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bit

Nevzorov Haute Ecole and his impression of Parelli

I did not mention the Natural Horsemanship, this is probably nor fair. Saying Natural Horsemanship I mean the teaching of Parelli and his followers that left him, and all similar teachings, that are based on attempts to understand horse’s psychology. «Natural Horsemanship» must be treated with great respect. Due to its democratic approach it represents a perfect system that helps millions of horsemen to solve their problems.
But HN followers do not demand many of their horses.

Here I would like to distance Nevzorov Haute Ecole from Natural Horsemanship and to explain the difference between this two schools. We do not divide relations with horses into Natural Horsemanship and something else. A.Nevzorov was completely right saying: “No gentle relations exist. There are pathologic ones and normal ones” .

The major difference between New Hаute Ecole and Natural Horsemanship is in the fact that HN followers do everything to relax a horse, to reduce its natural spirits, to suppress its character, to make it convenient and we do everything to inspire, to enkindle a horse, to awake its interest and to reveal its full natural potential. We chose the most mettlesome, “hottest”, spirited and restive horses for training. Thoroughbreds after races and stud-horses are the best horses for Nevzorov Hаute Ecole. That is why our methods and knowledge are not open to general use.

We would like to warn you against Parelli's methods. All the work in saddle and with bits in Nаtural Horsemanship is like any usual work, as the bit is used again as an instrument for causing pain in the mouth. The rope halter is as well not so “simple” as it seems. It may have quite a painful effect on horse’s nose. Moreover, Nаtural Horsemanship horses do not work in a collection without the bit, and that is extremely harmful and painful for the horse.

http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/nevzorov_haute_ecole.php?sid=0&id=85
Niek

Nevzorov is an idiot (excuse my language). Altough some of the things he points out are indeed true for a portion of people doing "nh".

But he is a complete extremist, keeps his horse in soletary confienment etc etc.  Nor are his pictures anymore correct than what you see in the average horsemanship world.

People fall for the pretty picture i guess
ElaineC

Most if not all of Nevzorov's horses were traditionally trained by him before he switched his methods, so many of the things they are doing "naturally", they already knew how to do.  If you look at the training methods he used to get to where he is, and how he made the money to be able to afford to keep his horses they way they are kept, it tells a much different story about his character (or lack thereof).
bit

Ok, the guy is a jerk?  What about the training method?  The horses he has listed on his site were not traditionally trained.  (at least that's what it said)  I like the fact that he doesn't use shoes or bits.  I do.  It made me take another look at my halter.  It did.  I'm liking liberty more and more, and starting to rethink everything I've ever thought I knew.  It's why I like some of Carolyn Resnick's ideas.  
I want to give my horses the good deal.  The best deal.  I'm doing a lot of thinking since leaving the good ship Parelli.  Pat is not the man I thought he was, either.  There are things about him that would curl Parmalazones hair.  
They all have their stuff.  Some folk consider Pat Parelli a jerk, too.
It's that connection with the heart of the horse I am searching for.  Ray Hunt had it.  Tom Dorrance had it.  It's all pieces of the puzzle.  Take the little bit of good from everyone and put it together and offer it up to your horse.  See what he has to say.  Jerk?  Maybe.  Solitary?  Not my herd.  I'm searching for pearls, now.  There is no one training method, anymore.
whisperingwindfarms

Cmon Niek - tell us how you really feel!

   
Niek

bit wrote:
Ok, the guy is a jerk?  What about the training method?  The horses he has listed on his site were not traditionally trained.  (at least that's what it said)  I like the fact that he doesn't use shoes or bits.  I do.  It made me take another look at my halter.  It did.  I'm liking liberty more and more, and starting to rethink everything I've ever thought I knew.  It's why I like some of Carolyn Resnick's ideas.  
I want to give my horses the good deal.  The best deal.  I'm doing a lot of thinking since leaving the good ship Parelli.  Pat is not the man I thought he was, either.  There are things about him that would curl Parmalazones hair.  
They all have their stuff.  Some folk consider Pat Parelli a jerk, too.
It's that connection with the heart of the horse I am searching for.  Ray Hunt had it.  Tom Dorrance had it.  It's all pieces of the puzzle.  Take the little bit of good from everyone and put it together and offer it up to your horse.  See what he has to say.  Jerk?  Maybe.  Solitary?  Not my herd.  I'm searching for pearls, now.  There is no one training method, anymore.


Hes completely inconsistent. He wants the best for the horse, yet puts them in solitary confinement.

He talks about working the horse yet riding any longer than 15 minutes is considerd near a crime. And riding on the forehand is not done. Yet his site is riddled with photos of his horse on the Forehand.

He has in the past talked about how bad it was to ride trails with your horse.. Check out one of his "Friends" ..

My horse will act like a complete idiot to if i lock him up long enough btw..

You are right there is no one method. There is only good horsemanship . How you want to qualify the rest is all up to you
PasoBaby_CarolU

I put Nevzorov in the category of 'showman', more show then substance.   Like a trick rider.   His program is not for every person or every horse and only works with a naturally animated and impulsive horse.   I'd like to see him perform his miracles in a knee deep field with Anne's Halflinger.        Whereas Parelli could perform with her horse in that field.

I think he just has another spin on the same old NH.
bit

lol would this be one of those, "sour-faced mare-pissing hissy-fit matches somehow wind up as a race around the paddock, ending in a good munch of clover" moments?  I take it ya'll don't like this guy?  
I'm not trying to convince anyone this guy is the next koolaid master.  I found it interesting that he mentioned Parelli, personally.  Got ya'll tails swishing and ears back.   Shoot, I'm feeling all Leah-like!  Might pull off a snakey neck and hit the feed bucket.  Whoo Ya!
Niek

he actually used to like the l1 stuff of parelli there is even footage of them together floating around
cheerios

I've heard his forum members drink even more kool-aide than parelli followers. You have to say the right things and talk the right talk to even get an invite to join.

Have to agree to things like this:

"The main rule for the members of our School is to reject the usage of bits, any punishments and abuse of the horse. You must not support racing, jumping, eventing, etc. We want to gather the most advanced horsemen who are ready to change themselves and the surrounding horse world, who are eager to create the relationships which are mutually interesting and free of any violence."

Frankly, I think keeping horses stalled in isolation should count as abuse, but that's just me.
NCMtnGirl

All one has to do is take a look at the horses photographed on his web-site.  It's very clear there is nothing restful or at peace in the eyes of his horses.  

He's spooky to me-!!  I want nothing to do w/ his 'church'.  LOL!
Niek

You need some form of tension / rb behaviour to achieve these things.  So to that extend im not to bothered by that. But its about tricks more than anything (the so called "collection for example).. But i guess the pretty picture gets to people
thebundychick

As a former member of his forum - I can say honestly: the guys a jerk.

His followers ARE DEFINATELY AND UNDENIABLY WAY WAY WAY MORE in the way of "Drinking the KoolAid" than Parelli SC Forum'ers.

The forum??? Dunebuggy is a first class moderator compared to the moderators on that forum.

If you dont post - you get banned.
If you dont post nice positive things about NHC you get banned
IF you try to defend schools of thought like Parelli - you get banned

The word CULT springs to mind - When i joined the forum, someone had asked about Parelli on their - I came in about 7 pages into the forum topic, and posted a very relaxed laid back post regarding my experiences with parelli (some of you may remember my conversation on the SC Forum) I immediately had a million responses all trying to brainwash me out of Parelli.

Very very seriously scarey stuff.

I also found that they had very innacurate opinions of Parelli - they made sweeping statements that were actually increadibly untrue.

Like the whole using a bit thing: Sure, they use them ,but they also say "The only bit that stops a horse, is a bit of knowledge" Bits aren't somethign that the Parelli's beleive you MUST HAVE. But, if you're going to have one they have a range that they think is good.

"Bit" - I'm in the same boat with you about Liberty - Sante and I do nearly everything at liberty now: Grooming, Saddling, Bridling, Washing. 95% of our ground play is at liberty now.

