Photos of great engagement thread!

appellativo · Photos of great engagement thread!

Do we have a thread of what a horse working in a proper frame looks like? I am trying to get a good eye so whoever wants to contribute please do! I will start. Also with your pic, if you feel qualified, can you say why you think that it looks correct? This is Uta Graf with Le Noir.

The distance of stride of front legs is similar to the back legs. The reins are not overly tight as far as I can tell, and the head hangs nicely vertical. It appears as though the base of the neck is up, and the horse is using his hindquarters. In the pic it appears as though his tail is relaxed.

Critiques of my assessment are welcome!

Blue Flame

I would say that the head is behind the vertical.

Base of the neck can be extremely hard to judge in some breeds with a tendency to have such muscled necks.

Similarly difficult to judge with cresty horses is whether poll is highest point or if broken at the third vertebrae.

Also something is off comparing the angle of the front forearm that is in the air with the hind cannon (the ones in the air) - I think ideally that they are supposed to stay parallel.

If the horse has even and synchronised footfalls, it begs the question . . . why the need for bellboots on the front? This suggests to me that the person who tacks the horse up is concerned about over-reach or inteference wounds. It is hard to tell from just a still pic, but it looks to me as though the hind foot might leave the ground before the front foot - a late breakover - as the hind foot looks less loaded judging by the angle of the pastern (although the bell boot obscures the front pastern). Such a situation would indeed make the horse prone to over-reach or interference.

appellativo

See I knew you'd see somethings I didn't see! This is supposed to be a photo of the horse in passage. I don't know if that makes a difference. Now I do see the things you pointed out.

You got any really good pics to share?

Oh here's some more. This one of Le Noir looks a little better. And what about the red horse?

Julie

Would like to see both reaching forward out of their shouldersmore

Blue Flame

It would be nice if you could say what movement is being performed in each pic as it does affect how things will look.

appellativo

the photos were not labeled, but pic 2 looks like piaffe and the third one with the 'red' horse looks like working trot but I'm not 100%.

Blue Flame

Again with the over-reach boots - hmmmnnn . . . . . could this indicate a footfall timing issue or maybe a "cramming the horse together" issue?

The piaffe - either the horse isn't there yet strength-wise in the HQ, or there is a balnce issue with still too much weight over the forehand. I like to picture the piaffe as being on the verge of levade. Could that horse stand on his HQ from that balance? When the base narrows, shouldn't the hind feet come more forward rather than the front feet moving backwards?

The build of the red horse makes the neck a bit more revealing. Does that neck look telescoped/lifted at the base? How about the look of the poll versus the 3rd vertebrae? Is the overall picture one of relaxation or of tension?

Also interesting is to study the throat latch area. The two things that open or close this area are how far the nose is tucked and whether the neck is telescoped.

It would be interesting to see some video - quite often see a horse with one foot on the ground at the trot when studying frame by frame. That can reveal where the weight really is.

appellativo

OK! So, someone find me some GOOD pictures! :D Because I clearly have much work to do with my eyeballs LOL

misstux

[quote="Blue Flame:76049"]Again with the over-reach boots - hmmmnnn . . . . . could this indicate a footfall timing issue or maybe a "cramming the horse together" issue?quote]

It probably indicates that they boot just in case. That is the way with most of the dressage people I know and there are a lot at the barn where Strider lives.

Jack

I don't know if it's proper form, but this short vid that Rik shared with me has always been one I enjoy watching. Seem's to me that the rider is offering a nice softness in the reins and the horses face is mostly in front of the vertical. Balanced on all four and nicely rounded IMO. I really like it but don't know if it's proper or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W1xRjUHzGw

Jack

Clarissa

Have a look at anything from Nuno Oliveira.
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?...615322255860&q=nuno+oliveira#
OR Sue Oliveira.
http://sueoliveira.blogspot.com/
Sue’s blog is in Belgium or French(I think!) but I don’t have trouble navigating around it. Go to the Album photos http://sueoliveira.blogspot.com/2...photos-salon-du-cheval-paris.html & just keep clicking the top photo link on the right & 100’s of photos will scroll through. Most are Sue’s students in various stages of education but you will see lots of good stuff.

The final post in that blog is about Sue’s funeral 16Sep2007 with a photo at the cemetery.

OR Philippe Karl. In this short video you get a really great still at the beginning as the video loads.
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?...iveira#docid=-3630150063986391480

Rik(The Sequel)

You will need to be more specific about what you want to see, it will look different dependant on the confirmation of the horse and the effect the rider is looking for, as they dictate the frame (If you want to call it that) and different people/disciplines have different opinions on what is correct or required.

If you are taking about FEI Dressage horses, none of the horses so far are examples of what a world class FEI Dressage horse looks like.

(Silver medallist at the recent WEG)

And top eventing horse in the Dressage phase.

As you can see two world class horses performing Dressage but look very different.

If you want Classical you have more difficulty as the horses have changed physically and mentally through the centuries so we can only really look at horses since the invention of photography.

It all depends on what discipline you’re interested in and the level within that discipline.

AlythLong

I appreciate your posts Rik - love the photos of the different kinds of top dressage -= but your flashing pic at the bottom drives me nuts!!! Perhaps my eyes aren't as good as they were 60 + years ago!!! I simply cannot read your posts unless the picture is out of sight!! Happy Christmas. Alyth

Rik(The Sequel)

Better?

Merry Christmas

Niek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgU5fxcmQno

AlythLong

Thank you - I appreciate that!! Alyth

Rik(The Sequel)

Niek perhaps you could explain why this clip is in your opinion and why it needs no qualification?

Niek

meh i know it was easy to just post the clip and let others go on

,

While short some things stand out for me.

- Relaxation in the body , the horse is supple in movement.

- nice rythem and cadence

- extremely nice contact

- the horse has a nice outline.

- open poll.

I also feel it shows engagement, not collection perse. but the horse is there and looks ready to go into a collected frame.

I do think the Picture of Laura is quite good to. I agree with the fact that engagement will look different per horse, per dicipline, per school.
Whats good and whats better is something i will leave up to debate

.

But the clip is something i am looking for

Niek

Offcourse now iam interested what you think Rik

Rik(The Sequel)

Sorry didn’t see this, do you mean of the clip or what I like/dream of?

Niek

how bout both ?

Rik(The Sequel)

On the whole I wouldn’t disagree with your view to much, for me extra weight is dropped on the front end in the 7 – 12 secs section which I can’t see the point of myself without any accompanying information to explain why they are doing it.

Contact I wouldn’t say was extremely nice, it’s pretty inconsistent most of the time but imo that’s due to being just a fraction too light. Interesting that the piaffe is where the contact looks like some of the firmest which is where you would expect it to be lightest.

What I dream of is pretty difficult to show, It’s a mix of these three people, each for a different reason…

Practical application of the Haute Ecole in the real world, the allegedly best horseman in England at the time, studied all over Europe at the highest level including Baucher, spent his whole life (Died early) in the academic study of horsemanship and it’s application within Cavalry.

I might add without him there would be no McClellan saddle and the saddles it influenced.

His skill and knowledge in training Dressage horse’s etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfZxO1K7zbI

His philosophy, attitude, spirit, heart etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3RDeZ5tBfk

Sadly I’m no where near this dream or am ever likely to be, my main horse has a weakness in the hind which limits how much weight you can get of the front end if you don't want to damage the horse……so reality is to just spend the rest of our lives together with that time as pleasant as possible.