Sonny's Feet take2 c/w rads 2010

Clarissa · Sonny's Feet take2 c/w rads 2010

This new thread is about improving Sonny’s feet. If people post in this thread I would rather they didn’t belittle another person’s comments or criticize the individual or their method. It is counter productive. Comments & discussion are welcome but not the snipping.

Right, now that I’ve got the big stick out of the way, lets look at what we have to start over with.

OK here we go again, this time with rads to start the ball rolling.

I have watched most of Pete’s dvds kindly supplied by OMD. It has bought home to me that before I was talked into doing the Strasser trim, I was actually doing a pretty good job of Sonny’s feet. I just wish I had a photo of them from back then. So the last 3 yrs has been a steep learning curve & I have just had another steep learning curve this last week or so. I will go into why in more depth later.

Following are the rads & the vet’s assessment. He has said he will send me his version of a 4 point trim, drawn on one of the rad photos, which he advised I use to get the breakover back & get rid of the lamella wedge which has developed in the last 3wks or so. Basically he suggested I do a trim very similar to what I had been doing until recently & also what PR suggests for this type of hoof problem. So we are on the same page there.

Here are the measurements & vets comments:-

Have sent the inverse images as the HL zone shows up better. As you can see no laminar changes just a white line dragged out at the bottom.
LF – pa 3 degrees, bone angle 50, wall angle 45, coronary band to extensor process 12 mm, 9 mm sole depth
RF – pa 4 , ba 50, wa 47, cb-ep 12mm, 10mm sole
No cup on either foot. Like everything there are several ways you can go about changing this for the better
If he was a lame performance horse I would say full rocker shoe with cushion support
However if speed is not the issue removing enough of that beak on his toe to allow a little earlier break over is part one
Then increasing his sole depth through TLC, biotin and methionine supplementation and if he is still really soft soled painting sole only with strong iodine solution daily to increase the depth of dead horn. There are plenty of hoof supplements out there with many other ingredients and if buying bulk biotin/methionine is a strain we mix the two in small quantities of raw powder for people and dispense over the counter as hoof food.
Obviously the break over change needs to be gentle as you don’t have much sole to work with but if its going to grow faster we need to alleviate the wall stress to get its blood flowing a little better. Something that’s interesting to confirm by venogram but again I understand cost becomes an issue and Sunny is not lame.
Cameron
Cooroora Veterinary Clinic
PO Box 137
Cooroy 4563
Ph 07 54476733
Fax 07 54477480

Here are the rads & corresponding hoof photo:-

LF – pa 3 degrees, bone angle 50, wall angle 45, coronary band to extensor process 12 mm, 9 mm sole depth

RF – pa 4 , ba 50, wa 47, cb-ep 12mm, 10mm sole

First thing to note is how forward the toe has become in just 4wks since stopping the mega roll. I can’t believe just how quickly the toe angle changed. Second steep learning curve! The bevel grows out so fast it requires retiming every few days & still there is too much wall on the ground causing the toe to splay forward. So far the sides have not splayed. The walls & particularly the heels, grew very fast while in boots. 2 sets of 5days in boots (1 set with pads) did not produce anything productive towards concavity unfortunately. The rads indicate Sonny has very little scoop/dish to the underside of his P3 in any case so perhaps he will be flat footed the rest of his life. It wasn’t always so.
I did a light trim as per vet’s instructions the day before the xrays last week, but he rang & cancelled the first appointment & it was rescheduled for today. So yesterday I lightly trimmed fronts again but it was clear they needed a heavy trim.

The vet (who does barefoot trimming himself & NH) discussed a 4 point trim as being best in this situation saying the lamella wedge really needed removing as best as possible by taking the breakover roll back as far as possible every few days until the wedge was gone.

He showed me that the lamella wedge is a lot thicker than I have been rasping to. I did say I had done a much stronger roll once & made him very sore, so the vet said I should work towards getting as close to that point as I can without soring him. Trial & error & wearing boots to protect the toes for the first few days after a trim. The PR dvds show me pretty much the same thing.

Here are some comparison photos I set up on the computer while watching the PR dvds, which I took screen prints of showing a frame of the PR dvd & a photo of Sonny’s hoof that corresponds to what PR was discussing.

Vet didn’t have any new ideas about developing thicker sole. Just to keep doing what I had been doing to grow the walls better & hopefully it would come good with time. He did tell me about painting iodine on the soles. Same for the bars & of course the heels.

Here are some comparison photos of the last few trim cycles that show the regression.

I have decided to return to Leah’s trim to grow the new angle out again since I had success with that & along the way I will make individual tweaks for Sonny by adding some PR things to help the heels, quarters & hopefully get some better sole happening & possibly even some concavity too. What suits other horses obviously doesn’t suit Sonny.

So newfman you may not like my decision. However I must thank you for your input, because without it I would not have gotten xrays so quickly & the discussion would not have heated up causing OMD to lend her dvds to me which clarified the situation.

Just have to start all over again now.

jokersmama

Thank you for sharing this Clarissa! I have been following Sonny's hoof thread with interest but haven't had anything to add, other than I enjoy the discussion and your willingness to continue sharing.

I look forward to the coming updates and am wishing you good luck!

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

Good for you!! Those are some seriously thin soles. What is your plan besides returning to Trimming From the Top?

Instead of boots, how about using Equicast with Impression Material packed in the collateral grooves and around the apex of the frog? If you are worried about traction you could put some superfast strips on the bottom to give the horse some leverage.

In my experiences, once the soles are this thin, trimming alone will not fix it. Your horse (IMO) is in a episode of inflammation of the corium. Relief will come when you get the soles up off the ground. This in turn gives the horse a chance to start building sole depth.

Hope this helps, if you have more questions let us know.

Clarissa

RAD I have only read a little about doing that sort of thing plus what has been posted on this forum & another I looked at a while back. I would consider it if it was within my budget. The xrays have emptied my savings account for the time being. All up last year& including this month Sonny cost me almost au$2000 which was mostly to do with his feet one way or another. I am wearing shoes & clothes with holes in so he can have feet!

Before the vet did the xrays he checked Sonny's 4 hooves, took a swipe across sole of LF & dug out the connection between sole & wall to expose the lamella wedge that has just recently redeveloped. There was blood in there. He also pressed on the various nerves that supply the hoof but there was no indication of pain. He then used the hoof testers in several different places on both front feet. The back feet are not as bad although they could be a lot better.

There was a little mild discomfort in places but the vet didn't find any pain although he did say the digital pulse was up? Or maybe he said Sonny had faster digital pulses. I have yet to learn properly about digital pulses. Would he have found any indication of corium inflamation?

I could ask the vet about that casting stuff because I haven't seen it for sale in my town. I had thought of using those plastic shoes but I did read some bad reports about them but they are available in my town.

However I still feel shoes are shoes are shoes with all that involves.

fairhavenranch

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

I only use Epona's and find they are the best and also the most expensive shoes to put on. The casts, at least in the states are cheap $15.00 per.

You would need to buy the Impression Material, Glue, Glue gun and Tips. Those would last you many applications. I would think you could get Equibond Glue, gun and tips locally. My preferred IM is from Epona (I've tried them all) and they have the best density and support, IMO.

I do not see a Lamellar Wedge, I see thin soles and long toes. You won't fix those long toes until you develop sole depth/mass.

Stare at those xrays and imagine the coffin bone sitting on a thicker sole. Do you see how you could then take the toe back? You can't until you have that.

You won't have that until you protect the bottom of the feet. No amount of trimming will change that, you've already tried

So save your ducats and get the casts, it will be something you can do on your own.

Also so you and anyone else interested understand the measurements the vet is discussing go here

http://www.nanric.com/soft_tissue_parameters.asp

The vet is using Redden's method of measuring.

Clarissa

I never got a reply from Epona when I emailed them & finally the email came back undeliverable! They aren't available in Australia that I've been able to find. So that's the end of that!

The unfortunate part about all this disruption to the trimming regime (whether it was the right one or not) is that Sonny's feet have declined in every respect. They have splayed in all directions, the toes have gotten really long & sloping again & the heels are long & to be honest it looks to me that the coffin bone has dropped through the hoof shell. That is demonstrated by the very deep heel cushions. Basically they are back where they started this time last year.

Leah said I had to wait longer between trims now but the toes started to crack yesterday both verticle & transverse(R photo, 2nd row) with the extreme wet weather we have had here lately, so I had to trim them. The hinds also started to separate transverse at the toe also (last photo shows crack in rasped roll of toe). There is blood/bruising at the sole wall connection inside the hind toe probably from stretching the laminae.

The bevel trim was growing out within a few days so I am just doing a basic rasp from the top trim for a while until the hooves contract a bit. There has been blood between the layers of the wall of the front feet due to the long toe stretching. However I would really like to have a better breakover at the toe but I may have to wait a few weeks for that.

The front feet got 2 very minor trims prior to xrays. The first time the xrays were cancelled but I had to trim again the next week when the xray was on again. It was just really a tidy up so I didn't count them as a proper trim. The back feet hadn't been trimmed for 5wks & it really shows.

Here are photos of before & after the trim of the left front & hind. The toe callous (R photo 3rd row) is very prominent.

Clarissa

Leah said all was good with my trim which was a relief! She said the splayed walls should tighten up again with in a few trims. I certainly hope so!

Then she added:-
You are not permitted to touch his feet for at LEAST 3 weeks. LOL

Hertha

Hi Clarissa. This has been interesting.

After lots of mucking about, I've found what works for me is to trim fronts every 7-9 days and maybe a bit longer between trims for the hinds.

Boots lives in soft pasture and most of our riding is on grass. So she is not getting the wear that a horse in wilder conditions would get, so the rasp has to take the place of the miles of travel.

Naturally, hooves would be worn down daily. So I can't understand the people who say to leave weeks between trims.

Just my two cents worth.

Clarissa

Clarissa

Yesterday I looked at Sonny's feet & realized they were starting to split again in this exceptionally wet weather so it was time to trim them a little.

I have decided to go back to the way I used to do his feet before he started having back problems (which I was told were caused by his feet which turned out to be incorrect).

During the last year I have stuck to the 1 trim method, but in the end it has achieved nothing solid. So I will revert to what did work for me prior to being talked into the strasser method that started all this trouble. He never had crushed bars or flat soles althoguh he has always been soft footed.

