Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.),          It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Biomechanics and Purity of Gait Jeanette Relaxation of the jaw After Hertha mentioned Leslie Pavlich to me I went looking for video clips. I found this one which I rather liked showing a method for teaching lateral flexion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUNxUAT2etY It was really relevant to a lesson I had today where the icelandic horse I was riding set his jaw against me on the left rein and everything that had previously been easy..like really basic circles at walk suddenly became exercise all by themselves..and collecting the trot before the  canter transitions became a nightmare and he started bucking and speeding up alarmingly So I've added this one to my list to do with  my youngster! (Alex Kurland does cover this in other ways but I love having a series of ideas that tackle the same thing as a way of proofing what I'm trying to teach) Interested to hear what others think of the clip... Alex Kurland talks about keeping the flexion within the 10/11 o'clock zone and I wondered if the video clip show more than that? Incidentally I tried a little experiment on myself and tried turning my neck with and without my  back teeth together gritted together...the difference is huge...I could feel the tension all down my spine. Quite an eye opener! Julie Thats a carrot stretch! Jeanette hmm. That's what I wondered...although still fun to do. The Alex Kurland exercise is  to ask for three little give of the jaws one after the other and then ask for the hip. AlythLong OK  Here's a question.  You are riding - how can you tell if the jaw is relaxed or not?  Alyth Jeanette AlythLong wrote: OK  Here's a question.  You are riding - how can you tell if the jaw is relaxed or not?  Alyth ...the horse doesn't bend!! Seriously ...I'm not really sure, but I'm working on the basis that a truly relaxed jaw means that if you ask for a little give on one rein the horse will bend his head/neck in the direction you asked without turning onto that rein. I've also heard  that a wet mouth is supposed to be a sign of a relaxed jaw because it indicates that the horse is moving his jaw/swallowing/chewing. I tried the exercise on the video clip this morning ( a quick go before work!). I didn't need to bother with the target stick and I just asked for a slight turn of the head from the 12 o'clock to 11o'clock. Initially I got the feet moving, then I got feet still but head turning at the wrong angle (chin coming up)  but as I made my request very soft and slightly changed the position of the rein I just got the head turn at the correct angle. I think if you keep going you would eventually be able to selectively click and treat for a slight head turn accompanied by a lift at the wither . ...so maybe more possibilities than just a carrot stretch Julie afterall? Niek AlythLong wrote: OK  Here's a question.  You are riding - how can you tell if the jaw is relaxed or not?  Alyth A relaxed jaw moves. In dressage you see  people trying to replicate the feeling by "squeezing"   in the rein.  Its hard to describe the difference. But you feel the difference immediately. Pulling and heavyness versus soft and holding  (even on a horse that is above the bit/shy from the bit) Square vs round. The list goes on and on but in the end you just have to feel the difference to understand it Leah Locked vs mobile? When you have contact with a locked jaw, there is  tightness, a pull to the rein...you will also feel locked through the whole neck. When the horse lets his jaw loose, you feel a 'letting loose' in the contact where it feels like 'active contact'... Think of being on a trampoline or mattress and you do little tiny bounces where your feet don't leave the mat...little soft movement. vs standing on concrete. Not a great analogy but it comes to mind. And you will get a little lipstick foam...not an entire tub of foam, just a little light lip gloss Jeanette If you sit at your desk and apply pressure  to one  corner of your mouth just by the slightest touch of a  finger and your head floats round away from the finger then I guess that's a relaxed jaw. ..certainly that's how it felt on the rein with my youngster after he understood what I was asking karmikacres Relaxing the jaw A horse with a relaxed jaw - you can sometimes hear their teeth bumping slightly with each other as he trots.  If they are bracing they hold their jaw fixed and you won't hear this.  Not a great way to explain but also everything Leah has said.  There is no tension in the neck or jaw.  Once you feel it, you'll know the difference. Karen cheerios Jeanette wrote: AlythLong wrote: OK  Here's a question.  