| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Sidekick |
Parelli Interpretations...your take on this?I don’t write too much on forums, but when I do…..!I read a lot here and elsewhere from Parelli folks questioning whether the method has really helped their horsemanship in the long run. For example, some people feel they need to ‘undo’ some aspects and even feel the method has been so detrimental that they blame it for lameness, their horse's bad attitude, etc. I too have experienced doubts and re-assessing what it is I want out of the P-Method and out of my horsemanship journey in general. First thing I did was separate Parelli Corp, the Parelli’s (Pat & Linda) and the Method. Personally I am SO over the 1st two, however (!), I still believe the P-Method (philosophy, horsenalities and a refined skill level of teaching the 7 Games) is great as a foundation to build from. The following are my interpretations of the P-Method (started in 2003). I would like to hear others thoughts along these lines. Whether you agree, disagree –or~ have something to add of your own? The Horsenalities were meant as a: 1. guideline to take care of the ‘horse that shows up’….instead it’s become a stagnant label and less about improvising. 2. means to help you develop strategies to bring your horse more in the center and therefore, a more willing engaged partner….instead it’s become an excuse on why the horse and human are not improving. The 7 Games were meant for the human to start out with gross motor skills and learn how to go from SHOUTing at your horse to refining down to the subtleties of body language horses use with each other and for building confidence…..instead you continuously see a Level I skill level habitually being used on higher level horses instead of the progression a student should be moving forward with. Freestyle Riding was meant to strengthen riding skills and develop an independent seat. Strengthen horse/human responsibilities. Become a more balanced harmonious rider and not relying on reins for communication. ….instead it’s become a picture of sloppy, lazy riding and bracey horses. Groundwork/Liberty, well, what can I say….it starts out great, but then you are instilling in your horse incorrect movement (i.e. dropped shoulders, front to back movement). Would have been an excellent progression of P-Groundwork to develop into dressage In-Hand work to teach correct lateral flexion and how about some real cavaletti usage…..instead I guess they hope you don’t notice that they’ve really dropped the ball teaching biomechanics. It's not rocket science and IMO should be required learning for all methods/disciplines! Finesse Riding…..hmmmm, someone else want to fill in this one??? I’m at a loss here. Some good stuff is there, but still no attention (that I can see) on correct biomechanic development. For me, there just doesn’t seem to be any continuity with their teaching under this heading....a great disappointment to me. I guess I just need some validation that my original interpretations of the method are what others thought too.... I never drank any kool-aid or created a shrine in my home. Simply put, they inspired me to become a better horseman and I have learned a lot. So, I guess in that they succeeded, even if it means moving on. I just wished I didn't have to search out other teachers...all the Parellism lingo has become part of my language around horses and P-friends. It all becomes Russian when you get out in the larger horse world. |
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| karmikacres |
Go ride with Buck, you will quickly find all the shortcomings in the "method".
Those that label Buck as a bridle horse trainer are missing out on some of the best horsemanship available. Mike |
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| Spitfire |
Where is the LIKE button?! GAH! I'm becoming way too "Facebooked".
Like, twice. Both posts, A+ |
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| learningthedance |
Does Buck offer any learning material that is easy to follow and understand for those of us that just can't go see him or ride with him?? Where would be a good starting point in his program for anyone who might be interested in expanding and building on what they have already found? EDIT:
That pretty much sums things up for me, but not only did they inspire me, they gave me the tools to do it. I guess once you have the understanding and relationship in place, it's up to each individual where you want to go with it. That was the message I got from them all along though. A solid foundation on a deeper level. |
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| ElaineW |
I can't say I have had to undo, cause with the horse I have now I have not done much of that 'method'. I don't know what "horsenality' Levi is cause I just refuse to poke him in a " human label box".. When Levi showed up in the pasture, literally, I started using Bill Dorrances book for my training,, and Buck's ground work book/dvd.
