Sonny's feet 'take 3' new xrays & treatment regime

Clarissa · Sonny's feet 'take 3' new xrays & treatment regime

Yesterday I took Sonny for his front feet xrays. The vet has given me enough instructions to get the ball rolling until the farrier comes into play whoever that will end up being.

The vet basically said I wasn’t being aggressive enough with the trim around the toe area. There is good thick front wall & now reasonable sole depth, enough to start being more aggressive with the toe ‘groove’ to cut out a bit of sole behind the wall that is causing the toe to run forward all the time.

Because of the thicker walls & slightly thicker soles there is now more ‘meat’ around the toe quarters causing more leverage. The only way to bring the toe back is to cut deep enough to remove some lamella wedge & hence expose torn lamina. That WILL make the horse sore but the blood capillaries will recede away from the 'groove' allowing deeper cuts each time.

That’s where I have been going wrong. I have stopped short of making him sore. I have not been removing anywhere near enough so I have actually been facilitating the long toe. As the toe walls run forward the sole builds up to bear the weight because the toe walls are no longer reaching the ground efficiently. The long toe drags the heels under & the heels are currently way too far under. I have always known that.

However, shortening the heels is the incorrect approach apparently at this point. The angles of his P3s is within normal range but the bones are moving forwawrd with the toe leaving the heels behind & causing that huge heel cushion with elevated hair line.

So the remedy is cut deeper & give bute for 3 days spanning trim & repeat every week making the groove cut a tad deeper each time. The soles will keep trying to fill in the groove for a while until the internal structures begin to move bakwards into a better place with the growth of the new angle coming down.

If he is shod the shoes should be rockered & set back under a little from the toe walls but that will prevent access to the area immediately behind the toe walls that we are trying to shorten. So shoeing is a double edged sword in many respects right now but will have more benefit in a few months time once the new angle is well on it's way down. I mentioned that I had a new angle growing dow just a few weeks ago & that almost overnight it just disappeared. Vet said it was overcome by the leverage applied at the toe during the walking process. I am to keep the wall short of the ground for several weeks yet.

The vet suggested the heel ‘rot’ problem may have simply been due to overworked heels from Sonny putting more weight on the heel sole area (which is still a bit too thin) as the toe got more sore. With the bute & as the leverage comes off the toe quarters, the vet suggested Sonny should start to use his toes more allowing the heel sole area to thicken somewhat.

The fact that the heels crumbling & caving in happened right at the worst of the wet season is just coincidence. Vet said there had been so many horses that had suffered some sort of major foot problem during this last wet season due to imperfect trims/shoeing. It seemed that the extra wet had magnified even the smallest problem that usually would not have been an issue to most horses.

So that all makes me much more relieved I can say.

Once home I scooped out a groove from the soles behind the toe walls of both front feet until it showed a little pink. I will check him for soreness in the morning. Vet said best not to let the hooves get too sore to begin with ie to give bute upfront to act as an anti-inflammatory, because to let them get sore increases the blood flow to the parts I am wanting to cut into, hence making him even sorer. A bit like a vicious circle. But I forgot to stop & buy bread on the way home!! So I have to make bread tonight, so he won’t get the first bute until tomorrow morning.

Vet didn’t think blood element tests for copper & zinc were necessary because Sonny didn’t look to be deficient. He suggested I just put a non molasses block out & let the horses help themselves. I said they were eating the trees & bark like crazy. The trouble is there isn’t a block that focuses on copper & zinc even though those are the main offenders along the whole coast of Australia. The only blocks that I can find are just general mineral blocks. Rumivite make one that is supposed to have more copper but when the ingredient percentages are read it is apparent there is hardly any extra except for the $ the block costs!

Next morning....

Sonny is not sore! This is bad news

It means I wasn't 'aggressive' enough

drats

Here are the xray shots along with those from 2yrs ago for comparison. Then some photos from after the trim yesterday.

So this amount of pink showing in the groove is apparently not enough. Vet said I HAVE to make him sore because that is the only way to get rid of the torn lamina. He is to get bute for the 3 days spanning the trim. The first bute is to be in the morning of the trim so it has time to act as a mild anti inflamatory prior to trim. Then for 2 days after by which time the blood capillaries should have died & receeded back.

Well I'm going out to have another go!

I want to make mention of Leah at this point to thank her for her initial help. In the beginning Sonny had very thin weak walls & soles. She helped me develop thick walls which are evident in the xrays. During the last almost 2yrs between xrays he has also developed slightly thicker soles which in itself is a major improvement as well.

Vet did say the walls around the toe quarters might now be a bit too thick

Not to worry they will hold Sonny in good stead for the next phase

Gillies_mom

Seriously?? your vet says you need to trim your horse till he's sore??
My god!!
I was always taught that if I'd trimmed a horse and made it sore or drew blood that I hadn't just made a small mistake but a really seriously bad judgement call.

I've seen a horse with severe lamella wedge walk in hobbling, get trimmed back, taking all the wedge away in one go, and walk away normally, let off in field and trot around. Trimming lamella wedge does not sore a horse.

Your toes are too long, this will be wearing the heels away.

Your diet is off - crumbling wall, WLD, signs of copper and zinc defiency.

Lick blocks don't work.

If you contact Carol Layton here:
http://www.balancedequine.com.au/nutrition/nrc.html

She'll advise you how to get your forage tested. She'll tell you what minerals your horses are deficient in, she'll tell you were you can buy the raw minerals, how to mix your own supplement, how much to feed. She's a good source of knowledge in Australia she may know of a decent vet and a decent farrier/ trimmer in your area.

thebundychick

Clarissa, you only need to take him back to the white line, you don't need to make him sore. He might be a bit "weird" on his feet because his muscles & joints will all change, but that passes. I've had a number of good barefoot trimmers say "ANything from the white line forward is yours to play with". Ie - Get rid of it. John says all the time, 99.9% of horses foot problems start with the feet. He has cured navicular, seedy toe, laminitis, ringbone, simply by getting the toes off.

I remember ages ago, Leah posted a post about "trimming from the top" or putting a mega mustang roll on your horses foot. I adopted that trimming method, trimming back to where the hoof colour went from dark to "white" (at the sole) and John said Sante's feet were *still* a smidge long. (ie, I should have gone through the white line a little)

When I started consulting with John (before i put shoes on Sante) He simply took the rasp and rasped back to just behind the white line.

I'd put money on the fact that Sonny's heels will improve way outta sight once those toes are gone?

JackPNH

Clarissa,
I realise everyone is throwing advice at you left, right and centre and it can all become very confusing and very difficult to wade through and come to a conclusion of what is right and what is a lot of BS.

I realise that you have consulted a vet and he/she has advised trimming till sore, that concerns me greatly.

From viewing your photos it is obvious that the hoof wall angle is completely incorrect, note the concavity. Some of that outer wallneeds to be removed, and yes I realise a lot of "Barefoot experts" will disagree totally with me, but it is plain fact. LF is showing flare that needs to be corrected.

The outer wall should have no concavity in it whatsoever, no matter where you put a straightedge from the coronet band down the wall it shouldn't be hollow.

I could go on here for pages but I am sure that somewhere along the way I would upset someone with what I say and I am far from interested in that.

I suggest that you contact David Farmilo and send him the pics and take advice from him.

Or, if you like, I am happy to offer more particular advice either via PM, email or if you prefer I am happy to phone you, just an offer, up to you.

regards
Steve

thebundychick

Gillies_mom

Clarissa

I have to hand my computer over to ComboFix for more malware scans & fixes so I'll get this post out of the way now as I don't know when I'll be back online if the extraction fix goes wrong.

OK a bit about the vet who did the xrays. He’s an equine hoof specialist vet & is familiar with David Farmilo’s methods which is why we settled on this treatment to begin the process. It is not a be all & end all. It is a starter to getting the angle change the way David would do it anyway.

The reason about the soreness is that Sonny’s lamella wedge is full of blood capillaries & whenever they are cut they get inflamed, therefore sore. You can see how close to the surface they are in the photos above where I made the groove. Unless I cut into that material the lamella wedge will never go away & the capillaries will never recede. I was always thinking I was cutting into the wall/sole connection & tried not to go there. But now that I know how far away that connection is I am more comfortable cutting into the lamella wedge. There are farriers who deal with long toes & lamella wedge by cutting it all out at once, shoeing to the new shape & keeping the horse on bute until new hoof grows down

This is a far more gentler way to achieve the same result in the same timeframe. I’m not cutting into live tissue. It’s just lamella wedge with profuse capillaries in it.

The vet doesn’t believe that rasping away all the front of the toe will achieve anything. He said not to thin the walls yet. He felt it was better to leave all the toe wall keeping it just short of the ground to prevent leverage which develops the lamella wedge. The sole is taking over the job that the wall would normally do if it was in good contact with the ground. But because it doesn’t contact the ground, the sole grows right across pushing the wall out even more. So removing some of that sole along with enough lamella wedge to begin the process of pushing the capillaries back will make David’s job easier & quicker.

If you look again at the photos you can see that the way the groove has been made & the fact that the wall is slightly off the ground, brings the break over back about an inch right away. To begin with, that itself may make Sonny a bit sore & if he doesn’t like feeling sore the bute is there to help him get past those few uncomfortable days.

I feel that since I have chosen a farrier (who is yet to say he will take Sonny on) I should try to stay with his method until it proves one way or the other. There is one other farrier in this area who may soon be in a position to take on Sonny. He mostly gives clinics these days & has been too busy for 2yrs. However this year he has been training up farriers to take his place at clinics allowing him to do more problematic cases. Vet suggested I contact that farrier again if David can’t do it. The local guy’s method is quite similar to David’s anyway apparently.

RickB.

For what its worth, I think your vet has given you some seriously bad advise.

Steve, et al. OTOH, have given you some good, reasonable and rational input.

Your horse's hooves are seriously out of balance and suffering deformity both at the toe and the heels and addressing the toes, in whatever manner, without concurrently correctly addressing the heels is a recipe for both failure and disaster.

Laminar wedges, if and when they bleed, do so because the interdigitation of the laminae has been torn resulting in the bleeding. Rip your fingernail out of its bed and see what happens. Its basically the same thing. Because the horse stands on the end of its nail, the laminar wedge will continue to be present until the leverage is removed and the laminae re-attach starting at the proximal end of the hoof capsule.

becdubie

Well, I'm glad to hear you have some sort of a plan. As scary as it sounds to some...if you keep doing what you've always done.....(well you know the rest of the story)

This will be interesting to follow for sure.

Mandy'sMarty

Clarissa, It appears that you and Sonny are facing two primary issues that must be handled simultaneously. One is the mechanical issue of poor hoof wall connection, persistent flaring, and the resulting lamellar wedge. The other is Sonny's diet and the apparent deficiencies it creates in Sonny, resulting in his inability to grow a normal, strong hoof.

I understand your vet's concern about removing the lamellar wedge. My experience with lamellar wedge was to frequently trim the hoof wall so as to avoid the leveraging forces at breakover that your vet mentions. Otherwise, you are only perpetuating a persistent problem of long toe and flare. My experience was to trim the hoof as a normal hoof, and thus treat the lamellar wedge as normal tissue in that it was gradually abraded away by frequent trimming and exercise as it grew out with the separated hoof wall. My concern about your vet's strategy is that perhaps there is still too much exposure of hoof wall at the toe. If so, hoof wall will only continue to be pulled away from P3 by the leveraging forces at breakover as he moves, even at a walk.

It's difficult for me to see, in the photos you have recently taken, where the toe wall is now in relation to the ground at breakover. I would perhaps consider more of a 45 degree bevel that could be achieved with some careful nipper technique.