But one thing is for sure - Couldn't have STARTED at liberty. I don't beleive a rope halter causes a horse any pain. My horse confirms me for it, everytime he sticks his nose in it willingly, when i hold it out for him

I will try to copy and paste the thread from the SC Forum - There were some good posts on it - It was posted at a time when i was really intrigued by it, and was looking at studying it..
Gallop On

On the outside, I see photographs of what seems like a beautiful relationship of horses playing at liberty, but like with a lot of horse trainers....you look a little closer and you see things that aren't right...
thebundychick

From the SC Forum - Sadly with no username tags on it:

Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 1:36 PM
I was trolling through Youtube.com today, and came across the most awesom e video's of a lady doing ground work with her horse at liberty.

in the tag fields of the video she had listed "Parelli" and "Nevzorov"

I've had a bit of a look on the Nevzorov website, but they're fairly tight lipped!!

Does anyone know anything about it? I've jumped on the forum and had a bit of a look, they all seem fairly misinformed about Parelli (typical!) (however they are much politer about how they critisize)..

Just not sure whether anyone has had any experience with it, and how they differ from Parelli?
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 2:10 PM
If you search Nevzorov on the parelli forum you will find several links where its been discussed.  You are ahead of me: I couldn't even get onto the Nevzorov forum (and wasn't that keen on selling my soul re: bits and horsesports!).
He certainly does some cool stuff, and its nicely presented photographically (his wife is a professional journalist/photographer).  As you say there is previous little info on how he acheives his results.  Apparently politically he is a very nasty individual, and I think this is reflected in his absolutist approach to people who don't agree with him.  It takes all types though, and I agree that cruelty in horsesports needs to be adressed and eliminated.

Personally, I much prefer Hempfling (see my signature): many of the results seem similar, but a method is outlined, and there is less stalinist posturing going on.  His first book is truly exceptional, and though I haven't fully learnt his method it strikes me as on another level of subtlety and relationship compared to Parelli.  Nevzorov impressed me in this way, but it seems to be deliberately impenetrable and thus suspect.  Parelli is at least acheivable, and I expect Hempfling will be also, but as I said I haven't really gone there yet.
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 2:23 PM
Thanks for the reply!!

You don't have to sell your soul to get on the forum (just agree to their T&C and your on)

A bit concerned tho -- I was reading about "breaking the forum rules" And they were getting all uppity about people disrespecting the teachers & questioning the methods And they said "DO NOT disrespect Nevzorov, for he is our Grand Master"

Bit um... weird?

They are very misdirected about Parelli, most beleive that parelli is about hitting the horse... they don't like the 4 phases..

There are a few there that have been defending Parelli, but from what I understand, a lot of people have been leaving the program because their horses get dominant & they don't have the skills to (or the right?) to assert their alpha status)

They don't agree with the "alpha status" philosophy, because they beleive that in the wild, no horses like to hang out with the alpha?

Hmm!? How Interesting!
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 3:01 PM
Hmmmm --Just got flamed on the NHE forum.. by non other than one of the NHE Reps..

I posted the following

"Hmmm Interesting topic!

I've been studying Parelli for about 6 months, and my Thoroughbred and I have recently moved into level 2.

I have to say, The feedback on Parelli has been fairly polite which is really nice.

I have found parelli has done wonders for my relationship with my horse.

He comes to me in the paddock. He walks out of his padock (away from his 70 other paddock mates) with me at liberty. He is gaining confidence everyday, and the watching the transformation is like magic.


I find the four phases logical. If you watch horses in the paddock, when the dominant horse wants one to move out of his way, he stares at him with his ears flat back (phase 1), eventually, his phase four is a swift kick or a bite on the neck.

Parelli doesn't teach that your phase 4 has to be violent, it has to be effective. I have a DVD where Linda Parelli's phase 4 was to gently flick the horse on the wiskers, it had the desired effect of getting hte horses attention, without damaging the relationship or confidence of hte horse.

Parelli doesn't condone violence or abuse. It does not encourage punishment. He doesn't encourage the use of bits until late level 2 or early level 3. His riding method is nothing like "traditional" methods at all.

It enables you to politely, respectfully and lovingly teach your horse that you are the "mob leader" or alpha horse (as every horse pack has one). Parelli encourages the horses confidence, encourages him to think, uses the make vs want ideology, and at the end of the day, My horse is better for it, our relationship is better for it, and the proof as they say, is in the pudding. One of Parelli's quotes is "Its not about the ride", Parelli concentrates on the relationship FIRST.

Having said that. Your parelli experience is only as good as your parelli instructor. If you have a Parelli instructor who isn't in it for the horse, then you're not going to have a good time. I don't have an instructor, I refer to their forum, the DVD's and the literature.

I found this forum and the Nevzorov website, because I was browsing youtube.com and there was a video of a woman& her horse who listed Parelli & Nevzorov in the tags of hte video. And I thought "Wow, I wonder what I can gain from this?" And as someone else stated in an earlier post. You have to dedicate yourself to something 100% before you can really see the results / pros vs cons.

I am not limited to Parelli. Pat Parelli himself is still learning, and is taking lessons from Walter Zettl! I firmly beleive that variety is the spice of life, and you can learn so much. I can't wait to read this forum thoroughly to improve my knowledge & relationship with my horse. Because at the end of the day, its all about the horse."

And got the following response:

"ogical ?! ....hmmm.... if you look a little bit at the facts ?!
Fact is that 99% of all conflicts between horses are ending without any physical contact....on the other hand ...99% of all conflicts between horses and humans are ending with physical contact !
And last but not least, there is the second fact.... the dominant horse in a group of horses is not the "boss"....every individual in this group avoid him but this doe's not mean that they respect him, because of his agressif and dominant behaviour. Contrary what Parelli and other "Natural Horseman" tell, there is no such thing as a peckorder A to B, B to C, C to D etc. (And I even don't talk about the Human = predator and Horse = Prey stuff...which is complete nonsense.)
with one individual on top of them all in a horse group....it is not that all watch at only one...everyone observerse everyone...the "real leader" is an inchangable individual, that ignore completly his momentary status and that is extremly passif toward the other ones.....which means this horse shows no signs of agression toward the other ones.
The reason while the Parelli way works, is based on active dominace ....it works because the selfpreservation instinct in the horse is highly developped and the horse just copes to this system to survive.

Taking these facts into consideration, the 4 Parelli phases are everything but logical.They might be "logical" for a human....but for sure not for a horse.
Fact is that the Parelli (and other systems) are made for humans...but not for horses, whatever these Natural Horseman will tell you."

Are they for real?
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 3:12 PM
oh my gosh!!! i found that site too, [thru youtube] and i looked through it a little bit, read some stuff, shook my head, laughed and went to the parelli site to chart horsenality.
its great that they can achieve 'great things' with their horses w/o the phases but you cant see wats behind the scenes!!!
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 3:57 PM
i wonder.. Why bother to make such a post on their forum. How would people respond here if for example an Anderson student comes in and starts telling that our respective visions on Anderson (either positive or negative) are wrong.. ?

Further more i do not find the reply to be flaming at all, and in all honesty strictly spoken your the troll their. He replyed in a respectfull non cussing mather and he gives a nice explanation on why he thinks that.

One of the best things about pat is that he doesnt openly critique`s others, he lets them do their thing and gives credit if they diserve it. Shouldnt we students do the same ?.

This all doesnt mean i am a fan of Nevzorov, as stated by me in other discussions i have some serious doubts about the way he achieves things. And remember  they are aloud to feel that same way about parelliers because remember : programs like these are as good as the people using it.
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 4:02 PM
Don't tell me you mentioned the b-word!  Big no non!

Actually the alpha horse theory is not undisputed even in NH circles: Mark Rashid is worth a read on that front.

I think what we learn in the early levels of Parelli are crude and limited compared to what is possible, but its about developing some safety, control and communication.  Its a bridge between our normal minds and the masters mind.  And it is a more effective and natural method than the average of whats out there.  That doesn't make it flawless or the only way.

I think Nevzorob and Hempfling have something special.  If they could package it like Parelli they could change the world, but they haven't.  Whose fault it that: Parelli's?  Nevzorov needs to work on his attitude toward the world and marketing or he will disappear into obscurity.  

I imagine Nevzorov has a high drop-out rate!  People get sick of being bitten or kicked by their horses after a while!
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 5:14 PM
dallas-you beat me to the punch-I was going to say it sounds very similar to Mark Rashid!
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 6:33 PM
Yep - the passive leadership theory - basically states that horses prefer to hang out with horses that:

1 - Are even tempered and dependable - consistent is a better word i.e. from moment to moment and day to day they will always act & react the same way. They are dependable in that way.