I had no great success with parelli. It sure as heck did NOTHING for my riding. The greatest lesson for me has been to open my mind and learn from more than 1 PERSON.. Even though now I focus alot on Buck Brannaman's dvd's, ground work and riding. I don't have tunnel vision with it. I met Buck last year, he's A M A Z I N G... But you know what? I am sure there's OTHER horseman out there that's got something I can learn. What I see happening is some started hard core diehard parelli.. would slam those that didn't do parelli etc.. Now they have traded Parelli for Buck..and now they bash parelli. What will happen when they find someone better than Buck? hmmm??? Well they will bash him too.. some humans just have a need to focus on 1 thing it seems. Till the next 'new' thing comes down the road.. Bill Dorrance's "True Horsemanship Through Feel", Leslie Desmond's dvd's, Mark Rashid's books, dvd's , Buck Brannaman's dvd's, books and auditing clinics , watched some Chris Cox even, this is what i have been up to. A human can learn alot about themselves from a horse. But what you should learn first and formost is how to be a better human FOR the horse... I have read alot of Eckhart Tolle's works, Cesar Millan (spelling) yes i know he's a dog trainer.. but he's VERY in the moment and teaches that.. Mark Rashid's books are FANTASTIC ,, I can't brag on his stuff enough either!! He talks alot about the power of focus, finding the try.. well I could go on and on. What have I kept from parelli? The Friendly Game. That's it. in a nutshell. What EVER method you use,, at least learn about FEEL.. Learn it and apply it to ANY METHOD YOU WANT... get that good soft feel.. it's priceless. Pat actually TRIED to teach us FEEL with the 'phases'.. I truly think the human can do any method they want if they as least learn some softness... AS for the horse that shows up.. well it's pretty interesting that it depends on ME what horse shows up that day.. If I am nervous, scared , worried, sad, afraid, etc.. well that's what my horse will be.. You work on YOU and it'll work out.. I 'never' have to 'deal' with the horse that shows up... I have became dependable on the INSIDE.. so he's dependable.. I have not had Levi a year yet and we are doing good together.. before he would not lead the group, could not go out alone, herd sour, etc etc.. but with these fine trainers materials and TIME.. lots of ticktocks.. I have a horse that WILL lead the group, I can ride alone, he can trust me. i can trust him.. We are a team,, but parelli could not get me there.. |
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| whisperingwindfarms |
Buck's trailering DVD unlocked a 5 year mystery for me that PNH couldn't solve so I'm partial to anything he does and will go see him anytime I can.
That said, my horsemanship didn't really take off until I started taking lessons with a local trainer who learned from Lynn Palm, Richard Shrake and Bob Avila (go figure - names that are rarely mentioned here). I add this because it's possible to find people who mesh with the method but not with the name. Beth has helped us immensely and she continues to do so on a weekly basis. I can talk with her for 5 minutes and get a golden key to a problem. When she gives me the key, I am almost always smacking myself in the head and saying, "DUH!!!!". (I'm slow but I'm a lot of fun!) I wish I could tell you how to find your local Beth. I can't. I do believe that there are thousands of Local Beths around to be found. I don't discount my foundation through 1/2 of L3 in PNH. I also don't discount that in the long run, it held me back. These days I do my best to look ahead - not back. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I would say that everyONE of your "Insteads" are totally individual student dependent. It reminds me of a saying, "When you are 18 you can blame your problems on your parents. But when you are 21 and you still have those same problems, you have no one to blame but yourself."