In hindsight, I suppose that what worked so well for me and Mandy was that I invested so much in supporting her metabolically with a balanced diet. During her rehab, I boosted her diet with constant supplementation of a sea vegetation blend ( not kelp) that delivered the minerals she needed to grow strong hoof. I allowed her heels to grow a bit long because she was landing heel first and needed the strong support of her heels to buttress the load while her weaker lamellar wedge at the toes gradually grew out. Over the months of this process, I watched her rebuild a new foot from the heel forward as the tight hoof wall connection flowing down from the coronary band hit the ground first at the heel, then to the quarters, and then finally to the toe.

Mandy's new hooves were able to grow in a mechanically correct form because she was encouraged to land heel first while wearing hoof boots with pads. The key is to do whatever it takes to encourage Sonny to land heel first as he moves. That heel first landing triggers the innate ability of the horse to heal itself and build healthy feet. But the horse needs the proper minerals in its body to create the healthy feet. A balanced diet is mandatory.

In summary, it takes a holistic approach. Mechanical adjustment with trimming is critical, but that alone is not enough. It also takes movement, stimulation, the diet that delivers what the horse needs to build healthy feet, and the metabolic support that enables the horse to assimilate the nutrition it needs from that properly balanced diet.

Chablis

As JackPNH said, I know you are getting advice right, left and centre but I also don't understand the logic in making a sore horse even sorer in order to heal it?

Surely, there has to be a less invasive way of helping Sonny?

I, too, think sending the vet's info/advice and a copy of the xrays (if you can) to the farrier (either David F or the other one you mentioned) is the way to go. At least then, whichever one sees Sonny, will be able to see where his hooves are at, and think about how to fix them.

Chin up, Clarissa.

Clarissa

Here are some shots of Sonny’s feet taken yesterday. The toes are really shortening. There is quite an angle change growing down. I just hope I can keep it going long enough to reach the ground. Every other time I’ve got it about this far I loose the advantage because if the toe is longer it seems to lever it out more.

So I am keeping the toe short enough not to apply any leverage until the new angle grows right down.

I’ll try to save some extra money & make an appointment in the next few weeks hopefully with one of the farriers I’ve recently contacted. However I’ll keep up this trim until I see it works or not.

I started the trim on about 7thNov by making the groove in the overgrowing sole behind the wall. You can see how much lamella wedge is present at the toe. Then nipped off the excess toe on 11Nov, then finished rasping on 13Nov. Spreading the trim across that many days seems to alieviate any potential soreness. I'm still being really conservative about how much I'm removing in the groove. I'm sure I could be a lot more agressive but I can see progress as it is so that is enough for now.

There is a lot of tearing occurring up inside of the walls & I am hoping it will now stop & grow out.
Compare these 2 shots below which are 5wks apart. It's easy to see the new growth on the later shot is a lot steeper. This is the worst hoof.

Clarissa

I'm editing this post because I forgot to add this part in from the thread in "Horses General Chat" that actually gives the reason why I am looking for ice boots etc.

I spoke at length about Sonny's feet to JK (Dr John Kohnke) & he suggested magnetic bell boots to be warn 12hrs daily for 3mths until a full cycle of hoof has grown right to the ground. He assures me it is the only thing that will cause stronger horn to develop again. He said there is now a laminitic cycle preventing strong horn growing & he is not surprised that after all I have done or tried, nothing has worked. He said the magnets will bring greater blood flow to the coronet band & cause the shunts to close a lot more often, forcing the blood down into the laminae causing stronger horn to develop. This must be a treatment he is currently working on.

The sole on one photo of a cut in half cadavar hoof looked remarkably like Sonny’s do now. It was really good to see what the xrays don’t show about what is going on inside his feet. He said my current trim method will work as a stop gap measure to stop the toe running forward but will never produce stronger horn because it makes him sore so much, nor will all the supplementation including his own supplements which I had been using for over a year since I last talked to him.

He went on to say that it wouldn't matter what type of pasture I had him on or kept him off, once a laminitic cycle starts causing weak horn to develop, there is no way to get the horse back to soundness easily. Shoeing is the best stop gap method but is not a permanent fix & can later cause really bad secondary problems due to weak hoof growth. One of the things shoeing can cause is for the soles to collapse due to the shoes keeping the soles off the ground whilst they are still flat(sunken).

So the bell boots will be ordered as soon as I have funds available. As yet no idea about the cost because they are hand made to order. What a pity I didn't know this before I had those flamin expensive xrays done!

I have been hunting around websites checking out icing boots & magnetic bell boots for Sonny.

this is the best site so far but boy o boy the prices!!

Maybe I can make some.

http://www.equestrienne.com.au/in...?main_page=index&cPath=20_197

Clarissa

After I posted that link to those good boots I found, I discovered plenty more available online too. However I got to thinking there is no reason why I couldn't use the same bell boots for both the ice & magnets. It would just be a different insert used in the one pouch around the top of the bell boot. Also I was thinking of making a simple bell boot with velcro added to attach either a shaped pouch containing the magnets or a deeper pouch with the ice in it.

I am madly drawing diagrams & designs to work it through in my mind then I might make a twarle (simple test version). Since I no longer own an upholstery sewing machine I will have to take my design to the local tack store to get them to sew it. Or maybe I can get them to share with me in this project & when the design is right we can manufacture them for sale.

Magnetic & cryotherapy seems to be a new therapy which is taking off & being used more widely. There was heaps to read online about it.

Anyway things are moving along ok with Sonny's feet. There is improvement in the shape & shortening of his toes which is good. I do have him on bute daily & I can see changes in the rings of his feet. Sometimes you have to give in & use the pain relief.

This afternoon during some very blustery rain my horses went galloping & cavorting all around the place racing each other to the corner to cut the other off & do proper sliding stops on the wet grass. Sonny was doing just as much & wasn’t sore after. He has been doing more moving around lately which could be the cumulative effects of the bute but also a renewing of the shape of his feet.

Once this rain dries up I will take photos.

I was so excited today to see for the first time in a few yrs hoof growing down below the level of the sole rather than bending outward along the ground. Of course it will most likely get worn off again if the rain stops & the ground hardens but it shows I’m on the right track & as soon as there is stronger horn it should be able to stand up properly & withstand the weight of the horse.

The heel platforms are regressing also back to their rightful place.

It’s all good!

Clarissa

Sonny’s magnetic bell boots have arrived & he is wearing them as long each day as I can keep him in for.
Because I don’t keep him in 24/7 I don’t want him wearing & loosing them down the paddock at night. So as soon as I see the horses in the morning I let them into the house yard & put his boots on him. I let them out after dinner at night so often he hasn’t been wearing them 12hrs. But it’s as best as I can manage.

Here are a couple of shots of his feet this morning. Note the great new growth all smooth & tight. That must be finally a result of the hoof supplement he’s been on for 9mths now finally working it’s way through his system plus the low dose bute for a bit over 4wks. Also the ground edges are very soft now breaking off very easily.

I stopped giving him bute night before last so it will be very interesting to see how much effect that has. His feet certainly cooled down & even now just 2 days later they seem to be warming up again. I didn’t want to be giving bute & using the magnetic bell boots conjointly. But if his feet get hot again I will have to go back to the bute for sure.

However I am also sure there will be some rings appear in a week or 2 from walking around in wet conditions because this last week we have had up to 4” rain each day & the whole property is soggy again already.

Chablis

Wow. Look at that new growth.

Horseshoe Creek

Loving the looks of the new growth! What hoof supplement are you feeding?

Clarissa

Clarissa

I took some photos the other day prior to doing a light trim mostly to do the groove behind the toe wall again. I only did the trim this morning while his feet were still soft from overnight dew & light showers. They were too hard to do after I took these photos the other day. I haven't taken more 'post trim' shots yet. Hopefully tomorrow.

Here are some of those photos with comparison shots beside them from almost 2mths ago. The thing I notice most is that the frogs are moving back making the heel butresses shorter. More in keeping with how they should normally appear. Also the walls are now touching the ground at a good angle so that they actually will be able to bear weight rather than run along the ground.

I still have to give him a bute each day for 3 days after a trim. All that bone & tissue movement causes a fair amount of heat for those first few days. but other than that I seem to have broken the laminitic cycle because mostly his feet are much cooler than they have been for over a year.

I'll know for sure I've broken the laminitic cycle when the walls grow out with no seperation or rot in them.

Clarissa

Sonny has relapsed back into the laminitic cycle & is back on bute daily. It got so bad a few days ago after his last trim that he was unable to walk even on the soft lawn. I think I have caught it in time so there shouldn’t be any abscesses.

However in last few days I have been taking a good look at his feet with thoughts of insulin resistant laminitis. He has got very cresty & fat. I am wondering if he is getting a bit insulin resistant from the grass being too sweet from being stressed. The season is way out of kilter. Firstly it was way too wet & almost totally overcast all day in November & December with the rain running off instead of soaking in. Now it’s bone dry, very sunny & hot & the grass is drying fast & looking very stressed out. I am assuming it is therefore getting high in sugars, oxalic acid etc. He may just be fat because there is so much grass that is high in sugar & not any other reason. All the horses are scratching a bit too on their faces mostly.

Anyway I rang the vet to ask about an insulin test. He told me it would cost over $200 & would have to be a full blood work up. There is no separate insulin test like for humans apparently, well not in Australia anyway. I went on to tell him how Sonny’s feet were progressing & that I had succeeded in pulling the toes back about an inch & the heel bulbs & buttresses were starting to like right again. I told him I thought they were nearly ready to get a farrier.

I then told him I was worried about insulin resistant laminitis because there is deep separation of Sonny’s front walls around the toe that is not responding to the hoof supplement or the trim method of removing the pressure off the toe. That is one indication of insulin resistant laminitis. There isn’t any sort of rot etc just this deep separation that is quite dry.

The vet’s advice was that I’d be better just spending my money on a farrier who will apply an early breakover shoe & keeping Sonny on the bute for another full growth cycle to see if the shoes fix the problem. He also said by then the wet season will be almost over & the grass would have completely changed in dietary quality & I’d have a better idea if he was getting insulin resistant. He thought Sonny was just over fat from no exercise, his age now of 13 & too much good grass.

I have gone back to getting all the horses in & feeding them a belly full of moistened grass straw which is actually 2yo shedded Rhodes grass hay that will have almost no nutrition in it anymore but still tastes ok when wet & so soft to eat. At least that is one belly full of sweet grass they are NOT getting each day. Lol

So the search is on again for a suitable farrier. There is a guy about an hour south of me who uses one sort of early breakover shoe. It is an aluminum plate designed for performance horses made in Holland & selling here for $55 a pair! Which makes shoeing a very expensive process.

So I am hunting for alternatives.

Here’s a photo of fat Sonny taken today once the worst of the heat had gone out of the day & I could go outside. It was 100 degrees today again.

Clarissa

Here are a heap of photos taken today before trim & after. I think this might be the last time I have to cut the groove behind the toe of the Left Front hoof. Hopefully it won’t be too long before the other hoof has caught up. He is still sore after I cut the groove & still on bute daily, but I can see an end to that too the way things are going now.

Clarissa

I think I have discovered what causes the ‘toe callous’ that has been developing inside the wall circumference on the sole of Sonny’s feet. It’s that ridge of sole immediately behind the wall.

Now that it is NOT there I can see what was causing it. Now that the walls are steep enough to act as a bearing surface for the hoof rather than all the weight being borne by the sole alone, the sole isn’t overgrowing the bottom of the walls or pushing on the inner side of the walls.

It seemed that when the toe was too long to act as a bearing surface the sole could push from behind & overgrow the bottom of the walls. However as it grew past the bottom of the walls it made a little ripple. Or perhaps that ripple was caused by movement of the sole wall connection.

