starting to get worried(with very large pics now)

barnelda · starting to get worried(with very large pics now)

Well the first "big" ride is upon me and I'm starting to stress about going barefoot.The trails are going to be pretty rocky and steep in places.I've been riding at home but with no trails here it's not for very long.I ride more in the neighbors field than anywhere.Road riding is just plain dangerous since all the roads in the area got repaved.Patches has only been barefoot since Aug of last year.I REALLY want to give this barefoot thing a good chance but I'm thinking about shoes again!Iknow I'm going to get critisized(SP?) bad but I'm sure I can handle that.The closer the ride gets the more anxiety I feel!What do I do about this???

I plan on ordering a size kit for the easyboot grip tonight.My trimmer said to get some boots and ride in them here first but this ride is fathers day weekend.I flippin waited to long to make up my mind I was going.Maybe I should put shoes on Patches until the next trim?I can be such a jack ass sometimes!!

appellativo

It sounds like you just need some reassurance lol! If your horse isn't gimpy at home on terrain relatively similar to what you'll be riding on, your horse will probably be fine. And if you have some sort of boot you can carry along with you on the saddle bag JUST IN CASE you need it, you'll be fine! You have more than three weeks to get some boots, don't fret. Anxiety never did anybody a bit of good. Just be confident in this: you're doing all you can to give barefoot a good try, and if you need boots, you're willing to use them. No big deal!!

:D

calatar

Why easyboot grips? The gloves are WAY easier to put on and stay on better than any of the other models. Also the tread on the gloves is pretty grippy and you can always add studs for more traction.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I agree with your farrier. Get the boots and get the horse used to them at home. Then take them with you and put them on when/if the horse gets tender.

If the terrain is rocky and the horse isn't used to it, he'll get sore. I tried barefoot and boots and now am happily shoeing my horse again. I gave it a good try, but Rosie was too sore to ride for 3 weeks afterwards, and once you are 5 miles into an 11 mile loop ride, it doesn't matter what you do, it's a long sore trip for the horse.

I think people should remain open minded about going barefoot. It works with some horses great, and other horses in certain terrains, and other horses not at all. Give it a try, but be prepared to boot if you need to.

Chablis

Please take boots for your horse.

becky b

Jodi don't beat yourself up. There is nothing wrong with trying barefoot. All of my friends that ride barefoot put boots on for trails. They don't seem to have a problem at all with the boots. To each their own as far as barefoot or not. It really depends on the horse I own 6 and 3 are fully shod, one is shod on front only and the other two are barefoot. I am proud to say that Bunnie has never had a shoe on and she has the best feet in the whole world. Sebastian my OTT TB can't even hang out in a grassy pasture without 4 shoes on. I do what is best for the individual horse. Budman has good enough feet that I could probably switch him over to boots but honestly I have been too lazy. He stands like a dream for the farrier and has not spent one day lame since I started shoeing him. Before the shoes he had to have 3 to 4 weeks to recover from a 3 hour trail ride. I could not stand to see him uncomfortable so I went back to shoes on him. It is not too late for you to get boots before your ride, but you do need to ride him a few times at home to let him get used to the feel of them. My friends horse over exaggerated each step she took for the first hour or so wearing boots, now they are like a part of her body, she doesn't mind them at all, and is an angel when her owner is putting them on/off of her. Good luck and have fun on your ride.

PS Stormy says to tell you thank you for finding him a new home! He still loves living here, and is really a sweetheart!

barnelda

Thank you I feel a bit better now,I think LOl.I don't know why I typed EB grip when I meant glove.I was thinking a lot of people seem to love the glove and it'd the cheaper one!Works for me!!

Carol the one thing I don't want to do is be in the middle of a 4 hour ride and have my horse come lame.I'll have the people riding behind me keep an eye on him to see if he misses a beat.If the boots go well here I may just use them on the trail.I only planned on getting the front boots.Think I should get 4?I really don't have the $$ right now for 4.Maybe I'll have to miss the ride

Becky I am SO glad Stormy loves your house!He is in SUCH a better place!Now if I could just find Fury the same kind of home!I went and played with him the other day and boy does he miss me!I miss him too!!!!

But thanks guys I hope this goes well!I LOVE my trimmer so I hope the barefoot thing works out.Not one farrier ever treated Patches so patiently and kind.

appellativo

right or wrong, my horse's back feet look better than the fronts (very good actually) so I only boot the fronts. It depends how your horse's back feet look. I'm not familiar with your horse's history (if you've posted one on here) so won't comment on your particular situation

becdubie

your boots will be your safety net. Looking forward to seeing some picutes of the big ride. Take before and after shots of the hooves and if you feel comfortable sharing them, I'd love to see how your horses hooves hold up.

barnelda

Well I can't get the glove anyway!I can't believe out of 3 hardware stores within an hour of me and not freaking one has something that measures in millimeters!I'm so ticked off right now!I called easy care inc and they won't convert my standard measurements due to boots don't fit when they do convert.If someone can help me patches feet are-

RF-Width 4 5/8 Length 5 1/8
LF-W 4 3/4 L 5 1/8

Maybe if someone has a standard tape measure and one that measures MM they can tell me what mine are in MM.I'd GREATLy appreciate it!!If not I'll pick another boot. No matter what I've got to get cracking!!!

appellativo

4 and 5/8 is 118 mm
5 and 1/8 is 130 mm

4 3/4 is 121 mm
5 1/8 is, again, 130mm

hope this helps!

are you going to order the fit kit??