I say this because I've never gotten "stuck" nor have any of my friends that I ride with regularly - all who did Parelli together. A lot of people graduate from High School and figure that's all they have to learn, ever...and so are stuck. Same with a B.S. in college. Other people are forever students, realizing that there is always more to learn. I agree with your first paragraph. I don't get hung up in Parelli, Inc. or what is going on with Pat and Linda, but still maintain that you won't find a better step-by-step horsemanship program anywhere. Does that mean PNH is ALL there is to learn? No...there's always more to learn. Does that mean everything they taught was perfect? Do you know ANYONE who is perfect? The Horsenalities were ALWAYS taught to be tool...they were ALWAYS taught to be fluid, that you "train the horse that shows up." I have never seen a "Higher Level Horse" stuck at Level 1. How in the world do they get to be "higher level" at Level 1? That makes no sense at all. I will say there are PEOPLE who DRILL horses at Level 1. There are also people who DRILL dressage, gait, sliding stops, turns...on and on. These are people problems not program problems. The same is true for Freestyle or Finesse. It is a GROWING program. You are supposed to Progress THROUGH the program and get better, refine, improve...if the PERSON gets stuck, it's again a PERSON problem. There is no "STUCK PLACE" in the program! I would like to know who defines "correct" or "incorrect", "brace" all of your descriptive terms there. There are probably as many different "correct" definitions of "correct collection" as there are horse breeds, shows, events, and competitions that use the term. Remember that any statement is just ONE person's opinion. I like to consider the source of criticism and decide if they are really objective or if they have an agenda of their own. I don't believe there is a horse performance anywhere by anybody that SOMEBODY can't find fault with. Seriously. If you are comparing Finesse to Grand Prix dressage, you probably have a point in 'more correct'...but if you compared Finesse to "no program at all," your typical backyard pleasure rider, then I think you see a big difference. PNH isn't meant for Grand Prix dressage, it's meant to train backyard owners. You know several of PK's students started out with Parelli. They are growing on, learning new ways to ride and train, building on what they learned before. Just because there is new learning on top of old learning doesn't make the old learning "wrong." |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
BTW - if what you are asking is "IS it OK to outgrown Parelli?" then the answer would be YES...I think everyone who learns and progresses does. All of the good students do, Pat and Linda do. That doesn't mean you HAVE TO throw the baby out because the bath water got cold. You just move on. I think everyone here moves on...in all directions. That's why the study of "horsemanship" is so fun and interesting. There is always more to learn. | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I was thinking more on your comments and even Freestyle is taught to be exactly what you describe...good for an independent seat, teach leg, weight, and focus. If people are sloppy, lazy, and put brace in their horses, whose fault is it?
Giacomini talks about horses ridden western (or freestyle) getting bracey because of the 'threat' of a huge bit. Now, Parelli doesn't teach you to go to a huge bit, but other people do. I don't understand the part about biomechanics not being in the program. I remember it in the Old Levels, I learned more in the Linda levels, I think they've included even more in the newest levels. There is a lot in Karen Rohlf's program. You sometimes it's not that something isn't there, it's just that we don't SEE it there because it isn't spelled out as such. |
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| Sidekick |
I see my comments were grossly misinterpreted and I deeply apologize for not writing a clearer picture of my thoughts. I am first to admit I am not good at forums and should stick with personal conversations!
Alas, should I make another stab on this forum, I will keep it shorter and more clear. Thanks for all your time. Onward! |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Well, you did put a lot of thoughts in one post and ask for other's "take" on it. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were asking. Yes, asking perhaps a single thing at time might be a good idea. | ||||
| Julie |
I see parelli as what IMO it was, a 6 week course to get you in tune with your horse - able to balance, load, ride, handle your horse without pulling its mouth. That was level 1. Level 2 was refining it a bit if anyone wanted more. level 3 was to learn to teach. After any level you move on to your required discipline with a basic grounding.
I would take the old level 1, then add different teachers for different subjects. You can only teach what you can do, and IMo other people can do finesse far better than the parellis, we just wanted more! |
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| karmikacres |
For the record, I agree 100% with everything in you original post.
One of the big holes in Parelli is to dumb the horse down to our level instead of forcing us to rise to theirs. Yes, they have bio-mechanical issues. For the record, I have had serious breakthroughs at every non Parelli clinic I have ridden in over the last year. Things I really wish I had been taught correctly years ago... Mike |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
But Mike, that is your experience. It isn't everyone's. THAT was my point. I see many successful students, I see some not-so-successful students.