In anycase since I have been able to cause the toe angle to get steeper, the sole now is beginning to grow normally staying within the bounds of the walls. Well mostly it is. There is still one short part right at the toe of each hoof where the sole still overgrows the walls & that is the only place where there is still some ‘toe callous’ or ‘ripple’.

I'm going to start a new thread about this because I think it is worth more discussion by people who might not look in this thread.

Clarissa

Poor Sonny is feeling hard done by. Until the houseyard got too wet a few days ago, I had all horses in here so I could keep Sonny's magnetic boots on him & under observation. I could administer bute & cuddles as necessary. I could also put them in the play pen & feed them a belly full of straw hay to lessen the amount of lush green grass they were eating. But with this extra rain I've had to lock them down the bottom of the back paddock so they don't churn the yard, play pen & near back paddock into slush.

So Sonny spends most of his day standing on the grass overflow of the dam which effectively drenches his hot feet in cooling water. Which is a good thing but he doesn't see it that way!

He's just had another abscess break open on one heel bulb yesterday. Everytime I walk around to the back verandah to observe them down there I get a plaintive whinny from him. He's such a sook when he's unwell.

It appears he's fully laminitic due to insulin problems from the overly sweet lush grass. Hopefully he'll be shod in a week or so & after assessing that & his pain levels for a few weeks I may have the opportunity to send him west to a vet farm if I can afford it (& flooding permitting too). The vet lady who owns the farm will have to personally assess him during her extended travelling rounds in March. This time last year I couldn't have even entertained such a thought irrespective of how bad Sonny was.

With this developing heavy wet season, I again have the same problem as last year regarding dry & non grassed areas for the horses to keep them off the wet sweet lush grass. They have already churned up the playpen where they usually get their hay. And with a new abscess hole in his heel bulb I don't want Sonny standing in such slush. Damned if I do & damned if I don't

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

I don't mean this in a mean way, but have you thought about letting Sonny go? Not comfortable on soft grassy ground? Not good.

I'm speaking from experience. Letting Finn go was not easy but I don't regret it and am glad that I've allowed him the peace he deserved. Love isn't easy and sometimes it means saying goodbye.

Clarissa

I understand you Kim. However I don’t think Sonny is anywhere near that point yet. Yes he gets bad from time to time & the rain makes things worse. Weather & grass have been my main problems now for 18mths I guess. Learning that his problems are related to the sweet rich grass has been a relief really. I was fiddling around the edges of that theory all last year regarding my management practices but nobody really thought that was the main issue.

However once this really deep separation began appearing in his feet I was quite sure it was insulin related. That means I have a focus for treatment. However the vet still thinks shoes will pull him through because Sonny isn’t near as bad as many of the horses that particular vet has seen this last wet season.

Also late last year another vet who usually just does travelling rounds in SEQld saw the need for a specialized vet farm for laminitic horses in this area due solely to the last 2 horrendous wet seasons. So she has designed a section of her farm to cater specially for these horses but she insists on inspecting & assessing each horse herself during her rounds. We are on the list for March. Her methods don’t include shoes unless it’s a last option & she has a specialist barefoot trimmer on staff. I just hope the cost is doable for me. (last year I couldn’t even have thought of sending him away due to being totally financially depressed)

I have done most of the hard work getting rid of the lamella wedge, shortening the toes & growing out a fair bit of the separation. However with most of the wet season yet to happen & no reasonable chance of moving from this property in the near future, I have to move Sonny off it to get full healing. Hopefully he will make the grade to go west in March for 6mths living on progressively rougher paddocks once his hoof quality & pain levels permit.

These’s no doubt about it, I am going to have to move from this property eventually to stop a reoccurrence. It breaks my heart after all I’ve invested in it & all I lost trying to get this place. However, for the benefit of my horses it’s best to move to less lush pastures! The first 2yrs here we were in drought, then we had a reasonable season but with some really dry months, now these last 2yrs of almost total wet. So it’s no wonder it took this long for problems to develop. This place is fine for all the drier years but not good for the few wetter years.

Regarding what I said in my earlier post about Sonny feeling despondent & standing on the dam overflow all day. I let them up into the near back paddock right behind the house 2 days ago & amazingly his stopped limping! Still only getting 1 bute daily but being closer to me seems to lift him somewhat.

This shows me that once he does get better I will need to be carefull that he doesn't keep limping just to continue recieving special treatment from me! I think he already does that anyway!

Chablis

Clarissa

I’m feeling so low & disillusioned today.

Sonny’s R Front hoof has almost total separation right around the front & sides & as far in as is possible to see. He is unable to put it on the ground. I have doubled his bute but I think it is not the correct pain medication for this problem. That hoof is so bad I doubt it will hold a nailed on shoe so it will have to have a glue-on. I can’t pick the other front up but luckily it isn’t as bad. The farrier who was to do him this weekend is now uncontactable….some sort of family problems.

Friday while in town I collected the business cards from 7 more farriers who were advertising on local tack & feed barn notice boards.

Yesterday I rang each & didn’t manage to speak to any but was able to leave some messages. Some have rung back but none are available. Hip replacement, too busy, don’t do corrective work, on holidays, divorce, are the list of excuses so far from the total of 15 farriers I have now contacted recently. Of the 10 or so I contacted before xmas none got back to me. I have to wait till Monday to ring the expensive vets & ask who they use.

I did manage to get onto a lady who actually doesn’t do shoeing but does advanced natural corrective trimming of some description. She was to ring me back last night once the screaming brats were away from the phone so we could actually have a conversation but my internet has been out for 24hrs now so no phone. Maybe she will ring today but in anycase she doesn’t do shoeing so not a lot she can do but she may know someone.

Some farriers pointed me to others but didn’t have contact details for them & I have not been able to find their phone numbers by any method. One farrier who only comes to this area every 8wks said “oh we just bung bar shoes on ‘em. They’re better in no time”!! riiiight

& leave them on 8wks?!

I don't think so!

Time for another vet visit tomorrow I think to at least change his pain relief. I was saving the remaining donated funds for a farrier but it will be spent on the vet instead since all the local farriers obviously don't want to do him.

So Sonny is on a new regime of feeding from last Friday while the weather holds dryish anyway. He is staying in the play pen & just having dry straw hay 12hrs & out on some thin native grass 12hrs daily. At least that will cut his consumption of green grass in half if that is the problem. He has run/limped around & screamed his tits off & gotten all upset & sad & sorry but what can I do?

This new extra separation has come on quickly. Or rather the hoof has grown enough to show that the separation is a lot worse than I first thought. Whereas back in early January I took photos that showed there was improvement with new sound growth, it was temporary obviously with this worser separation coming along behind waiting to grow out enough to be seen.

On a time line I guess that better tight hoof must have grown during the drier months of August September. The grass was a bit less green & I was feeding them a big heap of dry hay each night too.

Then there was out of season rain so they had to stay out of the house yard & I let them back down the back paddock. During that time Sonny was on bute daily about half the time. So the hoof that is growing out to the ground now was made back then & during October November. There were a few abscesses around then also. It was drier again in December & early January so possibly there will be another band of reasonable grow appearing soon but it will be only narrow, about 6wks long. Because the last 3wks have been heavy rain with lush grass & I have again had to keep them out of the house yard, they spent most time down back paddock so there will be another band of separation appear in a few months no doubt.

Also they haven’t had any hay since well before xmas.

I had been trying to conserve the last few bales of old dry hay because it is not that easy to get. Around here at this time of year it is all fresh lucerne with fresh Rhodes grass coming in soon but what I have heard is that fresh Rhodes hay is almost as bad as fresh lucerne re sugars. There has been bad flooding out in the hay growing areas this last week so there is likely to be a shortage again this year meaning high prices for all that is available too.

Well if the worst comes to the worst I will have to buy some sort of glue-on shoe system online & do it myself like I was thinking of doing this time last year. I’ve done a complete circle with no improvement & no better ideas during the last year. I also think I will have to join some Aussie online hoof forums so I can maybe make contact with farriers who might get up this way or at least I might get onto different shoe options that I can do myself.

dontknow

Chablis

Clarissa, I hate to say this as well but have you given any more thought to what Kim wrote above? This is a hard post for me to write but I've got to write it.

Financially, it's going to be awfully hard for you to pay some professionals (vet & farrier) to give Sonny the specialist support he needs right now.

Also, as you are now unable to float Sonny to that specialist clinic - if he could even be floated given how sore he is - due to the flooding, I don't know what you could do that will help him and he needs that help right now.

Sometimes the kindest thing we can do, hard as it is, is to let our horses go.

Thinking of you both right now.

Clarissa

So the farrier turned up almost on time today right after I had raked the carport & laid down a large square of old carpet for Sonny to stand on. I also printed out a brief photo history from my photos & recent xrays. We discussed the photos & drew on Sonny’s feet, did some hoof testing which just about sent him through the tarp roof! One abscess broke out on coronet band yesterday morning after weeping via the deep separation for a few days prior…..unless there were 2 in the one foot!

So we back & forthed as to what the best solution was & farrier had more looks at the photos & we discussed diet & pasture. In the end he asked me what I was hoping to achieve by shoeing him & I said to get him & me back into work. I said I had been thinking along the lines of an early break over shoe or a rockered shoe so that Sonny could shift his weight around to alleviate the sore parts yet not overload the rest of the hoof as is happening now.

Farrier said he didn’t think Sonny was bad enough for heartbars & that he would modify a set of rolled toes to put more roll on & set them back a tad from normal place. So that’s what Sonny got.

The horse was very good considering how sore his RF was. Last week it was the LF so sore he couldn’t even put it on the ground, then this week it was the other with abscesses. One nail did go through the abscess on the RF & it was still sore this afternoon. As that nail was clinched he did rear up so it must have hurt a lot.

I was asked to give it 24hrs to settle with some bute & if still sore I had to pull the nail. However by late afternoon he seemed to be walking much better & could even muster a small trot to stay infront of my fast walk carrying the fruit & veg scraps for their dinner!

The RF was done first, then the LF was done really quickly with everything set up in prep to just quickly do the 6nails & Sonny tolerated standing on the sore foot for 2 nails at a time even though he had the added discomfort of the hurting nail in the sore foot. He was hot shod which he found interesting.

One thing I was a bit concerned about was that he farrier rasped off most or all of the front thickness of the toe on both hooves to square them off somewhat for the early break over shoe. I was expecting it to be set back under the toe a little to keep the wall thickness intack & maybe just bevel off the overhang. I didn't say anything because just at this point in time it probably doesn't matter but in preperation for him going back to being unshod later in the year the toe needs to be left full thickness & not rasped so far up the hoof. Well that's what I know of it anyway. I remember getting flamed in late 2010 for doing a megaroll & being told I was thinning the front toe wall too much.

Farrier says rasping the toe off is the way to pull the toe back from being too long. Anyway time will tell I guess.

This is Sonny the other day trying to move across to me.

The offending hoof separation got mostly compressed at shoeing.

The RF before.... ...... & after

Quite a difference in the shape of LF after being shod.

An hour after shoeing.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That looks good and you have a plan, now get him in dry shavings and NO FRUIT! It also contains sugar. He is way overweight. Dry, grass hay only! No pasture. You can start hand walking him once he can walk on his own without being on bute. Do that for 3-6 months and gradually increase time each day.

Gillies_mom

Clarissa
It looks like Sonny still has severe laminitis gong by the picture you posted. Compare his stance in the above to that of the horse in Figure 1 of this Chris Pollitt paper:
http://www.laminitisresearch.org/downloads/chrispollitt_(2004)EquineLaminitis.pdf
I would also be doing as Carol is urging, and implement Dr Kellon's emergency diet, it's detailed in the link below:
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies....ellons-emergency-diet-214755.html
Good luck
Kate

Chablis

Good luck Clarissa.

becdubie

Yes, good luck to you and Sonny. Clarissa my heart goes out to you.

