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PasoBaby_CarolU

Summer Clinics?

This forum hasn't seen a lot of action lately.  I thought I'd see if anyone has attended any clinics this spring or summer and done anything further along this line?

I bought the BB colt starting and ground working DVDs and watched them.   A lot has changed with BB in 20+ years...he's much better now then the colt starting DVD.   I did have a lot of luck applying, primarily the Send Through with Buddy, to get him focused and calm.  It IS a good exercise and I'm glad to add it to my 'quiver.'

Anyone else working in this direction and care to share?
Sunny

Unfortunately, most of the people in this category split when the Leah thing went down.

Kathleen left the forum also, so there went our inspiration to share.

You just can't have "good" discussions on this level of horsemanship without the people that are actually walking the walk.  

It's a bummer for those wanting to learn, but there are some other good forums where you can get this information, for anyone interested.  

I miss all of those contributors who left, it's just not the same, for me.  That's why I voted to keep the farrier forum.
Sunny

double post.....
Sunny

triple post... d**m internet
PasoBaby_CarolU

I have talked to every new member for months now (screening for trolls) and there are several other members (new and old) pursuing this direction.   You bring up a good point though Carol, this forum was originally started at Ann's request, to be a 'classroom' for Kathleen and Bridle Horse training.   The teacher has left for other arenas, but that doesn't mean there aren't still students here, learning from other teachers, who wish to share and help each other.  

Maybe we should change the description?  

I understand Ann has deserted us too, so there really is no point in keeping it a classroom.   Maybe an Open Discussion Forum, like the rest of the Board?

Everyone's thoughts?
thelmanelle

I say change the description to allow for a more open discussion.  I am attending a dressage clinic this week-end with Alison Faso.  Yes, it is traditional, but it is not forced like one who would compare to Anky.

It would be great to discuss a variety of types of horsemanship, since we are growing in are ventures, IMHO.

My barn is very fun, positive and encouraging whether I choose to show or not. The lessons and time are very rewarding.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Great idea....I was going to keep it on Bridle horses, but no reason not to have threads on other disciplines.   The dressage has been in the biomechanics forum and the others 'lost' in General chat.  Perhaps putting them all in one area will help people find them and participate.
coveredbridgefarm

I don't know if this is the place for this question.

I also don't know if anyone is interested in this question but, given the level of emotion that seems to revolve around some clinicians(both positive and negative), I am starting to wonder if it's possible to become too clinician-dependent, if the term "clinic junkie" might not actually apply to some aspiring horse(wo)men, in a psychological sense. They have "withdrawal syndrome" about clinicians they've been involved with in the past, and they seem to have "fallen in love" with another. I'm wondering if there are people who can no longer do anything with their horse without a clinician either physically present or present in an imaginary sense.  

I have always felt that really good horsemanship includes a healthy dose of intuition but some of the people I know who attend a lot of clinics seem to not trust their own intuition any more(if they ever  did). Obviously, we can all learn from good horsemen but is it possible to become so reliant on outside sources, so mechanical in trying to follow a leader, that it retards our own independent development and specifically, our intuition?

Is there a line that gets crossed sometimes, maybe not for everyone but for some people, where clinics can become kind of self-defeating in terms of developing good overall horsemanship that does include a healthy bit of intuition?

Larry
PasoBaby_CarolU

I agree with you Larry, and was actually thinking of making this a different discipline study area...dressage, bridle horse, reining, colt starting...etc., so people who are "Graduating" from Parelli have one area to look at other studies that are available.   It can discuss clinics, clinicians, methods, etc.   Kind of one-stop shopping for graduate school.
Sunny

I would say, leave this forum as it is, and start another for each of the other diciplines, that way it won't get all mucked up and people can go to the specific area of their choosing.  

And I feel the Vaquero Bridle horse people aren't in "love" with just one clinician, there are sooo many people out there in this area to learn from, and they are all willing to share.  It's a whole different group and mind-set than those you've been familiar with in the past.  No one here drinks anyone's kool-aid from what I see.