But, I see a lot more who never even tried. You want to go on with your Horsemanship, as do most here. But how many horse owners do that? And wouldn't the world of horses be a lot better if everyone got at least through the old Level 2? |
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| learningthedance |
I wonder how much Parelli contributed directly/indirectly to your more recent successes. I remember watching your Parelli video's you used to post of your assessments. The relationship was solid. The communication you shared with your horse was beautiful. I am just wondering if you never found Parelli, would you be getting as much out of these clinics your now attending? How is Buck for teaching about building a relationship?? Or does he??? |
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| karmikacres |
Yes, but the old L2 is so far from the current reality of Parelli, it might as well be a fairy tale. They would also need to revamp their flexions and collection to reflect what actually allows the horse to use its body. Yes, this is my experience, and as a former 11 year student of Parelli, some might find value in it. Mike |
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| karmikacres |
The reality is, we spent a lot of time not progressing due to the constant changes in the program. That is our fault for believing things would change, and new material was forthcoming. Yes, the basic horsemanship skills are invaluable, and IMO, should be the focus of PNH. No, if we had not found Parelli, we probably would not have any horses. I found it at a time in my life that horses allowed me to rejoin society, it was life saving for me. A great deal of the credit needs to go to deceased Parelli Professional John Harms, he was an inspiration to many. Thanks for the kind words about my videos, they still mean a lot to me. I wish I could put into words the change in my relationships that have occurred. I think I just feel better to them, they sure feel better to me. Buck has a phenomenal relationship with his horses, it is just totally different than Parelli. His horses know exactly what is expected of them and they get it done right now. He clearly loves and respects his horses, but they are not pets. Don't get me wrong, I still see value in what PNH could offer as a basic horsemanship program. Under promise, over deliver. Mike |
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| learningthedance |
Your videos really touched me (as did a few others), but I think it was the amount of pride that went along with them that made them stand out to me. It wasn't so much a..."look what I can do", but a ..."look at what we have learned together" that I felt from them. Sometimes I feel like maybe you have forgotten how magical and special THAT part of the journey was for you. How magical and special it still is for others.
No matter who you follow now, I am more then certain you will reach the stars. You have a wonderful relationship with your horses (from the few videos you have shared) and a passion to keep learning and advancing. Thanks for the explanation Mike, and your welcome for the kind words. They are well deserved. P.S. Feel free to post any of those video's again.  They are STILL very inspirational. Even if you have graduated and moved on, they still speak volumes 
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| merle |
I agree 110%. Just to be clear, agreeing with the above is not slamming Parelli. Agreeing with the above is because my experience with Buck has illustrated the aspects of Parelli that are lacking. Parelli is good, but Buck is phenomenal. I used pure Parelli with a number of horses, in general all of those horses had been wonderful. I was very very satisfied with the results I was getting. For example, through Parelli I was able to develop my mare to ride bareback/bridleless and pass the old level 3 bb/bridleless assessment. I was beyond satisfied with Parelli, I had issues with the corp. but the method was great. Then comes along my mule. She was doing well with Parelli, but not great. I wanted great, Parelli did not have the information to get me to great because of the shortcomings to the method. I read, searched, looked around and ended up going to Buck. Buck had the information, the important pieces that are not addressed or just given lip service to via Parelli. My mule is now becoming GREAT due to Buck. As such, I see shortcomings in Parelli but only because of my mule. If I did not have my mule I never would have had the desire or need to go outside Parelli. But, my mule insisted that I search for other answers. If you do not see shortcomings in Parelli, then that is wonderful as it means it is working for you. And isn't that the most important thing, to find some thing that works for you and your horse? |
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| Hertha |
Sidekick, I really enjoyed your original post and agree with pretty much all of it.
