. if some get wet and they just sit there they will start sprouting. my neighbours major mitchell has them sprouting in his cage near his food and water.

thelmanelle

My horses, my dogs and the birds love them....

Chablis

As my horses love the sunnies so much (as do the magpies), sunnies are often seen growing in my paddock during summer.

Chamomile is often seen sprouting as well - my horses absolutely love both.

Kiparra

you must have relaxed horses then Emma, if they are getting into the chamomile! LOL!. isnt chamomile good for relaxation?

Chablis

Kiparra

lol, from what youve said about Darius's little antics no it doesnt seem to have made a difference! LOL maybe he needs more??haha.

Kip is the same, she doesnt change if she has oats or anything like that. i have to say i love not having a feral pony who jigs on the trail. the worst she gets is a fast walk, but thats about the only time she gets much energy going, mostly it short little bursts when i let her gallop. when it comes to the arena or doing 'work' she is the slowest trotting horse ever!! LOL...
Maybe she needs some Beroca!!

Chablis

Clarissa

The hot growth I had talked about at the start of this thread has almost reached the ground so I estimate within the next 2wks I should see why that hoof is hot. Most likely when I next trim their feet I'd say. All 3 horses are the same.

I think their hooves area growing much faster because it is nowehere near 6mths since I started feeding SFS.

Kiparra

Clarissa have you found out why there is hot growth in the horses feet? I hope you have been able to help it. How can you tell if there is hot growth in the hoof? Are you feeding SFS to help it or you think they may be the cause of it?

Clarissa

Just an update regarding feeding the sunflower seed minus the husks.

I had my feed recipe assessed by Dr Kohnke's analyst using that FeedXL software & she told me all was basically good.

I got the ok to do that as there is no nutritional value other than fibre & bulk in them. I have gone back to feeding 2cups daily of SFS kernels which equates to about 3cups of whole seeds which is the recommended rate for adult horses.

I was concerned about SFS causing inflammation due to being omega6 which is inflammatory & I still feel it may have contributed to the hoof problems my horses have experienced during the wet. Mostly because they all had hot feet after I started feeding the SFS & after I stopped feeding it their feet cooled down again. However I won’t know for sure unless I return to feeding them again & see what happens. I used to add canola oil to Sonny’s feed but stopped doing it because it was mostly to help him put on weight. So I will go back to adding it to balance the ratios of omega 3 to 6.

So in about a weeks time I will start feeling their feet to see if there is heat. I will give it 3 weeks for the heat to start showing then I will start feeding canola oil to get the ratio of 3to6 right again & test their feet again for a few weeks.

Clarissa

Yes today I felt the heat in their coronet bands for the first time.

5 weeks since I began feeding the SFS & there is the heat on cue.

It was a quite pronounced band right up in the hairline still. But as I know from last year, the band grows down until most of the hoof is hot. The demarkation line is very easily felt between the hot new growth fed with SFS & the older non-SFS growth. That is the power of the inflamatory omega 6!

Last week I began feeding 15ml canola oil in each feed to provide omega 3 which is the required amount to balance the quantity of omega 6 in the amount of SFS I feed in each feed. I hope in another 5 wks I will feel a cooler coronet band start to grow down..... hopefully

Chablis

Copious_Amour

I stopped feeding BOSS to mine. Don't need no stinkin' heat in my boys' hooves. Beginning to think less is more. Much of the horses I have rescued over the years, they had only been fed hay and a salt block and water. Healthiest horses I know. As soon as you start adding stuff is when you start having problems. Though I would like to feed BOSS, I worry I wouldn't be able to correctly ration out the vegetable oil to make sure there wasn't an ill side effect caused by an imbalance in Omegas. It would probably be best to consult with a nutrition expert first.

Chablis: What have you found when feeding BOSS?

Clarissa: What about just feeding ground flax? Does it have the same, but healthier effect as BOSS or whole 'nother can of worms entirely?

Clarissa

Chablis

Clarissa

I just read an article about Omega3 in the latest Kentucky Equine Research Nutritional & Health Quarterly ‘EquiNEWS'.

You may be able to find the article if you go to the website but incase it’s not there I’ll just give a brief account since it is 3 pages long.

Horses can make their own O3 because they eat plants containing ALA that grew in soil fertilized by rotted algae at some stage. The ALA is converted in the horse to EPA & DHA but it’s not a very efficient process. That would be because horses in the wild are not expected to be top notch athletes so they don’t need that much!

EPA & DHA originate from fish mostly whereas ALA comes from leafy green plants & seeds like flaxseed (linseed). Omega6 comes from seeds & grains like corn, sunflower & safflower. This means most domesticated horses get a diet way too high in O6 & the balance between O3 & O6 is way out of whack, particularly in horses that are performing at high levels & eating high grain diets.

The interesting thing about buffering the normal grain diet of performance horses with extra O3 is that it takes 28days for the O3 to filter through the body & begin to work. O3 significantly decreases the plasma concentrations of prostaglandin E2 which is the inflammatory mediator & also has same effect on white blood cells in joint fluid.

They stop at mentioning the exact ratio of supplementation but do say work is continuing at KER.

From what I see when reading the analysis panels of most produced ‘complete’ horses feeds is that the better ones do seem to be adding at least some O3 & O6 in what is thought to be a reasonable ratio here. Also there are a few ‘complete’ omega oil supplements on the market now. For example Dr Kohnke supplements now sells a 1 or 5gal drum of Omega3,6&9 combo oil (called Omega Gold I think) in what they say is the correct ratio. So if you fed mostly hay & some plain grain you could just add that but I do think it you fed a ‘complete’ feed you would have to be careful not to throw everything out of balance by adding yet another source of supplementation to the horse’s diet.

When I asked the Dr Kohnke nutritionist how much to feed, she said 15ml O3 oil like canola per 3cups whole Sunflower Seed or BOSS. The thing about canola is that it is a man made high yielding seed oil. I wonder if I should change to another source of O3 oil. Flax is out of the question since none for sale here is fresh enough to be free from rancidity & all is buffered with ‘stuff’ to stop that happening. Best to find another oil perhaps?

learningthedance

I buy whole brown flax seed from our feed store in 50 pound bags for about $30.00. I grind it fresh each day with a coffee bean grinder. The whole seed is the cheapest way to go, easiest to store and has the longest shelf life. A 50 pound bag will last a LONG time!! LOL You should not be feeding more then 8 oz at a time, so that's about 5 oz of whole seed before you grind it cause it fluffs up so much.

Great stuff!!

Horsemama · sfs

Whenever you change a horse's diet it should be done slowly, I didn't see you mention if you just started out feeding a whole bag or did you start with say 1/3 of a bag and over a week or two work your way up to more. I was feeding 1-2 cups a day to a Boarder's Horses and they didn't seem to have any issues. It was mixed in their regular horse feed.
I also have heard latley discusion about corn, and corn oil making causing joint inflamation. Sounds wierd to me, horses have always eaten corn in their diets.
One thing you need to consider is the vitamin and mineral balance your horses are getting, SFS alone are probably lacking some nutrients they need and may have too much of others if its all your feeding. In the US you can buy mineral blocks and powders to be added to feed or put out free choice. They are relatively cheep.

Hope this helped

Clarissa · Re: sfs

Need help re sunflower seed as horsefeed

sfs

Re: sfs