2 - Do not require other horses to expend large amounts of energy. Using energy is for 2 reasons - sorting out who's who (playing) and for fight or flight survival.

3 - Mark Rashid said at a recent clinic that the leader of the herd will generally be the oldest mare because she is the smartest. i.e. she knows where all the best grazing, watering, shelter, escape routes etc are through experience. The reason it will generally be a mare is because stallions come and go from herds unlike mares (unless stolen by another stallion).

1 & 3  can be adapted fairly readily to PNH I would think. 2 might take a little more thought ................  
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 6:37 PM

   I think what we learn in the early levels of Parelli are crude and limited compared to what is possible
   



Horsemanship is nothing more than Level one with excellence.  It is we that are crude and limited while first learning.

Nevzorov will not allow anyone into their school until the Parelli is knocked out of them.  They do not espouse any validity in the concept of Prey-predator relationship.  They do not allow any questioning of Nevzorovs philosophy.  They do not tolerate any comparison to PNH.  It requires, as they say, a complete paradigm shift.  They are an extreme behavioralist group.  All there is is observable behavior.  I say extreme as they only use part of behavioralist techniques.  Miss-applying the concept that negative and positive reinforcement do not equal good and bad.  They only use Positive reinforcement.  Similar to clicker training.   Good for them if that is what they want to do.
Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 7:04 PM
Nevzerov wouldn't be my choice of horseman to emulate, but anything that gets people away from some of the severe treatment that I see with normals is still better for the horse.  

Having read Rashid's books his theory of the obnoxious Alpha vs. the Passive Leader doesn't really conflict with my understanding of Parelli.  It seems to me to be more a matter of different definitions for the words.  Parelli talks about "passive persistence in the proper position" which I think fits nicely with Rashids idea.  When it comes to Alpha status, I would shudder to think that I am working toward becoming the mean spirited, evil tempered Alpha that I have seen terrorizing the herd in one of the pastures at the ranch where I board.  Of course the other horses avoid him.  That's not where my study of Parelli is taking me.  

Anyone who is not doing the things I see some of the "roper" crowd doing, like tying the horses head to the side of their saddle and leaving them that way for the afternoon to "learn to yield to the (severe) bit" is on the more natural side of horsemanship.  I can coexist with that.
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 7:12 PM
My PNH studies lead me to be a "benevolent dictator".
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 8:03 PM



hk2 wrote:



   My PNH studies lead me to be a "benevolent dictator".
   



OH PLEASE-you don't have that in you if you tried!
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 8:21 PM
Hey!  Couple of stiff drinks & I can be as nice & sweet as anyone.

A regular "Mr. Congeniality"......
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 9:05 PM



dallas wrote:




   Personally, I much prefer Hempfling (see my signature):.
   



:D
Love your signature Dallas.........Very beautiful   (...and I believe so true)


From my own experience with carefully watching a variety horses in different situations interact for over 45 years the statement :

 "ogical ?! ....hmmm.... if you look a little bit at the facts ?!
Fact is that 99% of all conflicts between horses are ending without any physical contact....

True; but...just shows how effective horses communicate with each other. They learn those "cues" so well from their dams, etc. BUT those phases we learn in Parelli are definitely used between horses! and the "99% of no contact" is a direct result of that effectiveness!!    

To me it's a Duh moment IMO  :lol:  With the passing of time in life I've found to trust my own eyes in a humble way and judge by the "fruits" that are yielded from any situation.

And BTW a Happy & Savvy New Year to everyone :D

P.S. I aspire to be as well versed in that communication as my horses are! A life-long endeavor for sure.
Re:Nevzorov method
Friday, 4 January 2008 9:09 PM
What alot of people don't know, is that the horses you see Nevzorov performing with, were all trained traditionally under saddle and double bridle.  Apparently he had quite the rep for being hard on horses, before he changed to his current method.  There's plenty of clips of the same horses from a few years ago being ridden under full tack doing the same moves.  If he can accomplish what he has done with those horses, from a completely green horse, without resorting to any other methods but what he's condoning now, I'll be impressed then.

What is a shame, is that he's managed to draw a number of extremists.  They seem to thrive in that environment, and it turns off people who are geniunely interested in his methods, but not the extremist attitudes of some of the others involved.
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 3:27 AM



Niek wrote:



   i wonder.. Why bother to make such a post on their forum. How would people respond here if for example an Anderson student comes in and starts telling that our respective visions on Anderson (either positive or negative) are wrong.. ?

   Further more i do not find the reply to be flaming at all, and in all honesty strictly spoken your the troll their. He replyed in a respectfull non cussing mather and he gives a nice explanation on why he thinks that.

   One of the best things about pat is that he doesnt openly critique`s others, he lets them do their thing and gives credit if they diserve it. Shouldnt we students do the same ?.

   This all doesnt mean i am a fan of Nevzorov, as stated by me in other discussions i have some serious doubts about the way he achieves things. And remember  they are aloud to feel that same way about parelliers because remember : programs like these are as good as the people using it.
   



I didn't go in there to start a fight. The discussion had already been going on, and the person who started it asked "Parelli? So what do we all think? has anyone done it, what results did you get, what do you think of his methods?"

It was inviting conversation.. I didn't set the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak. There were already a number of pro parelli posts there. There was also a lot of misconceptions posted.. That Parelli is about hitting the hrose, and lots of stuff that was just, well... completely untrue & misguided and written on the forum as law. I was simply giving my view point and trying to clear up a few things.. And i thought i was being pretty nice about it?
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 4:10 AM
I thought you were being pretty nice about it too.  I wouldn't take it personally.  I think the reply you quoted raised some good points that bear thinking about: you can learn from them too.  Disagreements like this are common in special interest groups.  Think of something lie PETA vs. RSPCA (ASPCA in US?) vs. greenpeace vs. vegetarians etc.  You'd think they'd all get on pretty well, there is so much overlap, but when people specialise in extremism, they seem to expend massive energy in conflict with other groups quite close to their ethical position: they are fighting over the little things, and losing the battle against the rest of the world.  They can hardly get on with people who agree with 80% of what they say, so they rarely even get into the same room as someone who disagrees with 80% of what they have to say.
Thats one reason Parelli is so successful: extreme middle of the roadists.
Whoever captures the middle ground will have the greatest support base.
The extreme groups are left to fight over the margins.
Nevzorov is interesting, but I'm not interested in personality cults.  Parellis is bad enough like that LOL.
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 5:03 AM
I don't see anything you said as "trollish" or negative.  You didn't accuse, you didn't talk down on anyone, and you didn't have a holier-than-thou attitude.  Don't feel badly!


As far as the reply goes... it's true, in herds, horses very rarely need to use P4 with eachother.  Most of the time a slight ear-back gets the desired result, so there's no need to go further.

HOWEVER... that is just because the horses have all reached an agreement with eachother and every horse in the herd knows that every other horse is going to follow through with what they ask.  How does this happen?  Take a look at a horse that comes into the herd for the first time ever.  Lots of "fighting", lots of P4, lots of dominance games.  Then time passes (sometimes 15 minutes, sometimes a day, sometimes a week) and the new horse "gets" the language and all is good.

The point is, a new horse doesn't just come in and live in peace.  It is not all butterflies and bunnies.  There is some sort of "honeymoon period" for all horses entering a new herd.

The problem with humans is that we are not horses!  We ARE predators and therefore we need to spend time 1) being accepted as part of the herd and 2) developing the understanding between us and members of the herd.  While the honeymoon period for the horse is short, it can be quite long for a new human.  That is why Parelli is packaged the way it is -- it's for NEW horsemen.  The next horse we work with, our "honeymoon period" will be shorter.  And the honeymoon period after that will be even shorter -- until you can become like Pat and become the leader within a half hour or less!!

But it has to start somewhere.  And that's why PNH is like it is.


One last note about their method... All positive is just as ineffective as all negative, imho.  If you have a "difficult" horse - bucker, rearer, biter, kicker, &c - an all-positive attitude is very likely to get you killed.  Just as if you have a RB horse (especially RBE and even LBE), an all negative program is going to get you killed.  Neither is good for the horse, imho.

Parelli is, imho, an "extreme middle of the road" program!