Leaving his feet for 3wks twice in a row has shown me that if I don't trim off the heels, his bars start to grow & stand up again. I wanted to leave his feet another week but this very wet weather is not doing them much good as the horses spend most of their time in the lower part of the paddocks where they are walking in water eating water weeds.

It is clear to see in the photos this time that there is definate bar growth for the first time in over a year. Leaving his heels longer allows room for the bars to grow straight instead of being crushed over by his weight. One photo of the front sole also has an arrow on it. That is pointing to a layer of sole which has grown across in the last few days. It has almost made it's way to the sole wall connection. I imagine if that was to happen quite regularly, the soles would thicken up again in time. I guess it has room to grown because I am not trimming the walls right down to the sole level.

My thinking is that the sole will grow layers if I give it room much like allowing the heel to grow down more is giving the bars room to grow. I am allowing a good 1/4inch or more of wall below sole level. This very wet ground means they sink into the ground so there is always good contact between sole & ground. Once the dry season clicks in & the ground goes hard I will have to modify the trim a bit then. But for now I will try to leave as much as possible if I continue to see good sole & bar growth. Of course I don't want to see the longer walls flaring or cracking so those will be the defining parameters.

Here are photos I took today. I actually did the nipper trim yesterday but it rained so the light rasping got done today. I don't usually worry about rapsing after trimming with nippers. But I did it this time for the benefit of the photos!

I find this pattern of growth of sole material very interesting the way it is fanning out from around the frog. I have put an arrow where it has grown to in the last few days. It's like there is room now for the hoof to put down new layers of material to thicken the sole since I am not trimming the lower edge of the walls.

The hinds are still a bit at the wrong angle but I think they will stand up better by the next trim.

Gillies_mom

Hi Clarissa
Sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere - but what is Sonny's diet?
Kate

Clarissa

Gillies_mom

It's hard to compare diets when we are in different continents. Over here there is a group called the UKNHCP, the founder members have written a basic hoof care book, called feet First, they would recomend a change in diet to improve thin soles. Basically it says to cut down on sugar and starch, if the horse is prone to laminitis feed hay rather than fresh grass. Then feed a hard feed of either sugar beet or alfalfa (lucerne), mixed with the majic formula of seaweed meal, micronised linseed, brewers yeast and magnesium oxide. If you are interested their chat forum has lots of questions and answers about diet
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/
However I don't know if this diet would be relevant or even available in Australia.
Good luck with Sonny
Kate

Hertha

Hi Clarissa,

Interesting that you use mainly nippers. I use a rasp only and hoof knife for keeping the bars upright.

Wouldn't the sole thicken FROM contact with the ground, rather than leaving 0.25 inches of wall?

The mustang roll done strongly from above would shorten the toe and maybe give a truer angle to match the pedal bone???????????????

Only random thoughts.........I don't know much about this, only what works with Boots.

Clarissa

Thanks for the link Kate.

Hertha, the words that are constantly going through my mind these days have to do with that definition of madness... you know the one Pat always says......continuing to do the same thing but expecting a different result.

So I figured I never had these problems when I was just doing a very basic trim using hoof nippers. So I thought there was no harm in going back to that method for a few trim cycles anyway to see what happens.

The fact that bars are starting to form again & stand straight up rather than lay over has been very encouraging to me because it's such a long time since I have seen that form of landscape on his soles!

I think the current wet weather is helping by giving him very soft footing so there is no pressure on the new formations. Perhaps the fact that his soles are so thin puts too much pressure on the structures like the bars so they roll over/collaspe. Although his bars have been flattened for much longer than just a few months.

I looked back through all the photos of the previous thread about his feet & it is clear to see in the Sep/Oct photos that was when his soles went really flat & the collateral groove angle changed. Could've been due to the very hard dry pasture at that time or another totally unrelated reason. All I know is that none of my management elements of him changed in any way at or before that time. So what caused it?

Hertha

The diet and the nature of the ground and amount of movement the horse does obviously all interact, but I think the nature of the ground has a huge influence, along with diet, which of course also changes as the seasons change, so it's a two-fold impact.

I notice quite a difference between wet winter and dry summer - but this summer we've had very little dry so the feet generally have been good. Because of all the rain, I've fed hay every morning, not a lot, but something to counterbalance the contantly growing grass. New grazing is limited to a strip in the evening. The rest of the time they can only nibble very short paddock.

I think a tsp of seaweed a day helps, and they get a splurge of cider vinegar in the water that soaks the tiny bit of beet pulp they get. Boots is also on a magnesium/calcium supplement and gets daily carrot.

Clarissa

Well I managed to hold off trimming Sonny’s feet for 3.5wks but it just couldn’t wait anymore because the front toes were splaying way forward & when I checked the wall sole connection, there was blood from stretched laminae. Which is a really interesting thing because the toe callous seems to grow right across that stretched area. For this trim I have used the looped knife to scrape out that connection to find the true sole wall connection. I have left the remaining toe callous covering the sole in that area.

There is a real pattern of wear apparent now that the paddocks are so wet. The walls had grown about 10ml or 1/3inch everywhere except the toe. But when I cut away the overlapping toe callous it was apparent the toe wall had also grown the same amount. So I just removed a thin strip of toe callous right inside the wall so I could gauge the correct sole plane & left the rest of the callous. It only happens on the front feet.

Having these wet conditions has allowed the bars to grow straight down the same depth as the walls, instead of being forced to bend over across the sole. Hopefully they will set that new better shaped growth before the dry season hardens the soil. I often think it’s because the bars are not functioning properly which has allowed the soles to flatten so much. What I think I will see is when the bars get firm in their proper growth patterns & stay upright, the sole will be forced to become properly concave. Hopefully anyway! Last year’s wet season was pathetic & the soil was only soft a little while here & there, so it’s been 2yrs since proper soft soil. It’s about that long since his feet had any concavity under them. That doesn’t have any bearing on his sole thickness though, which of course is still pathetically thin. But that huge toe callous must be doing something.

I started Sonny on Kohnke’s Own Cell Provide 3.5wks ago. I think I should’ve got the Cell Vital but anyway the stuff is so expensive I will have to use what I bought.

The hooves are showing when I started giving it right after the rings in the top third of wall. It also shows just how fast they are growing right now. When I used the concentrate last time I did notice faster hoof growth.

I have a theory about wall thickness. When I was doing Leah’s trim, new thicker walls did grow right down & they were really good. A new angle is apparent again now & I feel it is a thinning of the wall from late last year with the upheaval over trim methods more so than a change in angle of P3. I am going to use my engraving tool to scribe a mark so I can watch it grow down. When it reaches the ground I think I will see thinner walls. However I also think I will see them thicken up again after about 2 trim cycles as the wall that has been made over the last 2mths grows out. Just a little experiment for my own information!

I rode Sonny for the first time in ages last Thursday on a 3hr trail ride. I used his easy boots although they probably weren’t necessary for where we went. Being so wet around here these days, the paddocks & even the sides of the dirt roads are quite soft for the most part. Anyway I was only just able to fit his feet into his boots! Lucky really, as I was trying to resist trimming his feet before the 4th wk was up! But the ride did cause the stretching laminae hence the bleeding & dire need to trim.

Here are the photos pre & post trim:-

yes I know...I can't spell inch!!

actually I left an 1/8th on an inch of wall!

bit

Just a question, and please keep in mind I know nothing about trimming. I ask a lot of questions from my trimmer, and I think we spend as much time talking about feet than she does trimming.
That in mind, my questioning mind that is, does Sonny's feet have a LOT to do with how his top line can go really south? I remember you saying that if you don't stay on top of it, with his top line, it goes right back to where it was quite quickly. It seems the feet can have an awful lot to do with the whole body, which has a lot to do with diet, teeth, whatever. If one thing is off, the whole horse seems to suffer.
Is is like with our backs? This is something I'm a bit more familiar. Say you have a neck injury, that will affect your shoulder, your hip, your knee...it touches the whole body, not to mention headaches, which I hear horses get, too. So if the feet are not right, headaches? Hips? Back? Neck? See where I'm going with this?

Clarissa

In a word Bit, YES...... to all you said!

The one variance would be that becasue it is ages since I rode Sonny, his back had sort of sprung back up somewhat. But as soon as he had been ridden & his feet/body parts got sore again the back slumped down again.

I can fully understand why he does that because I do the very same thing myself after I have done a heap of work after a lay off.

Hertha

Clarissa, do you use a hoof stand to do the final rasping from top down to get the mustang roll (brumby bullnose?????).

Without a hoofstand there's no way my aging muscles could cope with trimming - it makes it so much easier.

Interesting the immediate effect of the supplement.

Clarissa

Hertha

Me too. I sit on a little stool to do the front feet.

Would click and treat work for Sonny to keep his foot on something?

A sun umbrella stand is what I use - just a concrete base with a metal piple sticking up.

I put a small plastic bottle upside down on the metal pipe so it's comfy for the horse to put her foot on it.

Finally got smart and use soaking boots when it is dry so the job is quick and easy.

misstux

Linda Cowles, a well respected trimmer here in California, uses a stool. I can't seem to get the hang of it.

Hertha

I sit on the stool and lay the horse's front foot on my knee. The main skill I needed was to strengthen my left hand to do the rasping on the right foot. I remember it being really hard at first, but now it's okay.

I do both the back feet bottoms from the horse's left side, so I can use my right hand for both, which is handy.

Clarissa

It was easier this time to let 3 weeks go by without thinking about trimming his feet. I have been too busy with other things & only actually lifted them twice during the last 3wks.

The wet season has passed & the ground is starting to harden already & it is noticeable by the way Sonny's feet are looking this time. However the bars under his feet are still looking ok but there was nothing to create a bullnose roll with this time.

I rode him today & he wore his boots. I think his soles MAY be thickening a little because his heel bulbs are not quite as deep as they have been. that means the bones are moving upward through the capsule. That can only happen when the thickening soles push the bones upward back to their proper position.

Chablis

They are looking heaps better, Clarissa. Well done.

Hertha

They are looking pretty good. With winter coming I'm going 1.5-2 weeks rather than weekly.

Do the boots cause any problem with rubbing/knocking the inside of the other foot as it comes through?

Clarissa

Clarissa

Well it's been almost 6wks since Sonny's last trim. 3 wks ago on the morning I had planned to do his feet again, my back decided to give out for no good reason which left me unable to walk for over a week. I had forgotten just how bad the pain could be!! Then I have had to just wait for it to strengthen up again to the point where it only hurts not too much when I bend over to check his feet.