bit

Be sure to ride a bit at home with the gloves. Boots can rub the back of the heel bulb, like any new shoe for us. Knee highs, yes nylon knee highs help. I do a combo duct tape on the heel where it rubs and nylons. Works great! Got this from Kelsey and the endurance.net sight.
Make sure those boots, whatever kind you get, don't rub. If they do, easy fix. I also got pads for my gloves. The Renegades are also a great boot, but more expensive. Make sure the boots fit before ya buy em! You can get a fit kit from epic for the gloves to make sure. The gloves fit great on the right front, not good at all on the left front on Gunner. They fit great on Eclipse, but do rub her heels. Power straps help with the fit, and not expensive so might as well get them. I made sure to mark my boots left and right, too.
My trimmer is a rep for epic and renegade, so she fitted Ecliipse and Gunner for me. Ya never know, your trimmer may know a rep, so ask!
Have a great ride! Yep, wear those boots! Gloves are great, don't let any dirt in and my horses gaits didn't change at all.
There is always another ride, ok? If the boots don't happen in time, don't take your horse. Rocky trails can be a little brutal, and nope ya don't want your horse getting a sole bruise. Trust me, Gunner has been dealing with an abscess since March 12. Two more weeks of recovery. If you can't get boots, just wait.

barnelda

THANK YOU ERIN!!!!!!!Just ordered my fit kit.Got the 1.5 which comes with sizes 1,1.5 and 2 so we should be set!Thank you Thank you Thank you

Bit,don't worry,if no boots,no ride!The glove it is!Woo hoo.Patches had a sole bruise for about a week and half a few month ago.Have no idea how he got it.There is not one stone in my pasture.I will remember the nylons too.I'm not getting a picture of the duct tape combo though.Could you explain that or have pics?I hope I'm not just being dumb!With the nylons I picture you just put them on like a pair of nylons just not pulling them up all the way.

barnelda

when I order the actual glove will it come with the gaiter?Bit which pad did you get.I'm not real sure which one to get.I'm thinking about getting the green strap just so they would match my saddle attire!

Plus to keep dirt out

Newfman

When in doubt, order the fit kit. It gives you an oversize and undersize. You fit the right ones, send the others back.

Your horse will be sound on the type of ground you have adapted him to.

Sounds like you need boots.

In shoes, if he steps on a rock that exceeds the clearance height provided by the shoe, he will still stone bruise.

It sounds like you are trying to do the right thing. Just repeat ofter me. . .

"Its about the horse."

"Its about the horse."

"Its abou. . ..

barnelda

barnelda

I actually talked to a lady around here that is also trying the barefoot thing!I got all excited LOL.She also uses the glove but she was telling me that after a trim the boot doesn't fit very well.From what I got out of our conversation she does not have a natural trim done.I thought I read somewhere that having a natural trim is VERY important when using the glove.I should have just asked her but a couple bud lights had me all giddy and not thinking LOL.

Newfman

Wow, an east coaster. I have family in the Kennett square area.

It is my understanding that, as you pointed out, a proper barefoot trim is the conformation that the boot design is based upon. The "Glove" is a very finnicky boot. It is designed for feet in real good health and condition. They don't have near the tolerance for fitment that many of the other models have. They are for feet that are already "there" and are kept up with pretty religiously. So they are always a perfect fit.

Your friend can come here, we'll convert her!

calatar

A natural trim is best for the glove but there is a little leeway (admittedly not as much in other models). It is best to measure tight after a trim when the foot will be smallest. If it fits then it should fit at all stages in a 6 week trim cycle, although you wouldn't want to go any longer and shorter (especially in the summer) would be better.

Hank

You also need to bear in mind that the Glove will "wallow out" after a couple of rides, thus allowing in debris and possibly rubbing on the heel bulbs.

If the fit kit shows you that the hard edge of the boot is going to cut into the heel bulbs, you are better off not using the Glove boot.

barnelda

Right now the boys are getting trimmed every 4 weeks.The only time that changes is around tax season.Then it goes 5-6 weeks.

I would think if the glove fits really good at time of trim,that it would get tighter and tigher as hoof grows.

If the glove is going to "wallow out"should I go one size smaller than what the fit kit calls for?And should the "hard edge" of the boot come up over the bulbs?That way it won't cut into the bulbs?

Thanks a bunch for all your help!!

calatar

Get the size that fits, period. In terms of heels, can't help you there have never had a problem. Also mine didn't "wallow out" so I don't know what to say in terms of that. On a four week cycle you should be FINE. If the boot fits after a trim, it will fit the length of a trim cycle as it does have some stretch.

Hertha

You still seem to have the option of putting on shoes for this big ride coming up, so you don't have to rush the boot thing.

barnelda

Ok so I got my fit kit today and rushed out to the boys and got fitting.I did take notes so I wouldn't forget how they fit.First pic is the size 1 but the notes on both fronts are the same.The size 1 didn't "slip" right on and is pretty snug the whole way around.The V in the front didn't spread out at all.The heel part met the top of the heel bulb at the hair line.

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These next pics are size 1.5 Sorry the pics are so big but I thought the bigger the better for you to see

In my opinion the 1.5 is too big.The heel part comes out past the bulbs and you can sort of see down in the boot.The V in the front again didn't open at all.It did have a snug fit though.But was sort of easy to put on.The size 1 I was real snug to go on if ya know what I mean.