Many "normals"/cowboys see it as too positve.  Nevzorov and uber positive people see it as too negative.  Extreme middle of the road.  
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 5:09 AM
sorta random, but wat is 'imho'?? :D
everything just seems way too uptight in the other 'program'. the thing about parelli is that everyone is accepted. quite honestly, i dont really want my horse to be able to leap in the air. i want her to slide and spin. do i see that taught?? noooo god forbid! its WESTERN *gasp!*
my opinion; YAY parelli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 5:16 AM

   sorta random, but wat is 'imho'??    
   


imho = in my humble opinion

also
imo = in my opinion
imnsho = in my not so humble opinion!
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 5:21 AM
great thanks!
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 5:27 AM
imho can also mean "In my HONEST opinion".

At least, that's what I think when I write it.
Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 7:23 AM
I always think "In My Honest Opinion" also.

I had an interesting time navigating the site... to each their own - Parelli works for me and that's all that matters.
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 2:57 PM
Ok. I posted a reply to my original post:

"hanks very much for the reply..

Just a few things:

My horse is one horse in a mob of approximately 70+ horses. I see a lot of physical contact between the horses. I personally have been pulling my horse out of the paddock every weekend for the last 6 weeks with fresh bites / kicks on him as he tries to assert his dominance in the herd.

I aggree with you, that 99% of all conflicts between horses & humans end with physical contact. However, it should be clarified, what TYPE of physical contact are we talking about. In "Traditional" horsemanship methods, if your horse defies you.. You beat the spirit out of it, until it does what you want, but it only does it because it hates / or is afraid of you.

In PNH the physical contact is different. There is a major difference between discipline & punishment. If you're going to assert phase 4 with "I'm gonna show you whos boss" attitude then you have no right to be anywhere near horses, but if you're giving your horse 3 chances to respond to a suggestion (phase 1 influence the fur, phase 2 influence the skin, phase 3 influence the muscle & phase 4 - an effective method of gaining a response (Non violent), Your phase 4 simply needs to be effective. Parelli no-where promotes violence.

I would like to further understand your views on the predator / prey relationship between horse & man. I have come to this forum for knowledge, so please don't think that I am being argumentative. I really would like to know your ideology, I was simply replying to a topic on the forum, and was trying to shed some light on my experience with Parelli. Again, the prey / predator thing seems logical to me, would you mind explaining your view?

My experience with Parelli hasn't beenactive dominance, I have had my horse just on a year, and when i bought him, he was practically catatonic, no personality, no life, he was just a shell. a year on and i have a horse who has soft eyes, who meets me at the gate, who is willing to learn, who likes playing, and who is gaining so much confidence, that I hardly recognise my own horse."

And received this one:

"Since you ask for it...
lets talk about some (scientifique) facts...:

Natural horseman tell you exactly what you want to hear..
They tell you that we are predators because we eat meat...
because we do have our eyes in front of the face to have a 3 D vision,
because our hands close quick and open slowly, etc.
fact is : Predation is a must to survive for a predator without it he will die...for us it is just an option
the human is a very poor hunter compared to a real predator...we have already a lot of trouble to catch a fly ...or let alone a mouse with our hands... contrary to a cat for example
3 D vision is linked to our evolution, like quick closing hands...some 5 to 6 million years ago we where living in trees (since they where a lot of predators around it was a save place for us up there)...here it was very helpfull to have deep vision to judge distances from one branch to an other and to take a quick and strong hold on them ....the later you can still in any human baby that takes a strong hold on your finger and don't let it go...this behaviour you can trace back to the fact that our mom 6 million years ago was full of hair and living up over the ground in the trees ...here the little baby had all interest to take a strong hold in mom's fur...
our teeth neither our digiste system is layed out to cope with raw meat...the teeth are more made to munch on leaves and roots than to cut raw meat...
one of our closest cousins has all the attributes Natural Horseman bring up as "prooves" that we are predators....and this cousin is 100 % vegetarian...the Gorilla
Sure humans have hunted...but mostly we are scavangers than real and pure predators....even for the early humans with poor weapons at this time it was for sure much easier to shoo of some predators on a already killed or dead mammouth than to kill it by themself. Even still today if we use meat for food ...most of the time we "let it hang" a while to make it not only taste better...but it becomes also more easy to diggest in this case...so more scavanger like behaviour as predatory one...

The horse a prey ?
Also not ...being a prey is not a "24 hour job"....he only becomes a prey in the very moment a predator is after him... chances to survive are also higher for the so called prey than for the predator.
Almost all predators have more than one offspring at the time since only maybe one will have the chance to reach adulthood....contrary to the so called preys that have most of the time, like the horse or a deer, just one offspring. This is also the case for most humans...

So the prey / predator thing is also not realy logical !

These Natural horseman are right when they tell you that the horse will consider you as a predator..... what they didn't tell you realy is that this will be only the case when you act like one wink.gif


There are facts about horses and there are opinions about horses....for having oppinions go and buy a book or ask a human....if you want to know the facts about horses...go straight to the horse and ask him !

You mention aswell :
QUOTE
My horse is one horse in a mob of approximately 70+ horses. I see a lot of physical contact between the horses. I personally have been pulling my horse out of the paddock every weekend for the last 6 weeks with fresh bites / kicks on him as he tries to assert his dominance in the herd.


I think this is not linked to it because your horse assert his dominance in the herd...but due to the number of horses (approximately 70+ horses as you say) and the limited space for them...real conflicts occure only if they are to much horses on a to small place and resources are limited...even if you think that this place is big enough...it is just your oppinion...the horses don't think the same as at seems....because in nature they have space enough to get out the way of each other and groups are in general not bigger than max. 12 individuals.

So, nothing against Parelli or the other so called Natural Horseman....and what they tell you....but from a scientifique point of view it is most of the time complete nonsense .

Hope that these explainations might help you ?!"

I was please that he didn't try to criticise the heck out of me, but back to the topic.... What are your opinions on this? I will post my reply back to him later on..
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 3:38 PM
The horse a prey ?
Also not ...being a prey is not a "24 hour job"....he only becomes a prey in the very moment a predator is after him... chances to survive are also higher for the so called prey than for the predator.
Almost all predators have more than one offspring at the time since only maybe one will have the chance to reach adulthood....contrary to the so called preys that have most of the time, like the horse or a deer, just one offspring. This is also the case for most humans...



   Being prey is a 24 hour job, because you only need to be asleep on the job for 1 minute to lose your place in the gene pool.  Horses have evolved to fly from danger, but first they need to see it.
   The predator can always wait till the next prey animal comes along.... a missed opportunity to kill makes less difference than a missed opportunity to avoid being killed.

   The key element that makes humans more like predators than prey is our ability to cooperate to capture/kill prey animals, and our desire to catch horses!  A horse can't tell if humans want to catch it to eat it or catch it to pat it: they can't take the risk, because (see above paragraph) even if humans are safe 99 times out of a hundred, it only takes one time to make a dead horse.

   Any debate of whether humans are "really" evolved as flesh eaters overlooks one massive fact.  Every day, in every country around the world, tens of thousands of animals are caught and killed by people, and millions upon millions of people consume animal flesh.  If we were algae eaters, we would act differently to what we do.  Horses can see we are not "harmless" and thats enough for them to be scared and cautious.
   I agree with you many conflicts in horses are due to human imposed conditions: limited space, limited food (or concentrated food: only in bowls rather than whole fields of it)

Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 3:39 PM

   The horse a prey ?
   Also not ...being a prey is not a "24 hour job"....he only becomes a prey in the very moment a predator is after him... chances to survive are also higher for the so called prey than for the predator.
   Almost all predators have more than one offspring at the time since only maybe one will have the chance to reach adulthood....contrary to the so called preys that have most of the time, like the horse or a deer, just one offspring. This is also the case for most humans...  
   



Being prey is a 24 hour job, because you only need to be asleep on the job for 1 minute to lose your place in the gene pool.  Horses have evolved to fly from danger, but first they need to see it.
The predator can always wait till the next prey animal comes along.... a missed opportunity to kill makes less difference than a missed opportunity to avoid being killed.

The key element that makes humans more like predators than prey is our ability to cooperate to capture/kill prey animals, and our desire to catch horses!  A horse can't tell if humans want to catch it to eat it or catch it to pat it: they can't take the risk, because (see above paragraph) even if humans are safe 99 times out of a hundred, it only takes one time to make a dead horse.