Quote:
have always felt that really good horsemanship includes a healthy dose of intuition but some of the people I know who attend a lot of clinics seem to not trust their own intuition any more(if they ever  did). Obviously, we can all learn from good horsemen but is it possible to become so reliant on outside sources, so mechanical in trying to follow a leader, that it retards our own independent development and specifically, our intuition?


Isn't this what Parelli sells, isn't this what their program revolves around at it's very core? Isn't this what they bank on to keep going??? Especially with the people new to horses??? Parelli wants people totally reliant on their program, $$$$$$$-wise especially, as well as emotionally.
coveredbridgefarm

CarolL wrote:
Quote:
Isn't this what Parelli sells, isn't this what their program revolves around at it's very core? Isn't this what they bank on to keep going??? Especially with the people new to horses???
I definitely think Parelli does utilize the aphrodisiac of inspiration better than the others but, imho, they all have a "hook" of some kind to keep you coming back. Without repeat business, where would they be? That's not to say that they don't all have something substantive to offer someone. I'm not projecting any of them as evil people, only as someone trying to make a living in the business of horsemanship. It's just free enterprise. Haven't you ever known someone whose choice of a brand of car is personal to them(Chevy vs Ford, etc.) and observed that each company markets its products making full use of those personal feelings? It's kind of like that only more intense because horses are involved.

This is coming from someone who tends to believe in moderation in all things and who might attend a couple of clinics a year at the most. I have also never been to one that I didn't enjoy so this opinion is not the result of a "bad" experience.

Larry
jackspark

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
Great idea....I was going to keep it on Bridle horses, but no reason not to have threads on other disciplines.   The dressage has been in the biomechanics forum and the others 'lost' in General chat.  Perhaps putting them all in one area will help people find them and participate.


Just lurkin around and readin.  Separate threads on other disciplines, SURE!
It would make it easier to find what you're lookin for  As an example, all I'm interested in, right at the moment, is the first year of training......sure would be great to be able to hit a specific thread to ask my questions rather than muckin up the general or horse chats.  I would much more likely find an answer to my questions from people doing the same thing
AlythLong

I think separate threads would be great.    That way you can check out the thread for the discipline that you are interested in and skip the ones you aren't.  Alyth
thelmanelle

As for the clinic junkie, been to very few.  Lucky this was in my area. And at my barn. It was great!  Still more tomorrow.  But, I heard what she said, rode in the moment.  Later, was able to think about the issues of weakness on my left side and ask her about how she was trying to correct it and why that way.

I needed to see how she was seeing me in her eyes in the saddle...for example, my hands are too noisy, yet, I try to quiet them and build tension.  So, I have to turn my head left and right and flex my elbows while holding my horse at a gentle collection so I am not tense and hard on her.  

Also, a big discussion on my seat at the canter and I got the message after we went back and forth discussing it in the lesson. It was great insight.  Nice to ask, what are you seeing when I am doing this incorrectly on my weaker side, so I understand what you mean when we are correcting it.

That is useful to me, always and forever when riding from now on.  Another set on eyes.  Great!  Add that a a video and you got something to think about.

 
Thunder Hollow

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
I have talked to every new member for months now (screening for trolls) and there are several other members (new and old) pursuing this direction.   You bring up a good point though Carol, this forum was originally started at Ann's request, to be a 'classroom' for Kathleen and Bridle Horse training.   The teacher has left for other arenas, but that doesn't mean there aren't still students here, learning from other teachers, who wish to share and help each other.  

Maybe we should change the description?  

I understand Ann has deserted us too, so there really is no point in keeping it a classroom.   Maybe an Open Discussion Forum, like the rest of the Board?

Everyone's thoughts?


Ummmm...I'm still here.  I have been at a Buck clinic and putting up hay.

It wasn't just me that wanted this set up this way, though, remember?  It was me and Shannon and Kathleen.  We were all sick of trying to have a discussion about this but instead always having to defend from the naysayers, so we were hoping for a safe place.  When Shannon and Kathleen got kicked out, I couldn't very well have a conversation by myself.