So I am thinking the size 1 is what i should order.OR should I get the next smaller fit kit and see how they fit?I was going to do this in video but thought pics would do.So what do y'all think?

appellativo

I'm not sure what to tell YOU, but NONE of the glove sizes I tried (I tried two fit kits for a total of six different sizes, NONE of them spread the V out. If it fit front to back, it didn't fit left to right, and vice versa. You'll be the best to judge based on the little fitting flier that came with it. I wouldn't buy any of them unless they fit as per ALL the criteria/instructions on the flier. Best of luck to ya!

appellativo

I loved the easyboot epics when I had them. Rode in mud, etc with nary a problem. I sold them to get a smaller size (my horse's feet reduced in size when all her flare grew out), but when I did, the smaller size didn't work. So I bought what my farrier had on hand, the Cavallo. I haven't ridden in them yet so I can't give a rating on them.

calatar

I would go with the 1s. 1.5 looks too big and .5 would be too small.

Hertha

Have you checked out Renegades? They seem a nice crowd to deal with.

I tried the glove fit kit with three sizes and none of them were the right shape for my horse's feet.

barnelda

I hope I made the right decision but I'm ordering the size 1 glove.The fit kit size one seemed to fit the it should other than the V not opening very much.Marci(I think her name was) at easyboot said the strap would help.So I'm going to order the strap also.Pads too.I'm going all out LOL!

I did check out the renegade,which I LOVE the metallic green but it takes a week just to process the order.Although I don't know much about boots it looks like it would be harder for debris to get in the heel part of the glove.The renegade looks to open with nothing covering it.Maybe that will be my next set if we stay barefoot which I am praying we will!

Thank you all so very much!If you still have opinion let me know!!!I'll post pics when I get Patches gloves

Newfman

Those look like pretty nice horse feet. I do have a question though. In the first photo, the right heel looks a little long, and the second picture, the left heel looks a little low and forward. Is this horse Hi-Lo or is it the camera angles? These things would have an affect on boot fit.

The ground under your horses feet doesn't exactly look plush. Maybe he will prove to be tougher than you anticipate.

barnelda

GREAT they are backorder

appellativo

Thanks calatar I will keep that in mind when I try them! Just a regular old sock, eh? That'll look nice!

calatar

You could try one of theur distributors like actionridertack.com or doversaddlery.com and see if they have it in stock.

barnelda

appellativo

rent Pete Ramey's That's My Horse series 2: The Hi-Lo Hanoverian for more info on hi-lo!

http://www.giddyupflix.com/detail.php?id=1154&r=i

Newfman

Maybe not rent that too fast. Like I said, it could just be camera angle, and likely is.

Hi-Lo. One foot is more upright and higher heeled, and the contralateral hoof (the opposite hoof on the same half of the horse fore or hind) is more "normal" to lowere heeled and run forward. Giving a High foot low foot appearance.

If you want, you can shoot a lateral (from the side) photo of the front feet, from ground level. This allows the comparison of one foot to the other.

Don't freak youself out so much that you can't have fun. There may be a little trial and error to this, but you will get there if you choose to. It may suck, but if worse comses to worse, you can always get off and walk. What would you do if your horse threw a shoe on the trail? Crap happens. Enjoy the journey.

barnelda

A friend is coming in the am to pick up Patches and I to take us riding.I'm hoping to ride on trails that are a bit more harsh than my pasture and the little bit of road riding I do.I don't want Patches to come up lame or sore but I do want to see how he does away from home.The trails at this ride can be rocky and muddy so we are going to ride trails like this tomorrow.

Either before we leave or after we get back I'll take some pics and post.I ordered the gloves from valley vet today.They are to get them in tomorrow.Everyone else was mid June or the end of June.Barefoot must be getting popular if all these companies(VV,Action tack,Dover sadderly,and easycare)are out of stock until late June.I so hope it works for us!Too bad it's more $$$$$ than using shoes and getting normal trims.

calatar

appellativo

I've saved more money than you can shake a stick at by using boots instead of shoes! And, since I do my own trimming, I save even MORE! I ought to be rich. (too bad I'm not.)

calatar

barnelda

Well the guy who trimmed and put the boys shoes on was $40 per horse every 8 weeks.The natural trim is $65 per horse.The first natural trimmer I found was $50 but he was full.I've been thinking of trying to find someone cheaper.It's hard on my pocket book @ every 4 weeks.

Erin-where did you learn to trim?I would LOVE to learn how to do this myself!Is there a website or school?hhhmmm wonder if my trimmer would teach me?She is very nice.Would that be rude of me to ask her?

Hertha

calatar

appellativo

It is so rewarding to do your own horses' feet. goat owners do it all the time. Some farriers or people in general will cringe at the idea of doing it yourself, but really, the knowledge is out there how to do it, and if you are a RESPONSIBLE, reasonably cautious person who does your homework, you can do it!

I began by exploring the good barehoof websites, getting the basic anatomy so I could know what I was looking at and asked my trimmer if she'd explain to me what she was doing. After I watched the Under the Horse Dvd's by pete ramey, I really understood the inner workings of the hoof, anatomy, biomechanic function of the hoof, etc. From there, just ask your trimmer, "hey, I've been reading up, and I'd like to learn to do this myself. Are you willing to shadow me if I do it myself? I'll still pay you to come out and watch over me and help me out a little as I learn." Heck yeah, they are willing!! Do less work and get paid? Who wouldn't? Only if they are REALLY wanting to hoard the knowledge to themselves and are terrified of losing a client....if they are that type of person, you gotta wonder about them though!

You just take it one little step at a time. One article, watching one trim and asking lots of questions, one book, (Making Natural Hoof Care Work For You by Ramey, Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care by Jackson) one video....you'll get there! It's a journey! Begin now!

appellativo

LOL on pricing! In this area, barefoot trimmers are charging $35-40. I charged $25 in the beginning because after all, who would use someone with not very much experience (when I started out, but even then I'd had over a year of trimming experience doing it for myself) who is not doing it for a living charging the same price as the other guys in my area who have been doing it a while and have some sort of formal certification?