So here we are today, having done his front feet. They are done a bit roughly but good enough. I will be very sore now for several days so it will be a week before I can do his back feet then another week before I can do Jude & Cassie's feet. Theirs will be really long & split but I have no choice in the matter. I often wonder how I will get on when I finally can't do them anymore myself.

Anyway here are some photos from today.

His feet got pretty chipped around the edges this last week with a combo of long toes & dry weather on top of very wet weather as happens during the change over from summer to dry winter.

It is clear to see there is some sole developing now & about 1/8th inch of collateral groove now at the tip of the frog which is great (about the same as last trim), although the bars dissappeared again once the ground started to firm up.

The rings show where I started giving Sonny the Kohnke's Own minerals. I am hoping the horn from there up will be much more durable. I did see a change last time I used that product. He's also had 2 changes of feed type too in the last 8wks.

I've left his heels a bit long because from now on through the rest of the year, the hard ground & dry grass gets very slippery & he seems to need the traction. Also he always seems to wear his toes down or is it that the heels don't get worn down?!

Unfortunately there is still no concavity.

I'm keeping the toes well backed up until the splaying grows out then I will create more of a roll rather than a straight down rasp. It's important that his toes aren't allowed to splay too much. You can see from how bad they got after just on 6wks, that if I let the toes splay forward there would be lots of extra problems to sort out.

He is still quite tender footed. I honestly can't ever see him being sound on gravel. It's not that big a deal, except that the new easy boots are size 1's & his feet are expanding again & they hardly fit even straight after a trim. All that BS & expense I went through to change the size 2's for size 1's may need to be repeated if I can't keep his feet small enough.

I also took some photos of his back after noticing a hole in the muscle of his L side wither. Not sure what's going on there as he hasn't been lame & it's not sore. I'll discuss it further in his thread in the L4 section.

Spitfire

New member here, but thought I could contribute. Clarissa, try a supplement called Barastoc Groom. I have a large horse on no pasture and in medium performance work (Nov/Elem dressage 5 days a week).

With 1.6kg of Prydes performance cubes per day, and ad lib grass hay, all I need to feed is 150g of Groom daily (plus Vit E, but with green grass you wouldn't need that). Works out at 60c/day. Without the cubes, or the work, I'd say you could get away with half to same amount. Makes them nice and shiny.

In my experience, Kohnke's products are by far the most expensive packets of plain salt ever. Fairly useless and very costly. Far better to feed Equilibrium (at a third the cost for the same nutritional value) or KER Nutrequin - again, on a performance horse it costs me 80c/day. For an unworked horse on grass (bighead grass), I could use 15-25g, which is about... 20-30c/day.

60g Nutrequin and 150g Groom are roughly equal in nutritional value, only with having to add Vit E to mine, the cost works out the same. In your case, you wouldn't need so much, maybe half? Feeding a quarter of KO supps is, in my frank and honest opinion, a bit like spitting in the wind.

Clarissa

Thanks for the info Spitfire. I'll see if it's available in this town next time I have to buy supplement. I only give 1/2 a dose of KO because of the other feed he gets which is a supplement type itself from Mitavite.

This fungal erosion that all of my horses have had this week caused me to notice just how thick Sonny's soles are becoming. I had to use the loop knife to clean out the collateral grooves where the new sole has pressed hard against the sides of the frogs.

Here are some photos showing the depth of sole now. Previously the sole was flat in line with the bottom of the frog. Now it is much higher up the frog. It hasn't made him any better on gravel yet though!

It's looking quite promising.

This one is the right front which was the gusher.

But look how much he wears his toes down. It's only 10days since I trimmed his feet & already there is a big discrepency between the wall height at the sides & the toe.

Clarissa

Wow! it's been 5 wks since I did Sonny's feet. amazing

That's mainly due thanks to my still weak back & shoulders. I struggled through today’s effort too & had to take short cuts. I sat on a milk crate with his foot on my lap but the rasping was quite hard that way. So it is a bit rough. I tried to do all work from underneath rather than finish the rasping from the top. But that method is not very easy with weak sore shoulders.

The weather has been either quite wet or drying right out so after the fungal infection (at end of May) got a lot better, they are now looking pockmarked again because we’ve just had 3 days of cold rain. There isn’t any black fungal lines this time so the betadine must have worked & I will just keep an eye on it. The fungal infection eats the frog away though which is already quite reduced from the first attack.

I have tried to do a bevel finish rather than just rasping off the excess which seems more agreeable to the professional trimmers who contribute to this forum. The trouble for me is that because Sonny’s feet grow so fast it isn’t long before I have to redo the bevel. With my body protesting so much at each trim it’s best I trim as few times as possible these days. So having to do a bevel is counter productive to my physical abilities but obviously best for the horse. I just have to find an acceptable middle ground.

Now that the angle change is almost grown out again I can start to reduce the height of his heels a bit. They seem to grow a lot & always end up a lot longer at trim time than the toe area by comparison. The toe still looks very long to me though

I want to rasp it all off!

I thought I would put the trimmed shot beside the untrimmed photo for best comparison.

No solar shots of trimmed RF because my arms were so sore from doing the trim they were shaking too much to use the camera.

I am including this larger photo because I am hoping that one of the professionals who contribute to this forum might help me better recognise what all the fiberous wall horn really is. I am frightened to rasp into it although it looks like it is excess wall. When I take a little bit off I rasp from the coloured wall into the uncoloured wall & can touch what I call the inner wall which rasps off like eraser shreds. But the sole connection is well back from outer edge. The fibres tend to run horizontal with the sole rather than appearing to come down out of the wall, giving the appearance of the toe slaying forward. If it is splayed toe it should be removed.

Newfman

Looking back at Sonny's rads., he has developing low non-articular ringbone (likely very uncomfortable, as proliferative periosteal reactions are) and he has certainly developed sidebone. Obvious distal descent and the hoof walls and coffin bone are still not parallel. The heels are too high, and tend to get forward, along with those toes.

I really think you might want to consider knocking those toes back and dropping those heels, as no doubt he is developing navicular issues by now as well.

Just an observation.

Clarissa

Thanks for pointing that out Dennis. I have been watching both the sidebone & ringbone conditions developing for about 18mths now. My thoughts are that in his case it is hereditary because I am ashamed to say Sonny has never done a hard day’s work in his life nor has he done any volume of work on hard surfaces.

I do feel that if I can get the sole to thicken up, that will lift the bones higher within the hoof capsule & those conditions won’t appear so bad. I believe they look worse than they are due to the low sole thickness.

I’m not too concerned about those conditions as about half the horses in the world have or will develop them & most work on happily. Yes it would be nice in a perfect world for Sonny to never develop those conditions.

Today I have rasped more off Sonny’s heels & toe. He is already sore from our day of frolicking in a deep wet sandy arena on Friday. He pulled up quite sore yesterday afternoon when I was having a refresher play session with him prior to getting back into work after this lengthy lay off due to my sore back & shoulders. But it looks like I will have to wait a little longer for his feet to get better as he got quite on his front end again by the end of an hour’s work. I don’t really understand why he got so sore but can’t think of any other reason. Perhaps the sand abraded his freshly trimmed feet.

Ok here are the photos after retrimming all 4feet today. I rasped the heels right to the level of the sole & made sure they were the same angle as the sole by laying the rasp from toe to heel & heel to heel. I’m not really happy about removing the wall bearing surface but I guess it’s just for a few days while it grows down again. Having always been told not to rasp into the inner wall or to leave the horse walking on it’s sole, I hope I haven’t lamed him again.

I did this very thing almost 2 yrs ago exactly & he was very lame for days, although he did also choose that day to walk into a pile of bouganvillea prunings which left him with several large thorns in his soles. At that time I did also take off a bit of sole, starting the bevel 1/3 the distance to the frog tip as per instructions to rocker the toe. It was after that trim that I began to wonder if he had thin soles because I didn’t remove much thickness of sole at the toe to create the beginning of the rocker, but I did remove all wall bearing surface.

So he was walking on his soles until the walls grew down again. I was supposed to keep rasping at that angle for several trim cycles until his toe angle changed to much steeper. But it took weeks for him to get over the first trim & I told the guy I wasn’t prepared to keep doing that. He had to have bute for a week & his feet were very hot for ages. That’s when I asked Leah to help me with something a bit less invasive than the rocker trim.

Just before xmas last year I was scolded mercilessly in my other thread about Sonny’s feet for rasping away too much wall to create the mega mustang roll using TFTT which thins the wall at the bearing edge. I understand that, however it is only for a few days until the wall grows a bit. Now I hope I’ve done the right thing rasping it all off again!

I want to know why there is a difference between TFTT which thins the wall at the bearing edge or doing a bevel trim that removes all the wall & leaves the sole as the only bearing surface!! The only thing that will make me feel better about it is if the wall I removed is not the real bearing edge. I mean if the wall is bending out just above ground level creating a false bearing edge.

I didn’t search into the sole by cutting it away where it overlaps the connection with the wall to see if it has overgrown the real white line etc. The xrays do show a considerable thickness at the front of the toe. I have added 2 photos at the end to show close-ups of the sole wall connection.

I've added this pairing to show more close up what the colouring & texture of the wall layers are. I'm thinking the white line is under & immediately in front of that very dark line where the sole overlaps. The whitest layer is the inner wall & the dark grey layer is the outer wall. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

It's mostly that I'm not used to seeing the natural sole edge where it connects to the wall because it is usually trimmed or rasped away flat so it never develops that rolled looking edge.

Newfman

Better. That will allow his dorsal hoof wall to start growing down, parallel to his coffin bone. that is about 4 to 5 months, looking at the walls in the photo.

You can lightly round off the upper edge of the bevel if you want, it will look nicer. This is just to round it a little, don't remove a lot of wall.

I would touch up the bars so they make a nice slope from sole to heel.

Rasp a nice bevel on the chipped/ cracked quarters. but leave a bout 1/2 of the wall thickness. Just doing the outside a little to keep them from continuing to chip and crack.

Do this every four weeks. Until that dorsal hoof wall really starts to grow in with good connection, you won't get rid of the distal descent. With out reversal of distal descent, you won't have concavity, hence thick soles.

