| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| fjordnaturally |
Pressure and Release vs Positive ReinforcementThere are those out there (namely NHE, or AND) who have the idea that one should never use pressure and release, and only use positive reinforcement when training a horse. If the horse does not do something or does not want to do something, they move on.I just want to know what everyone thinks of this. (There may be another topic on this, I'm not sure). To me this does not reflect what horses do in the wild, as I do see the phases being shown in everyday horse behavior. I'm interested to see everyone's view on this. |
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| gaitinalong |
While I do subscribe to that philosophy at certain times, it just depends what we're doing. I can't find the Thumbs DOWN emoticon, so this will have to do; it's what I think of that mindset for all phases of training. I'll bet they don't spank their kids or correct their dogs when they don't listen either 
I am not new to training horses. I got my start back in the early 60's, at age 12, training my granddad's Welsh/Morgan crosses to ride and drive. He was an "NH" trainer lonnnnng before anyone made that phrase up and realized there was money to be made off of it. Point-being, while no credentialed professional, I have paid my dues and have room to talk 
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| CoolsLadyInRed |
Re: Pressure and Release vs Positive Reinforcement
I am not good with abbreviations. ?NHE and AND? Sorry. 
In the wild horses use pressure all the time, besides just body language. If the pressure isn't working they go to something stronger ie biting. If you don't use pressure and release as the reward I don't know how else you would ask a horse. Do you wait til they do something that you want them to? I guess that statement is confusing to me. If you were asking or telling a horse to get out of your space and he was dangerously on top of you...how would you tell him to move away? There has to be some pressure even if it is waving your arms to tell him to move. Pressure doesn't even have to be touching the horse such as a mustang. To just look at him or away from him ,that is pressure and release. Maybe I am not understanding how these folks ask for things. Someone can help me out here 
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| bit |
I don't just use positive reinforcement, I don't just use presure and release. I don't just use Parelli, or Buck, or Brent or Carolyn Resnick. Depends on the horse, the circumstances and a lot of other things. Getting that tool belt full of tools makes you better prepared for what ever comes up. There is no one way of doing things, or the best way. What works today, might not work tomorrow, and that's on the same horse.
If Eclipse gets worried, a barrel pattern works pretty good for her. My old horse, Bunny liked falling leaf when she lost her mind. Bitty, she's a one rein disengage girl. RRD immediatly calms her and she comes right back to me. Getting to know your horses well, and trying a lot of different things seems to be what works for this human. The cool thing is, what there is to know is limitless when it comes to horses. Knowing, is just a temporary thing. You think you know, like Bitty liking rrd, but then you learn a little more and something else may come up that she REALLY likes, and it's so subtle you can't even see it happening. Always and never don't work with horses, unles you are talking "always love, and never be cruel". "Always" and "Never" can be very limiting. |
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| CoolsLadyInRed |
Maybe I was looking too deep?Deb, aren't all the types of things you mentioned types of pressure and release? Falling leaf, barrel pattern,etc. How do you not use any "pressure"? To send the horse into a pattern or use the bit to move the horse's head to the side are all forms of pressure and release. I might be getting too basic but I am not sure if there is any movement or activity that doesn't have P&R...except maybe sitting still by the horse.
If the horse doesn't want to do something we encourage them to find the answer, right? We don't totally ignore that and go to something else. The horse won't find the answer if we only use positive reinforcement, will he? Maybe somebody can give me some examples of one or the other. Thanks. |
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| fjordnaturally |
NHE stands for Nevzorov Haute Ecole. AND stands for Art of Natural Dressage. AND states that they only use a phase 1 and then if the horse does not respond move on to something else. And if the horse doesn't want to do something, you're supposed to just back off.
