Stocks and Picking Up Those Hooves

thelmanelle · Stocks and Picking Up Those Hooves

I have thought about this for a long time. I saw some stocks last year in Montana for draft horses to help the farrier and vet, as needed.

Belle and Bob are great on the hooves finally after a long time and patience. But, by the time you get to the last hooves, they start the jerk game.

My farrier is a small, thin man and he is kind. I do not want to lose him.

Next is Dolly. She lunges forward to throw both front hooves the entire time and we are a year together in October, I believe.

She is fine with both rear hooves.

So I have actually ordered a pair of stocks, because I see my TWHs give their hooves without complication. But, when a 2000# plus draft horse pulls your arms and back as I see it, there has to be a better way.

So I talked with a guy who is Amish that was doing a harnessing clinic using some PNH methods or NH methods and we discussed stocks. He said, he always used stocks with all his draft horses because they do weigh so much and it does save your back, etc.

I decided it was time to give it a try. I let you know how it goes and do feel free to give me advice if you have ever used them or seen them used.

I just know the draft horse requires a little help for my farrier and maybe if I ever had a hoof that I needed to soak or pack, it might be my best investment.

CoolsLadyInRed

No foot wrestling a draft horse for sure! My farrier would be gone if he had to handle a non compliant big horse.

The last time he was here Lady was a bit sassy and the farrier was crabby to begin with. I was glad when the trim was over. Stocks sound like a good idea. How does that help with keeping them from pulling their feet away?

Clarissa

So long as the horse was introduced to the stocks as being a good helpful thing for the horse I see no problem. If the horse can see that the stocks will help it hold it’s leg up better then there shouldn’t be any problem. But I have seen drafts go berserk in them & do themselves a deal of injury. Once they are cast in the race there is little you can do with such a large animal.

During my jillaroo years I worked on a cattle & sheep station that used to be run using draft horses for plowing & harvesting lucerne paddocks, pulling wool wagons & timber jinkers & delving bore drains. There were several strings of horses employed there because it was a big property. Each string had it’s own handlers with some strings being 40 strong. It employed blacksmiths/farriers, saddler & a harness maker, apart from the usual windmill mechanics, engineers, bore pullers, & all the other various tradesmen & ancillery staff. It was a big place that employed over 100 people between the outside & household staff.

There were several sets of horse yards, some with stables or feed/day/night/tacking pens & others for training or breaking. Beside the training yards was the blacksmiths shop & a set of 10 shoeing stocks all made as all stock yards were in the 18&1900’s of bush timber posts & round or split rails. The stocks was a set of narrow horse sized pens as wide as a horse float stall, built of bush timber posts & removable round rails & split rails with a special rail at my hip height that had a series of holes all along the top of it.

Apparently the horse was penned & tied, then the leg to be worked on was lifted & hooked behind the peg which fitted in a hole so the horse could stand comfortably but not pull it’s leg away. The hoof pointed outwards so the smithy could work on it. The smithy could then remove the other rails on that side to work on that hoof to shoe or trim. The blacksmith would have fitted handmade hot shoes. I was always intrigued by why there were 10 stalls!! Would that have meant there must have been 10 blacksmiths at some time? Perhaps 1 smithy & several apprentices? But obviously it was designed to have 10 horses in at a time. Yes it was a big property that used a lot of horse power, literally.

I could have easily spent the rest of my life on that cattle station. There were so many sheds & huts, yards & old buildings with all manner of old stuff in them, mostly going to waste or rotting. Many complete harnesses hung rotting in one bower hut. I counted almost 50 draft bridles hanging on a wall in another stable, the blacksmiths tools just laying there beside the furness after all those years going rusty. Handmade barbed wire rolls, handmade bits, handmade tools of all descriptions, old delving plows, handmade scarifiers, scufflers, plows discs, tines, swingle bars, haimes, old buggies, wagons, everything just going to waste. Everything I ever wanted in life was there but it didn’t belong to me & the owners just treated it as junk & often used to have huge bonfires to burn it all. There were massive wool wagons & timber jinkers laying all over the property.

Enough to make a person cry back then & still.

thelmanelle

I hear ya! I touch this very gently because I have though long a hard and talked with quite a few people. I do not want to do the force and drug, etc. I do want to keep my farrier and I want my horses to get a good trim.

I hope to gradually introduce them to the stocks as a trailer experience of back and forth and close and open . Stay and be brushed and let out.

Later, stay be brushed, pick up one hoof, go out. If it gets to be any tenseness, I want to be able to get them out asap, in a calm manner.

I did have a gentleman tell me he did have a horse flip on him in stocks and while the horse was okay, he had to take the stocks apart...but, he said that he had forced the horse in the situation.