Protect his feet from rocky trail rides, and allow plenty of exercise, providing comfort as necessary. This is going to put him back on his heels so don't be surprised if his frogs get a bit sore, and the caudal region of his front feet. Boots and pads for exercise would help that, or dental impression clay, lightly packed in the collateral grooves, along with boots.

Could be the camera angle, but that left hind outside (lateral ) heel looks off. Can you take a photo of that, held up and looking heel to toe, and flat across the sole? Just making sure that heel isn't sheered.

Nice Job.

Dennis

Kim Cassidy

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I see a horse who is constantly trying to grow wall and heel to RAISE his coffin bone and sensitive structures off the ground.

Can't you see the distal border of the coffin bone [b]protruding[b] out of the sole? Now he is walking directly on it. You already have a crenna in one foot, the "fibrous" material you were asking about is called a stretched WL from previously inflammed laminae

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. I know you mean well but I believe I've watched your horse be lame for a year now. That is not transition that is just plain harm being done to your horse.

LeSigh.

calatar

Clarissa I know you are trying to do what is best for Sonny.

I am still new to this (been trimming mine full time a little over a year, learning about several years before that) but if I trimmed either of my horses that short they would be sore.

I'll leave the specifics to the pros and I do hope Sonny gets more comfy soon.

Newfman

I really can't understand why people don't see they are OVERTRIMMING their horses feet. Your horse is sore and yet you are trimming more?

She needs to trim this way, due to a lack of proper or timely trimming in the horses past. Once the dorsal hoof wall grows down fully attached, she will reduce the trimming agressiveness and allow the wall to share the load with the sole. She needs to protect the sole, as needed, in the interim.

I see a horse who is constantly trying to grow wall and heel to RAISE his coffin bone and sensitive structures off the ground.

Actually, regardless of "his coffin bone and sensitive structures", he is constantly going to grow wall and heel. Just a weird thing they do. Can't explain it, and don't have a reference for it, it just happens.

Can't you see the distal border of the coffin bone [b]protruding[b] out of the sole?

No.

Now he is walking directly on it. You already have a crenna in one foot, the "fibrous" material you were asking about is called a stretched WL from previously inflammed laminae

If you are referring to that little hole at the sole wall junction, which sonny had long ago, and certainly before this trim, it may be a tiny keratoma, not the trim.
White line is lamina, though keratinized. This trim, stops the WL stretching process, and that is what is going to help. that and time.

Please learn more about anatomy before you follow internet advice. I know you mean well but I believe I've watched your horse be lame for a year now. That is not transition that is just plain harm being done to your horse.

"Can't you see the distal border of the coffin bone [b]protruding[b] out of the sole?"

Distal...as in distant. Refers to the direction of or the end of. e.g. the tip of the coffin bone in this case.

Dorsal... is the front wall of the coffin bone.

In order for this to happen, the coffin bone would have to rotate and invert, to protrude through the sole. None of which is happening.

"Please learn more about anatomy before you". . . correct(?) internet advice.

LeSigh

Clarissa

RAD (LeSigh) is that your name or a statement of your feelings towards this forum? wrote:

Clarissa

Kim Cassidy

I'm sorry Clarissa about your financial losses. All across our country people are feeling the same pinch.

But that is none of my business, I am worried about your horses feet and am responding in regards to that.

I am not "on your back" you are posting in a public forum about a lame horse who has been lame for a long time. Much of due to its hoofcare. You have tried many different options, when will you just make him more comfortable by shoeing him?

I hope he gets more comfortable, good luck and hope things turn around for you both soon.

PasoBaby_CarolU

RAD has been placed in Moderation. Her last post can't be read by any forum members because of this. It needs to be edited before I'll release it, or any future posts from moderation. I would like to suggest that RAD re-read the rules of this forum about rudeness, flaming, and fighting, since she is not reading her PMs.

Clarissa

Y’know RAD you actually make some sense when you get off your high horse.

Ok… about Sonny’s landing style. He actually has always had a resonable heel first landing, either that or flat. Occasionally he has had a toe first landing but never exaggerated. When I started training him for barrel racing I noticed he dug his toes in to take off & he still does. He will also use the sides of all feet on occasion for tight turns. My mare Jude often runs along the side of the hill using the sides of her hooves to grip the ground. I have just watched the videos linked in prior posts along with a heap of others & in many & varied disciplines the horses are landing in all ways. When Sonny is cavorting around the paddock he often digs his toes in to get going fast.

I do honestly believe horses are capable of using all surfaces of their feet just like we do. Regarding what Appell said about the notion that human foot fall should be heel first, but that often a toe first landing is achieved.

So why should the horses be any different? Nature must allow the horse to land any way it wants, but not the same way all the time. People force the horse to land a certain way for hours on end in practise sessions which is not natural. That would cause problems like are mentioned regarding toe first landing.

Back to Sonny for a moment. When he is slightly sore footed he actually lands very nicely since he is trying to spread his weight 50/50, he has a beautifully soft footfall with lots of stifle & hock action & he is careful about how he places his feet. I made use of mild soreness by getting him to do a few circles & clicked him when he was going very nicely in that better balanced way. I made sure the surface of the roundpen was not too hard for him by running around it barefoot myself. So if I can do it he can too for a short while! His problem is that he has never bothered about how he moves so it is all wrong. It takes pain to cause him to take care to move better & put thought into it!

Here are some quick videos I took today.

The one on left is him doing those few laps in the roundpen. He is not as sore today as yesterday so already he is casual in how he trots.
The one on the right is the ground at my place which is combo soil in video & soft black soil that goes hard & dusty in dry season.

The one on left is his heels. The one on the right is Sonny walking along as I film from behind, diagonally & from infront.

Here is a video from late last year Sonny doing laps also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXUweahkRJY

& many more here
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about3330.html

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about2789.html

He is still the tiniest bit sore today but his feet are no extra heat than usual. He is sore on the sharp gravel road outside my house. His hooves do compress when he puts full weight on a foot so the bevel almost disappears. I think I should modify the shape of the bevel next trim. I have left the sharp edge of the bevel so I can see what is happening as it grows or wears out. I will round it off a little in a few days when I know how fast his feet are growing now.

I really would like to start riding again so I will test him in boots over the weekend. I have the opportunity to use the sand arena again this coming week which I would like to do.

Newfman

I didn't know you could do that here and with photobucket. Interesting.

Sonny is looking pretty good these days. Enjoy the ride.

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

I'm not on a high horse, I'm just frustrated at the advice people are given and what the horses are being put thru. Sorry if it comes across as high handed.

I see a horse that is still lame. Based on my experiences you will not ever get that toe to grow in tighter while your horse is in a cortisol episode. Which is brought on by 24/7 pain and too much cortisol. You end up in a spiral. He would prefer to canter but then drops his head way down and trots. He is trotting around you because you have asked him to and he cares for what you want. Look at his eye in the first video, really step back objectively and look at it. Look how he is throwing his head forward to take weight off his feet.

I find it a painful video to watch.

You have gotten advice from many different people and have tried a variety of things. IME, notice I'm covering my butt, IME, making a horse sore with a trim creates a laminitic attack, mild, moderate or severe that all depends, this means that up in the sensitive laminae you have inflammation, which means the wall deviates in growth. IME, you are stuck in a loop that you can't get out of. Unless you do something to protect the bottom of the foot. If skill, knowledge and finance dictates that you can't put the correct shoeing package on your horse, you need to let him grow wall and allow his feet to look "ugly"

Allow him to grow the protection he needs. Put down the rasp, ignore the flares and video your horse for a short time every day. When he becomes SOUND that is where his foot wants to be. Let it be ugly, who cares. Let your hair down, embrace imperfections and let your horses feet be what they want

Good Luck.

appellativo

I really love the 'That's my horse' OTTB videos because pads in cast are used to support and protect the bottoms of the feet until the horse can grow enough down to support himself. If you haven't watched those yet, I highly recommend.

Newfman

appellativo

You know I heard Leah talk a lot about cortisol and how that supposedly perpetuates problems...but she never revealed sources for her statements. If anybody knows of studies, references, etc. I'd like to read up on that....

Newfman

I think Carol has the skinny on Cortisol, if memory serves. I also think it is given a little too much credit.

Kim Cassidy

Erin,

Leah got the Cortisol stuff from Ruth and I. I don't have the time to go into all the years of research and anectdotal data that has brought us to this conclusion.

I can guarantee you that once you stop the pain cycle within a week the differences in the edema pockets and neck crests is amazing. If you want more info do what we did and research Pain/Stress Cortisol, Insulin, Cell Receptors and you will find lots of stuff.

As for pain, I kept saying that Clarissa's horses soles are reflecting severe trauma. I've copied her photos to my computer and added some arrows and circles to show what I'm talking about.

Shiny, Waxy Sole is stressed sole, traumatized sole and that is exactly what I see in her June photos.

First two pix are of the same image, I just used arrows to point it out in the first and circled it in the second. THAT is trauma from the distal border of the coffin bone. It is pushing on the sole and creating a ridge. Imagine taking a really really heavy chest and trying to push it across a hardwood floor while it sits on a heavy area rug. Picture what happens directly in front of chest as it is pushing... it builds a ridge, a bubble, if you will of carpet. That is what the coffin bone is doing to Sonny's soles in those photos. Now try and imagine WHY he wants all that wall and heel he wants that ridge to go away. I might keep after the heels but I sure as heck wouldn't be dumping him on his solar surface like that.

This is another pix of the same foot but in an oblique view.

Can you all see it. Can you see how it is hurting.

This pain will cause a spiraling of cortisol release. Which shuts off the Insulin receptors which means more cortisol will be released, which means more build up of insulin, which means more cortisol will be relased... aaaack do you get it now

Okay have to rest my elbow a bit.

Clarissa

Well I have to say I have been asking that question for about a year now!

Also if I trim that lump off level with the sole there is blood in there. Not bad but definately pink. Blue Flame was right in saying it was a reflection of the P3 inside.

His feet aren't usually hot but in general he has more heat in his body & feet, so when I feel his & they are a tiny bit hotter, I just put it down to his temp being marginally higher than the others. But perhaps he has been having more pain than I thought. Yes I know he has some pain in his feet. They are soft.

I guess you know that I have just washed & scrubbed his feet for the photos & that they aren't shiny like that normally. I will look at them tomorrow to see just how waxy they are normally. I rarely clean them as the packed mud is supposed to help develop concavity.....apparently!?