Clarissa

Sonny is very lame today. As each day passes he gets more lame. He is walking on the toe of the LF & can't find a really comfy place to land on the RF.

I can't work out whether it's abscesses in both front feet or if it's the shoeing itself that has caused it. His feet aren't as hot as they usually are when he has an abscess.

In my mind I am seeing pictures of the tip of P3 sitting a lot closer to the sole than prior to shoeing. That is mainly because it seemed to me the farrier shod predominantly to the external shape after shaping the hoof rather than the internal shape despite what he was saying to the contrary.

I was really concerned with the amount of thickness of the toes he rasped off before doing the sole & applying the shoes. I know that is how it has to be done for hot shoeing. He didn't rasp away much sole thickness that I could tell because in the photos it's plain to see untrimmed sole. I didn't actually see him rasp the soles but I did see him dig out the white lines in several places then even off the surfaces. So that in itself may have removed a few ml of sole thickness immediately under the shoe. There's only 9ml on the one hoof & 12 on the other.

All that could have changed the angles causing some small rotation of P3. This is my deep concern. I realize that now wearing an extra rolled toe shoe may make him a bit sore for a while until his feet & legs get used to them but this is different soreness to what I might expect that to be like.

Also he is on 4 bute daily. I did try to cut it down after shoeing but he was so sore he couldn't stand. The last 2 nights he has torn skin off his elbows, obviously having trouble rising. Or spending much more time laying down than even he was last week. He rarely lays down during the day while in the 1/4ac play pen. I wasn't able to find where he laid down in the driveway paddock last night to see if he was laying some place soft or not. All the ground should be soft now with the rain we've had & the grass is all fresh. Perhaps he struggled & ended up on the driveway itself.

I have decided to pull the feed pen apart which is made out of several long steel bar gates strapped together to construct a pen for him that I can fill with bedding hay if those elbow sores get worse. He will hate being locked in such a confined space particularly at night. He has never had bedding before & only been penned at clinics where he had horses all around him. Once Jude & Cassie go off to feed at night he is very likely to burst out causing who knows what damage to himself.

JackPNH

Clarissa,

Can you post some pics of the shoeing please.

Steve

PasoBaby_CarolU

Clarissa, it is your autumn there almost isn't it?

What I learned from my vet with Zar is that horse's produce more hormones in the fall, and if you have a metabolically compromised horse, this is when you'll see them go lame because their hormone levels are greatly elevated. You might talk to your vet about Sonny. Either his insulin is up or his ACTH is up, or both. If he is getting worse, he may need medication to get those levels under control. But you are right, he has to be confined in soft, SOFT bedding.

X-rays will tell you if you are dealing with laminitis or abscesses or both. They will also give you an idea of severity. I'd get my vet there ASAP, x-ray, and get him on medications.

Clarissa

Clarissa

It's 2.5 days since I gave Sonny any bute & he is a little sore on that last foot but I think all is ok now.

Because we had a lot of rain yesterday I felt the ground would be soft enough for Sonny to sleep on without putting him in his sleeping pen. So I put all the horses together in a newly fenced off part of well grown couch beside the driveway last night but Cassie found a way out...typical ! ...... aaannndddd well..... early this morning they got into the orchard with all it's carpet grass (paspalum).

Be interesting to see how Sonny is in a day or so after that. I could tell they hadn't been there long because most of the dew on the grass hadn't been trampled yet. Just a few tracks directly to where I found them grazing.

When I traced their tracks back through the dewy grass, I could see where they went through the old fence & whose small footprints went through first (Cassies!)

Clarissa

Yes the sole is bulging downwards on this foot!

I first txt’d the farrier on Friday afternoon early that I just noticed Sonny’s sole was bulging down fast, then with no reply I resent the txt on Monday morning. Still no reply so sent another Monday evening to which I got “who are you?” !!

I asked if he had a number I could call him on to which he said “no”. I txt the brief story & after some too’ing & fro’ing his txt me that he would ring Tuesday AM or visit before 2pm. Well it’s 1pm Tuesday now & no call & no visit. There just doesn’t seem to be any urgency on his part.

It’s 4wks anyway since Sonny was shod & I did tell the farrier I wanted him to come back at the 4wk mark. He either isn’t interested or he can’t be bothered. This is an example of one of the things I was talking about when I said there weren’t any worthwhile farriers in this area.

I was always hesitant to apply shoes to such weak soles without also giving total sole support. Now what do I do??

I'm hoping the farrier will come back today or tomorrow & I guess he will make a bar shoe at least for this hoof if not both fronts.

However I have never been convinced that frog support will stop the slow downward subsidence of the front half of the sole & hence P3. It is my understanding that the frog does not fully support P3, but rather it only partially sits under the rear of that bone. So how can frog support hold up the front of P3, stopping it from rotating & eventually piecing the sole?

From my understanding of mechanical actions, inflexible support under the rear end of something would cause the front portion of that something to rotate downwards when pressure from above is applied.

During my searches of the many websites or farriers who deal with this sort of problem, I haven’t seen photographic evidence that bar shoes have solved the subduction of the tip of P3.

I would like to see full sole support by maybe filling the cavity with some sort of strong foam or rubbery substance that will provide full support yet allow pressure relief at every step.

Does anyone know of such a hoof treatment?

Gillies_mom

Hoof Armor

http://www.hoofarmor.net/foundertreatment.html

Clarissa

Clarissa

Well I found the Hoof Amour online & stuff called Equilox Hoof Support Impression Material. But could only find the Hoof Amour Equilox here in Australia. It's more for glueing shoes on rather than sole support. So far I haven't found the Impression Material yet but it must be here somewhere because the videos were Aussie.

While watching those videos for the impression material I noticed a great precast aluminium bar plate being used for foundered horses. That would suit me.

Clarissa

What a truely terrible smelly mess !

I got a txt from the farrier this morning asking if today was good to do Sonny to which I said yes. When he arrived I had Sonny all ready with feet hosed clean due to amount of mud around the place & standing on the piece of carpet I dragged out again from under the house to provide soft footing for him.

Farrier (JW) took one look at the RF & agreed the sole did look rather bulged out. He tested around the tip of P3 & said emphatically “yes he’s definitely rotated, did you get new xrays?” “No” I said. He said he couldn’t make a bar shoe without knowing the degree of rotation so he could set the frog support bar.

Now you’d think he could have rung me when I first asked him to look at Sonny last week.

Instead he just ignored me until it suited him, then demanded xrays! I told him I only had $200 left in kitty which doesn’t even cover the xrays since they are $300+. He said he wouldn’t reshoe Sonny without xrays.

I asked JW to pull the shoes to which he said “he’ll collapse now you know”. Meaning his soles will collapse & P3 will rotate more. I’ll take that chance I think. I asked him how & why that would happen & he couldn’t answer. I went on to say that there is no evidence that shoes of any kind solves this problem. But they do sometimes stop it from getting worse. Sonny needs sole support not frog support. This ground is very soft. Surely that is support enough. Shoes just stop the hoof from flexing whether that is a good or bad thing.

Suspending the soles off the ground 4wks ago by means of rim shoes just gave them another 1.5cm to drop basically.

I’m well over shoes! hmph

Apart from anything else, just look at the bloody mess of manky rot & gunge that had been developing under them. angry6

(You'll have to wait until I am free tonight when I've got time to upload the photos)

I have been managing this problem with Sonny for over 2yrs now. Yes there’ve been good & bad times. But nothing to compare with this horrifying situation. While I’ve been doing his feet there’s been no rotation but sometimes there’s been some rot.

Now after just 4wks in shoes his soles have dropped & his feet are full of rotten black stinky gunk. & lets not forget that I put shoes on Sonny in July last year for a few weeks when his feet were too sore to walk on. But the soles never dropped that time, nor did they get full of stinky rot more than they already had. angry4

I wonder if JW’s tools were contaminated from the previous horse.

So I’ll get the bloody xrays, but I won’t be getting this farrier back.

I’ll deal with it myself. When JW finished testing Sonny’s hoof, he just dropped it with no respect for the horse & the hoof fell to the floor which made Sonny wince. And when JW pulled the shoes he didn’t even nip the clinches off even though they were now protruding proud of the hoof. He just dragged them through the horn tearing it & making the holes bigger still.

After JW had left I trimmed away all the manky rotting smelly gunge & dribbled in some Keratex Hoof disinfectant that luckily I had recently purchased. It easily filtered right through the hoof structures coming out the coronet band at the abscess holes, nail holes, places where the hoof had been rasped too thinly previously & it flowed across between layers of the sole on one hoof. I’ve just now mail ordered 2 bottles of Thrushbuster from the race horse suppliers in Brisbane. Hopefully that will deal with this new form of smelly thrushy rot.

We’ve had gallons of rain here. duckie

We’ve had our full annual average rainfall in just February alone with March shaping up to be just as wet with a massive monsoon trough headed this way by Sunday night with cyclones embedded in it. The whole place is awash & muddy. Almost every day that it rains we have nearly an inch. There is no dry ground for the horses to stand on. I move them from paddock to paddock every 2 days.

The ground will have to be the support for the sole as it has been these last 2yrs. I will manage the rot until the worst of the wet season is over, then I will think about dealing with the sole issues again. Until then, the soft soil & mud will support his soles & stop them falling further. I’m sure I’ve caught it in time. Vigilance & a propensity for copious photos caused me to see it immediately it happened last Thursday evening. I txt’d JW Friday morning but it took him until today to get here.

The RF sole did get worse during this last week. But I think now that the shoes are gone it will release & relieve. The tendons can relax, particularly that one that runs down the front of the cannon & pastern. There might be another abscess in the sole/heel cushion now that the sole is bearing weight again but with this very soft muddy ground & thick soft grass I doubt there will be much concussion.

I’ve got a heap of photos to process & upload, but they will have to wait until later as I have other things to do right now.

Whilst trawling the internet for sole support preperations I went to the Equilox website to look at the Hoof Armour stuff. They had a video of an Aussie guy applying an aluminium bar plate using the support medium. The plate was a precast almost full sole plate with a D shaped part removed where tip of P3 would be. I saw something like that at the farriers suppliers down the highway some ditance from me here. I am headed down that way again in 3week so I might call in & have a look. That plate could either be glued or nailed on. It wouldn't work here until the dry season anyway.

Sonny is booked for xrays next Monday morning first thing.

Spitfire

Why mess around with texting? Why didn't you ring him and tell him "I think my horse has rotated, what can we do for him?" instead of complaining that he didn't text you back. It is NOT his responsibility to chase YOU up.

I think he showed professionalism when he stated he couldn't fit a bar shoe without X-rays. I wouldn't like anyone just cowboying on a set of bars without knowing the why, the how much, and the where to first. Again, all could have been fixed if you had just rung him. Surely he doesn't have a text-only mobile.

This is pretty serious. Your horse needs a vet RIGHT NOW.

Clarissa

I appreciate your concern Spitfire but if you'd read my previous 2 or 3 posts you'd know that I did ask farrier first off last Friday for a phone number to call him to discuss Sonny. He ignored me for several txts over several days then finally said he had no number for me to call him on.

When I first got onto him 5wks ago I asked for bar shoes. We txt'd back & forth & he never said he needed xrays to work from. I told him the last set of xrays I had were from November last year. When he did see the horse a week later he said Sonny wasn't bad enough for bar shoes even though he had arrived prepared to make & fit bar shoes of some sort. He even told me it would take at least 2hrs & cost $100 for each shoe. At that stage I was thinking the he would apply some sort of bar shoe to all 4 feet.