We just took our conversations elsewhere.

Buck made a statement on Friday that spoke to me a lot:

"Casual study only makes you a master of blowing smoke up your ass."  My addition to this would be that serious study of casual horsemanship only makes you a Grand Poobah of .....

Well, after having been thoroughly smoked and spending about a year getting aired out, I've settled down to put in the serious study of serious horsemanship.

I guess what it comes down to, Carol, is that this is above all, YOUR forum, so you get to do what you want with it.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Well Ann, while you are correct, this is my forum, I do try to do what the members want, which is a free exchange of ideas.  

I did set this up originally as a Private Classroom for just you who wished to participate, but as you recall, there was no participation for weeks at a time, so we (and discussed with and approved by YOU) opened it up for the other members to participate, and as you see, many of them did.

I still haven't figured out why SOME people got so defensive about open discussion of Bridle Horse methods.  Open discussion of every OTHER NH and non-NH methods doesn't seem to make anyone defensive, just the Bridle Horse discussions.  So, some people don't believe in Spade bits....so what?  Some people don't believe in carrot sticks or snaps on the end of the 22' or side reins, or, or, or.   That is what an OPEN DISCUSSION is....open for opinions.   If people can't handle discussions then perhaps a Public Forum is not for them.   As Larry said in the Politics forum once, "Some people can't handle freedom."

If we all agreed with each other and there was no discussion, this would be a pretty dull place.
Thunder Hollow

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
Well Ann, while you are correct, this is my forum, I do try to do what the members want, which is a free exchange of ideas.  

I did set this up originally as a Private Classroom for just you who wished to participate, but as you recall, there was no participation for weeks at a time, so we (and discussed with and approved by YOU) opened it up for the other members to participate, and as you see, many of them did.

I still haven't figured out why SOME people got so defensive about open discussion of Bridle Horse methods.  Open discussion of every OTHER NH and non-NH methods doesn't seem to make anyone defensive, just the Bridle Horse discussions.  So, some people don't believe in Spade bits....so what?  Some people don't believe in carrot sticks or snaps on the end of the 22' or side reins, or, or, or.   That is what an OPEN DISCUSSION is....open for opinions.   If people can't handle discussions then perhaps a Public Forum is not for them.   As Larry said in the Politics forum once, "Some people can't handle freedom."

If we all agreed with each other and there was no discussion, this would be a pretty dull place.


There is a difference between a discussion and a classroom.  We had an opportunity here to learn about bridle horses from an actual instructor.  

Discussions are fine, and in them, yes, opinions are just fine and welcome.

But that is why we asked for separate spot, because we weren't looking for OPINIONS, we were looking for KNOWLEDGE.  The opportunity to gain knowledge was being lost and distracted from.  We never did want it 'private', what we wanted was a place for a classroom, where we could learn about a subject without it being constantly put down and criticized.

We were not given a 'safe' place to learn, not given the same kind of protection that, for example, the spirit forum was given.  So we went elsewhere.  Anyone curious can contact me privately, I'd suggest by email since I'll probably be kicked out of here soon, too.

This is all fine, it was clear that this just isn't the place that we were looking for, which was a true place to learn.  I have no problem with the fact that it didn't work out here, it just motivated us to create the spot that we were looking for.
cynthia peterson

To keep it or not? Well, just give it a bit more time and see how it goes.

I'm not much of a clinic goer. i do love Horse Fairs tho...

But I have been to a few. This year I went to a Brent Graef. Really, really love him. In keeping with the theme of this thread... Brent spent years in the Parelli program, as did his wonderful wife, Kris. he also spent time with Ronnie Willis, who Pat says "explained what Tom was telling Pat that he didn't understand" Ronnie also was Ray's best friend (according Pat) So I believe Brent had a good grasp on what the difference was between Parelli Program and Tom's original intent.