Chablis

Hey Clarissa, was Sonny born locally to you? Or did he come for a drier climate than where you live?

I was just wandering if he has always had hoof problems? My memories a big foggy (sorry) so apologises if you have already advised.

Apart from that, I just wanted to let you know that I admire you for your persistence in trying to find the right answers to help Sonny - I know what it is like to not have any decent farriers/trimmers nearby.

Clarissa

Clarissa

After riding Sonny on Sunday I decided to leave his boots on. It had only been a week since I retrimmed his feet & took the latest photos, but I could already see that the heels were growing faster than the toes (or not being worn down as quickly) but knew it wouldn't show up well enough in a photo.

So I figured it might be a good test to see how his feet would behave while being protected by boots.

here are some photos I took this afternoon after they were on continuously for 4 days. They were dry until today but still it didn't do his frogs very much good unfortunately. Also only photos of 1 hoof came out well enough to use here. And below it is a shot of the other hind after retrimming 10days ago.

There has definately been even growth all around the hoof frombeing booted although the heels do look a bit longer, but that is the heel growth that happened in the first week after trim. There is now a slight ridge around the whole hoof but I will have to bevel the toe some more to shorten it a little because his hooves are a tad too big for his boots. His hooves are not going fully forward into the boot toe because of their angle. They set back onto the heel straps which then press against the backs of his frogs, flattening them out which is not good since I am trying to regrow the frogs too.

I may give them a few days to breathe then put the boots on again for 2-3 days at a time for a few weeks to see how they grow.

Newfman

There is a lot of moisture that builds up in boots. I'm not sure that i would reccomend this course. Up to you though, that is just my opinion. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Maybe that is where I am confused.

Kim Cassidy

Waaaaah I typed up a really good long reply and the internet ate it.... NOOOOOOOOOOO

Anyhoo, trying again.

I think you are a great sport for putting up photos on a continuing basis, especially given all the picking apart

Your photos show exactly what I mean by an overworked frog. Look how the oblique photo shows that the frog is the highest point of the foot, or if it is on the ground the first thing to touch and to be the majority of weightbearing. The frog is not meant to serve that role, so it becomes overly large. Have you ever seen those horses who have a martingale used on them incorrectly, for years? The top side of their neck, near the withers becomes Ewe Necked. The underside develops this overly large muscling. It isn't natural and it isn't correct, that is what Sonny's frog looks like in that photos (IMO of course).

Also look at how thin his soles are, no depth at the apex of the frog at all. Imagine how pinched the corium is. Soft ground might not be a problem, but imagine that sole stepping on a rock, or walking on asphalt or hard ground. Yikes.

He is probably growing the heel first to protect the frog, digital cushion and the bar laminae. Next will come the other wall growth. It looks sooo much better than the June pix.

I'm glad you gave him boots, despite all that moisture. Don't worry it doesn't create thrush, only wet stinky frog. If you have any medicated foot powder that would help keep things dry in the boot. When I've used boots on founders I've always brought them into a stall for a few hours to give their feet a break from the boots, not sure if you can do that or not.

Those photos show how much he needs to develop a rim shoe with his walls. You know you could always try the Equicast, you would be able to do that, it just takes practice but it would give him relief!

Now just hide your rasp from yourself so you don't trim him for awhile

Clarissa

Clarissa

Kim Cassidy

Hey Clarissa:

I was looking at pix of Sonny's feet in your Photobucket album. I'm wondering if you recall how he was moving in May? His feet looked good in those photos, do you remember?

Thanks

Newfman

Wear would play a big part, but the bevel in this particular case, where you are taking it back to the white line, is designed to keep the hoof wall out of play, and unleveraged while allowing the toe flare to grow out.
That would certainly make it appear as though the toe is not growing as fast as well.

If he doesn't need boots, I still recommed you not use them. The soles need to dry and harden. Extended long term use will soften the soles. It works like hoof dressings, and interferes with the horses natural mechanism of controlling moisture in his soles. Just my two cents worth, but you are certainly welcoe to experiment on your own horse.

You can drill a hole in the bottom of the boot, so it can exchange air with the outside. Maybe that would work. (?) Epona's are basically a boot sole with a hole in them attached to the bottom of the hoof. Think of them as sandals for horses

So, you could experiment with a hole saw. It's an idea anyways.

4 week timmings.

Cheers.

D

Clarissa

I see where you are coming from Newf.

The vet who did the xrays in January told me they make a brew that is for sole hardening. Same recipe as the propietry brands but a fraction of the price. It's got formalin in it I think or um something else

. That sort of stuff has been discussed on this forum before.

I keep forgetting to ask if that might help Sonny for the transition period.

Newfman

It could. I have seen on the Vet forum a 1:1 of formalin and 7%iodine. Painted on the sole only. What is the weather, and ground like there? If it is dry, then he should dry up the soles by himself. Grass has moisture in it, so that can add moisture. The thicker and greener, the more moisture. Try not to drive yourself nuts by doing too much.

What is your goal or objective? Maybe that should be addressed. I just want to be sure that I'm not influencing you away or around what it is you are ultimately looking to accomplish.

Newfman

Pulling this out of the burning embers that belays a previous thread. . .

Clarissa

Here are shots from the latest trim. Actually I had to reset the bevel & then adjust the heels to suit the new toe wall depth 2.5wks ago because I couldn’t fit his feet into his boots. That happened again 3days ago so I nipped off the extra toe length & adjusted the heel height. It is quite obvious that he wears down his toes long before the heels, hence the heels always end up looking too high after a few days.

I was going to round off the bevel edge with my newly sharpened rasp but on the 3rd swipe & cut myself quite badly & bled like a stuck pig. So that was that for today! I will do it in a few days when I have time again.

I can’t see much difference in the front feet over the last couple of trims but I guess it needs a few more months yet. However his back feet are almost back to how they were before I started the barefoot/wild horse/mustang trim…whatever you want to call it!

The growth ring showing the beginning of feeding the sunflower seed is very obvious & the new hoof is quite hot. I just hope all this effort to fix his feet is not going to be undone by a need to grow out the whole hoof plagued by laminitis. People say they haven’t had any problems but I am concerned about the heat. There are signs the new hoof is tighter & rougher than the old hoof too.

On the very edge of his LH toe you can see polished rounding where he is wearing it naturally. He drags his back toes a little in jog & slower trot. So I guess that means I need to bevel the toe more regularly so that point is removed. The sole shot of the LH below really shows how much toe could be removed to create the bevel shape. However when I take half the thickness away it allows the softer wall behind it to get worn off too easily. Then the toe wall is level with the sole again which is not the desired outcome at this stage. A similar thing happens with the front feet.

RickB.

RickB.

Clarissa

If a moderated member would like ME to read their post on this thread asap they can email me via my blog address below.

I sat up an extra 2hrs last night waiting for Ricks posts to be cleared but had to go to bed in the end. I have checked back several times today but still no words of wisdom to read.

Clarissa

Rick has sent me his posts. I see his point just like I see the opinions of the others who contribute. His are rather opposite to what others offer.

At some point we (all who are offering options here) will strike upon the right course of action & it may well be a combination. It just needs to be talked through & I put it into action as best I can.

In my above post containing photos where I said I cut myself, it was mostly due to my back & shoulders being so weak I was shaking & couldn't hold the rasp properly so was forced to stop until another day. Of course Rick doesn't know the full story so his solution was a bit off

I am hoping to get back to Sonny's feet in a few days. Today I have had to go teach 2 horses to float load & move them from an unsuitable paddock. That will set me back a few days unfortunately as I had to over use my left arm (& back). I would have preferred to spend that physical capacity on my own horses but someone has to do these things or those horses would have suffered too. I am still involved in rescuing horses.

Sonny is certainly not lame ATM as today like many other days, he & my other horses have spent much time screaming around the paddocks at flat gallop just for fun. Knowing him, if he was sore he would not do that. It is now the dry season here & the land is hard, rough & dry.

I have spoken to several people about the sunflower seed & none have had laminitis issues so I just don't know. Maybe I'm worrying over nothing. Perhaps the fact that the omega6 in the oil SFS is more inflamatory & does cause warmer hooves, is nothing to worry about...just a new state of being.

Chablis

My horses haven't had any problems with being fed black sunflower seeds - I do limit them to one cup a day per horse though.

Clarissa

I have re-read several posts going back 3 mths, in particular those of Newf.

I have decided to modify the angle of sole plane by lowering the heels a tad & taking the smallest off the length of toe by re-dressing the bevel. I believe I have succeeded with his back feet now. They are almost back to what they looked like before I started the Strasser trim method 5.5yrs ago except they were more concave with more wall height above the sole & the bars were well defined & shapely. It was that shape that I was told was wrong & to correct it, I had to remove all that ‘wall excess & heel height’!

It is raining here now & for the next day or so apparently so I decided to take advantage of the soft soil & retrim his feet to see if walls will grow evenly all around the hoof including the toe. Having soft footing will not bother the frogs while they are(perhaps) still too close to the ground.

Here are the shots from today's HQ trim which I didn't get to do last week. I have left 3/16th inch (about 5ml) wall height above sole all round on the hinds.

I also re-set the heel height of the fronts. The fronts have wall height around most of the sole of about 1/8th inch (3.5ml). Not enough for long term but good for now.

If I keep removing the regrowth at the heels only will that cause more wall depth at the toe? Or am I just creating a heel problem because the heel bulbs are always in contact with the ground? I keep asking myself why the heels appear to grow so fast. The saying “the hoof will grow what it most needs” keeps springing to mind. As Kim as says “the hoof is trying to get the frogs up off the ground by growing heel height.” The heels do actually grow because you can see the difference in the length of the heels from the last trim to today’s photos. Whereas the toes have not changed in depth but have changed in length.

Anyway for the first time in a long time all 4feet are completely trimmed on the same day! Even if I did end up taking the last of the photos by flash! That's got to be progress?....of sorts?

Edited to add:- I know there is a difference of opinion regarding methods. I always said I should follow a method for 2 complete growth cycles to see if it will be effective for Sonny. I did that with Leah's method also. When it was clear that the soles were still thin or getting thinner, I needed to test a different method. I am doing that & now am half way through because the hoof that emerged from the coronet band at xmas has reached the ground. I scribed a mark into the horn to be sure I could tell when it reached the ground.