Any debate of whether humans are "really" evolved as flesh eaters overlooks one massive fact.  Every day, in every country around the world, tens of thousands of animals are caught and killed by people, and millions upon millions of people consume animal flesh.  If we were algae eaters, we would act differently to what we do.  Horses can see we are not "harmless" and thats enough for them to be scared and cautious.
I agree with you many conflicts in horses are due to human imposed conditions: limited space, limited food (or concentrated food: only in bowls rather than whole fields of it)
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 3:45 PM
Nice response!!

for the time being I'm just being really "interested" on the forum. My intent is not to start a war, but to research this method thoroughly. For the time being I'm a little concerned with the passive dominance thing, they openly encourage you letting your horse bite you?!

But at the end of the day, I'm not on the forum to start a war, I just want info, but more importantly I want to know Parelli's opinion on their methods / ideas etc
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 3:58 PM

   These Natural horseman are right when they tell you that the horse will consider you as a predator..... what they didn't tell you realy is that this will be only the case when you act like one
   

I would enlighten him to the FACT that on this point he agrees (almost) perfectly with Parelli :shock:  Except for the fact that horses will in the first instance assume you are a predator until you PROVE to them that you are not.

It's almost as if he thinks Parelli is teaching us to behave like predators - like he has his wires seriously crossed

   There are facts about horses and there are opinions about horses....for having oppinions go and buy a book or ask a human....if you want to know the facts about horses...go straight to the horse and ask him !
   

In response to this comment, I would ask him that if.......

   ...I have had my horse just on a year, and when i bought him, he was practically catatonic, no personality, no life, he was just a shell. a year on and i have a horse who has soft eyes, who meets me at the gate, who is willing to learn, who likes playing, and who is gaining so much confidence, that I hardly recognise my own horse....
   



..... then what facts are my horse telling me?

As for the comments about limited space causing physical contact:
1. Does he even know how much space they have?
2. When horses play/kick/bite, they often do not move away from eachother even though they have ample room to do so
3. When horses play/kick/bite, it is not always over resources
4. Given the FACTS observable by watching the HORSES in 2. and 3. above, interaction and physical contact are plainly NOT always about space and resources.
5. In considering 2. 3. and 4. above, what do YOU think the play/kick/bite is about if not for pecking order? What is the FACT to be learned from these observations?

He's basically using the old tactic of putting you on the defensive. You wisely asked him nicely what his OPINIONS were. Somehow he has tried to imply that what he says is fact and what Parelli says is opinion. It's time to challenge his so called FACTS and reveal them as opinions because what he is saying just does not ring true with what I observe with the horses in our mob.
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 4:35 PM

   When i bought him, he was practically catatonic, no personality, no life, he was just a shell. a year on and i have a horse who has soft eyes, who meets me at the gate, who is willing to learn, who likes playing, and who is gaining so much confidence, that I hardly recognise my own horse....  
   



The powerful thing about Parelli and other NH methods, even if they appear very bossy/rough, is that they horses seem to like the "alpha" human a lot more than their pushover owners!  After some very assertive games etc, a horse that was sour, difficult and withdrawn instead becomes like a happy camper, ears forward, watching everything the alpha does with apparent adoration and relaxed pleasure.

It really isn't fair!  There is a lot of skill in doing this well, and it can be very physical (if the horse has been turned a bit nasty: often by being spoilt), and certainly upsetting to an owner who thought they had a cute little pet animal and treated it that way.  Yet the horse is happier once it is  in its place.

My farrier (Arthurk) has a great expression for this.  
"The horse doesn't care who is boss so long as he knows who it is".  By making it clear, your are setting things right in his world.

I'd love to be able to handle horses the way Nevzorov claims to, but in the meantime, I will stick to doing it the NH way with as much skill and respect and rapport as I can.
Re:Nevzorov method
Saturday, 5 January 2008 4:49 PM
Or how about those of us lucky enough to have horses that prefer to be with the human than with the other horses?

One of the things I've noticed is that in PNH and even most dressage we ask the horse to do things they would normally do, move the way they would normally move in the natural.

The most striking picture I've deen of Nevzerov is the ones with his horses jumping high straight up in the air - I've NEVER seen a horse do that in the natural and never heard of one doing it either
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 3:02 AM
I've seen a photo of a horse doing that in the paddock, and they certainly love jumping around.
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 3:40 AM



dallas wrote:



   The powerful thing about Parelli and other NH methods, even if they appear very bossy/rough, is that they horses seem to like the "alpha" human a lot more than their pushover owners!  After some very assertive games etc, a horse that was sour, difficult and withdrawn instead becomes like a happy camper, ears forward, watching everything the alpha does with apparent adoration and relaxed pleasure.

   It really isn't fair!  There is a lot of skill in doing this well, and it can be very physical (if the horse has been turned a bit nasty: often by being spoilt), and certainly upsetting to an owner who thought they had a cute little pet animal and treated it that way.  Yet the horse is happier once it is  in its place.
   



Man, isn't that the truth!  I know with my LBI horse, I think I'm doing such good things by being all soft and quiet - and yet things just get progressively worse and worse until he just stops caring about me.  But then the SECOND I become assertive and leader-like, he's happy to be around me.  It *isn't* fair - but that's the way I've seen it to work!

Dallas said about everything else I wanted to say in response, so I won't go there, but I am curious -- where is this mod from?  English does NOT seem to be his/her first language and it was really hard to understand what he/she was saying.
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 7:31 AM
Nevzorov method is simply another school of thought. Another choice for someone to make. They are a bit militant in not opening their doors for others to question or converse. Who knows why this is so. Possibly it is cultural coming from a nation that only 15 years ago was not a democracy. But, we must think outside our box to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinions and something can always be learned from everyone. Even those you do not agree with.
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 8:08 AM
I agree, and its been said on other threads: looks to be great potential but why all the secrecy/antagonism.  As you've said, probably largely cultural, but some of it so smacks of totalitarianism and I doubt that encourages many people to find out more.
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 8:13 AM
For those intruiged by Nevzorov, but can't stand the flaming, the 'dark' feel, the lack of actual practical advise, the soul selling..... (on and on!!!) try going to www.artofnaturaldressage.com  It is a bitless site, but if you admit to using one they won't hang you or anything.  There is tons and tons and tons of practical advice!  The members are comprised of those in the Nevzorov online school that got kicked out or left (mostly kicked out :lol: ) and those who do a lot of clicker training.  It is all about positive reinforcment.  They aren't crazy about PNH, but they feel it is a far step better than most forms of supposed  "horsemanship."  SOme of the peope there are quite advanced and it is one of the few forums as friendly as this one.  I have seen many people disagree with each other, but they don't flame.  They all say "I've been there- you'll learn>" and that is as bad as it gets!
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 1:08 PM
Hoooookay......!! For the latest Gem:

The latest post (not from me this time):

Thanks a lot Donald, from the moment I'll get the DVD I ordered and study the ABC of NHE I'll start and come back and give you the results I have to get a clear picture in my mind of how to start.
1) I'll pick up my mare without halter, just the rope around her neck to bring her to the playground, is it so?
2) I'll leave her free and start to try from a short distance first to throw her the ball and wait. if she does not give back the ball and just look at me, I do nothing, is it so?

You see today, i tried to bring her (with halter) to the playgroud and I let her free and showed her how to put one foot on a pedestal, she looks at me as if she was asking me if I lost my reason. As I saw that she was not mooving and very unsecure. I put the rope, she licked her lips, felt like releaved to have the rope again and than put the foot on the pedestal. I didn't understand why she needed the rope and the halter (they are alwas loose) to feel secure and do the things. Probably because she is used to. Nevertheless, upto tomorrow, even if she looks at me with this strange expression, I will just assist to what she offers."

And the moderators reply:

Thank you very much ...I have forgotten to mention this...Natural Horseman tell you that "when the horse licks his lips and chews...he understands"...sorry but also this is wrong...it is linked to stress... the stress causes a dry mouth (just like in humans) so higher the stress level...more the horse licks and chews...you can see the same behaviour in a thirsty horse....So if you see a horse "under the hands" of a Natural Horseman and this horse licks a lot his lips...don't believe one word of what the Natural Horseman will tell you..."that the horse starts to understand"...listen more to the horse than to the guy...the horse will tell you very clear what he thinks about this Natural fellal


Keeping the stress-level as low as possible in the Horse should be your main target...you don't need to be a genious to raise it...but the real challenge is to keep it extremly low"
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 3:36 PM
I'm enjoying artofnaturaldressage.com  Thanks for the link!
Re:Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 3:41 PM
@blueflame : ive seen horses do that..