That I do not want to do. I know the hooves are my responsibility. Honestly, my weight, they laugh at , basically.

Again, open for advice as I know the farrier can get it done, but how long does he want to stay.

He says, "You used to be my favorite client, until..."

So we are talking Belles that before me never got done 4, 6 and 13 years old. We've come a long way, but...I don't want to lose the farrier and I want the Belles to be trimmed.

My wash rack already has rails where we can do forward stop and backward out to play being in stocks. The rails were designed for the vet and farrier in mined.

The difference is the stocks support the hoof some the weight is not on the farrier's back. And, the horse learns to stand for the farrier and maybe is eventually not needed?

But, I have heard that there is a draft horse stand that farrier's use also.

Anyone seen one of those?

thelmanelle

No time wasting. I sent the check and the Amish gentleman called and says on the truck and here in about two days!

Anyways, I have been asking questions....mine are wooden stocks made of white oak. He suggest I put them between one of my wash rack rails and told me that the escape is on both the front and back.

But, I have another concrete pad that is alone without rails that might be even better. It would be a open pad for the stocks and I could put a shelter over it for bad weather or the sun. There is a hose nearby for cleaning the stocks off.

I can put a water seal on the wood. I am excited and a bit nervous. I think I will introduce it to all my horses, so not to scare them.

sebocat

Stocks certainly have their place, but they can be damned dangerous if you aren't very careful.

I was helping a farrier shoe a Perch gelding that usually wasn't overly difficult, but they used the stocks anyway. He got to feeling claustrophobic, and freaked out in the stock. He went up and over backwards and we had to drug him and use a tractor to get him out. He was pretty beat up.

I'll never use stocks for foot work again.

Bob was bad about his feet at first. Patience and persistence. I did TONS of friendly with ropes, carrot stick, etc. It helped a lot. I also played a game in a round pen at liberty later. I'd pick up a foot, if he was good, he could stay and rest. If he took his foot away, He worked. I'd run him and he'd do lots of direction changes. He only rested when his foot was in my hand. It worked awesome.

I did his feet myself, I used a regular hood stand, and did fine. You might also try clicker training to really reinforce good behavior with the feet.

thelmanelle

Thanks, Suz. I really am going to doing a lot of tight quarters can you stand with my wash rack rails and block the front and back seeing if when the others horses are near if will be a safer feeling. I know when I have them trimmed I do keep the pasture buds around for calmness.

I know they are coming and have to be assembled, but it is going to be a slow go at this process if it happens at all.

This is the kind of thing I need to hear about and prepare myself for or to accept it might not be the thing.

I do want to do a search on the huge farrier stand for the draft horse.

sebocat

The stand made a HUGE difference.

CoolsLadyInRed

. I also played a game in a round pen at liberty later. I'd pick up a foot, if he was good, he could stay and rest. If he took his foot away, He worked. I'd run him and he'd do lots of direction changes. He only rested when his foot was in my hand. It worked awesome.

This is what I saw in a very difficult horse that pawed and struck out in a Chris Cox video. If he didn't want to stand still CC moved him in the round pen or at the end of a lead. He stood eventually and just needed to be shown how to stand nicely.

The release was the answer.

Clarissa

Thele are the stocks steel panel type? The old ones I have seen were all wooden so there was no rattling like with steel panels & the rail with the holes for the pegs was lined with sheep skin wool side up.

All that rattling seems to set horses off no end which gets louder the more they get tense.

thelmanelle

I wanted only wooden stocks.

Beth,
Thanks, I have to check that video out by Chris Cox.
I fault myself as I got horses trained to drive and wanted to keep them driving steady and slow.

But, now, it is hot and I can do something lessons on working with the hooves as you suggest.

I read an article about how in the past, one would bring the horses in from the farm work and that they were tired and willing to be handled and then, go to pasture, eat and drink water.

Here we have pasture pretties...that get a lot of time off because I am gardening, cleaning house, etc.

But, now that it is too hot to drive them, it is a good time for me to focus on the hooves.

The stocks are coming. I am going to secure them to the wash rack rail that is embedded in concrete on both sides near huge posts in the concrete and ground.

I plan to water seal them and have a covering to protect from weather and also, shelter for the farrier.

Once, I can get them comfortable with me around the hooves and me comfortable as well, I want to try to not use the stocks unless an emergency comes up where a hoof or two needs soaking,etc.

I truly appreciate the advice and sharing of thoughts on this matter.

i just got a call to discuss delivery. So...

thelmanelle

Julie

Goodness - do you not just teach them to hold their feet up like we do in the UK???

My farrier friiend shoes mainly drafts, and has never used such a thing! lol!

thelmanelle

Sorry, but I got them as already older and not taught...so I am doing back strokes to help the horses and the farrier. No, the previous owners did not do such. I do that with my young ones.

thelmanelle

Asking for advice here as help on the stocks and the stand to help both horses and farrier.