You are riding - how can you tell if the jaw is relaxed or not?  Alyth I think if you keep going you would eventually be able to selectively click and treat for a slight head turn accompanied by a lift at the wither . Have you seen any of the footage of Alexandra Kurland microshaping horses for tiny muscle movements, lifting thier backs, weight shifts, etc.? The precision some of the experienced clicker trainers can get with clicker savvy horses is quite amazing. Here's an excerpt from one of Alexandra's students: (from near the bottom of this page: http://www.theclickercenter.com/2004/store/Microshaping.htm) Quote: Microshaping is about looking for the tiniest 'YES' that you can click and treat. That means looking for tiny weight shifts (and I mean tiny) or muscle twitches. With Classic, I started with his pecs. He then started to offfer this with more gusto and this then activated other muscles. So I would change my focus to those other muscles. This would then activate another set of muscles and so on and so on. Each time I changed my focus to a new set of muscles, it took him a few clicks to tune in to the shift to of my focus,but very quickly he learned which muscle I was focusing on and he would work to flex just that muscle (though he can't help but activate others too). The thing I loved about this is that it allowed me to see which muscles were easy for him to activate, the differences from one side to the other, and also the sequence of his muscles and therefore how he would really move. This allowed me to gauge his training and I could focus on areas that needed more work. After a while of doing this, Classic muscled up quite amazingly. His spine was very quickly nestled in the most wonderful muscle and the muscle was proud of his spine for the whole length of it (something people work for hours and hours in the saddle to achieve, and often can't). In our repertoire now is pelvis tilt, but clench, abs crunch, lift up through the withers, pose, hips engaged, he can lift his back about 2 inches !!, and he can even activate the small muscles next to his withers....you know that ones that often atrophy with a poorly fitting saddle ? I can also get him to pose, engage his hip, and then lift a front leg (as one movement). And true to most clicker trained horses who start to offer well learned behaviours through the rest of their work (such as pose), he is now offering this type of carefully thought through movement in other things. Jeanette Yep. I've seen the DVD and I had it in mind when I made that comment! It features Lottie who is a highland pony just like my youngster...and who first inspired me to start clicker training when she and her owner Hilary were at a highland pony camp that I attended. AlythLong Well both the horses that I ride are really good at lateral flexion.  They respond quickly and softly,  Does that mean their jaws are soft?  Alyth Niek no imo it just means they have a good porcupine around their face PasoBaby_CarolU Jeanette wrote: AlythLong wrote: OK  Here's a question.  You are riding - how can you tell if the jaw is relaxed or not?  Alyth ...the horse doesn't bend!! Exactly.  A clenched jaw is a sign of a brace in the horse.   The brace can be in the neck or back or all through the horse, but the jaw is only one part of the brace.   This is why you also see it on non-bitted horses.   It's also the reason you want to get rid of it, train and condition it away.   It is a sign the horse is not relaxed. AlythLong LOL Niek - that's my opinion exactly!!!   Alyth Julie Horses can do all sorts of things but learning feel so as you can differentiate between a softening of the jaw and a softening elsewhere is important. The most important feel to learn though is the feel of a correct release. Jeanette Julie wrote: Thats a carrot stretch! Just thought I'd take the thread back to where it started! My copy of Twisted Truths of the Modern Dressage by Philippe Karl arrived from Amazon today page 33 he advocates bends per the video clip to supple the muscles on both sides of the neck...and at page 31 points out that an even overall bend  on a 6 metre circle per the dressgae manuals  is not anatomically correct , the horse always bends its neck more than its back ...the back remains virtually straight even in lateral work Basically he is rubbishing the official theory that distinguishes between lateral flexion and overall bend. However he does stress the importance of a correctly extended neck. (BTW The book is fasinating!)        It's About The Horse Forum Index -> Biomechanics and Purity of Gait Page 1 of 1

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