Now, it's such hard work, and I do such a good job (people tell me I do so it must be true lol), that I raised my prices. I only do for a small handful of people. I don't want to do this for a living! But, I love doing it. If that makes any sense.

Today I went riding with my friend and it had been five weeks since her horse's last trim (she uses another farrier), and he was a little flared around his heels and a little chippy. I offered to do him, put a nice bevel on there, and he looked so good afterwards. I bet he looks better in five weeks, too!

I like to trim every four to five weeks, just because it prevents the chipping and flare from ever becoming an issue!

If I happened to be willing to let my 'clients' slide past six weeks, (which I wouldn't really want to do) I'd charge more, too, because having to remove more hoof IS more work! But that's just me, and I don't play by the rules.

BuffaloBill

Just read Jamie Jackson's and Pete Ramey's books.

I did a clinic with my farrier/trimmer (he can do both, but does only barefoot-horses nowadays) where I learned the most important techniques and theory; we practiced on dead hooves. For the first time afterwards, I didn't dare do much to my own horse's feet... I have my farrier come every 7 weeks, and in-between I simply try to keep the shape they gave the hooves. That is, rasp a mustang roll when I feel it's time for it, and rasping away slight flares as soon as I see them. I found it's easiest to do little rather often than wait until the shape of the hoof changes (because of too little natural wear) and try to reshape it in a professional way.

Anyway, it's nothing you can't try... are there any clinics where you can learn how to do it basically? Here in Europe, more and more horse-owners decide to work on their horses' hooves themselves, mostly under the guidance of a professional who comes every few weeks to check what they did. I wouldn't dare doing all of it myself and never call the professional trimmer, but this way works really well.

My trimmer asks 60 Euros (!) per trim. Every 7 weeks...

I liked the two books by Jackson and Ramey (just read both this weekend

... really helpful to understand things even better. I would recommend them to anyone... even if you don't plan to trim yourself.
You have to brace yourself against judging the hooves of every horse you see, though, and get used to finding a lot of non-pleasant sights...

Newfman

Newfman

I have well over 800 hours invested in study and research. As much as I would love to mke $65 to $100 per horse, I think that is a bit high. It isn't surgery. . .well it isn't supposed to be anyhow, but there is that trimming "style" as well. As much as I have put into it, I think there are limits to what hoof triming is worth. I charge quite a bit more for draft feet, because they put my back out of commission so I don't want to do them. If I have to do them, I can afford to take the rest of the day off.

I don't waste time with people that want a "barefoot" trim, just because they don't want the expense of shoes. They will do nothing that a horse owner needs to do to support their horse for barefoot, and will have their horses on a 12 week cycle. Every trim is a set-up trim, flares cracks etc. They ultimately go to the guy in the next town over who does the $25 dollar trims. (I fix those too.) I'm happy to be rid of these folks.

If I were Pete Ramey or Jamie Jackson however, I'd still only charge $40 for a trim. Right after the $250 consult!

Just kidding.

Being Certified, means nothing to me personally. It is a credential that says that somebody has approved you for their particular motodology. If you are a AANHCP certified trimmer, you have way too much money and like to waste it frivolously. $9000! Really? Jamie has gathered a rediculous ego. There are only a hand full of potential clients that will research Barefoot enough to recognize the value of the certification, which is a bit limited. Seems like everyone with a trimming method and a website are are offering certification. I've seen both AANHCP and New Balance certified hoof trimmers here, and they wouldn't be allowed to touch my horses feet. So far, certification is a money maker for the certifier. Some people need organized training, so the programs may work for them, but don't think it is like a Phd, because it generally means nothing to the public. Be smart with your money, think it through first. Stay away from cliquey, trendy and stylized methods. Simple and basic is the foundation. You can play after you understand the basics. If I were to bother with certification. . .AHA is the only way I would go. My opinion of course. I'd still only charge $40 per trim.

Last point. Trim cycles should be 4 weeks as a general rule. I live in Maine where temps get to minus 20 easily and snow is measured in feet. I haven't seen hoof growth slow down very much in the winter. Your mileage may vary.

BuffaloBill

Oh yes, I'm the lucky owner of a horse who has never been shod in his life. He's now 7 y.o. When I bought him as a 4-y-o his hooves were a bit neglected (thrush, never cleaned) with the reason he kicked everyone who tried to hold his feet up to the moon

. Nevertheless, his hooves are hard as steel. I can't remember a situation when something broke out of the wall or something - simply never happens, and our trails are with big stones or gravel...

two weeks ago he escaped me, totally panicking because of a motorcycle crossing our way in the woods.... he raced home at a full-speed gallop (crossing the main street, that wasn't fun) about 5 kilometres ... over a road which I don't dare trotting on normally because there are rocks, gravel, big stones.
His heart rate was still at 90 after one full hour ... but his hooves ... not one scratch

Just a while ago I bought hoof boots (Easyboot Bare, I love them, great boots IF they fit!) just for that road, but after reading Pete and Jaime's books I will probably never use them... but wondered if I shouldn't ride that gravel road more often in order to strenghten his hooves even more.
He's out 24/7 by the way, with a huge herd of 25, a lot of the paddock they live on is covered with "grass pavel" (that's what the dictionary says... like this: http://www.kortmann-beton.de/products/oekopflaster/rasengitter), filled with sand. Seems to work for the hooves.