Thank you.

cokey

CoolsLadyInRed

cokey

You're welcome

It's one of those little tiny things that make a huge difference. It's a tip that was given to me by a 3* PP, Colt Starter Extraordinaire and ex-Farrier. He makes sure every young horse he has in for starting understands that once it's picked up it's feet and given it to him, he owns it until he chooses to put it down. Makes all the difference in the world. It really helps the horse turn loose in so many ways.

thelmanelle

I so agree with this on trimming and cleaning the hooves. Had not a single issues until I got horses that were older that no one ever touched their hooves.

We have been working with them over the last year, but it has been slow. They are huge drafts and holding them up is not like the usual horse.

They aren't mean. They have not been taught and now that I am comfortable with driving more than I was initially, I really need to get to the hooves which is why I started this thread.

I learned so much in the driving, but now, I have to go back to some basics for the hooves and it is not as easy as if they had been taught as younger foals that touching and lifting was okay. Unfortunately, I was not there to do that for them.

I got Flint at 7 weeks and both his mom and he were a bit hard to teach, but she was starving and willing. She desperately needed care.

cokey

I completely understand your dilemma, and in your case stocks may be the best answer.. Given that I'm currently nursing a very bruised thumb from taking my own advice whilst picking out a student's horses feet yesterday (she jumped sideways and squished it between her two forelegs!) I know how difficult it can be to hold onto a determined horse's foot!

becdubie

Hey maybe it's better for another thread...but I'd like to hear some tips about the horse that pulls away. I was out trying to trim my ollie today....he has a technique that I can't beat...he can ALWAYS get his hind feet away from me. He knows it...it's a pain..... everybody else will stand nicely and let me own their hoof..and Ollie will for a time but when he wants to he can almost always get it away from me. I can get it right back easy enough...but still.

Should we start another thread?

cokey

Use a rope.When he learns he can't get away from the rope, go back to using your hands.

thelmanelle

Actually Becky, I like the idea on this thread, because it is a thread open to advice on the same issue. I started it because I contemplated the stocks since last August.

Yes, the rope is a great idea. I, too, have tried that with good success on my smaller TWHs. The Belles are just heavier and more stout. But, not bad acting. They just do not want to help you when it comes to holding up the legs to do hoof cleaning and work.

becdubie

USE A ROPE!!!!! DUHHHH... thanks for the reminder.

Ok so I get how to use it for the fronts..... but what about the back.
I want my horses to leave their hoof in the hoof stand until I take it out. So what would you suggest? Would this sound like a good approach?

Attach the rope (with slip knot) around ankle, just below fetlock..then ask him to pick it up like normal. Put it in the stand and leave it if he tries to take it away then use the rope to keep it and put it back where it belongs. When he gives I set it down nicely in the hoof stand again?

PasoBaby_CarolU

BTW Becky, I've had great success using treats as rewards for letting me do their feet. Doing clicker/treat rewards would work great too. I've always been verbal, so "Good Boy/Girl" is my click. Of course you do need to watch food oriented horses who get a little too exuberant about handing you their foot...Bruiser did this.

As for the ropes...I remember a really good Savvy Club DVD on this subject. Just don't remember which one.

thelmanelle

Becky,
I change the name of the thread for your situation to be included in the discussion.

Now, you need to be getting in touch with me real soon!

PasoBaby_CarolU

Have you tried a hoof jack?

cokey

bit

Yep, used a cs first for Hawk, then the rope, (lots of friendly game, don't just loop the rope around the leg and pick it up) and then gave him a baby carrot every time he held it up nice. Didn't click at the time, said "good boy!" He took about a month and 1/2 to get to where he would ground tie for the trimmer. I still give him a baby carrot when he holds all four up nicely. Baby steps, reward even the slightest of tries and work on the horse's clock. Have fun, celebrate the good tries, and take lots of breaks.
Bit will pull away her front feet. Hawk will still occasionally lean on you. I learned this from t touch, and it works really well. If the horse begins to pull away, leans, or whatever (it's a brace if you think about it) with your thumb, tip the hoof so that it's facing up, towards you and vibrate the foot gently with your hand. It's pretty cool. They give their foot back and relax. Removing the brace, and making it feel good, makes for a very cooperative horse.

Horseshoe Creek

I think the clicker type training would work great in this situation. They are too big to try to outlast them when the big ones are in your hand.
I speak from experience when I give this tip... be sure you use the click or verbal marker when the hoof is in the air, not when they put in down or you'll end up with a horse who thinks putting their hoof down is what gives them the reward. Lesson learned for me!

PasoBaby_CarolU

That's a good point Chris...you'll never outlast a big horse, that's why I thought a hoof jack might help her.