If I did this one hundred percent, my LBE/RBE/LBI pony would walk all over me. She's prone to tantrums and defiance and I need assertive leadership at some points. It doesn't mean I use force, I just let her understand that responding instead of fighting is easier and happier for both of us. I should also clarify by pressure and release I mean, for example, the Parelli way...press your fingers, increasingly harder, and then when the horse responds you move away. Maybe you'd rub the horse as well, which is a positive thing, and for some horsenalities use "bonuses" aka treats. AND states that, "The soul difference between AND and every other training system (as far as we know) is that within AND we start from and work only with the horses' initiative." I believe in working with the horse so that the horse is a willing partner and wants to be with you. But certain things I believe must be taught before the horse begins to really enjoy them. They must understand first. I don't really understand how you can achieve the understanding without any pressure and release! AND states, "lmost every NH method is based on the horse learning through avoiding pressure and/or corrections. We want the horse to learn because he wants to earn praise and rewards from us, and we don't want to place any pressure on him to learn. If you compare AND to the Parelli teaching system with its four fases of pressure, AND only goes to level 2: touching the skin as most impressing aid. If the horse doesn't respond to that, we won't push harder or faster, but try the same on a different part of the body and if that doesn't work, see that as a signal to do other exercises first in order to prepare the horse better to our request. The horse has a right to not want to learn from us; that's valuable feedback on our own behavior and tells us what to change in ourselves." Also, "This of course is a generalisation of all the NH methods piled together. Most NH people get angry when you write that their horses are taught to avoid pressure and that that's a negative learning system, but that's simply the truth. But it works, and for a lot of people it produces the responses they're looking for, so there's nothing wrong with that. Also most NH methods (even Parelli with his fases of pressure) are if somewhat negative, also quite fair on the horse. Even though fase four is hitting / pushing the horse to the bone, he had three fases before to start to listen. " Just because you use pressure and release I don't see it as a punishment or a negative thing. I think we use pressure and release on our employees, children, etc everyday. Isn't that part of being a leader? |
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| fjordnaturally |
Oh yes, there is more here: http://www.artofnaturaldressage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=68 if you are interested. NHE (Nevzorov) provides the same ideas but with more cultish/extreme ideas, I steer clear of there. | ||||
| ErinR76 |
Head on over to the Friendship Training Thread that I started. It is similar in some ways to A.N.D.'s thoughts...it is based on the fact that there are horse relationships where two horses pair bond with each other and this relationship does not follow the typical herd-type pressure and release interactions. I'm real curious about FT but I don't have the proper setup to start it (see the thread) and nor do I have the one-time lifetime entry/coaching fee. Oh well. I highly agree with Bit's post above, that its best not to limit yourself to one format, but to pick and choose from lots of formats what works best for you. At a given point in time, it MIGHT BE just one format, so you can learn it and all it has to offer you. Then, maybe you move on. Its all highly individual. And it just depends on JUST HOW MUCH freedom you want and are capable of offering the horse. | ||||
| bit |
Honestly, if my horses say no to riding, we do something else. I have three riding horses, so one of them is always up for a ride, and usually all four are trying to push each other off the pedestal if we play with obsticals. I always ask, and "the plan" usually goes flying out the window. I figure, this is supposed to be fun, and if my horse and I aren't enjoying ourselves? Well, I make sure we are. My horse's opinion is important to me. Hawkie and Shaun are bubble pushers, so I do keep my bubble safe with them. I will also follow up moving that zone one with some driving from behind. I might even take territory later, but the laughter never leaves my eyes or heart. Now Bt? She'll back right into me. It's big for her and sorta new. She is asking for a scritch and rub. Maybe she has a tick or a cock a bur in her tail. To drive her away would not be a good thing for our relationship. It took her a long time to trust me enough to do this. Hawkie? He loves his scritches and it's not personal when he swings his head around to point to a place I missied. Eclpse is just now accepting mutual grooming.