I'd like to read more... are there more books to be recommended, other authors?

calatar

Newfman

Interesting paddock design. The German link was a bit difficult to understand. Though I was born in Berlin, I just never managed to get the hang of the language. Of course, the fact that I was in Texas by age two may have had something to do with it. I found the english link though.

It sounds like the things you are doing are fine. He galloped down that road without a rider. I'm guessing that that is a round 80 kilos or so that he didn't have to carry, and that wasn't throwing his balance off. They get really light on their feet without a person on them. I would be careful about how far you push. The problem with finding the breaking point of something is, you find the point, but then the 'thing' is broken. What you describe is not available in my area. I have not seen horses get to go that far. The are mostly arena bound here. That is a very good question for some of the barefoot endurance riders. But, as I understand it, they carry boots and will boot up for some unusually rough and jagged conditions, then get bare again when the terrain changes.

Pete Rameys video series is excellent. Some people think listening to him is a bit difficult and nod off from time to time. I have never had a problem with it. It is, as I mentioned earlier, good 'foundation' material. When you can really wrap your head around all of that, and get a solid feel for the mechanics of the hoof, you can start looking at other stuff and use the logical side of your brain to decide if it is bunk or not.

Anything you can find on wild horses is also helpful. I think the stories of "Cloud" the wild mustang are online in video. Ah, here you go. . . http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/ep...stallion-returns/introduction/62/

I just bought Chris Pollits new video "The Desert Brumby" I have watched it 4 times in the last few days. Excellent, excellent excellent. You learn a lot by just observing the wild horse. Use what you have learned and watch them apply it for you in real life. In a recent email he said that their hoof morphometrics study of feral horses from several different populations is coming along and will be published pretty soon. REALLY looking forward to reading it. He really puts the science into barefoot. It is really needed.

The studies available on line are endless. Books however are somewhat limited. I wouldn't wast my money (again) on Jacksons videos and wouldn't take his tool reccomendations (again). The books though are invaluable. Here is a good link http://www.wildhorseresearch.com/

I also reccomend Dr. Eleanor Kellon's courses on line. NRC which is horse nutrition and BRR which is basics of reading radiographs. Both are excellent courses and available on your side of the pond.

Hope that helps.

Dennis

Newfman

Alayna, that is a good question. Sometimes I wonder if perception has something to do with it. I think they may also build up some false sole, which can certainly make a hoof look like it isn't really growing much. Then you remove the false sole and holy cow, you are back to having to use hoof nippers to catch up.

Nutrition can certainly be an issue. As forage decreases in nutritional value, it may have that effect. We supplement and my clients supplement, so, there is no lack of hoof to trim.

calatar

Yeah I'm not really sure. It could be nutritional but mine are supplemented as well. Don't think it's sole. How I noticed it was when my horse had a toe crack and was being trimmed by a trimmer on a six week schedule. In the summer the toe would get longer and the crack would get substantially worse. I finally got rid of it when I could trim more frequently but now I trim on a 4-6 week schedule depending on hoof growth.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I definitely see slower growth in the winter...and more moist and pliable hooves. I have one horse who grows out very fast and she slows down to 'normal' over the winter.

appellativo

Ive heard the theory that since winters are wetter/muddier/snowier, that hoof wears faster in the winter and thus makes it APPEAR that hoof growth is 'slower' when it really is growing the same rate but WEARING faster. Thoughts? Mud is more abrasive especially to a moist hoof.....

Mandy'sMarty

I was taught that the horse shifts the energy required to grow its coat and its hooves based on the season. In other words, it transfers more energy into growing a thicker, longer coat for insulation during the colder seasons and it transfers more energy into growing hoof during the warmer seasons.
The trigger for this 'shift' is the amount of daylight the horse experiences.
Shorter days trigger the shift to more energy being diverted into coat growth for insulation when it is needed during the coldest season with the shorter days. Longer days trigger the cycle shift to divert more energy into the hoof growth, when the horse is likely to be more mobile.

My mare apparently has a very revved up metabolic rate. She is on a 4 week trim cycle during the summer, 5 week cycle during fall and spring, 6 week cycle during the dead of winter. Her coat changes early fall and early spring, before others in her herd. I have been told by two different experienced practitioners that Mandy's hooves grow faster than any other horse they have worked on. I believe she can grow out a whole new hoof in 7-8 months.

barnelda

Looks like I can get Ramey and jackson's books on Amazon for about $20 each.Guess I am going back to school sort of LOL.Sure would be nice to save some $$$$ on trims!Hopefully my trimmer would charge less if she just had to do touch ups for me or just inspect my work.I know it will be a while before I even pick up a rasp.

You all know so much about hooves!I am excited that I will soon know a bunch!I REALLY want to thank you for your guidance!

I do know my boys hooves don't grow as fast in the winter here in Pa.I thought it was the cold weather.The last 2 times my trimmer was here she had to use the nippers.So that is telling me they do need something done in between her visits.I got to get cracking on studying!

bit

I finally picked up a rasp, just to smooth out a chip that had started on Gunner. I couldn't figure out why the dang rasp didn't work. I was justa filing away, and I got nothin. Um, then I turned it around. Much better. I'd only tell you guys. I can't wait until Kelsey gets here. Trims every four weeks, mega rolls, rock hard feet. Oh yeah.

Newfman

That's weird. Myself and another trimmer have cursed hooves all winter. "Your supposed to slow down!" cussing

Just didn't happen. I had huge problens with ice fields here (thanks to global warming) and excess hoof wall and long heels just collapse on ice. There was no leeway, you had to be on top of them or they would really get away from you.