There has been good growth on the back feet but only an xray will tell if there is sole thickness improvement. The fronts are a long way from good but perhaps a little improvement is showing. I will not get more rads before xmas coming. If they show no improvement I will be wanting to test another method. That is what any farrier would do. They would have their own preferred method & ideas & use them untill there was good improvement or not. If not, they would do something different.

Clarissa

Well I really did try very hard to leave Sonny’s feet a full 6wks before the next trim. But they started getting small splits & cracks & then today when I cleaned them I got a really big shock.

There was blood in the stretched layers in front of the white line.

All 4 feet have blood in varying degrees. I’m not sure what’s causing it. The toes are flaring a lot now because I am leaving a longer interval between trims which might be causing tearing of the laminae. Or it could be from the heat that developed in his feet when I started feeding the sunflower seed which has now grown to the ground. In any case it’s not a good look! This has never happened before.

He has been depressed a bit lately & today’s photo of him tells a story.

I have taken a lot of photos because some people have said I was taking too much height of wall off above the sole & I want to show that is not the case. The wall never grows down past the sole but rather it just flares outward. I am unable to get his soles up off the ground because the walls never grow proud of the sole around the front quarters. The back feet are not too bad & will grow down a bit relieving the sole of all weight bearing responsibility. But the fronts just don’t seem to have what’s needed to grow past the sole. So if I leave them a bit too long they just flare out level with the ground instead of creating a weight bearing ridge around the sole.

I trimmed all feet on 1st Aug & again on 6th Aug & it was desperately needed again on 1st Sep. They are really growing fast these days although wearing off just as fast too. I am trying very hard to follow the advice offered by the farriers who help on this forum. But not sure leaving so long between trims has been a good thing. I have lowered the heels somewhat which has put the toes at a greater angle making them flare forward even more. Also there is now sideways flare too.

I can no longer ride Sonny because his feet don't fit into his boots now. I'm not really happy about the direction his feet are taking now.

RickB.

Blue Flame

RickB,

Hoping I am not hijacking Clarissa's thread here but it's a genuine question . . .

Your post above seems to be using the widest part of the hoof as a reference point - i.e. a landmark.

How does the widest part of the hoof relate to the position of the internal structures? i.e. does it indicate the rearmost part of the wings of the P3 or something else?

I'm off to read the link you provided.

RickB.

Blue Flame

Thank you - so that's the P2/P3 joint then?

Again, not meaning to hijack the thread . . . does that hold true for contracted feet as well?

karmikacres

You also have soft tissue issues. I see a pretty big arch in the coronary band, and your frogs have very little mass to them - they are wide, but incredibly thin. I agree with Rick, not a big fan of the roll, it negates wall function. Some stimulation to the cartilage in the back half of the foot would be a good start, I have had good success with pad walking or sand walking. I also see infection at the toe in several pictures, again indicating the back half of the foot is not doing its job very well.

Remember, your heels need to be trimmed in reference to a healthy frog, trimming to that pancake may result in caudally rotating your structures. You need healthy cartilage to bring those heels back, lowering them by trimming is only making things worse at this point.

They mention pillars in that trim that Rick presented, which I never see in healthy normal length toes. I see them laid down to compensate for toes that are not healthy or too short. IIRC, the mustang study was done in the spring after the horses had been digging for forage all winter, thus the very short toes with big rolls and pillars.

Mike

appellativo

just out of curiosity in the study mentioned above...were the hind feet assessed as well (the ones not used for digging?)

RickB.

RickB.

appellativo

I found it helpful in mapping the foot to make a plaster casting of the foot and take it home and do the mapping for practice.

fill a pie tin halfway with modeling clay, have horse step in it. Then fill the tin the rest of the way with plaster of paris; let dry, pop it out. careful, they will break.

Clarissa

Rick wrote:-
I have never been a fan of the type of roll you are putting on his feet because I have not seen good consistent results. I think you would be better served if you first, using hoof landmarks, mapped out his feet so you know where +/- the various hoof structures can be found, and so you can see that there is much too much hoof in front of the widest part of the hoof. IMO, your goal should be to bring the hoof into a minimum of a 50:50 ratio of the amount of hoof from the Widest Part of the hoof to the rear most weight bearing structure and from the Widest Part of the Foot forward to the Point of Breakover. And a 60:40 ratio (with the 60 being from the WPoF to the Rearm ost WB Structure

That’s all well & good but there needs to be ‘meat’ to rasp off before any measurement method will work. You’re assuming I don’t know where the landmarks are! Rick if there was enough ‘meat’ to work with I would not have hooves with long toes & underrun heels.

Lowering the heels is what Kim & others have told me to do. However my experience is that when I lower the heels, it presses the frogs flatter & also the toe runs forward even more.

This is why I was leaving him some heel last year which no one liked but at least he had frogs & his toes weren’t run forward like now. There is no point saying to leave the walls to grow down past the sole because they don’t do that. The back quarters do grow down past the sole to form a bit of support, but around the front half, once the wall gets to ground level it turns & grows parallel with the ground. Wasn’t always so, but is the norm now. The walls are soft obviously, otherwise the toe wouldn’t wear off as easily as it does.

After allowing the Strasser trim to grow out, I did try to follow one trim method. I can’t remember who it was now (well I can, but I don’t want to say who it was). But there were measurements taken & the toe bevel was started from underneath & halfway back to the frog to create measurements like Rick is talking about in the website he gave. But all I succeeded in doing was rasping away the connection between Sonny’s very thin soles & the then thin walls & left him so lame he couldn’t walk for days. At that time I had no idea his soles were so thin. It was always a problem with the Strasser trim. I would be told to take more off the sole & I would say I already took too much off & found pink.

Rasping the toe wall back to a certain measurement is playing with fire as there is not enough ‘meat’ due to only having aprox 9mm soles. I know if I have rasped too close to the inner walls & whiteline because Sonny tells me it hurts him. When I was following Leah’s trim method I had steeper toes but I was always getting within a hair’s breadth of too much taken off the toe & he might sometimes be sore for a day after trimming. You can look at those photos in the other thread from last year to see what is too much to take off at the toe. I was also told that taking that much off was thinning the walls too much at the ground contact point & weakening that area, so I stopped doing the mustang roll & made the bevel instead. The bevel does grow out very quickly & has to be reset every 2wks.

I’m sure the method Rick gave would work to steepen the toe angle if there was good sole thickness to play with. However I don’t have that luxury. Neither do I have frogs that are full enough to use as a guide to finished wall height. I try to leave what I can around the front of the hoof but what I do leave is rapidly worn off within a day of the trim which puts him back on his soles again & encourages the toe growth to run forward instead of growing down which would lift the sole off the ground.

I feel leaving some heel height would give the frog some space to grow into because it is being continually pounded flat atm. Taking even more off the heels will only serve to bruise the frog tissue more & make the toe even further elongated. See the last 3 or 4 sets of photos taken over the last 4mths to see the toe wall get more run out as I have reduced the heel height. I understand that leaving more heel height seems to be the wrong thing to do but at least he had some wall/ground connection back then. After the trim his frogs are on the ground at the heels anyway. There’s no point in forcing them to bear even more weight as reducing the heel height seems to be causing them to subside now.

I know that putting some sort of shoe on would ‘solve’ the apparent issues instantly & temporarily, but what would happen when it was time to take them off again? Will shoes create stronger walls, or thicker soles, or longer walls that share the load with the sole, or permanently thicker frogs, or concave soles, or set the widest part of the hoof in the right place across the center of the hoof, etc, etc. People say to use shoes but I haven’t seen the proof that Sonny’s feet will be permanently better off after.

It’s like when Kim asks for proof about claims people make in their posts. Well I’m asking the same. Not that I can afford shoes right now, but if I could see for sure that the investment would eventually create sound bare feet I would work towards shoeing him for a period of time.

Chablis

You would also need an excellent farrier for those shoes, Clarissa and I know that is a huge part of your current problem ie you can't get a decent farrier to travel that distance.

When you left Sonny with some more heel - which you said resulted in better frogs & shorter toes - was he sound? Or was he still sore?

jokersmama

I feel for you I do. I ended up having to haul Pistol to a farrier, the only one in my area I trusted and came vet recommended wouldn't travel as far as my house so I hauled Pistol to him.

I think shoes would help your wonderful Sonny. If you do a IM and pad also that will help with his thin soles. I'm hoping to get pistol back to bare after a few resets but if he is one that just can't handle it for whatever reason I will keep him shod.

I felt horrible and nearly burst out in tears when he went running around faster than he has in months in his new shoes. I felt horrible for keeping that from him and he is still having SO much FUN running as fast as he can go just because he can and it doesn't hurt. His whole attitude and posture changed also.

We owe it to them to do whatever it takes, and even though we feel we are doing the best we can, sometimes it just isn't enough, I found that out first hand...

Good luck with your boy

RickB.

Clarissa

I just started to upload this post when the forum went down so Rick’s post has overlapped with this one because I couldn’t see his post for a while. Now that I have read it I have added 2 paragraphs at the beginning of this post.

Rick it was both Dennis & Kim who said I was rasping the toes too thin at the bearing edge.
Even just pressing with my fingers causes pain reflex. I put my thumb under the heel platform & my index finger over his heel buttress & squeeze & on most of them I get a pain reflex. If I repeat that squeeze at the ends of the collateral grooves I can also get a pain response. Also I know his hooves are soft because I can squeeze them between my knees & distort the shape a little. Also I can cut the horn with my knife & I’m sure it’s nowhere near as sharp as a pro’s knife would be.

It's unfortunate Rick that you are over there & my horse is over here! I have personally recently seen the work of each of the 4 local barefoot trimmers & I am not impressed. They all seem to create ongoing income for themselves rather than properly fix the hoof & give proper between trim instructions for the owners to follow. I don't have the finances to foster that trim or business style. So unless I can afford a LOT more money per trim (aprox$100) then it's me doing the work. I am changing the method when I am shown a better way. I have said before & I repeat that I feel it's important to give a trimstyle 2 complete growth cycles to prove itself. Leah's method was great in that it created far better wall thickness & a generally better shaped hoof. Just have to find a way to get more sole thickness.

Chablis he was almost as sore then as he is now. He just had better shaped feet & they fitted into his boots nicely so I was able to ride him anywhere & he was happy. But that better shape was only the case when just observing the exterior hoof. It’s interesting to look at the xrays which don’t show P3 at an angle pointing down to the front even with slightly higher heels as they were at that time. A professional observer would expect to see P3 at a slight angle I’m sure, when they saw the higher heels. I know they are running under too much but I feel it is the toe pulling the heel forward.