Something else that might help is I make my horses hold their own feet up. I started this because my horses are small and they would get hurt by the farrier hoisting their back leg up so high. Most farriers react to the horse pulling by lifting the foot even higher and holding it there!

I experimented with them and found that if I let them find the position that was comfortable for them to hold it themselves, I actually have both hands free to work on the foot. Much easier on my back too. I have my farrier do this and have no more problems with my little mares fussing with him.

thelmanelle

I have been looking at hoof jack and wondered if anyone else had a opinion about it? It looks well made and easy to use and comfortable for the draft. It does not hold the rasps ,etc. due to the width of the base. Plus, some don't like it's width, but I am thinking for drafts just have the stand to make it easier and help with handing the rasp, etc.

Not cheap, but neither are the stocks and I want to keep my farrier!

One gentleman tells me his farrier has a special stand that the drafts like and he would take a picture of it for me. He says the entire hoof rests on it. I keep wondering if it is the hoof jack.

cokey

I'd love a hoof jack

And they do hold rasps - they've got a big round magnet on them.

Clarissa

A tip I was given which does seem to work on the hind legs is as follows:-
Run hand down hamstring (back of rump) to the hock & squeeze point of hock a la PNH to lift leg.

As horse lifts leg it will be tight so gently massage (by running your hand down the muscle slightly on the inside of the back of the leg) back & inside of hamstring with other hand whilst trying to hold loosely the pastern or whatever part of the hoof or lower leg you can hold, maybe just the cannon bone. Allow your hand to go with the horse’s foot. So if the horse draws it’s foot forward gently allow that without letting go then as your stroking of the hamstring relaxes the leg it will drop a bit & can be brought back to you & you can draw it out behind the horse a bit. Never force it further back or higher than the horse is willing to give or the horse will tighten again & draw the leg forward or kick your hand away.

The thing I learned many years ago is to never lift the leg more than the horse feels comfortable with. It seems to me that young horses or foals get almost tipped off their feet by over zealous handlers wrenching the leg way up in the air like they are about to shoe it. I still have to work really low on Cassie who flatly refuses to have her back leg raised higher than her hock. As I lift her back leg she draws it forward tightly then does an auto-response backward kick then releases the leg to me. I have never been able to work her through that or make it any better. Actually that is a huge improvement on her previous habit of wrenching it away & running away.

That behavior just seemed to start out of the blue. I imprinted her & during her first 6days of life I taught her the 7games until I could do them with just a string around her neck like Pat did with his foals running through the obstacle course. I also taught her to pick up all feet which she did in a very kindly fashion. Then she was left to get on with life for a while but as a 2yo she decided she didn’t want to give her feet anymore & this habit emerged. She is not the type of horse to be trained out or into of something. I can show her by doing the thing with other horses & she watches intently, then when she is ready she will make the change & demonstrate her newfound knowledge to me. So far she hasn’t made the change regarding her back feet although she is perfect with her front feet.

So each horse is different & various things work for different horses. Force never works.

becdubie

I have the h oof jack and love it. they have a pony size that I'm thinking of getting...even on it's lowest setting, it seems too high for Rusty in the back. He is a big horse 16 Hands but quite stiff with his hind legs...he clicks when he walks

Thanks for all the tips...I'll start working on Ollie over the next few weeks so that when he is ready for a trim it won't be such a PIA.

Carol...reading your post obout click treat....I realize I do use clicker training, but like you, I use "Good Boy" as my click. Rusty and Bubba respond well to treat training...but they are both introverted. Ollie....now Ollie just wants more treats......so his treat will have to be a scratch or someting I guess.

Gillies_mom

I trim a shire horse, who can be awkward at times. For him, he's been extremely happy with the hoof jack cradle for trimming the hinds, but for some reason won't keep his front hoof on it. So we use the jack at the rear and normal holding up front. He'll put his front upwards onto the jack for finishing, but not the rears! He's a riddle wrapped up in an enigma, but once I learnt his trimming rules, we got along fine, at his size I'm not arguing. All his previous farriers, gave up on him as they were trying to fight him instead of finding what worked.
Couldn't have managed without the hoof jack, I'm small, female and not too strong.
Someone who learnt to trim with my instructor had a set of stocks, they got trashed when a horse which was normally OK freaked out one day.

thelmanelle

All this is great information. Thank you!

One more question on the hoof jack, the draft horse size is what I'd be looking at as a possibility. I will still waterseal and build the stocks.

Maybe, practice some can we walk through this or not? Then, just decide whether they are usable or maybe the best bet for the farrier is the hoof jack.

Dolly extends both fronts, so she is probably the hardest with her front hooves.

Thanks for such great advice and tips.

thelmanelle