I also went to Dr Deb Bennett's Clinic @ Karmik this summer. No two personalities could be opposite as Brent's and Dr Debs! That said, it is very clear Dr Deb has a knowledge of Tom Dorrance's methods from personal experience from Tom himself. Whats more, no one had to explain Tom to her. She clearly said she had to "think" about it a few times for days, but she "got it" and she got it deeper then most anybody I have talked to about it. Besides her own knowledge, her stories of Tom (and not the same old ones everybody has heard and claim "they" were the one who heard it form Tom's own mouth) are simply mind blowing. I believe Tom was really the Tom we have been lead to believe, not just a legend.

I have everything of Buck's and have been to one clinic. I also plan on attending another one this year. The thing with Buck and ray is they are not into a lot of  explaining.  That's the whole problem there. If you once get the concepts, and you must get them in person with some kind of person or program IN PERSON that helps you,.... then you can go from there. I always think that's the thing that sold the Parelli program, the DVDs went a long ways toward the "explaining" part". And of course that's the downfall too, b/c some think viewing DVDs is all there is to it.

Mostly what I have attended in Clinics has been Dressage. Despite what you hear, there are some pretty knowledgeable clinicians there too.Thus Linda and Pat going to WAZ. I will plan on attending KarMik's Martin Black clinic this Fall. It is rumored Parelli had him there on the ranch for a cow clinic. C
PasoBaby_CarolU

Thunder Hollow wrote:


We were not given a 'safe' place to learn, not given the same kind of protection that, for example, the spirit forum was given.  So we went elsewhere.  Anyone curious can contact me privately, I'd suggest by email since I'll probably be kicked out of here soon, too.


Ann, I'm sorry you feel this way, I have really tried to accomidate you and Kathleen, doing everything you asked.  

I reviewed this entire T,B and R Forum and can't find any posts objectionable or inflammatory.  Some people asked questions of the "teacher."   If that's not allowed, then it isn't a classroom, it's a lecture hall.  I'm sorry you didn't feel SAFE here.

I wish you a safe and fulfilling journey and hope you are successful in your studies.
jackspark

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:


 Some people asked questions of the "teacher."   If that's not allowed, then it isn't a classroom, it's a lecture hall.  


Proper conclusion, nice distinction.
Kathleen

Carol,

Excuse me but, you KICKED ME OFF THIS BOARD on Feb 22, 2010 with no warning and no reason. Then you removed the thread that cause the stir so that no one could even figure out where the problem really was. Now you are publicly maligning my "lack of participation" on this forum as some sort of bad behaviour on my part.

There was NEVER a problem with people asking questions and you know it. The problem was the "fight" that always seemed to crop up every time we tried to discuss Bridle Horses. There are a group of people here that are openly AGAINST that style of horsemanship and they consistently interrupted  every attempt to talk about Bridle horses and related subjects. You, yourself felt the need to drag South American Paso Fino training methods into the Bridle Horse discussions at every turn,  which was also disruptive and not "appropriate" to the discussion. That is what Ann is talking about and why we are all happy to be someplace where favoritism and censorship are NOT ALLOWED.

ENOUGH!!! I have moved on and am available to those who are interested elsewhere.

Kathleen
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kathleen, I'm sorry you feel that way.  I never saw any discussion of Bridle Horse training on here as a "fight" any more then the discussions on carrot sticks or snaps have been fights.   For some reason some people took those things personally, and well, that just doesn't work on an Open Forum.  I don't censor people's opinions and I don't think it's fair to be expected to.  I'm sure you guys will be happy in your private forum where discussion is controlled.  

Apparently we have different definitions of "discussion."  That's okay.  It's a big world and a free Internet.  

Be that as it may, I hope you are successful and happy in the future.  I wish you all the best.
Kathleen

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
Kathleen, I'm sorry you feel that way.  I never saw any discussion of Bridle Horse training on here as a "fight" any more then the discussions on carrot sticks or snaps have been fights.   For some reason some people took those things personally, and well, that just doesn't work on an Open Forum.  I don't censor people's opinions and I don't think it's fair to be expected to.  I'm sure you guys will be happy in your private forum where discussion is controlled.  