So if he was prepared to apply bar shoes before he had even seen the horse, why now does he need xrays?

Anyway it's all water under the bridge now. The damage has been done & I will have to fix it.

Sonny has his boots on tonight with the thick soft pads inside. Before booting him I cleaned under his feet & applied more Keratex. The Thrushbuster will take at least a week to get here I guess.

Clarissa

Here are the photos to go with my post earlier today 16Mar2012

Right Front

Left Front

Left Hind

Right Hind

Spitfire

Wow, looks like his hoof wall has "let go" on that bad foot. He might have some serious seedy toe happening. Is that a sarcoid on his ankle?

Can you take him to a vet? That foot would be scaring the crap out of me.

Clarissa

I've got an 8.30am appointment on Monday with the xray vet who specializes in hoof problems. It will be Sonny's 3rd visit to him in 18mths. That visit usually costs a bit under $400! There have been other vets see him during that time too.

There did used to be quite thick walls but the farrier rasped them all away to make the hoof look more "correct angle".

Spitfire

My horse is going to the vet too on Monday - torn ligaments in foreleg - so I feel your pain.

JackPNH

I am sorry that there seems to be so many people having so much trouble finding decent farriers that have any knowledge of decent hoof care. I am now in a position where I am seriously going to have to decide if I want to stay working on the property I work on or go back shoeing and trimming full time. I decided to "do a few" for some extra money and have been inundated with horses.

Clarissa Sonny's feet are fixable, very fixable. Sorry that we live so far apart or I would be able to offer you more practical help.

regards
Steve

Spitfire

Is there any chance that Clarissa could ship Sonny to you, Steve? At least it would get him out of the wet.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Monday will be an expensive day all over, I have Zar's vet coming out for spring shots, check ups and teeth where needed. I may need a bank loan.

My Gawd Clarrisa, those front feet are scary. The right especially. I feel for you. I agree with Steve though, I think they are fixable, depending on what the rads show, but it will take a good farrier.

becdubie

It will be a long weekend for you I'm sure. I hope and pray you can get him comfortable. It seems maybe he needs a different environment to.live in. Someplace dry.
Keep going Clarissa, your doing everything you can think of to help him.

Clarissa

Thanks for all those kind thoughts everyone.

All I can say is Sonny & I are so lucky I made the farrier take those shoes off! Just imagine what his feet would look like in another 2 weeks at the 6wks mark which was when the farrier wanted to reshoe him.

I was a bit intrigued why the clinches had come loose all of a sudden. I suppose I would have eventually investigated that further within the next few days & found that mess anyway. I would have removed the shoes myself.

Interesting how there was virtually no smell until I disrupted the mess. If I had smelt anything at any time while cleaning his shoes out I would have investigated further.

I wonder if that is why the farrier made such a hasty retreat. He did begin to clean the sole after removing the second shoe then dropped the foot & said get xrays & we talk more. Then he jumped in his car & bolted. Maybe he knows he's made a mistake. I showed him the photos I had taken before & after he shod him & of course there was no evidence of any sort of thrush. Just the ugly lamella wedge.

I'm disheartened now to think that the thrush bug will be in this soil now, because to date I haven't had that problem.

QUESTION

Does anyone know of a home remedy I can make up into a bath to soak Sonny's feet in a few times daily over the weekend? Maybe I should soak all 3 horse's feet to be sure the other 2 don't get it also.

I'm sure the Keratex is good but I can't soak his feet in it.

I just took his boots off for a few hours while the rain stays away & they are all black & chalky again in all the rotten places. Do I scrape that away? He'll have no hooves left if I scrape too much away.

PasoBaby_CarolU

You can look,up several goo poultice recipes online. Put them in a disposable diaper. I wouldn't soak long and definitely dry out between soakings.

jwilhite

Clarissa,

If poor Sonny is rotated and you see a bulge in is sole then I absolutely would not soak his feet in anything. That is just making the sole weaker and that is the last thing you need to happen at this point. A stall deep in dry shavings would help him the most.

Have you heard of Paige Poss? Here is her site and a case study:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/severe-laminitis-case-study.html

misstux

Clarissa, for the thrush use half and half organic apple cider vinegar and water with a bit of tea tree oil mixed in and either spray or use a squeeze bottle to pour it on. The mother clogs the sprayer quickly even though a spray bottle works really well at first.

jwilhite

misstux, do you understand that Sonny may have rotation?? His sole should be dry with shavings. Please don't moisten it with different potions. Please consider looking at the link from Paige. Thanks!

Clarissa

I understand the confusion about why I want to soak his feet!

Yes I thought soaking a few minutes in something that will get into all the nooks & crannies & get on top of that thrushy stuff quickly would be easier than spraying on something & holding the foot up until it worked it's way in.

I'm not trying to soften his feet...

There is already so much moisture around here! There is usually an inch of rain on each day it rains which is most days. There is 2 inches in the rain gauge already today since 6pm last night. confused2

How I wish there was somewhere dry on this whole 16ac. A shed would go down real well!

Even under the house is no longer dry since those bad storms the other week & the verandahs around the upstairs are never dry either, once rain starts.

Actually I don't think there is a dry piece of land in the whole of Australia now. confused5

The boots keep his feet clean but not dry unfortunately.

There are portable stables made here but they are horrendously expensive so I was thinking of things that might make do as a stable. The I saw some footage of flooding in New South Wales on the TV & there was a shot of a 3x6metre shipping container wedged in a tree. It was pretty bashed up. That got me to thinking about all the containers that must be around this part of my state from all the flooding here. So I will enquire with the shipping container rental companies tomorrow to see if anyone has a beat up container that is too far gone to rent out. Maybe I can get it for cheap weekly rental. It's doors don't have to close & it can have dings & holes in it's sides.

I would have to think about where to set it up so that Sonny can still see the other horses or he would go ballistic & jump out of the pen. I have quartz gravel around the house which is very hard under foot being so sharp, but that would be the best place because it is well drained hard standing but there is no view to the paddocks from the downstairs front of the house. He would get so worked up & run around his little pen, it would undo any sort of repair. Not to mention the possibility of injury from jumping out of the pen. He can jump a 6ft fence from a standing start when he is worked up & he has done that.

Anyway that is my current thinking. I can put a heap of shavings or sawdust or whatever inside the container & something in the outside pen that can tolerate heaps of rain on it but not get pugged into the soft ground.

Of course the other problem would be to get him to actually use the 'stable'.

Newfman

Request at leas 3 views for those x-rays

1) Lateromedial

2) Dorsopalmar

3) Dorsopalmar-Palmarodistal (60 degree DPPD) to evaluate damage from abscess, and to see how much bone loss, if any, and evaluate the solar margins.

If the Vet notices any changes in the Navicular bone in the 60 Degree DPPD, then they need to shoot a Navicular Skyline view as well.

If they don't have digital equipment, you should save your money and find someone that does. There should be no significan difference in price, but an incredible difference in information that is available in a Digital vs an emulsion type of radiograph.

Skipping out on the views would be a getting you only part of the answers.

Good Luck,

Dennis

becdubie

Oh geeze you must feel helpless..... you need a barn/stall on stilts, up off the ground.

Or a platform, although you'd probably have to sink the foundation posts pretty far under ground for them to stay put...and it would probably not be cheap.

You may have already heard of thei:

misstux

Clarissa

Yesterday the vet cut a fair bit off the sole of the RF but told me the LF was about to be worse. It has to be kept dry to heal because that is whats happening apparently. He gets the abscess but due to the wet, silt gets in preventing proper healing so the hoof is gradually coming apart as each section gets an abscess but fails to heal. The capsules of both fronts have separated from the inner structures. A new sole is forming on the RF but it is still too soft to walk on & may be not connected to the structures above it. Know way to know yet & doesn’t show on the xrays.

Vet bandaged his RF with an iodine pad which needs changing daily. The bandage makes that hoof too big to get into a boot. But he has to wear the other 3 boots because this gravel on this hard standing where he has to live is so sharp.

I’ll report on the xrays later. They are coming by email rather than being given to me on disc this time.

http://youtu.be/JlBweH6hGC4

This is a little video I took on my not so new phone! Well I knew that eventually something would happen that warranted using the phone!

So as soon as I got home at 11.30am I had to set up this area at the front of the house with is a small turning circle but is the same hard standing material as the round-about & the driveway. The only place of cover is the carport which is flimsy to say the least. I left Sonny in the float for the 2hrs it took to build the electric fence around the chosen section. I left him out then set about working out how to contain hay bedding under the shelter roof. I had some fence posts & logs from the play area which I dragged to the house & house blocks stashed for safe keeping. It was dark by then & I needed to eat. But I had more work to do as Sonny decided he was bored already & had started eating the Antignum vine that grows all over a hibiscus bush at the corner of the house. I know they all have a taste of that vine sometimes but I don’t think eating all of it would be good for him. So that had to come down which a I was doing at 10pm last night. Had that all cleaned away by 11.30pm so I laid down in the hay for a while hoping Sonny would come in. He did but it was to pee!! I chased him out!! Geez the last thing I need is a muddy patch in the middle of the only shelter he has. It will be bad enough when he is forced to stay in there when the monsoonal trough arrives on Thursday, left alone making it extra wet before hand!

So that was it for last night. I had hit the wall & was dead on my feet.

This morning I was up a bit late at 6am. I wanted to get the drains done before the sun came out. BUT…. I’ve hit the wall hard already this morning. After only 15mins work I could go no further. I had picked up the manure & started raking the bedding. A rain shower came over & I took the opportunity to start digging the drains along the weather side of the carport so the bedding wouldn’t get wet. I scraped the first 2m section & I just about passed out. My core temp went up fast, I got very weak & started panting & my heart started racing. I had to get upstairs fast. I could hardly climb the steps. I had to get my clothes off & get under the fan. Then I fell asleep for almost an hour.

Admittedly I did 6hrs hard shoveling & barrowing work on the driveway on Sunday afternoon so I could get the float out on Monday morning plus I worked 12 hours solid yesterday till 11.30pm to get this area ready for Sonny & it was hard work dragging the logs & bricks. But mostly it was just the urgency to get enough done so he was safe overnight. Knowing that this morning I would have to dig the drains or the bedding would all get wet as the water seeped in along the edge of the carport with each rain shower.

It’s like living in a greenhouse here. Heaps of humidity & the sprinkler system comes on every 15-30mins for just 30secs to a few minutes. Some showers are very light while others have a few seconds of heavy rain in them. Then the sun comes out sometimes too, just to heat things up even more.

Sonny’s feet are wet again. There is no way he will stay inside that shelter more than a few minutes. With the next monsoonal front arriving on Thursday, I don’t want to sour him of being locked in before the heavy rain arrives which will last a few days.

I’m concerned about making him live within the circle of electric fence that will have to be applied to the inside of the posts of the shelter to stop him rubbing or bulldozing his way out. That shelter is not that wide, hardly as wide as he is long. Due to the drain along the house side which is inside the legs of that shelter, it is about 2ft narrower than it otherwise would be. I put the electric posts in at an angle so the tape would be right above the drain but the posts themselves would be out of leg or tail reach. He is developed the knack of being able to pull the tape off or drop an electric fence by swishing his tail across it. The hairs get caught around the tape & he pulls the lot out of the soft ground, all without getting stung by the fence. One smart cookie!

But I will have to put the tapes all around the shelter this morning so I can remove his boots for an hour to dry his feet again.

Also I am almost out of hay. There is only 1 bale of eating hay & 2 bales of bedding hay left. At some point before Wednesday evening I have to break away from this work & drive 3hrs for hay. But I have to go shopping for more tarps & erect them also.

The radar map is showing many heavy showers headed this way so I should stop this & go dig those drains!

jwilhite

Clarissa

OK can I just stop this tooing & froing jousting that only seems to occur on the farrier section.