I also take PasoCarol's point that if we ride freestyle sloppy, the horse will become sloppy. In terms of finesse, I agree with you. I have not seen what I personally would call finesse from Parelli. The most recent stuff makes me squirm. I am learning finesse on the ground and in the saddle studying Alex Kurland. I don't have a WEEKLY BETH down here. So I experiment and have fun and learn and have fun. My horse has built up self-carriage online and at liberty following Carolyn Resnick and Alex Kurland's ideas, and we are starting to get it riding (no bit required). The riding progress is slower because of my ineptitude with finesse riding, not the horse's. But I'm working on myself with real enjoyment of the process. I guess in the end we all have to set our own goals and then troll the universe to find what makes sense to us and agrees with our philosophy of being with horses. All that said, I would not be able to be so discerning without the years of intensive study of Parelli when it was at its best. |
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| plodalong |
i came into horses very late in life,i wasnt fortunate as a child to ever have one, I got a horse i thought was older than he turned out to be, I was ready to sell him after 6 months, he reared,bucked, dragged me around and i was getting hurt, Yes i know all my fault, I listened to others on this traditional yard, get a bigger bit, shut his mouth with a flash, i took notice and i was still getting hurt, i had problems lifting his feet off the floor, A friend of mine gave me a parelli dvd that fell out of a magazine, i watched and longed to have some kind of relationship with my horse, Well now 3 yrs later i have, i have learned some skills from books and dvd's. im not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i am fast approaching 60 yrs old, but i had a dream and now thanks to parelli i live that dream, we trail ride, he will load ,he has no bit,no shoes,i will never do dressage or show jumping but Parelli for us was amazing.it has allowed this old woman to have a beautiful relationship with my horse, it has enabled me to learn a new language, it has enabled me to communicate my wishes and respect my horse's dignity. his horsenality is an lbi, and knowing this has helped me to understand him better. we are now heading for our level 3 green string. we worked and progressed,Thats what Pat parelli teaches us to be progressive ,foundation before specialisation.Love Language and leadership.I am still the only rope wiggler on our yard and swimming against the tide hasnt always been easy, Parelli packaged my learning in such a way i could understand, i cant always afford lessons ,but when i can i learn a lot and i then have enough to do until i can afford another.when students reach the higher levels of Parelli then it is time for them to move on and specialise if they wish.Parelli gave me horsemanship skills from simple manners to freestyle riding.I now live my dream in a quiet contented way.My horse and i dance together in the middle of the field with other horses all around, my horse chooses to come and hang out with me,that for me is such a wonderful feeling.I am not afraid to say that "WE ARE PARELLI" i am proud of our coloured savvy strings. | ||||
| Mandy'sMarty |
A very eloquently expressed journey. I salute you, and your horse, as you continue your adventure and live your dream together. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I agree with Marty Plodalong. You know there are people who have had horses for decades who haven't achieved with their horses what you have. Sounds beautiful. Congratulations. | ||||
| Saddlebag |
Please google "Erin's Carolyn Resnick"s Notes. Then read thro the menu on the left hand side. I have a horse that's been "Parelli'd" to death. Yes, he is compliant yet the trust wasn't there. He had a ghastly fear of people, men in particular. This goes back to when he was freeze branded as a colt. It is not painless. Tests have shown increased cortisol levels for over an hour. OK , now you have a better grasp of what I'm dealing with. I had run out of ideas to build trust. I'm not afraid of horses and never get upset with them. I started doing as Erin had written. My horse has responded like I'd never hoped. We say hello 4 or 5 times a day. Anything I do with him is in the pasture and he can leave at any time. He has quit being so jumpy. Now I always ask permission. If I don't get it, well that's ok because I may get it the next time. Am I thrilled with our progress? You bet. | ||||
| bit |
Parelli got me on the road to better, and made for a good foundation to nh. Carolyn Resnick was the one that really put it all together for me regarding a relationship, bond and trust. Because of her, I have a better understanding of horse behavior and psycology. Centered riding has been my best path for riding. I have an amazing instructor right there, working with human and horse and helping us both on our path. Eclipse visibly relaxes when we arrive at our lessons. Even chicken little Gunner likes it there. I think we all have to find our own way. I'll be working with Kip with I pick up the boys, and get a good dose of "Brannaman" from him. Brent Graef in July. It's all good. Some ways simply work better for me, just because of what I'm interested in, and how I learn. We all have a different path, but they all lead to the same place. |