Apparently we have different definitions of "discussion."  That's okay.  It's a big world and a free Internet.  


Carol,

I guess you and I define a lot of words differently, including "fight", "censorship" and "control." As I recall we had different interpretations of "bashing" vs. "truth" as well.

The "Becoming Horsemen" Forum is not "private" and anyone is welcome there, although you do need to sign up to post. I just noticed that Ann does have the "public view" setting wrong and I will have her fix that as soon as she gets home from Buck's clinic tonight.

Thanks for letting me clarify this so if anyone here is interested in joining in on our discussions they know they are welcome there. Kristie, who used to post here, also has a nice group called "hackamore to bridlehorses" and I pop in there from time to time as well.

Kathleen
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kathleen wrote:

The "Becoming Horsemen" Forum is not "private" and anyone is welcome there, although you do need to sign up to post. I just noticed that Ann does have the "public view" setting wrong and I will have her fix that as soon as she gets home from Buck's clinic tonight.

Thanks for letting me clarify this so if anyone here is interested in joining in on our discussions they know they are welcome there. Kristie, who used to post here, also has a nice group called "hackamore to bridlehorses" and I pop in there from time to time as well.

Kathleen


Well, now you guys have me totally confused.   First you were upset I didn't keep this Classroom forum private and controlled, and opened it for free discussion, so you left and set up your own private forum.   Now you're going to make it un-private and open to discussion.  

I don't see the difference, but whatever.  I wish you all great success on your forum.   I can't wait to read it.
Kathleen

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:


..... so you left .....


Carol,

I didn't leave, You kicked me off!!!!  Just sayin'.....

Kathleen

PS. I never wanted anything private. That is exactly why I am no longer on Leah's board.
PasoBaby_CarolU

Quote:
Carol,

I didn't leave, You kicked me out!!!!  Just sayin'.......

Have a nice day, time for me to get back to the horses instead of riding the internet all day.

Kathleen

PS. I never wanted anything private. That is exactly why I am no longer on Leah's board.


Who is "savvyponies" in California?  

I did not save the PMs, but I do know at Kathleen's (yours?) and Ann's request, this forum was Private for several months.  The lack of participation comment was not directed at Kathleen personally, but at all members of the forum.   It would go weeks with no posts.   I discussed this with Ann and WE AGREED to make it Public to allow more participation.  

I did deactivate your account for a few days, based on comments made in the AC thread (which I was told to lock by my attorney), but reactivated you at Ann's request (obviously).  You have since participated, since you came in and deleted all your posts.  

Shall we just call this chapter "over" and go on our separate ways?  You guys can delete your alter egos on this forum, because I am not deactivating you without cause.
thelmanelle

Well, I had a great week-end.  Learned so much about how to sit the canter as I was leaning outside and not on Summer centered on the left lead.  It is so great to have a second pair of eyes to see you.  So to correct my weak side, I was to drop my right rein to her withers and let my left rein be inside the circle and ask her with my left leg to move away and stay on the circle if she tried to come in.  Yet, on occasion if I felt the canter start to break to a trot gently slide my foot back to ask her to continue the canter.  

This at the same time while doing relaxation exercises in the saddle to be sure I was not tense and holding her tight.  Things like turning my head side to side, while making my hands lay like they were turning a key in the lock , and loosening my elbows along with my hips and knees off of her.

It was very hot and humid and I was so grateful, because after the ride two people came and untacked her and cooled her down while I got water.  Not the normal situation for me.  But, they saw how much we were working and learning and wanted to help us.   It was very nice to have her look inside the circle at me and outside at me.  

BTW, we did more than circles, but that was the focus of my left side problem that I needed to address for her benefit.