Sonny’s soles will actually be wet to some degree. The vet has asked me to wipe his soles daily with betadine & to make sure I get right up into the nooks & crannies plus the RF is dressed with a betadine soaked pad daily. Also I have to wipe the insides of his boots with betadine as a disinfectant/antiseptic.

So you were both right!

Cheers

Clarissa

I removed the bandage off Sonny’s RF this morning then he spent 3hrs in the ‘stable’ to allow all his feet to dry. Then I reapplied a iodine soaked pad & held it in place with gaffa tape. This morning it was cooler & far less showery. But the afternoon was continuous showers & he had to stay in the shelter the whole time. He is out now between showers.

We have this monsoonal trough arriving in the early morning with lots of ‘major weather’ in it. Fierce winds causing lots of damage & drenching rain apparently according to both the TV news & my brother who lives up north & suffered through it all last night.

Since my little shelter won’t stand a chance against strong wind I have to go to ‘plan B’. That involves using the skillion roof attached to the cabin where the horse float is usually parked & which I call my ‘horse float bay’. I don’t like using it because it is ‘cabin space’ & shares a wall with the cabin bedroom. The inhabitant of the cabin will get precious little sleep with this screamer living next to him! Since I need the rent to pay for Sonny’s bills, it is important that I tread carefully.

I told the guy this morning I would be making use of it for the next few nights. Hopefully it will only be nights. I can put them all in there & close the gate & leave them there since it is a much stronger structure being the old carport for the cabin. These days it can only be accessed from the back because a tree has grown up where the old driveway to it used to be. Anyway I need somewhere dry for the hay & float so I built a new igloo carport at the front of the cabin for the tenant. But the fact remains that since I will be hovering around cleaning up after these horses a lot I will be encroaching on the tenant’s personal space.

So this afternoon in readiness for this torrential rain & wind, I turned the float bay into 2 stables using the steel bar gates. Jude will be in one side while Sonny is in the drier side. She will not let anyone share ‘her’ undercover place! Cassie will have to just get wet.

The rain is almost here now at 9.50pm. I will put them in when the weather radar map shows that heavy rain band getting close. That is the only way to stop Sonny screaming his tits off all night! Then during tomorrow the other 2 will go back to their paddock which fronts the float bay & if the rain isn’t too much he will come over to my house into the shelter (if it is still standing!) If the rain is bad or my carport shelter is ruined or flooded he will have to stay in the float bay.

I tried to get a load of sawdust for the floor of the float bay because there will be runoff draining through that area if it is really bad rain & the dirt floor will be turned into deep mud be the horses which is not what the plan calls for! However the few landscape places who had sawdust said it was too wet for bedding. Anyway I hunted around here & came up with enough to get me through a few days hopefully. I wasn’t able to get grass hay yesterday either. I had to settle for lucerne/grass 60/40. So I am just giving Sonny ¼ of a biscuit at each of 5 feeds daily. He gets blue grass hay with that.

I just looked on the weather radar & it has sped up moving south. It will be here by 2AM I’d say.

Another sleepless night shoveling water no doubt!

Clarissa

OK the xrays are in.

Sonny’s hoof measurements are as follows
palmar angle right fore 8 degrees left 7
bone angle right 50 left 40
wall right 40 left 36
sole depth right 7 mm left 8 mm

As you can see from the films protecting the tip of p3 on the right fore and
resolving the bacterial and physical damage to the right fore white line
should be the main aim at this point as the bones are sitting within normal
angles in the foot the right fore has an upward movement of the dorsal wall.
I would recommend trying to maintain depth over the p3 tip , keeping weight
of the right dorsal wall and continuing to dress the white line defects. No
focal site of p3 demineralization exists but the whole p3 margin looks
slightly dematerialized.
At this stage I would recommend radiographs at six week intervals as
antibiotic therapy would be indicated if the abscesses cannot be resolved
with topical treatment.

Cameron Hosking

So basically I have to keep the RF dry until it is able to bear full weight. By that time the LF will have grown out a little revealing a total separation which will need considerable attention. It will need to be kept dry also while it heals. The Keratex did a good job & the vet said to keep wiping on 10% iodine daily. I also now have 2 bottles of Thrushbuster so all bases are covered there.

To enable quick healing of the RF the vet opened up the solar abscess revealing a whole new sole developing under that old bulged sole. It was such a relief to me I can tell you that the bulge was not all due to rotation, but still the rads do show a lot more rotation than was present a few weeks ago. The LF is also in the process of developing a new sole too.

So long as the abscesses stay away now there shouldn’t be anymore separation if I don’t shoe him again. Those shoes recently applied were put too far forward under the toe. Being early breakovers, they should have been set further under the hoof rather than under the toe. There was a lot of fresh blood in both toes when the vet did the medical trim.

He will be in boots for ages now & I will get the easy boot wedges & dome inserts as his hooves begin to grow in connected hoof. The narrow bands of connected hoof that are currently holding the hooves together, were created by the hoof supplement. Each container lasted about 8wks but I was never able to have another container ready to use so there would be a break. Then that & wet weather & green grass would create another abscess causing more degradation of connective horn.

Newfman

Slight ML (Mediolateral) imbalance. The Medial side is a little higher than the lateral. DIP joint (Distal Interphalangeal Joint - i.e., coffin joint) is a bit wide. Indicative of joint effusion or inflammation. Common with distal descent, which is more obvious in the lateral view.

_____________________________________________________________

9 degree palmar angle. Maybe a little steep. I might lower the heels a couple degrees.

7 degrees of capsular rotation. The toe could be shortened, but not radically! Chronic laminitis.

Boney column alignment is pretty good, maybe slightly broken back. Set the palmar angle a little lower, and eliminate the capsular rotation and that would help. The Palmar angle isn't significant, and if the horse moves well and is comfortable, i would make this a low priority or non issue.

Soles are incredibly thin, and there is significant distal descent. Unfortunately coronary band wasn't highlighted with a radiopaque line prior to shooting the radiograph, but you can see the buldge at the front of the hoof wall where the coronary band starts, and see the curved band of it leading back to the palmar aspect of the hoof (the back of the hoof). The coronary band should bisect the extensor process (the pointy tip at the top of the coffin bone). Instead, it bisects the middle of the short pastern bone (P2). That is a lot of distal descent. This hoof needs to be protected, padded and supported until there is proper sole thickness. (Read Ramey's article, Reversing Distal Descent www.hoofrehab.com)

Lateral cartilage shows some early ossification. Early sidebone.

_____________________________________________________________

60 degree DPPD (Dorsopalmar Palmarodistal). This view is like standing directly in front of your horse, and looking down through his hoof, through his coronary band to his heels.

The solar margins (edges) of the coffin bone are a little ratty. More so at the lateral quarter (where it says sizes are approximate). So yes, a little demineralization. Old area of abscess maybe?

Again, you can see some widening of the coffin joint. Common finding with distal descent.

No apparent leucencies in the navicular bone (i.e. Lollypops or cones). That is a good thing. No excess widening of the vascular channels,( those leucent lines that travel in from the edge of the coffin bone towards the middle.

Early sidebone changes.

Newfman

The lateral side, from the toe to the wing of the lateral cartilage looks pretty moth eaten. Certainly a bit of demineralization. Osteomyelitis? Pedal Osteitis? Repeated bouts of laminitis, and or abscesses can have devastating and permanent negative effects on the coffin bone. There will be no regeneration here. When it is gone, it is gone. Diet, diet, diet, and proper hoof care.

The coffin bone appears to be put under a lot of pressure. Distal descent, as will be seen in the following radiographs, and almost non-existant soles are very damaging, as seen by loss of bone and widening of the vascular channels.

Significant widening of the DIP joint. Again, joint effusion or inflammation. A byproduct of Distal descent.

As with the left, no apparent navicular changes.

_____________________________________________________________

The excessive tilting of the boney column in this radiograph, I do not believe is significant. It appears that Sonny only had one foot elevated on a box, while the other was on the floor. Both feet should be elevated equally, to properly evaluate balance, as well as properly loading the hoof for radiographic analysis.

There is, however, a slight ML imbalance (mediolateral) as seen by imagining a line drwan through the nutrient foramens (those things that look like snakes eyes) and drawing a comparative line across the bottm of the foot. They should be parallel. You can see how there would be a slight angle created in the two lines.

Very significant space in the distal interphalangeal joint. Compare the DIP joint to the two joints above it. This is reason for concern, and should be aggresively dealt with, as stated above.

No bone spurs showin on the wings of the navicular bone, in either hoof. That is a good thing.

_____________________________________________________________

Excessive and improper rasping of the toe has left the tip of the coffin bone a bit vulnerable. This hoof should be padded, supported, booted and protected, for a few weeks at least. Considering your shelter situation, and this compromised hoof, it may be a good idea to board him at a barn that is very, very clean, as well as dry. At least for a month or two.

I'm concerned that, while there is a lot of lamellar wedge, I am unable to discern any real layer of organized lamina/corium on the dorsal wall. the radiograph is a little over exposed, but I should be able to see the leucent space of the corium and lamina.

More distal descent than the left hoof.

Marked increase in the ossification of the lateral cartilage over the last 5 months.

An antibiotic regime may be appropriate, but I have doubts that oral antibiotics would be of any help. Possibly injectible antibiotics, given IV at the pastern? Oral antibiotics have to go through a heck of a lot of horse, before getting to the hoof.

In my opinion, this foot is beyond amature care. A shoe would be a poor choice. You are in a difficult situation. Can you get something like "Care Credit" or something that would allow this horse to be dealt with by a veterinarian, at a proper facility? What about the University as a case study? Did your Vet suggest that you get professional hoof care?

Sorry for your troubles. I understand how difficult it can be. If you manage to get his foot back under him and healing properly, you need to make sure he does not get on the pasture again. Ever.

(Edited 3/22/12- Sorry about the duplicate DP radiograph. The first should have been RF 60 degree DPPD. It has been changed)

karmikacres

Clarissa

Thankyou Dennis for all that effort you went to deciphering the xrays. I should send a copy to the vet. He was a little miffed that I presented him with a list of what xrays were required!

That RF shot showing all that toe gone isn’t from rasping as such, but the result of the rot/thrush I discovered under the shoe after the farrier had gone. By the time I scraped away all the powdery & slimy gunge that had been hiding under that shoe there was precious little toe left.

Here’s the photo again showing the after effects of the shoes on that hoof. Within 2 days of this shot I‘d had to take most of the toe away as it was just turning to black chalk. And when I say it’s not directly the result of over rasping, I mean that if the toe & quarter walls hadn’t been rasped so thinly by the farrier to make the finished angles look all good, I don’t think this toe would have rotted out so much. Also you might be able to see in this photo that the sole has been rasped at an angle too. The farrier took about a few ml (1/8 to 3/16inch) of the thickness of the sole right under & infront of the coffin bone tip which made me shudder when I caught it out the corner of my eye. I had asked him not to remove anything from the sole as there was not enough depth. He was still happy to take those few rasp swipes even after seeing the last set of xrays.

It’s that shot of the nicely beveled toe set over some (what seem to be) early breakover shoes that I was trying to get hold of that ForgeNhammer used as his avatar for a while. I wanted to show it to the farrier & get him to rasp like that leaving the majority of the wall thickness in place.

The vet wants me to ‘stack’ or shim Sonny’s heels using pads made specially for Easy Boots. I personally can’t see how that can work to cure rotation & thicken the sole.

I think this lifting of the heels thing which has always been done, continues to be done because it has always been done! It’s that old thing about ‘doing the same thing but expecting a different result! Like if we keep doing it, maybe it will work eventually & we will fix rotated horses.