They did seem to develop a bit of a retained sole pad, so I just trimmed them down to that. Maybe it is a response to the ice. Extra insulation. My horses always get to experiment on something. Usually it is snow here, and it isn't an issue, though their feet just keep right on growing, the retained sole hasn't been real prominent.

appellativo

barnelda, I kept thinking how much money I was saving on learning to trim my own. I kept telling myself that after dropping five hundred bucks on a hoofstand, rasps, a nipper, hoofknife, rasp handles, nipper spring, etc.....

:D

I still come out ahead, though, i think.... esp once the initial investment is over.

Newfman

Ah, but what value did you put on healthy feet? I can tell you, back then, all of my horses had chips, cracks, and soft digital cushions. My warmblood had capsular rotation, underrun heels negative palmar angle on and on and on. Oh, it was the Thoroughbred in him. "They bred the feet off."

Yup, he is thin walled, and that is for certain. But he is upright and sound now. Still has some dorsal wall issues (so they aren't the prettiest) and is base narrow so he has lateral flares, but he flies around through dirt and stone and has convavity that he never had before.

You know what the weirdest thing was?

We liked our farrier! We were one of those people who say, "We have a great farrier." We would reccomend him with no problem. We actually believed that this is as good as hooves in New England get without shoes. The first time I asked about "Natural Hoof Care" I thought the old guy was going to have a stroke! Don't get me wrong, we really liked him. I bet he could shoe our drafts as well or better than most. He is a great blacksmith and made some really nice stuff for us. But, he could never get our horses feet as nice as they are now. He is stuck in the past.

I know one farrier here in Maine that will do any kind of shoe you can imagine. He is 'the man' up here. Then he puts his other hat on and is a barefoot trimmer. A real barefoot trimmer. It's just weird. The difference between him and the others...He could not put a shoe on a hoof that he just barefoot trimmed. He would have to wait until the hoof wall grew back down to excess. That is by his own admittance. He is also one of the highly regarded farriers on the farrier to farrier forum. There is a great place to get beat up!

But he is pretty pure farrier there.

Farriery is an art. It will always be needed. Just less so in the future it seems, and much more specialized. Those that 'get it' are going to really benefit. People will realize that hoof surgeries and trauma recovery require a very special, custom shoe and only the very best farriers will be called upon. The ones that can't shape a shoe, and don't really understand anatomy. . .they'll just dry up and blow away. Right along with the trimmers that can't be bothered to learn why they do what they think they are supposed to do.

Very slowly, horse owners are educating themselves about hooves. Even a few doctors are starting to learn that their is much more to it than, finding a good farrier. It was always just deferred. The times they are a changing. . .

So, don't alienate every farrier in your area. Many of them have skills and knowledge you can only dream of. There are times that you will have to refer your client to them. Some of them have worked with the local vets for decades and are the ones that do the hoof wall resections and supportive shoes. They do the specialized shoes and toe extensions for ligament tenotomies. Some horses will need some pretty extreme measures to get well. You have to have their support, skill and knowledge. After all. . . It's about the horse.

BuffaloBill

Very interesting thread!

Thanks for the links and recommendations on readings, Dennis. I will check out one after the other.

I'm certainly not throwing my hoof boots away... but I thought that perhaps I was a bit too worrying about the hooves ... I bought them because everyone here uses boots for their trail rides. But now I think that this is perhaps the new "horse-shoe" - you have boots because your horse is supposed to wear boots, if not shoes. Times are changing, but sometimes I get this feeling - shoes are simply replaced by hoof boots (better than shoes of course, because only temporary), without reflecting if the horse needs them at all or perhaps he doesn't. I know because I didn't reflect on buying the boots. I just thought: everyone here is riding out with boots, I need a pair for the front hooves at least, too. I was just wondering which brand would fit best, never considered that my horse could perhaps manage without them, too.
He has never shown any signs of being sore or choosing - as some horses would - the soft part of the road in the middle, where grass grows. I'd let him choose where he wants to place his feet, but I could never observe that he prefers soft grass to rocky ground...

I'd have another question:

One thing I'm not sure about is when pete Ramey talks about the quality of sole to be removed. I don't know how exactly he expresses it.. but something like: when you reach "live" and "quality" sole, it's time to stop removing it (like at the heel-buttress). And I simply don't know how to distinguish the kind of sole to be removed and the "quality" sole... There are no pictures... The sole of my horse looks and feels pretty much the same all over... The outermost of the sole is just as hard and the same structure as the rest (only darker from dust and earth, of course).
This is just something I'm interested in, to know it for sure. I don't cut the sole at all, mostly. Doesn't appear necessary to me. My trimmer doesn't cut off more than a millimeter, either.

barnelda

Just ordered Pete's book for $19.89(inc ship)!Can't wait to start reading it although I HATE reading!I don't think I have ever finished a book in my life.But I have never been this excited to read one before so this feels different.

Will I really "need" a hoof jack stand?My trimmer is the only person who has ever used one on my horses.And Patches hinds she can't.He doesn't like her picking his hoof up that far.

How many of you have made your own stand?I just know there has to one or two that have made one!

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eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/farrier-horse...hash=item1e5c546b1f#ht_548wt_1137

Just a word for those who have a desire to study hooves. Get lots of different opinions and then develop an idea of which parts make sense to you. There are lots of things Ramey says that I agree with and some I don't. Same can be said for all the trimmers I have learned from. There is still A LOT that is not known about the hoof and it becomes someones best guess. Ask 3 different hoof professionals about the function of bars and you will get 5 different answers.