It was a good horse day!
AlythLong

Well done Thelmanelle,  what sort of lesson were you having?  It sounds as though you both worked really hard and had heaps of helpful back up - that's exactly what life should be like!!!
thelmanelle

It was a dressage clinic with two days of lessons.  The wonderful part was being able to ask a question about my weakness and what the trainer could see me doing as a picture for me to see and then, tell me we would work on correcting it the next day.  


That was great because I came out not feeling bad abut myself and knew that we were going to work on fixing my faults with my horse, so I could see how it felt and physically change what I was doing.  

It was hard, but it was great information.  Yes, my horse was so quickly cared for immediately and I was able to get water immediately. It worked they way all day for other riders.  We ended up helping each other because it was so hot...while watching and learning.

Time to do laundry...  
kristie

Re: Summer Clinics?

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
This forum hasn't seen a lot of action lately.  I thought I'd see if anyone has attended any clinics this spring or summer and done anything further along this line?

I bought the BB colt starting and ground working DVDs and watched them.   A lot has changed with BB in 20+ years...he's much better now then the colt starting DVD.   I did have a lot of luck applying, primarily the Send Through with Buddy, to get him focused and calm.  It IS a good exercise and I'm glad to add it to my 'quiver.'

Anyone else working in this direction and care to share?


I went to the Californios in May.  Does that count? I met so many talented people there--really, nice people.  Neil Pye from Parelli was there and Atwood Ranch was a sponsor of the event.  

I'm planning on going to a Ricky Quinn clinic next weekend and possibly a Buck Brannaman clinic next month.

I'm still working my way through Karen Rohlf's book and applying her exercises to my Bridle horse development.  I've got 1 horse in the 2-rein so far.

Oh, and I've got my 3 month old foal and his mama that are keeping me busy.
whisperingwindfarms

Kristie,

Are you going to Tryon next weekend?  My dear friend, Janet, is riding in the mornings.  I may come up and watch if you're going to be there too.

Erin
alexwein

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
I don't know if this is the place for this question.

I also don't know if anyone is interested in this question but, given the level of emotion that seems to revolve around some clinicians(both positive and negative), I am starting to wonder if it's possible to become too clinician-dependent, if the term "clinic junkie" might not actually apply to some aspiring horse(wo)men, in a psychological sense. They have "withdrawal syndrome" about clinicians they've been involved with in the past, and they seem to have "fallen in love" with another. I'm wondering if there are people who can no longer do anything with their horse without a clinician either physically present or present in an imaginary sense.  

I have always felt that really good horsemanship includes a healthy dose of intuition but some of the people I know who attend a lot of clinics seem to not trust their own intuition any more(if they ever  did). Obviously, we can all learn from good horsemen but is it possible to become so reliant on outside sources, so mechanical in trying to follow a leader, that it retards our own independent development and specifically, our intuition?

Is there a line that gets crossed sometimes, maybe not for everyone but for some people, where clinics can become kind of self-defeating in terms of developing good overall horsemanship that does include a healthy bit of intuition?

Larry


I like this post! I think it can be a matter of personality to a degree, because I've never been one to take anything or anyone totally at face value or 100%.  I think it can be dangerous to one's emotional and spiritual health (and maybe physical too!) to not question and not integrate what you learn into your own mode of doing things.  Take what you learn and make it your own, like that.

I do think there is another layer to this question, though. For me, I know my own life experience has taught me to not rely on other people past a certain point.  Not because they are wrong or bad, but simply because they are human and like me, they are fallible.  I am not perfect at this! I still have life lessons to learn about standing in my own power and being able to speak from that place. I think working with horses teaches me this every day--how to stand in my own power, control my own energy, and not be so reactive to what comes to me externally.  Clearly the latter is still an issue for me!  But it stems from where I am in myself.  If am clear about who I am and am coming from a place of being centered in that, I could not be so easily knocked off balance by what someone else does or says.

I liken it to a tree--one whose roots go deep and are strong and one whose roots are on the surface.  What happens when a big wind comes along to the former, to the latter.  So I want my roots to go deep, which requires a lot of self-examination and self-awareness.  