I am still to find photographic or xray evidence that stacking the heels fixes rotation! Unfortunately there is little left of the heels again in this case to lower although I might get about 2ml of growth by the weekend. That means putting shims under the toe & front sole area in the boots. I am using the medicated cotton pads as shims. I have to use a few soaked in iodine anyway & change the pad each day. It only has to be a few layers thick. Then once secured with gaffa tape that is enough.

I will reshape the toe of the LF to shorten it somewhat. The toe of RF was eaten away by the rot under the shoe.

The RF frightens me somewhat seeing how close to breaking through that P3 is. The capsule has come away due to the numerous abscesses that have broken out all around the coronet & heel. That’s why the vet said we had to get the LF sorted within a week or so because there is so little holding the LF together & as it grows that little connection will grow out. You can see the tracks all up the inner walls around the toe.

The vet says the only redeeming feature of RF is that the side walls are reasonably firm & carrying the weight. So he asked me not to trim any of that part just yet.

He retrimmed the hinds also. His didn't actually say as much but he was clear that the farrier I had got was pretty useless.

What can I say. All those farriers who were recommended to me by local vets were too busy to take on new cases. So I kept ringing down the list till I found one who would do the job. Yes I've learnt the lesson. No more shoes unless I personally have seen the work. That's how I always used to do it. It's why I kept saying there are only butchers around these parts. It was a butcher who came to do this job!!

Newfman

Clarissa,

I'm just offering my opinion here, as that is what this forum is for. I'm not going to get into a step by step 'how to trim' thing again, as I did all of that a couple years ago, and should your horse just happen to actually get healthy enough, you can review that later, or better yet, Refer to Pete Ramey's Under the Horse Video series.

Right now, Sonny is teetering on the edge of a cliff. If you do not improve his living situation, support and pad (with proper pads) and protect his feet with proper boots (as casts would be a bad idea in this situation) and leave your rasps in the closet, you will push him over the edge.

He is losing bone in his foot. The Coffin bone does NOT play nice like the other bones. Other bones are covered with periosteum, and have reactions when damaged, injured, or infected. They immediately try to bebuild and repair themselves.

Coffin bones are covered in periosteum as well. BUT, they are the one bone that does NOT get periosteal reactions. They do not have the little cells that go to work trying to fix and rebuild bone. The coffin bone just demineralizes and goes away. Permanently. It happens pretty quickly in some cases. This being one of them. If P3 doesn't come through the bottom of the sole, it will, at the very least, rot away. The end result is the same. The end.

No more experimenting, no more picking away at it. Sorry to be blunt, but this isn't about you, "It's about the horse". I would not wedge him up and put more concentrated weight on his toes either. You are right about that. Old school, taking tension off the DDFT.

This is more simple than that. Get the Pink (red) firm 12mm pads (+ an extra set) from easy boot and pad those feet and keep him in boots. Get him boarded at a real barn! Offer to muck stalls, brush horses, paint the owners house or wash their tractor. Do what you need to to get him high and dry, and in a stall big enough to properly accomodate a horse. Stuffing him in a shed lined with electrical fence tape is going to increase his stress level. That is the last thing he needs. At a proper barn, he will have a proper stall, be around other horses living in the same type of environment, and he will be able to relax, and quit emotionally/metabolically challenging his immune system.

Don't worry about the heels right now, not 1mil, 2 mils or 5 mils.

You can, and should stick with your Vets advice and apply the betadine, or if available, 7% iodine to the entire bottom of the foot. I wouldn't just leave a wad of it soaked in his boot. Use it to clean and disinfect, then put his clean and disinfected foot back in his properly padded boot, and leave him in a nice dry, safe stall, with a nice dry clean layer of wood shavings or other proper bedding (and lots of it).

Take him out of his boots for two hours per day, to clean and dry the boots, pads, and his feet, while leaving him standing barefoot in his nice clean dry heavily bedded stall.

Put him on a properly balanced equine supplement, with a hoof supplement added. What ever you have that would be similar in quality and balance to the Platinum Performance Equine product here: http://www.platinumperformance.co...ness-Formula/productinfo/EPLAG10/

and the hoof supplement here: http://www.platinumperformance.com/Equine-Platinum-Hoof-Support/productinfo/EHOOP1/

Along with that, he needs 1.5 to 2 percent of his body weight in quality hay, not excessively rich, given to him over 3 or more periods of the day. That is the total amount for the day, divided into multiple feedings. So, that will be about 7 to 9kg per day total. (judging from his photos)

Don't pick at his feet. Continue this regime for an entire month. Then re-evaluate, and do not jump to the rasp. It is likely he will continue to abscess as he has a compromised hoof capsule and infiltrates and infections are quite likely to continue for awhile. He may need intensive antibiotic treatment to help with that. (Main-lined at the pastern) If they say so, just do it. No herbal hocus pocus. Don't waste time. Vets, though some can be a little ignorant about horse feet, they are pretty good a infection irradication.

In your situation, and with the lack of competent hoof care providers you seem to have a available, this is the only way that I can see that you could get him through this. Doing the job half way, isn't going to cut it. The only alternative to a good, solid supportive program to bring him around, if that is still possible, would be humane euthanasia. That would be better than living through having your feet rot off.

Sorry to be so blunt, and strongly opinionated. But this has been going on for years, and he is at the end stage. We never really know what we are capable of doing, until we have no choice.

I wish you and Sonny well.

Dennis

Newfman

Sorry about the duplicate of the RF DP radiographs on the second xray posting. The top should have been a Right fore 60 degree DPPD. It has been edited, and is now correct and makes more sense.

Newfman

While I am thinking of it. Did your Vet check insuline levels? Sonny should be evalusted for IR and Cushings. If that is out of check, you will be spitting in the wind. Thy may consider just putting him on Pergolide anyways, and seeing if that helps. If your hay is above 11% NSC (as can only be determined by testing) Then the hay should be soaked for 30 minutes prior to feeding, to remove excess sugars. Another reason for a proper supplement. Nutrition yes, starch and sugars-NO.

I know surgical debridement of the coffin bone is way out of your budget, but talk to your Vet about Steril Maggots and a wooden clog. See if this is a viable alternative to an antibiotic regime and a prayer.

I'm running out of thoughts.

Clarissa

I did ask 3 vets last October & again in February this year about blood tests but our vets don't hold too much store by them it seems. "The horse doesn't look that cresty & doesn't have excess fatty deposits, so it would most likely be a waste of money" was the general answer. Also I was told the tests don't necessarily show the real truth of what is going on & 2 vets said tests were just as likely to give a false result. They all said I would be better spending my money on a good farrier. Note the word 'good'. Pity I wasted my money!

For the last 2 nights while having to stay awake because of very heavy rain(causing damage around the place) I have spent many hours pouring over the 100’s of photos including those I posted & xrays searching for the moment when the bone rotated. It seems to have happened during the days following the farrier’s visit when the RF was too sore for Sonny to walk on it. At the time of shoeing the farrier must have driven a nail real close because Sonny went straight up in the air when the farrier drove the nail home. It was days before Sonny could walk on that foot even with bute.

BUT…. I don’t think it is true rotation! I have already said that the farrier rasped & knifed off about 3ml (3/16th inch) of sole thickness just across the toe sole area & down one side of the RF hoof. You can see it in this shot on the right below. All that white sole appearing from under the shoe. If you now look at the recent xray of the RF at where the vet has written 7ml sole depth, it is at that point that the sole was rasped away to change the whole hoof angle.

If you can imagine the front part of the sole being that little bit thicker, it would make the hoof tilt back to a slightly different angle with a longer toe & coffin bone would show hardly any difference to the October xrays. The only difference is the very thick lamella wedge which seems determined to persist around the toe wall area.

If I was to put a 3ml wedge under the toe of RF & modify the heel height very slightly that would significantly change how the hoof sat & if another xray was taken I think it would look very similar to the Oct 2011 RF xray which shows 9ml sole under tip of P3.

So I don’t think it’s as bad as it looks. Where I have gone wrong recently is that I allowed the hoof to get too wet inside. That is causing the appearance of extra thick lamella wedge & preventing proper healing & regrowth.

Also back in December (photos bottom of first page of this thread) I posted photos of the new growth since changing to a new hoof supplement. That ‘new’ horn is what is being eaten away now by thrush & general wetness. So obviously that hoof grew too quickly & has no quality to it. Perhaps that supplement isn’t the best for this job if it makes the hoof grow too fast. There will be slower grown hoof coming along after that previous hoof growth because I ran out of the Hoof Plus Biotin & couldn’t get it again in this area so I got Dr Kohnke's Cell Provide instead which helps with hoof growth too. Sonny’s hooves are certainly growing slower this last 2mths so it might be better quality hoof.

Well it’s nearly dawn again, rain has backed off & I need to sleep!

Newfman

misstux

Clarissa, when I had my sweet Dusty tested for IR, the vet told me that it would be a waste of his time and my money, that he wasn't IR, I told him to go ahead and do it anyway. When the bloodwork results came back, I did the calculations the way I was taught and Dusty's ration came in at 1.7 with under 5 being IR. The vet apologized to me.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I can't believe your vets said that Clarissa. Sonny is obviously WAY overweight, cresty, and has fat deposits along his ribs. There is some discussion that the stress of going to a clinic can elevate insulin levels, but blood taken on the farm with little stress will be accurate. My IR mare is a 4 on the Body Score Scale. I keep her there to save her life. She was a 6 when she went laminitic. All she had was a few adipose deposits at her tail head, some pads along her ribs - which were still visible - and a cresty neck.

My local vet is a farm vet. He doesn't keep current on any of the Metabolic diseases. I had to educate myself, via the Yahoo Cushings group and demand my own blood tests and get with Dr. Kellon on the results. I also listed what medications I wanted to treat her with.

What amazed me further about this is that I SAVED this horse. Do you think that vet treats others horses correctly now? NO. They still just prescribe bute and isoxuprine. No blood tests, no specialized farrier work.

becdubie

Danged vets......what is it with some of them just treating symptoms and not looking for the cause?
Maybe it's too much to stay up on with all the different animals all the various things that can go wrong...... I still think the first vet I had look at bubba last year just favors working on dogs and cats vs large animals so he didn't really care if he got better or not. But I digress here....

Clarissa......thank you so much for your complete honesty with your trials and tribulations with Sonny's feet.....It has opened my eyes to a lot of things I would never have thought about otherwise. Stay strong.... you'll get through.

Newfman

My better half is a Vet. She is a small animal Vet. Did her rotations on large animals in Vet school. She doesn't work on our horses. We have an equine Vet, and pay Equine Vet bills.

Vets that think they can do small animals and large animals themselves, most likely do both. . . poorly. Kind of like a yacht design called a motor-sailor. Like a sailing yacht, it will sail. Like a motor yacht, it will motor. Just doesn't do either thing very well.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I kind of have to agree with you Dennis. Look at an MD, they learn ONE species well. Even then they divide into a more then a dozen specialties for different diseases and body systems. A vet has to learn a half dozen species. There is no way to know them ALL well. And the same thing, they can specialize in different areas.

I know people who travel hundreds of miles to take their cats to cat specialists. At the hospital I take my dogs to, they have a cat side and a dog side, with different vets in each, and they do a really GOOD job.

misstux

I agree with the preceeding. There are generalists and there are specialists. Join the Yahoo Cushings and Insulin Resistance Forum and get the best information available. That way you will know best how to advocate for Sonny.

When Strider got hurt, I used the best lameness vet in the area; I didn't mess around with the generalists - way too many bad experiences under my belt. My kitties go to vets who specialize in cats.

Clarissa

It's 2.45pm Saturday afternoon & I went down stairs to take some photos of Sonny to show how much of his belly he has lost these last few days whilst 'stabled'.