Also if you don't care to read the I highly recommended this DVD http://solesisterproductions.com/ .

Newfman

I recently saw an x-ray of a hoof trimmed from the top. Gotta' dig that out and post it.

appellativo

curious about the xray.

Lots of people don't use a hoof stand. sometimes I dont when I pull the hind foot forward (its just easier not to.)

but for trimmers that are ...errr.....in, not so good of shape....and don't do it every day (raises hand), I like my stand. esp. if you have a horse who likes to lean, or an older horse who needs the support.

I've heard of people using old washing machine agitators for a hoof stand. Or a jack with a tennis ball.

Or here's a plan you could get a welder to make for ya for about fifty bucks...

carefreegirl

Are hoof stands a necessity? (not for most people) are they nice to have? (yep)

I got one of of e-bay for $90 including shipping, the guy who sells it makes them, so I am sure you could get the same one, it is adjustable in height, and has two different heads and has a concave base, This is the type of hoof stand I got, and it is even cheaper now then when I got it
http://cgi.ebay.com/farrier-horse...tDomain_0&hash=item1e5c546b1f

I trimmed for about 3 to 4 months before I got my hoof stand, I used it regularly when I first got it, but now I go back and forth between using it and not using it.

I bought two rasps (~$20 each)and one hoof knife (~$30.00), and a pair of gloves(~$10), and the hoof stand(~$90), and I bought Pete's book (~$18 ), and rented his vids from Horseflix watched them all in a month for $10 (can rent them from Giddyupflix now as horseflix is out of business), researched online, and getting help from others online ($0), came to a total of ~$198 spent on learning to do my own trimming since Dec 2008. I plan to go to some clinics/take some classes in the future, and would like to read more books, but $'s are tight so waiting for that.

It has now been 19 months ( ~9 months of summer, and ~10 months of winter) or ~76 weeks since starting to do my own trimming, I use to pay $75 for shoes every 6 weeks in summer (~36 weeks/6 = ~6 shoeing cycles in summer= 6*$75=$450) and would pay $30 for trim every 8 weeks in winter(~40 weeks/8= ~5 trim cycles= 5*$30=$150) $450+ $150=SO ~$600 would have spent on hoof care during same 19 month time period if I was still paying for someone else to do it, $600-$198=so ~$402 in savings.
Knowledge and experience gained PRICELESS

now even with the savings trimming your own horse by yourself is not for everyone, it requires attention to detail, and willingness to learn, and it is hard work, it definitely is not easy. Good luck. I am by no means an expert but I have thoroughly enjoyed learning and caring for my horses feet.

barnelda

CFG, LOL you sound like a commercial!

misstux

In addition to all the items previously mentioned, I have also bought grape shears and trimming chaps (after I rasped holes in 2 pairs of breeches). Pretty soon I ought to break even.

Hertha

My 'hoof stand' is the concrete base of a sun umbrella stand. It has a hollow steel pipe up the middle. I put a little plastic bottle (that my dry yeast for baking bread comes in) upsidedown on the pipe and that's it.

Hertha

Buffalo Bill wrote:

BuffaloBill

Newfman

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appellativo

Apparently TTFT has gotten a bad name...somebody's teaching a 'bad' TTFT I guess. Where I learned it, you don't rasp 4 cm up the wall.....you just remove the 'flare' from the top, and that's only on the bottom like ONE cm...removing more than what is going to come into contact with the ground in the next month is extraneous....

ForgeNHammer

barnelda

forgeNhammer I have a question-in your profile pic I notice you don't have borum on your shoes.When I was using shoes if I didn't have borum put on the shoes my horse would slip and slide A LOT.How does your horse not slide around?

Newfman

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ForgeNHammer

Kim Cassidy

Kim Cassidy

Newfman

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With all due respect Newf I don't know what has got you offended. You came out very outspoken about a trim method.

Others shared their experience and expressed that we didn't believe the "faults" were due to that trim method rather they were due to poor/uneducated trimming.

I don't see where things got personal, other than when you accuse someone of getting off "their perch". *shrugs*

ForgeNHammer

Educational or to prove farriers suck? Being a barefoot trimmer you have no clue what it takes to shoe a horse. There are a ton of variables from conformation to the environment the horse lives in all play a huge roll in how a horse is shod. Maine is a wet muddy place a lot of the year so that probably came into play when it came to heel fit. As for the shaved down wall, thats not normal practice in shoeing but, I bet you didn't ask why it was done, you just snapped some pics and used them to throw the farrier under the bus. And how many weeks did you wait to take the pics of those feet since the shoe is worn some already? You talk about farriers from your area on here (probably one of my friends Phil or George) and say the weird stuff they do, have you ever hung out and chatted with them or worked together on horses with them to see what they are dealling with??? I bet not, because your happy being a big fish in a small pond on this site.

appellativo

I think there may be a lot of assuming of intent going on here, based on past history...All I saw someone posting a rad with a wall that had been snubbed to show that snubbing the toe/thinning the wall is a bad idea. I think that point was well-made. Let's leave the past in the past and not drag it into this thread...heck even if someone was trying to stir the pot, can't the others just let it go without becoming toxically emotionally involved? That'd be so much nicer...

(plays some relaxing Enya music)

PasoBaby_CarolU

Hmmmm, I've shod horses for 45+ years, seen a lot of farriers. I've never seen one trim from the top and then shoe. They all trim from the bottom, trim flat, put the shoe on, crimp the nails, then turn the hoof out on the stand and mark the nail, rasp off the edges, and run a small angle bead between the shoe and hoof wall, couldn't be more then a 1/16".