From that place, no matter what a clinician says or does, it either fits for me or doesn't, and it becomes more about what they are transmitting than about them.  There are limits to what I'd find acceptable about a person's personal life.  One of the greatest philosophers on the planet, Martin Heidegger, was a Nazi sympathizer, and after finding that out, it did affect the way I saw him and felt about him.  It would be the same with any teacher.

But there is still a lot of room for a teacher to be human!  So to me, it's a matter of maturity and discrimination, and being in one's own personal power--being able to take in what a clinician has to offer, and not have to concern myself about the rest.

I think this is a very interesting question, because I do think it can be very damaging to become over reliant on any teacher and give up one's own intuitive ability. I'm not a huge Dr. Phil fan, but I remember him saying 'don't substitute my judgment for your own.'  I thought that was very good advice!
cynthia peterson

Kathleen, we sure do miss you. I always enjoyed your input. Do you have a link to the forums you do post on.

And to all the other posters... I love to read your Clinic reports. it was interesting to hear Neil Pye was at the Californios.  I like Neil. And the Atwood was a sponser. I know EH magazine always raves over that event. I certainly count EH knowing where the real horse masters are at!

And kathleen, I bet you seen that flap over the UK tour coming all along eventually...
Kathleen

cynthia peterson wrote:
Kathleen, we sure do miss you. I always enjoyed your input. Do you have a link to the forums you do post on.

And kathleen, I bet you seen that flap over the UK tour coming all along eventually...


Hi Cynthia and Thanks for the kind words.

I miss contributing here too, but I never try to force my ideas and philosophy where it is not welcome and for some here it was not welcome.

I will mainly be present on the Becoming Horsemen board the link is  http://becominghorsemen.myfastforum.org/  It is now publicly viewable as Ann (ThunderHollow) fixed that issue this morning.

I also keep tabs on Hackamore to Bridlehorses at  http://hackamoretobridlehorses.myfastforum.org/  It is a pretty small group at this point, but is focused on the Bridle Horse progression and so I do try to offer comments when I think my experience might be helpful.

As far as the Catwalk situation goes, I have been reading some of the posts and saw the very short video clip. I do have a number of thoughts and plan to write about them hopefully today if I get the time. I will post that on Becoming Horsemen when I get to it.

I hope to "see" you over there.

Thanks Again,

Kathleen
PasoBaby_CarolU

Kristie (and anyone else) there is a Yahoo Group for Californio's  

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Californio/

I saw a Doma Vaquera years ago demoing as part of a California Paso Fino show.   I talked to the man and found out about the Californios, and while searching more information, ran into this Group.   There are many trainers there, loads of information on training, books, videos and equipment.  I've learned a lot reading these pages.  

I was told in California, they have quite a group of them and get together for horsemanship contests, to see who can do the most with his horse with the least amount of cue.   This is such a fun goal, and a challenge I frequently try both on the ground and in the saddle.  

How light can you be?
coveredbridgefarm

Alex wrote:
Quote:
I like this post! I think it can be a matter of personality to a degree, because I've never been one to take anything or anyone totally at face value or 100%.  I think it can be dangerous to one's emotional and spiritual health (and maybe physical too!) to not question and not integrate what you learn into your own mode of doing things.  Take what you learn and make it your own, like that.

I do think there is another layer to this question, though. For me, I know my own life experience has taught me to not rely on other people past a certain point.
I didn't think I was the only one who had wondered about this. And I agree that dependency is probably not limited to horsemanship. It probably reflects a general life pattern. You can't have a master clinician beside you all of the time, unless you're Linda Parelli(hmmmmm, how's that working out?)(well, pretty good, but................).  
When is she going to ride another horse as well as she rides Remmer?

Maybe she needs time away from her clinician? You know, to develop her intuition.  Maybe she's not the only one. This is not intended as an attack on Linda(I would not want to have to learn under her level of public scrutiny). I'm just wondering if some people might not be too dependent on their clinician. Can you spend too much time around a really good clinician and can your own intuitive development suffer as a result of it? Just wondering. Depends on the student, and the clinician, obviously.