So if your horse pushes a bit on that bubble, stop long enough to consider what he's asking. If it's just the horse being pushy, you can calmly move them. Or maybe they are asking to mutual groom. That's a complement. You gonna phase 4 a horse for that? What a shame to miss that opportunity to be invited to interact. So yes, my horse says no, I do something else. They are willing souls, and their "no" is a rare thing. They are full of try. To honor their opinion? Just gives me even more try. Because I listened, and we did this thing called horsemanship, together. |
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| CoolsLadyInRed |
If AND were literally correct all horses would be running wild and free. IMO. Parelli has said horses aren't praise seeking creatures. Now a dog is, people are, horses are not. If I asked my horse if she wanted to do anything she would rather stand there and eat. I love my horse and want her to have what a horse needs in life. But we are partners and we ride. There is quality down time but she spends most of 24/7 eating and sleeping and being a horse. There are a few rules, so to speak, but they are for our safety.
If I didn't direct my horse she wouldn't leave the paddock. It takes very little to move her out but that isn't a choice. I am the leader. We ride. I think there are too many choices with AND but that is me. If we were in the 1800's and my horse was my transportation ,there was no, " Do you feel like doing this?"The horse was ridden and did his job. The rest of the time is eating,etc. I am rambling. Sorry. |
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| fjordnaturally |
I agree with both of you. There is a place for doing something else if your horse is having an off day or really doesn't want to focus on riding, but I think that AND has gone too far. They seem like nice enough people on that forum, but I think that there with a horse, you need LEADERSHIP. You consider the horses ideas, of course, and don't force him into things he doesn't want to do, but you don't let him control the session on whatever he wants to do. That, to me, means HE is in control and HE is being the leader. Both of you have very interesting views! I completely agree.
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| bit |
I initiate the dance, but I always dance to the music we both like. Sometimes we don't dance. Sometimes we just enjoy the music.
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| ztmag |
I guess it depends if you want to interact with your horse like another horse or treat it like a dog. My horse likes praise and rewards, but she turns into the cookie monster from hell if I give her treats. She responds very nicely if I treat her like a horse. You could reduce this argument to almost ridiculous lengths. Any time you try to teach a horse something, you are putting pressure on it even if you are saying "please follow the cookie." CoolsLady is right--the only way to not put any pressure on a horse is to let it go free. There is also a huge difference between reading the horse and understanding how it is feeling e.g. having an off day, maybe I won't ride. Vs. letting the horse do any darned thing it pleases because "it doesn't want to do that." It is the same thing as using horsenality as an excuse for why your horse doesn't do something. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
In my experience, my mare as well as my Lab respond to praise. I don't treat my mare like a dog, nor do I treat my Lab like a horse. They both love treats...and will readily perform for a treat. I have established clear boundaries for my mare regarding treats and she respects those boundaries. However, it requires constant, consistent assertion of those boundaries. Just as asserting one's leadership requires.
I rarely dictate and impose my wishes on my mare without regard for her opinion. We have a 51/49 partnership. I have learned to patiently out-persist her and/or to redirect her energy so that her ideas blend with mine. The more time I spend with her doing what we both enjoy, the more her thoughts match mine...so that I often do not have to say a word or move a muscle to cue her. The true test is when I interact with her at liberty. That's when I know she chooses to be with me...because she is free to walk away. Carolyn Resnick's Method is a powerful program for building such a relationship with your horse. |
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| CoolsLadyInRed |
Yes, that is what I was trying to say Thank you for putting it into the right words:)
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| Hertha |
It's the old 'word' thing again. Pressure can be so many different things.
I use clicker training. My arrival in the horses' home alone is pressure of a kind, because they immediately want to know if we are playing a game, and if so, which one??? The cue for what I'd like them to do for a click and treat is pressure. My 'intent' is enough pressure for them to do many things, or a light physical gesture, maybe a light touch. To teach cues for new things (which establishes the mutual language between us), I may need to use a bit more pressure at first, but as soon as they understand what it is that earns the click and treat, they begin to own the new communication and very little pressure is needed. So teaching with positive reinforcement, especially using the click/treat dynamic so the horse quickly learns EXACTLY what will earn the treat, is not an either/or situation in terms of pressure vs positive reinforcement. The difference may be more about 'communicative pressure' or 'painful punitive pressure'. Any horse without a broken spirit will test the edges of any relationship. Just MHO of course.  
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