That first x-ray looks like a founder to me. The bone and the hoof wall start being at an uneven angle way up high on the foot.

**Just a note here to everyone on this thread. I know you all are passionate about how you trim and shoe. I just want you to treat each other civilly, even if you passionately disagree. Use facts in your arguments, not emotions.

Mandy'sMarty

Dennis--Can you share the relative dates or timeline between the two radiographs? I clearly see a difference in 'taper', apparently caused by shaving the hoofwall, between the two images.

Is there some reason the radiograph of the shod foot was shot at that perspective? I'm not experienced in reading these images but it appears to me that this image is not at a true 90 degrees. If this is so, is it possible that that 'taper' is not uniform across the front face of the hoofwall? And if this is so, could that be a reason for the appearance of the changes in the 'taper'?
I personally don't think this could be the reason, but then, I'm not experienced in reading radiographs.

The first radiograph, which I assume is of the same foot at an earlier barefoot period, appears to be shot at a true 90 degrees perspective.

And is it fair to assume that the solar view of the shoe and nail application is shot at the same time the radiograph was shot? If so, I was attempting to match up the nails to imagine how that radiograph might have looked if it had been shot at a true 90 degrees. (The nail heads are spaced unevenly...and I assume the nails follow that pattern.)

Finally, my comments may be silly because I am no expert at reading radiographs.

Mandy'sMarty

One more question:

Looking at the photo of the pair of shod feet, I see what appears to be evidence of rasping on the hoof wall of the left foot. The rasping appears to be over the front face of the hoof and across to the quarter...but it appears to avoid the toe above breakover. Could this explain the apparent difference in the 'taper' due to a difference in perspective of the two radiographs?

I'm not challenging your premise about damage caused by rasping the dorsal wall. I'm just working at squeezing as much documentation from these images.

Hertha

Well, I know little about this, but how does the heel of that shod foot in the picture have any chance of contacting the ground unless it lives in deep mud?

All the farriers I've watched shoe my horses in the past did what PasoBaby describes. None of them rasped outer hoof wall more than she explained - to bevel off the front.

Newfman

Newfman

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PasoBaby_CarolU

I hope you all don't mind getting this thread back on topic, helping Jody with her horse, and QUIT FIGHTING with each other. No one is going to convince another to change anything. So, state your suggestion...and MOVE ON!
cussing

Newfman

That makes it easy.

Newfman

It was just brought to my attention, the certified trimmer was an AANHCP trimmer, not a NB Trimmer. I mixed up my certifications as sometimes I think and type at two very different speeds. I don't always catch when I have thought and typed two different things. The AANHCP trimmer was putting on a public demo. He was sculpturing a hoof, as opposed to trimming. He rasps the walls and carves out the soles. He isn't the only one though, not by a long shot.

There was a NB Trimmer/ Farrier there as well. We stood side by side wincing at what we saw. The only thing that stopped us from grabbing the rasp away from this uninformed individual was he was demonstrating on his own horse. Instead, we had to quit watching and went back to the farriers van and hung out and chatted about trimming hooves. I told him I was into barefoot trimming but wanted a farriers perspective. Not wanting to be ignorant of the otherside. So, I met up with him and spent the day as he went on his rounds. He was very informative. I was real impressed with his shoeing technique and the finished product. Admittedly, I wasn't so thrilled with his trim style, but, hey, I wasn't looking to marry him. We came from different schools of thought.

So, my apology for mixing up the two certs. May I also point out, the issue was with the individual, not all AANHCP trimmers, so you guys can keep your pants on as well. Again, it was the only rad that I found that showed what I was talking about. Sorry it had a shoe on it. Y'all made it about farriers, and made it personal.

By the way, the Farrier. . .was George Spear. Natural Balance trimmer, Natural Balance Farrier. Really nice guy. You should actually take the time to meet him Forge. And if you think this story is bull. . .call him. He's listed.

My apologies to Barnelda for this thread getting hi-jacked and ending up in turmoil. It was very unprofessional. Just wanted it to be correct for the record, and to clear up my own error.

ForgeNHammer

I talk to George probably once a week.

Newfman

Tell him I said hello.

barnelda

Crack that whip Carol LOL

I got my boot yesterday.I could only ride for a bit over an hour but Patches had no rub marks at all.He did walk a bit funny the first few strides but his gaits were much better on the road than with shoes.When he had shoes on he wouldn't even try to get more than a walk (even on the way home)and if I made him he would stumbled.Since I have to road ride we go up the road so far then turn around and come back.Patch didn't want to walk on the way back which is unusual for him so I think he likes the boots.He is also walking heel first with the boots.Most of the time he walks toe first.

I was just told since all the rides lost the trails on State game lands this rides trails are mostly gravel roads.He's gonna get sore I just know it.I guess I just have to wait and see.I am glad I got the straps though!The boots aren't quite as snug in the front as the fit kit was

Other than that they fit nice and snug.I will remember the nylons too!

AANNDD I got the Pete Ramey book but I'm kind of disappointed that all the pics are black and white.I hope I'll see all the detail I need to.I'm going to take it along to camp.The hoof on the back of the book though looks AWESOME!I want my horses to have hooves like that!!!!!

bit

Hey, I just got some compression socks at Wal Mart to use with my hoof boots, so I'll let ya'll know how they work. The boots do rub on Eclipse, and Gunner. I used knee highs and duct tape with Gunny, but he shredded the knee highs. Hoping the compressions socks hold up. They are super thin and very strong. Might have to cut the toe out. Boots sure do open up the possibilities, don't they?