@the bundy chick, i wonder: why are you trying so hard to put them in a bad light ?. They are deffently not the only ones thinking that liplicking has got more todo with stress, ive seen some programs with equine behavourist specialists who had that same opinion.
Nevzorov method
Monday, 7 January 2008 6:18 PM
Okay, so this is always a fun topic :-) I just wanted to contribute a few tidbits that I happened upon. These are two posts from the Nevzorov forum that were posted on another blog that I frequent. I think this is where some of the problem lies.....it's one thing for a very well versed horseman to attempt these techniques, but something completely different when greenies who have no idea about body language attempt it....

"My pony bites. Relentlessly. Many people in this forum have told me that they have had young horses that bite and they outgrow it, or whatever. It is certainly a baby bite, not a mean bite. He is a year old, he has hurt me a lot, broken skin, hurt others, scared others, it's not okay. I cant lead him, it is difficult to put on a halter because he bites my hands. When I am leading him and I push his mouth away, he rears and that gets very dangerous and we get nowhere. But I will not hit him or punish him. WHEN will this STOP???  When will he outgrow this? How long does it take? I'm trying not to be impatient, I dont expect this to go away overnight, but I am getting hurt! Other people are getting hurt! I try to send energy and thoughts, very calming, and envision my desires in my mind. I also try to think about what pleasure he might get from biting, but of course, it is difficult. I try to impress upon him with my mind that what he does HURTS and I dont want to be around him when he does it. "

"I'm considering buying a horse, just to have as a pet. Theres this beautiful black stallion about 5.6 feet tall that I want to buy to recue him from his horrible owner. At the moment he is been used as a money making machine for covering mares.  I want to keep as a stallion as I don't want to mutillate his natural state. His current owner always has a bit in his mouth when taking him from the stable to the field about 100 yards walk. He rears constantly and bits him a little. I think this is because the horse hates him. So in my quest to save this horse I have converted my garage into a stable and I have rented a five acre paddock down the road about a half a mile away just beyond a neighbours stud farm. How high should i have the bounds of my field as it borders another field with many mares? -Do you think the neck string is the right tool to lead him with? The current owner has advised me only to lead him when he has a bit in his mouth but I know he is an ignorant man, so i don't care what he says. - where do i get a neck string?  I am so looking forward to having this horse.  I plan to keep him in at night and leave him out early in the morning before i go to work. This is my first horse. I was wondering how I get good advise to manage this horse as i will only accept the best for him in a purist natural system."

Both taken from http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspo...-happy-thoughts-will-he-stop.html
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 12:31 AM
O...........M..........G  :shock:  
Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 12:39 AM
Im sure we will hear more about these two. It wont be from them, only about them.
What a shame......
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 1:03 AM



Niek wrote:



   @blueflame : ive seen horses do that..

   @the bundy chick, i wonder: why are you trying so hard to put them in a bad light ?. They are deffently not the only ones thinking that liplicking has got more todo with stress, ive seen some programs with equine behavourist specialists who had that same opinion.  
   



Ok. For the second time -- I am trying to find out the difference between the two methods, I have been thinking that i could learn a little bit from NHE, but when they start write things that are completely opposite to parelli -- licking of lips is bad, no such thing as prey / predator, horses hate dominance in any form etc etc.. you start to wonder whether dabbling in NHE as well as PNH is a good thing, as they seem to have completely different opinions.

Then you start to doubt what your doing, because they can produce all this "evidence" that supports the fact that licking & chewing is a sign of stress, not "oh i get it", and why would you do that to your horse?
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 1:13 AM

   because they can produce all this "evidence" that supports the fact that licking & chewing is a sign of stress, not "oh i get it", and why would you do that to your horse?
   


Couldn't it be evidence of both?

Perhaps coming off that 'stress' as they 'get it'?
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 1:20 AM



hk2 wrote:



       because they can produce all this "evidence" that supports the fact that licking & chewing is a sign of stress, not "oh i get it", and why would you do that to your horse?
       


   Couldn't it be evidence of both?

   Perhaps coming off that 'stress' as the 'get it'?
   



I remember learning calculus - even though I really like Math, Calculus was still stressful to learn.  I think many things are stressful to learn.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 1:32 AM
There is a Frenchman by the name of Donald U. Newe who (according to his website) has studied Tom & Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Nuno Oliveira, Michel Henriquet etc. He also happens to be an Official representative of NHE. He travels around the world doing clinics.

Since his supposed backround spans the spectrum - he may be your best bet for getting a balanced perspective on the various methods/philosophies. Some people I know have attended his clinics and speak well of him.

He is doing a clinic near Gosford March 22-24 if that is near you, following clinics in New Zealand. Otherwise you could visit his website and have a look around. What is written there under philosophy and behaviour are almost Parelliisms such as

   In fact, they don´t care at all about how much you may know, they only want
   to know how much you care for them!
   


Google "Donald U. Newe" and it will come up at the top of the page.
Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 3:04 AM
Jumpy, I would Loooooooove to read the replies that are given to those two folks especially before the guy who is buying the stallion soon exits this earth.
Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 4:44 AM



jumpymeister wrote:



   

   "I'm considering buying a horse, just to have as a pet. Theres this beautiful black stallion about 5.6 feet tall that I want to buy to recue him from his horrible owner. At the moment he is been used as a money making machine for covering mares.  I want to keep as a stallion as I don't want to mutillate his natural state. His current owner always has a bit in his mouth when taking him from the stable to the field about 100 yards walk. He rears constantly and bits him a little. I think this is because the horse hates him. So in my quest to save this horse I have converted my garage into a stable and I have rented a five acre paddock down the road about a half a mile away just beyond a neighbours stud farm. How high should i have the bounds of my field as it borders another field with many mares? -Do you think the neck string is the right tool to lead him with? The current owner has advised me only to lead him when he has a bit in his mouth but I know he is an ignorant man, so i don't care what he says. - where do i get a neck string?  I am so looking forward to having this horse.  I plan to keep him in at night and leave him out early in the morning before i go to work. This is my first horse. I was wondering how I get good advise to manage this horse as i will only accept the best for him in a purist natural system."

   Both taken from http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspo...-happy-thoughts-will-he-stop.html
   
   



These are hilarious, but I'm convinced the second one is bogus.  Its exactly how I'd write to take the mickey out of the "just love your horse and it will do what you want" mentality.  Assuming its real: very scary.
Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 5:51 AM
They were posts months ago on the NHE forum...I would love to find the replies too! If you would like the commentary (that is hysterical) click on the fugly horse link I posted :-)
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 6:08 AM
Bundychick,

What is working for you and your horse? What is your horse telling you? Is he/she running from you in the pasture? Biting, kicking or quietly standing with you when he can be 3 acres away with his buddy gelding?
Education in any forms will do nothing but make you grow. Parelli, Lyons, Nevzorov. Noone will be able to live in your head or in your horses heart. Maybe you take the ball game with you, maybe you "take the time it takes so it takes less time".
Honestly, who cares? Do you care what method I use if it doesn't hurt my horse? I didn't think so. If you become an expert in 25 years we may be studying BundyChick Equine Communication. It is all relative.
What I am trying to say is, do what you think is right. I feel it is as basic as that.
I made this exact journey 4 months ago. I felt I had to do what was the best for the horse. The most natural natural horsemanship. But what is NOT the best for my horse is to shut myself off to others who may have as good ideas as me, if not better. That is narrowminded and not the best way to build my knowledge base. Not to mention, our relationship with them isn't natural in the first place. It needs to be REDEFINED.
I feel good in the decision I made to walk the Parelli Path as cultish as that may sound. I also do not feel ashamed to say, "Hmmm, how interesting!" When I hear something else like, licking lips means stress. I know now I have more homework to do and I will wait for Doc to tell me the true answer.