Actually I think P3 could even be at a very slightly greater angle & still be within normal range. P3 is very flat in all respects. BF noted that there are growth lines showing the forward movement of horn from the back half of the sole to the front half of the sole. So my thinking is that I need to raise the heels a tad to give the sole & frog somewhere to fill into, then that horn will slowly be pushed forward, thickening the sole at the front & eventually raising the front of P3 back to a flatter plane.

I know that’s quite controversial thinking but I do tend to think a back to front solution thinking (in more ways than one!) is needed. Doing things the normal way so far hasn’t worked. If I allow the heel a tad more height & keep the toe as short as comfort will allow, that should cause the heels to not be pulled forward anymore & they should straighten up again.

I have decided to stop using the Kohnke’s minerals as I know for sure they cause faster hoof growth which in Sonny’s case is very soft. I will also get some hoof hardening stuff from the vet tomorrow. Hopefully that will stop the toe from wearing off so fast.

Kim Cassidy

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

If you can not use the barefoot trimmers, my suggestion would be to find a decent farrier and see if he wlll allow you to follow him around.

Your horse needs some shoes on the bottom of his feet, even if it is only for a few rotations. Read and reread Joker's post, it says it all. I too felt really bad for what I did to Finnegan in the pursuit of a Natural Lifestyle. But I wouldn't be here, if I hadn't gone there. So there ya go.

It really seems like you've tried everything and it still isn't working. You know enough about feet to express your desires to a farrier. Hopefully you can find one that will work with you.

If anything you will end up just learning more good stuff

Good Luck

RickB.

appellativo

I tend to agree (from what I've read, experienced, and intuitively know) with much of what Rick has said.

One thing that jumped out was the continued mention of his hoof wall being soft. Have you had a diet analysis done to see if he is deficient in something? How is his skin and coat quality?

You said he has 9mm of sole thickness according to xrays? While that is not as much as is ideal, it's not like he's about to penetrate the sole or anything. It seems to me that there is an issue of poor laminar connection that must be addressed. From what I've seen, I would think that padding the bottom of the foot is what is needed to build sole...either with shoes, pads and equithane, or with the epona method, or with pads in cast as is detailed in Pete's 'tools of the trade' video.

If what you were doing with Leah's trim yielded the best results of whatever you've tried up till now, I'd readopt that, and add the pads in cast to it. Within three months of that, (and incidentally, with the eponas it's the same time frame), much improvement has been had on other horses, so hopefully yours would be no exception. And, if you watch the vid and practice, you can do it yourself. The rough cost for materials for one casting would be around sixty bucks and last probably three weeks if your application is good.

My friend's horse was about to penetrate (she's always been shod but no additional solar support), and they went with shoes, equithane and pads and the horse is comfortable. She's built some sole thickness as well, and is no longer requiring pads etc. Although I am all for people learning the way to give a horse a healthy barefoot as being superior to using shoes as simply a crutch (no I know they're not a crutch in all cases, sometimes they are necessary given the horse's individual pathological condition), I'm at the point where I don't care how it's done, we need to have a bag of tricks to get the horse set up for bringing the hoof back to proper form and function. I've seen enough cases where it's been done with shoes (of different materials), pads, casts, glues that I'm really happy to see. I wouldn't worry about 'if I shoe, am I going to continue to need to shoe? A) who cares as long as the horse is comfortable and B) if I didn't make it clear before, actual hoof improvement is made with some of these methods, which would indicate a future lessening dependence on the shoes/pads in cast, etc. That is very encouraging.

We all sympathize with your situation and are praying/hoping for a good outcome eventually!

whudson

Clarissa, I just want to say. Last year I was so upset, my horse was so sore at the walk. I put shoes on...immediate relief...of course........I did one cycle...maybe 4 wks maybe 6 weeks. I then took shoes off and truly has been full forage ahead. I could see the real sole and felt I could work with it. My advice, give the boy relief....wait 4-6 wks and then restart with barefoot.

Clarissa

Rick, the rads are at the beginning of this thread. There are 2 threads, the first one from last year when I was doing Leah's trim method
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...OW_big_changes_now__about811.html
ended in a hail of conflicting argument. But both contain 100’s of dated photos such as you have found on these recent pages. At one point in this thread (page3or4 I think) I included a photo showing the timeline as it stood at that point (May2010 I think) because there were marks on his hoof that were easy to see from month to month. I define a growth cycle as the time it takes for new growth leaving the coronet band to arrive at the ground. It takes about 4wks for a diet or weather change to appear out of the coronet band & currently about a week under 4mths for that to then arrive at the ground. So all up that’s almost 5mths which is about normal so they aren’t growing too much faster. It just seems that way.

I did sleep on the statement I made in my previous post about raising the heels a tad to give the frogs & sole some where to grow into & then have that newly created sole pushed forward to the toe to raise the front of P3. In many respects that’s what I was doing during Leah’s trim method & the sole never thickened. I wasn’t thinking right so I have to say I was wrong to think that would help. However it is good to just air my thoughts because it is via the process of discussion that problems are resolved.

Whudson now that you have removed the shoes from your horse, is he sound? How long is it since he went bare again? I remember you saying the ground is really hard at certain times of year then really wet or muddy. Has he been barefoot again through those changes? Why was he sore in the first place? I can’t remember the name of the thread so I can go back & read it but I do remember you having issues & you tried boots. That’s the last I remember.

I got the iodine solution this morning. I had to rasp the toes a bit shorter to fit them into his boots, then applied the iodine to soles & sides of Sonny’s front feet. Then put boots with pads on. The main reason for the boots is to stop the stuff being worn off too quickly & also because the grass is moist in the mornings now from o’nite fog & rain. So thinking about what Rick said re iodine drying the horn, I hope wearing boots will help to hold a tiny bit of moisture that will be absorbed as well. I have a window of 3days before more good rain is expected, at which time there will be 3days before I can use this stuff again. So I’m hoping it will continue like that with applications being 3-4 days wk only. I don’t know how long to keep using it because the vet was out when I bought the iodine at his office. When I had the rads done in January he told me about using the iodine. He didn’t seem to have any concerns about it causing reduced rad quality in future, because he said I should us it then have another set of rads done 12mths later.

Chablis

Clarissa, you have had heaps of rain, haven't you? You live in a tropical area which Sonny is not a native of?

If shoes were to work (pardon my ignorance) wouldn't Sonny also show a reasonable improvement in boots? Both methods would get the hooves off the hard ground? Do you put pads in the boots?

Yet he doesn't seem to show much improvement when wearing boots either?

In my less than professional view, I wonder if there is something underlying all these problems which is why nothing (so far) seems to work? Whether it is environment, diet, infection, etc, I do not know but it just seems something is still being missed.

Clarissa

Chablis the boots didn’t work mostly due to management issues outweighing the very small improvements (which didn’t last anyway). Maybe long term 20/7 use would work in the end but my arms are too weak now to put the boots on every day.

Also the internal pad would need to be glued in place because it sits under the edge of the hoofwall raising that too, rather than just cushioning the sole. To cause the sole to concave the pad needs to be only under the sole therefore needs gluing in place in the center of the boot.

I have used the iodine stuff 4 days now & put his front boots on him each day for a few hours until it is dry(ish). Had 2days of rain which made things too wet. That gave my arms time to mend before the next round of dry days. I really struggle to get the boots on because they are so tight & my arms are so weak now.

I hope the iodine hardens his feet soon as I can’t keep doing the boots thing for long. Also he is hard on his boots & if he breaks one again or ruins it in some way that will be that.

I can’t afford to replace them now. To be honest I would rather keep them good for the occasional riding I do.

It’s frustrating that I can develop thicker walls but not thicker soles.

Come to think of it I haven’t actually seen any xrays of hooves where the practitioner started with thin soles & succeeded in creating thick soles. I have seen some xrays of horses with thin soles where the hoof was shod to ease discomfort but no later xrays showing success with permanent increase in sole thickness leading to becoming bare again. I did look at the one Kim suggested but she is keeping that horse shod so I wouldn’t call that the success I am hunting for.

Anyway I’ll do what I can with this iodine stuff for as long as my arms will allow.

Clarissa

I wrote the previous post 2 days ago in a word doc but didn't get chance to log in & post it until now. So thing have moved on somewhat.

After 2 days of rain today was nice & dry so I again could paint iodine on Sonny’s front feet & put his boots on. I noticed how uneven the LF had become in just the few days since last trim.

I have taken a few photos & I would like people's take on this. I can clearly see that the inside edge wall of this hoof (Left Front) is higher than the outer edge wall. (By outer & inner I mean the right & left sides of the hoof. I can’t remember what the pro’s call the sides…anterior & exterior?) Yet the toe is definitely worn down with a higher toe callous since the trim. If you look back to the last trim photos from week before last you can see the depth of the bevel & now it is only half that height at the toe. The inside hoof edge isn’t worn much at all but the outside edge is partly worn down with the height of wall above the sole remaining much as I made it at trim time. To me that means he is walking mostly on the outside edge of that hoof. That heel is also a bit sore when squeezed.

I notice on this hoof that the right side heel appears a tad longer than the left side heel but it is the camera which has slight fish eye lense appearance when the focal distance is very short. I didn't get the shot completely square on to the center of the heels.

I didn’t photograph the RF hoof as it is nowhere as bad.

I have deliberately stayed off his back to give his feet the best chance of improvement but I’m riding for the first time in 6mths on Wednesday & as usual he will wear his boots. It won’t be a long ride but certainly longer than if I had a chance to get him fit progressively. Sometimes when friends say they have a window of riding opportunity you just have to run with it!

It will be interesting to see how he pulls up after an hour ride over easy country.

Clarissa

I wanted to show the original photos that got me started down the track of documenting Sonny’s feet. They are small & I didn’t know correct hoof photography angles back then but you get the idea. I had let the Strasser trim grow right out for a few months. Then after reading lots about various farrier’s systems on the net I decided on the measurement system since it seemed to create a positive change in the horse’s feet.