I set the shot then dropped the camera & broke it, dropped it on the extended zoom lense.

My camera is second only to my computer with the horses running third crybaby

There are NO camera technicians outside of Brisbane & it is prepaid mail order or drive it down there.

Yes I have been planning to buy a new camera but not this way! I want what I want not what might be available at the places open on the weekend. sad7

A BIT LATER!

ETA......... after having a quiet sulk & dummy spit I realize I have another camera...this (not so) new smart phone!! ...........

wait around a moment while I go take those shots again!

Clarissa

Well using a smart phone for a camera is an exasperating process of bluetoothing, finding the shared folder, editing & resizing, etc.

Anyway here is 1 shot of Sonny today. I don't like it as a photo because the perspective is not right. He is a much longer horse but the camera has squished him into the frame.

In any case he has lost most of his grass belly & I wouldn't say he is at all fat. I'd say he has lost 80kg which is really too much for just one week.

I would tend to think I need to be very carefull or he will slip back into being a thin horse. Which I don't want. He used to cost me too much to feed.

I mustn't be feeding him right because he is rapidly loosing muscle. He has only been off pasture for 6days. I took more photos but I will put them in my thread about what I'm doing with him.

becdubie

Clarissa? I was thinking about you today...how are you and Sonny doing?

Clarissa

Spitfire

I got a camping "mattress" (HAH!) slash yoga mat (true purpose!) for $5 from Crazy Clarks. Same material LP used to recommend for shims. Five bucks gets you 45cm x umm... it's longer then me so 175cm +. That is a LOT of hoof pads. Even if you bought ten mats ($50) and made new hoof pads every day, you'd get a couple of months out of them.

Sonny's bad hoof looks pretty bad. Put down the rasp! Stop rasping that foot!

Clarissa

Thanks for that info Spitfire. I was having a real mental block. So a visit to my local el cheapo store revealed these 2 products. The garden kneeling mat is much thicker than the camping mat but much more expensive per pad. I’ll see how long it takes to wear these blue ones out then try the pink sleeping mat. I’ll have to double or triple the pink pads to get the same thickness as the blue mat gives.

Spitfire re the rasping:- it is to just keep the heels at that height so they don’t run under again. So it’s just the thinest bit ever several days depending on how much the hoof grows. After the vet trimmed him I was careful to measure the height he had set the heels at when the vet told me not to let them grow taller/longer/more run under again.

I did get a real heart stopping shock this afternoon when putting his boots back on prior to letting him out for the night. The sore foot had red staining across the sole infront of the frog. I tried to rub it off hoping it was wetness from walking on a pee spot but it wouldn’t even scratch off with the hoof pick. He is more lame on it today so I am hoping it is bruising from his run-in with Cassie yesterday.

Sonny has been getting a bit despondent so I thought they might all be ok together in the house yard for awhile each day so I left them together while I went to the hospital yesterday. Needless to say my trial of putting all the horses back together again for a few hours daily will not continue.

Clarissa

Ok the first thing I want to say is the vet did tell me things might get worse before they start getting better. So I always have that in the back of my mind.

However just responding to some of Newfman's remarks in my little fun thread about Sonny loosing both his back boots in one day.

I am getting professional help. We have been to the vet for xrays & eyes/hands on help on 3 occasions at least with more than 6home visits & several emailed photos during the last 2+yrs. That is all I could afford. I have also had the (free) help of a friend vet who used to live a few doors from me until recently when they moved to another nearby town for work. Maybe we don’t do things like you guys do over there & get the vet or farrier every week & maybe I could have moved to a treatment more in keeping with a metabolically challenged horse last year rather than now. He only started getting the abscess early this wet season (ie our spring last year).

I know how serious it is but I can only take things one day at a time & it will take as along as it takes. There is no way to force hoof to grow that I know of so there is little I can do unless hoof grows. Getting all het up & running around like a headless chook won’t achieve anything. Today & tomorrow I am building him a new shelter at the front of the house that will provide better drainage & solid dry ground during the coming winter months with direct access to a part of the old orchard that is just blue cough grass which is supposed to be sugar free & fine for him to eat through winter. As a homeopathic medicinal, couch grass roots & runners hold anti-inflammatory properties & I notice he does seek them out. So he can have access to that area at night with his boots on & be stabled bare footed on deep bedding during the day, sawdust if & when the piles dry out after this last wet period.

Hopefully we will get early heavy frosts which will almost kill most of the grass anyway. As yet there is no grass hay available in this area due to the farms being too wet to make hay. So I just give him a little single handful of lucerne scattered & mixed through his bedding hay a few times daily while he is in his shelter. Just enough to give him something to do for a few minutes every 2hrs. Then he goes out to that pasture overnight.

Even now the vet hasn’t really suggested Sonny is metabolically challenged. He is allowing me to do the diet thing whichever way I want. However he was adamant that I needed to keep Sonny’s feet dry & make sure I keep all the siltty soil out of the dead hoof as he felt that was the major issue blocking proper hoof healing & regrowth. The white line was quite compromised from bacterial infiltration from the wet soil that was most likely preventing the abscess tracks from healing well. Previously it was just strange hoof growth that didn’t respond to the general trimming methods that normally worked for me.

When I got the first xrays the vet showed me a variation(4 pillars method) on the method I was using (trying to follow the Ramey method overlaid with Leah’s method) to try to bring the toe & heels back which I tried to follow but it just didn’t seem to work well.) Remember that in the first xrays in late 2009 (I think) it showed what we already knew & that was that Sonny had thin soles. That was before any other thing began to show itself & the overly wet seasons showed up. It was drought back then & he still had thin soles & he was a lot thinner then too.

Anyway as you know from my recent experience with the farrier, that is why I never sort the help of a farrier because in this area they are literally all butchers bar a few who this last 2years at least, have been so over worked with similar cases they just can’t take on any more. There are many, many horses around these parts & generally all along the Queensland coast suffering the same problems apparently, all due to the crazy wet seasons we’ve had. I’m sure many won’t make it, however I am doing my best to ensure Sonny is not one of them.

Even if I can manage to stop more degradation until the wet season is gone, that will be an achievement. Then the dry season will provide more suitable conditions to enable healing so long as I can keep his feet growing. Already they are showing signs of slowing down. Otherwise it will be like it was last year where for about 5months there was virtually no growth at all.

So if someone has a way to keep hooves growing through the winter I’d like to hear about it.

Hank

Clarissa-I have been following Sonny's story ever since I was asked to leave this forum.

I can't sit by anymore and allow this chaos to go on when it is now being done in MY name.

First and foremost-you are not using "my method" or Pete's method or any method of any reasonable hoofcare provider.

You have tried but you are not helping this horse-you have continued to create more and more damage with every rasp stroke you take.

You then make excuses, justify your actions and this process repeats.

You now have a horse in unimaginable pain, continue to trim him, allow him to eat grass, allow him to romp with other horses, refuse to take the advice given by those that still try to help you.

The condition of this horse is BEYOND your skill-it is BEYOND your information and what you are doing is slowly killing him.

This horse is moments from sole penetration. I honestly think only a miracle will keep his bones inside his feet.

He needs to be CONFINED. PERIOD. CONFINED in a deeply bedded stall, he needs complete sole support-he needs professional care!!

Each abscess is one step closer to the slow inhumane bitter end.

I jumped for JOY at Newfman's response on your 'joke thread'-he gave you the best most level-headed advice that anyone has given you.

Between your excuses and the moderation of people like Rick, it is a GIFT that Newfman showed up and replied. Other than his response, no one left on this forum is qualified to give you advice-those that ARE qualified have been asked to leave or refuse to come to this forum to watch the slow death of this horse.

Please re-read Newfman's advice and stop treating this as a joke or something not requiring your 100% concern and attention.

And for heaven's sake please never refer to my name again when talking about how you are treating this horse. I do not want my name associated with your trimming at all.

If you are unable to provide a foundering horse his basic NEEDS-professional veterinary care, professional hoof care and a dry home, then PLEASE discuss euthanizing this animal with your local vet.

The cause of his metabolic insult MUST removed YESTERDAY...

You will never ever EVER trim out of this. NO ONE can.

I am shocked that this thread is even allowed to remain open. I am appalled that you are permitted to keep this story public.

It is nauseating to watch. I pray for this horse to be released from his daily pain that has been going on for YEARS now.

I don't see how ANY compassionate horse owner can allow this thread to go on and on without getting involved or deleting the entire thing.

I am surprised some vocal animal rights people have not arrived and gone mad at this.

Newfman-I know we did not get along but I am completely sincere in saying how grateful I am that you gave you un-sugar response on that other thread-I just wish you had arrived sooner.

Carol-no need to ban this account-a friend allowed me to log in to give one last effort to STOP this woman from trimming Sonny to death and to stop the process from happening in my name.

I will not return to post or respond...this is a one time PLEA for Clarissa to STOP TRIMMING THIS HORSE and get him the help he desperately needs.

~Leah

Clarissa

Sensationalizing this will not help Sonny. sad7

Also be aware of & thoughtfull regarding cyber bullying. confused1

becdubie

Until you walk a mile insomeone elses shoes...lets not judge.
Clarissa is right about this....

Kim Cassidy

Sensationalizing.. are you kidding me?

I find Leah to be dramatic at times but she is 100 percent correct. Think about us agreeing with Newfman

I said it 6 months ago, PUT THE HORSE DOWN. This is the worst I've ever seen Sonny's feet.

What is the need to keep him alive when he is in this shape.

Oh and btw I have walked in her shoes years ago. So I feel fully qualified to say what I've said.

Poor poor Sonny

It is cruel

AlythLong

I was re-arranging my trimming notes today and a page from my print outs from Pete Rameys site fell open.....

It showed a picture that looked like Sonnys sole view and the wording was "Telltale "hump" or "footprint" of P3 on the bottom of the foot. The material behind the hump is generally sole. The material in front of the hump: lamellar wedge. If you see this on your horse" "I'll put this gently - PANIC". It's time for sweeping dietary changes and improved hoof care.

Now I understand Clarissa is in a remote part of Australia and the climate conditions have been appalling this year, and in addition financial considerations have to be taken into account..... so I have to agree if you can't implement drastic changes then it is time to let Sonny go.....

I know you have tried so hard Clarissa, but sometimes we have to be really strong and "be cruel to be kind". And remember horses don't look at life the way we do.....cyber hugs for you...when you look back in the years to come, you'll remember that you tried your best but you let him go when it got too hard FOR HIM. Our feelings don't matter.....

Clarissa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpObcut9ecM

I think I’ll close this thread now because no more good can come of it.

By all means the rest of you carry on chatting amongst yourselves but please take it to the NIP & KICK thread!

THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED

Kim Cassidy

Typical of you, you don't hear, Oh Clarissa you are just doing so good, we love you we support you, blah blah blah and so you are done.

Too bad Sonny couldn't be done with it either.

I'll give you one last bit of advice take it or leave it. Search deep in yourself, your true self and try to find out why you insist on keeping this going. Why you insist on keeping Sonny hurting and in pain.

This can't be fun for you, can it? Do you not want to ride? Or is it that you just want to be a caretaker, do you think you'd be a hero if you saved him (which at this point no one can - he is too far ruined). What is it that you are trying to fulfill in you that Sonny is helping with.

There, I'll stay out of it, I only opened the thread in the first place because I was hoping to read that your poor horse was finally at peace. I see you won't do that, so keep your thread open, I won't give you anymore UNWANTED advice.

Hank

PasoBaby_CarolU

I'm going to lock this thread. I think all the advise that can be given to Clarissa for Sonny has been given. I realize how frustrated everyone is, and it is sad that it has come to this. But nothing else can come from belaboring at this point.