Ok... I am climbing off of my soap box.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 6:22 AM



EdenL wrote:



   Bundychick,

   What is working for you and your horse? What is your horse telling you? Is he/she running from you in the pasture? Biting, kicking or quietly standing with you when he can be 3 acres away with his buddy gelding?
   Education in any forms will do nothing but make you grow. Parelli, Lyons, Nevzorov. Noone will be able to live in your head or in your horses heart. Maybe you take the ball game with you, maybe you "take the time it takes so it takes less time".
   Honestly, who cares? Do you care what method I use if it doesn't hurt my horse? I didn't think so. If you become an expert in 25 years we may be studying BundyChick Equine Communication. It is all relative.
   What I am trying to say is, do what you think is right. I feel it is as basic as that.
   I made this exact journey 4 months ago. I felt I had to do what was the best for the horse. The most natural natural horsemanship. But what is NOT the best for my horse is to shut myself off to others who may have as good ideas as me, if not better. That is narrowminded and not the best way to build my knowledge base. Not to mention, our relationship with them isn't natural in the first place. It needs to be REDEFINED.
   I feel good in the decision I made to walk the Parelli Path as cultish as that may sound. I also do not feel ashamed to say, "Hmmm, how interesting!" When I hear something else like, licking lips means stress. I know now I have more homework to do and I will wait for Doc to tell me the true answer.

   Ok... I am climbing off of my soap box.
   
   



I know exactly what your saying, I suppose, I'm just .... afraid I'm wrong, I guess thats it.. I just want wants best for my horse, and I don't know enough. Yes my horse runs to me in the paddock, Yes he comes to me even if we get the game wrong, My "draw" seems to be really good, this is why i'm confused.

Jim: Thanks for your comments, that makes sense as well.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 6:29 AM
TheBundyChick,

I know I've heard Pat say this, and I agree, get proficient with one method/program (whosoever it is), then look at other stuff. If you try to incorporate other program's stuff into your current program you might wind up confusing the issue (and your horse) and you may not get your disered results.

As far as with the licking and chewing, MY observation with MY horses has been that when they are stressed they tend to be tight-lipped. When they are coming off of stress/fear/adrenalin they lick and chew and lower their heads and relax. My horses only seem to lick and chew when they are in a more relaxed state.

I would like to see this "moderator's" scientific studies. I too am curious. I'm sure, as with most behavioral sciences, if you can find 5 scientists to support a position, you can find at least that many to oppose it.    
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 6:56 AM
I do canine massage, learned years ago to help with my own canine athletes, and do friends dogs, cats, horses etc.  The licking/chewing is not just in horses, its also in any other animal.  When I do massages, any release of tension causes a yawn, lick/chew reaction.  Horses do it too while being massaged.  There's alot of work on calming signals that animals give off, licking/chewing is one across several species.  Its a sign to say "I'm ok, you're ok, we're ok" kind of - definately a release of tension will trigger it though, either mental or physical.

Ever had a good massage yourself?  Or even a good chiropractor.  Got home, got the sleepies bigtime, or started yawning even while there?  Same thing I think.

Who's right, who's wrong - who cares.  We'll never know, all we can do is observe and use what we know, either right, wrong, good, bad, and learn from it.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 6:59 AM
Just a couple thoughts...
I think the amazing thing about the whole "Nevzorov" thing is that it seems someone...this Nevzoro...is even capable of what he does. I think people are saying, is it possible? I think that is what all the "excitement, "good or bad" is about. Now, I don't know if it is, but, just the idea that people could wonder, or maybe those talented enough, would try, ~is something.

as in anything, there are some people who are going to do it very wrong. Those examples are so going to end up bad. But, even the great Tom Dorrance said " with horses you have to get their respect before you get their response. With other horses, you will try to get a response in order to get their respect. Respect and response can be closely associated, but they can be quite a distance apart at difference times, maybe even in the same horse, at different times in the process".(True Unity)

Again, we hear "follow the program, don't mix (Parelli) with other people's programs". I will suggest Pat did himself. While I do not claim I am a "Pat Parelli" I do think that I, and many others in this  "Parelli Program" do get to point that we are smart enough, know enough, to "handle" it. If Pat or Linda had never came to that part in their learning journey they would have never got where they are today. Never limit your horizons, whether they be horsemanships or any other thing else you feel and know you are ready for. Never believe someone has all the answers.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 7:13 AM



cynthia peterson wrote:



    Again, we hear "follow the program, don't mix (Parelli) with other people's programs". I will suggest Pat did himself. While I do not claim I am a "Pat Parelli" I do think that I, and many others in this  "Parelli Program" do get to point that we are smart enough, know enough, to "handle" it. If Pat or Linda had never came to that part in their learning journey they would have never got where they are today. Never limit your horizons, whether they be horsemanships or any other thing else you feel and know you are ready for. Never believe someone has all the answers.  
   




As many have said, mixing and matching while you are in the early learning stages of PNH is a bad idea. Once you are far enough and solid in the program and are proficient enough, then look at other methods, incorporate the good and toss the bad. If you try to incorporate other methods while you are in the early learning stages and haven't achieved a solid foundation, you may wind up doing more harm than good. I don't believe it was ever intentioned that people weren't smart enough to tell the difference. I think it's more about creating a solid foundation so as not to confuse yourself and your horse. I was a little put off when I first was told that, but now I understand it and agree.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 7:33 AM



eclift wrote:



   I do canine massage, learned years ago to help with my own canine athletes, and do friends dogs, cats, horses etc.  The licking/chewing is not just in horses, its also in any other animal.  When I do massages, any release of tension causes a yawn, lick/chew reaction.  Horses do it too while being massaged.  There's alot of work on calming signals that animals give off, licking/chewing is one across several species.  Its a sign to say "I'm ok, you're ok, we're ok" kind of - definately a release of tension will trigger it though, either mental or physical.
   



Dogs also lick as a submissive signal: they are paying attention and deferring to you.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 8:19 AM
Bundy Chick

I have been reading with interest this particular topic, and went and had a look at the site you were talking about.  It's nice that the mod. didn't slam you for your post.

In my opinion, after watching that lady with her horse I had 2 thoughts.

1.  It is working for her and her partner.  They both looked as if they were having a ball and there was a lot of love between them.

2.  If Nevzorov doesn't like Parelli and wants all the Parelli out of you before you start his programme, then why on earth did that lady put both names in her video and put it on the internet?

Hmmm....how interesting.  Maybe there is good in both programmes that meld together well. Who knows, but if that lady is an example, what a wonderful example she is that she has learnt some really cool things.  At the end of the day, her horse really does look happy and seem to be enjoying him/herself.

Don't beat yourself up over not having the all the answers.  I think you are doing great by looking around for more info - isn't that what Pat and Linda do all the time?  It's great.  

But, from what you have posted of this person, they are yet to disclose any 'evidence'.  The only evidence that is there, is that the human mouth is not designed to eat meat raw or cooked and the teeth and structure are designed for fruit and vegetables.......does that mean we are not predators? Dunno.  The rest of his 'evidence' is learned opinion, just like ours.

By the way, sounds like you are doing a wonderful thing for your horse.  You have a lovelly relationship with him and are very lucky!  Good for you!

Thanks for listening to me dribble - I'll go now
Karen
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 8:20 AM
P.S.

I've read on other forums people slamming Parelli and how secretive it all is and you need to pay before you learn the seven games and how to play them....

How interesting.
Re:Nevzorov method
Tuesday, 8 January 2008 12:28 PM



new2thejourney wrote:



   I've read on other fo
PasoBaby_CarolU

That was an interesting and long read.  Kind of hard to follow who said what and when.   A lot of duplicate postings.  

It appears that 90% of "facts" are made up on the spot though.  LOL
4theloveofjake

He sure can make 'em rear ! Is that a good thing ??? Not to me !
PasoBaby_CarolU

4theloveofjake wrote:
He sure can make 'em rear ! Is that a good thing ??? Not to me !


Not to me either.  I've had two bad rearing experiences.   The first was watching a beautiful and loved Arabian stallion rear up for 'show off.'  but this time he lost his balance, went over backwards and tore his aorta.  He died within a minute.    The second was when Tina reared after refusing a jump, lost her balance and came over on top of me.  I was under her and lucky to survive, with sprained neck and elbows, cracked ribs and traumatic asphyxia.   I wasn't 'normal' again for days, and I still have neck problems from that (or another) fall.  

That's part of why I like to start my own horses.  No rearing.  I don't even go there.   If they start to act uncertain, I find a different way to ask the question.
4theloveofjake

OMG Carol, you are a lucky lady to still love and ride horses after that ! I see no value in rearing in the horse/human relationship. It just seems he is 'showing off' in my opinion. Look what I can make my horse do ..... yeah, look at at how wonderful I am !  
Niek

I dont really agree with that last statement. The buildup towards it or even the rear it self can have his postive benifits in the human/horse relationship.