Here are the photos of the 2 left side feet. I know now that I left the heels too long but that’s how his feet had regrown naturally after the strasser trim. But that is not what caused Sonny to get so lame after this particular trim. I had taken off so much at the toe I broken through the connection between the wall & the sole. No wonder he played up so much during the trim. He kept pulling his foot away all the time which was so out of character for him. Now I know better. About 2 days after he was back on his feet he was rumaging around my large pile of tree prunings when he got a heap of quite large borganvilla thorns in his feet which went right through his soles & again he was very lame unable to walk & needing bute.

Left Front. You can see he actually had concave front feet at that time.

Left Hind

The measurements system required me to take certain measurements then draw certain points on the sole & walls where I was to trim to & from. The heels got left with length on them due to how the toe angle was shaped on that particular trim. They were to be taken down more on successive trims as the toe angle changed. The sole shots so how I had started rasping the roll from part way between the frog point & whiteline & taken it up around the walls which left the sole bearing the whole weight. That was supposed to replicate the mustang roll, create a full sized break over around front of his hoof & reshape the hoof to a smaller more upright toe & compact shape. All it really did was ruin even more his abused hooves. I only ever did that trim once before rereading PR.

I must note here that a person I know of still does this trim & has totally ruined their horse’s feet. Poor thing is so lame all the time much like Sonny was the first time I did it. They also cut away where the heels bend around from the quarters towards the collateral grooves which causes the hooves to bleed each trim. I feel the hoof is growing heel to help with load bearing because all the walls are rasped away. There is also a duck bill toe all the time for some reason & those pain bands that Kim talks about. The frogs on that horse are totally contracted until they are mostly just slits. This person is 100% brainwashed by that farrier’s method & persists in doing it thinking they are having great success. They can’t see their horse is so lame it can’t canter & has to run along when ridden.

Sonny after the trim with his head down looking at his feet with a very sorry look on his face although at the moment of the photo he put this side ear forward.

whudson

Clarissa

Whudson thanks for that update

sounds like it's working out for you now. They were just normal shoes? Was that after the boots?

Clarissa

Trimming Sonny’s feet this time has been a prolonged task. I took photos & looked again at the Pete Ramey DVD on long toes & lamella wedge. The distance from frog tip to toe was nearly the same as frog tip to heel! Pete's answer was to quite severely rasp off a heap of toe length to restore the balance ratios. I feel that is a bit too severe so I decided to do it in 2 or 3 goes. I did it one other time where I rasped into the inner wall & Sonny was very sore for days. To that end I decided to use the knife to make a cut straight down into the sole at the toe where I think the lamella wedge must start. I think it’s lamella wedge because the wall at the toe never grows down past the sole like the wall does at the sides & heel. After 6wks there is very little wall growth beyond the sole at the toe this time. I know the season has created soil that wears the hoof at the rate it grows ie:- growth matches wear which would be great if his feet were really well shaped.

I dug with the looped knife until I found this bloody wedge. Once I found what I think should be the proper place for the toe, I nipped off half the growth. Unfortunately that puts all his weight back onto his soles & causes the toe callous to protrude below the sole so I had to rasp a swipe off that otherwise it would’ve caused a pressure point.

I think the heel platform is lengthening which I take to be the heels standing up & moving back towards where they should be. I have been lowering his heels progressively a tad at a time over the last few months & particularly the last 9wks every fortnight I take a single swipe off with the rasp. However lowering the heels lengthens the toes so there is balancing act there. I probably can lower the heels more once some wall grows back at the toe this time.

The interesting thing about the heels is that as fast as I rasp them off they grow back again. In the photos below it looks like the heels are longer than the quarter walls but the heels have been rasped off 3 times since the quarters were last done. So the heels grow really long & the wall at the toe doesn't grow below the sole at all. mmmmm strange, is all I can say!

I have continued to do the bevel toe finish rather than a roll to maintain as much wall thickness as possible. I have learned how high to make it so it doesn’t grow out too quickly.

So below is a 3 day process where I took photos, took more photos after scrubbing his feet clean & taking measurements, investigated around the toe, did the trim & took more photos. Over 100 shots this time! Um I’ll just post some though!

Left Front

Right Front

Sonny was pretty sore after the trim understandably. I had already decided to boot him for a few days because I was cutting down into the toe where it seems to be bleeding a bit. I think that is the tearing caused by the lamella wedge. But from the photo you can see he is standing well over his front feet which I know means he is sore. That’s how he used to carry himself all the time before I started working on his balance & carriage to lighten his FH.

The LF is showing an angle change again just starting to grow in at the top so possibly things might get better soon. The RF has more concavity starting but no angle change showing as yet. I am developing the opinion that concavity & forehand lightness are linked. I suspect there will be little improvement until I make good progress fixing his balance.

Clarissa

It's been 4mths since I posted here but there has been lots happening with Sonny's feet.......... not all good!

There has been all sorts of really bad weather for hooves from bone dry to continuous wet, inundated pastures & mud, then hot & steamy prime for fungal infections. His feet have held up surprisingly well but I haven't been able to take advantage of the soft footing to create wall growth below his sole plane. I had been waiting for such conditions to try to change the direction of the tubules that form the walls & heels.

The growth rate slowed to a crawl! Usually his feet grow quite fast in those conditions. I got a better angle to grow half way down then the growth rate stopped. There wasn't anything to even trim for over 2mths.

I did them properly 10days ago for only 2nd time this year other than to lightly trim the heels evry 2wks or so. I reviewed my last post regarding the late October trim where I was trying the Pete Ramey method again to shorten the toe but I needed the walls to keep growing to redo that cycle every few weeks, but they stopped growing then too.

Which brings us to today which was supposed to be just a heel touch up.

Today I made a really bad mistake while doing the mid cycle touch up to Sonny’s front heels. Unfortunately no camera with me to take a shot either.

Early last year those who kept tabs on our progress were constantly telling me to lower the front hoof heels. So that’s what my main aim has been during the last 8mths or so & slowly each trim I have slightly shortened the front heels a tad mid cycle (per PR) by just taking a swipe with the rasp. Sonny has always had a natural predisposition to grow longer heels & they got well run under, there is no doubt about that. My comment about that was always WHY DOES HE GROW HEELS? So far no-one has been able to give me a good reason why that should happen even though we read lots of articles & many practitioners say the horse will grow what it needs. In this case Sonny is growing heel…WHY? scratch

He already has a good heel first landing & has never landed toe first, yet has very thin soles with no collateral groove particularly at the front of the frog. I would say there is no change since I had the xrays done 13mths ago. If anything the soles have got even thinner.

Well today since it was 10days since I trimmed him, it was time to take a rasp swipe across the heel platforms again which would be the final lowering to a height most people would consider normal heel height for a bare foot horse. Then I did a light dig with the loop knife to give him some purchase with the heel platforms (to give them some proper shape) because they are very wide, totally flat right through the sole & he slides when he lands on them. It was all of 2 or 3 quick light forward flicks with the knife in the corner of the bar/heel connection. Not more. I then changed my grip & did the other heel on this hoof & I saw I had almost cut right through the sole!!!!!

It bled a lot instantly! I took my thumb off the other side of this hoof were I had been gripping the heel & it too bled. pale

SH!T I had removed only maximum 3ml depth total between 1 rasp swipe & knife cut & I had managed to cut right through to his live sole plane at the heel platform!!! Fr!gn hell…. I was already in major back pain & trying to get this tiny bit done thinking it was to benefit Sonny & I could tolerate this pain a few moments longer, but the sight of that blood almost made me pass out with anxiety. confused2

I wept right there as I sat staring at the blood dribbling to the ground from both sides of his hoof. sad5

Sonny didn’t seem to feel it like I know he has told me before that I have gotten too close to his sole. I had already done the other hoof without incident.

I collected my thoughts & knew I had to put his boots on his front feet till it healed. I had to lead him about 100m from the play area where I had been doing all my horse’s feet in the shade since the day was quite hot already, to where the boots are kept under the house. I didn’t want to leave him at the play area because the others had left & he would have run around too much & got dirt & poo in those fresh cuts. By walking him with me to the house we stayed on soft clean freshly mown lawn grass. He wasn’t showing any lameness & after I booted him he galloped off at breakneck speed like nothing was wrong. Currently he is on his own in the houseyard while Jude & Cassie are in front paddock adjoining. He is madly rushing around now that they have moved away from his sight. But I expect him to be sore tomorrow.

Today also I have been reviewing the Pete Ramey DVDs yet again that OMD gave me this time last year. Pete talks about heel height in Part3. He talked about various situations were heels maybe too high or not high enough & whether frog is engaged & how that affects toe angle, quality & sole thickness under toe. He explained several scenarios, one which seemed to fit Sonny’s circumstances. He says in certain circumstances we need to let the heels grow 1/2” longer than usual to encourage the toe to catch up. But that also runs the risk of developing a long angled toe (which is what was happening in Sonny’s case last time I tried this method).

The new heel bevel has to run parallel to the angle I want the sole to end up at (parrallel to P3) when it is fixed, not parallel to the current sole. Later on in Part4 to do with walls he talks again about heel height in relation to underrun heels & not trimming both toe & heel at same trim. I get that. I am already taking that advice.

It’s why I have been trying to change the angle of his front foot heels by doing a light bevel to the heel platform in a separate trim. But apparently the sole has never got any thicker so every 4wks or so I have been shaving off yet another 'nth of thickness & today I finally took off the very last thickness left. It is so frustrating.

So if lowering Sonny’s heels has not worked over the last 6mths to lift P3 up through the hoof capsule to thicken the sole & steepen the toe angle, then perhaps I need to go back to letting him have some heel height. He certainly couldn’t get any lamer! Then I’ll bevel that higher heel to match where the sole plane should be, not where it is now. I don’t ride him anymore because I am not succeeding at fixing his sole thickness/toe angle problems. Our ride along the highway in January was a one off (he wore his boots all round & was sore footed afterwards for days) it had been a few months since last ride before that. So other than that one ride it has now been 6mths since I rode him I think. So I’ll have several months to try this new direction.

You know what they say about continually doing the same thing but expecting a different result!

I know there has been a lot of water under the bridge re trimming methodologies since PR made those DVDs & much change in thinking, but the basics are still there. I would like to contact him for clarification re the heel height/sole thickness thing but there is no link to an email address on his website these days. All the rehab cases on his & other’s websites show vast improvement within 6mths, ie 1 complete growth cycle. Of course those shown would be the success stories & not the failures or works still in long term progress. Perhaps even if they were fixing Sonny he would fall into the later category!

Just sheer frustration right now. sad11