I consider it to be in the same area as laying down. Doing that properly and using that to achieve something without destroying the  rest is extremely difficult
bit

This has been really interesting.  I was hoping you all would have a little input.  lol!  I'm thinking Niek is probably right about the rearing thing.  It isn't an uncontrolled, right brained or dominate move, it was asked for and given.  At least that's what I saw.  
You guys know me.  I'm the one that dissected all my Christmas toys.  I really want to know how, and why but saw no answers in that web site.  Saw some pinned ears, and that was a flag.  Not real interested in joining any other forums.  I left the last one because you had to watch what you say.  I like being able to ask questions, take things apart and get at the truth of the matter.  
I have my horses on as much terra firma as I can muster for them.  They run to me (Bit still trots) and meet me every morning.  Hawk has started ringing the wind chimes in the scotch pine to remind me it's feeding time.  My horses are happy.  We have a connection and they have accepted me as one of the herd.  This was via Parelli and a real desire to know horses.  Now?  Going to give Carolyn Resick a look, and try real hard to get to Buck Brennaman's clinics.  Ray Hunt liked him a lot.  From now on, I'll steer clear of horse folk dressed like Johnny Cash with boots that go past their knees.
4theloveofjake

That's the beauty of this forum ........ we can agree to disagree and that's OK around here isn't it ??

If rearing is beneficial to your relationship, please enjoy rearing to your hearts content. I don't need or want a rearing horse to know I have a relationship. The 1st time I went to 'catch' my new horses they ran around for 40 min., pinned back their ears and etc., didn't want anything to do with me. In less than two weeks they were running to me now and winnying upon my arrival. Now that is a relationship off on the right  IMHO. But that's just me  3some
Niek

Hm its not as much about proving the relationship, it builds it.

To use my horse as the example here. First time we did it was sort of an accident and not intentional.  But it was benificial for him ( i dont care if he rears or not) in several ways :

- creating somewhat of a concept of getting of the forehand and lifting the shoulders

- exhuberance, it gets him a bit snotty which considering he used to fall into extreme rbi mode in regular play thats a great thing. it gives him more confidence.

It is a fine balance though, if he stops backing and starts rearing it means we wont rear for a while till he backs.  generally i seem to find the balance easily now. In the end its all about him. I couldnt care less about the rearing, il admit its cool, but we have far more in our repetoir if i want to show of. Rearing is far more trivial (every joe blow can teach it)
cheerios

Niek wrote:
Rearing is far more trivial (every joe blow can teach it)



I think many people are oppose to teaching rearing because any joe blow can teach a horse to rear, but many do a poor job of it, and create a potentially dangerous horse. It's kind of like teaching a dog to bark on command (but a bit more dangerous!). A really good trainer can put the behavior on cue and ask for it when she wants it. A poor trainer just creates an annoying dog that barks all the time. A really good trainer also realizes that with some dogs, she shouldn't even bother teaching the behavior because it's going to be too hard to keep the behavior under control.

I see many people teaching rearing by pressuring the horse while holding him back, creating an anxious, stressed horse who has no where to go but up. The situation can go from slightly out of control to really out of control and horses and humans are liable to get hurt. You've also just taught the horse that when he's stressed, it's okay to rear.

Like Niek said, I think it can be done properly. And like training anything else, if done well, it can add to the horse/human relationship. Here's a calm horse learning to rear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rGm3Ip686Q

That said, I don't teach my horses to rear and don't intend to.
I don't want to encourage behaviors that I don't think I could completely control.
bit

some nice clicker training, and I liked how the horse mirrored her.  Pretty cool.  Nope, don't need to teach them to rear.  I spent long enough teaching Hawk not to rear.
TrickMule

Niek wrote:
Hm its not as much about proving the relationship, it builds it.

To use my horse as the example here. First time we did it was sort of an accident and not intentional.  But it was benificial for him ( i dont care if he rears or not) in several ways :

- creating somewhat of a concept of getting of the forehand and lifting the shoulders

- exhuberance, it gets him a bit snotty which considering he used to fall into extreme rbi mode in regular play thats a great thing. it gives him more confidence.

It is a fine balance though, if he stops backing and starts rearing it means we wont rear for a while till he backs.  generally i seem to find the balance easily now. In the end its all about him. I couldnt care less about the rearing, il admit its cool, but we have far more in our repetoir if i want to show of. Rearing is far more trivial (every joe blow can teach it)


I agree exactly. Here is a very early youtube of my mule rearing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRr8P9O7nE

I will only allow tight even fold of the front legs and no boxing.

It is to get a light and mobile forehand. She will also do it from zone 2/3 in-hand, in the bridle and a little bit under saddle too. I aim to make it more balanced. When she first learned, she would throw her neck back to lift herself off the ground and you can see this on the video. Now she will push herself off more from the hinds. I would do it differently now, as a progression from piaffe as opposed to accidental teaching which is how it occurred (from rapid sideways left/right transition and also a little bit as a side-effect from rapid backup). I use this concept also to half-jump her over things forwards and backwards (half-jump in front of pole/barrel, then jump backwards to be behind it again). I also do rear turns to do the rolling rock/rock slide backwards (i.e. standing in zone 1 draw the HQ towards until perpendicular, then draw zone 3 into sideways towards while walking backwards, then draw FQ towards by getting rear towards, now mule is facing again and then draw zone 1 forwards. Then balance this by driving backwards, then driving FQ to perpendicular, then drive sideways away, then drive HQ to face up in a smooth flow. Then repeat backwards rolling rock in other direction and balance it by doing it the normal way in the other direction. This is neat because you get to drive and draw every zone (bar 5) in every direction in a smooth flow.


Liz C, Bazkins and Pants the Mule
--
NCMtnGirl

Loved your videos of you and Pants Liz-!!  She's gorgeous!  I especially enjoyed, 'Load Up'.. that was GREAT!  Thanks for sharing!
PasoBaby_CarolU

It's very much like teaching your horse to shake his head, paw, or buck.   You are reinforcing "bad behavior" and you'd better know what you're doing and be very consistent about when you do it OR it will come back to haunt you.
cheerios

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
It's very much like teaching your horse to shake his head, paw, or buck.   You are reinforcing "bad behavior" and you'd better know what you're doing and be very consistent about when you do it OR it will come back to haunt you.



wait, do people actually go about purposefully teaching their horse to buck?  
whisperingwindfarms

I taught mine to bolt during trailer loading - Dan Thompson congratulated me on my fine horse training skills after my horse dragged him through the mud twice.

Oh wait . . . you said purposefully!  Never mind . . .
bit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHaEzGz0HeE&feature=related
TrickMule

cheerios wrote:
PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
It's very much like teaching your horse to shake his head, paw, or buck.   You are reinforcing "bad behavior" and you'd better know what you're doing and be very consistent about when you do it OR it will come back to haunt you.



wait, do people actually go about purposefully teaching their horse to buck?  


The airs above the ground could be viewed as rewarding bad behaviour. After all, the horse is encouraged to leap, stand up, kick, etc.

Sometimes you have to live it to learn it.

What I learned when I lived it is that you will get better form teaching the horse to lift his shoulders from piaffe than the way I did it. But to know this, and to connect more practically with the writings of Gueriniere, I had to feel it and live it - do my own "observe, remember and compare".

The behaviour is not causing problems for us. If I ask for it, it occurs. If I do not, it doesn't. Lifting the forehand is not her natural inclination. Neither is Spanish walk, for example - but she will do it if I ask her. Again, this is something which needs refinement and I learned a lot from doing it and again helped me to connect better with Fillis, Philippe Karl and others when I read their writings on the matter (and, in the joyous case of PK, when I see him teach it and ride it on his DVDs).

I have a gelding whose natural inclination is to strike during play with other horses. For him, lifting the foreleg and shoulder is something he is keen to do. So I reinforce it differently to minimise the risk of it becoming a problem (which it easily can for him). You feel this in your horses when you know their character, what they're apt to do, their inclinations, proclivities, predispositions and predilections.

Avoiding these manoeuvres would have left the learning of these matters in the abstract conceptualisation stage for me, rather than becoming solid concrete experiences that I could reflect on, learn from and grow by.

JMHO  


Liz C, Bazkins and Pants the Mule
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