Anyway, your own intuition has to kick in eventually because, in the end, as you advance,  the dynamics of horsemanship involved are such that you don't always have time to check with your clinician. You often have to make decisions in the moment. No time to check those little booklets that came with the Parelli levels programs that helped in the beginning either. Sometime, sooner or later, all you're going to have to rely on will be your intuition.

Which clinicians do the best job of getting a student to trust themselves? To develop an independent mind as well as an independent seat? Just wondering.

Larry
whisperingwindfarms

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Which clinicians do the best job of getting a student to trust themselves? To develop an independent mind as well as an independent seat? Just wondering.


Brent Graef of the ones I have met personally.
coveredbridgefarm

Thanks, Erin. I might be able to go see him in August. Maybe. It's a time issue.

Harry Whitney also, possibly?

Larry
thelmanelle

Maybe some folks are going to clinics a lot?  Who knows?  I personally don't have the time or money, but I saved up and prepared for one.  But, I am not upset that someone can or can't go.   That being said, I have been to some in my past and learned from them.  So what?  I still do things on my own and take good information and leave the bad.

This time I got some really good stuff about myself...to be a better rider for my horse.  

No harm done.  IMHO.

I do the same with my plow clubs...everyone has a different opinion... you have to decide in the end.
whisperingwindfarms

Larry,

In my one experience with Buck, I did not feel that he was encouraging people to become his groupies.  Quite the opposite but I was only an auditor that one time.  Perhaps those who have spent more time with him can speak to that.  I would guess - and this is speculation only - that since Brent has spent so much time with Buck that some of the philosophies are the same.  Brent's last words to me when I was leaving the clinic were "Trust yourself and you'll be fine".

I'm not doing any clinics with anyone this year (except Julie Robins who is local and not $1000 for a weekend).  I'm saving to see if I can afford to go to Brent's Young Horse Handling Clinic in Texas next Spring.

Erin
coveredbridgefarm

Erin, good on Brent, and Buck too, apparently. I know you have to learn before you can trust yourself but if you can't learn to trust yourself, your horse probably won't trust you either.

Brent Graef said:
Quote:
Trust yourself and you'll be fine
Those are words that I don't think I have ever heard a clinician say to anyone. But I don't go to that many clinics either so don't take it as an indictment against clinicians.

Larry
alexwein

whisperingwindfarms wrote:
coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Which clinicians do the best job of getting a student to trust themselves? To develop an independent mind as well as an independent seat? Just wondering.


Brent Graef of the ones I have met personally.


Absolutely yes, you beat me to it. Brent told me several times and again in a follow up email to 'trust my instincts.'  I think he cultivates this in his students because he really believes that HE does not know everything, nor does he always knows what's best.  But he suggests and offers what he does know and lets you, me in this case!, decide if it fits.

That is why I trust him more than other teachers. I don't feel he has an agenda and his own ego is not involved.  Not saying others do have an agenda, just that's how he hits me.  I feel a lot of permission with him to try things out, find what works for me, for my horse.  I found his comments to be very validating.
alexwein

Brent's clinic in May was my very first clinic ever.  Have ridden horses, shown them, and even trained some, but never took a clinic in my entire life.  I heard about Brent from a friend and from what I could see, he was teaching something I wanted to learn!  In the line of Bill Dorrance, Mark Rashid and others I had been reading. My experience with Brent was wonderful and I'm signed up for two more clinics plus his Young Horse Handling clinic.  

I love Brent's style of teaching, his manner, his sense of humor, and what he teaches.  He is not the only one.  I want to go to a Buck B clinic and experience Mark Rashid as well.  When I get Dakota farther along, there are others I'd like to try, like Karen Rohlf. I'm taking it slowly and one step at a time.  Feeling my way through all of this, because there is a lot out there!
bit

Will be going to the Brent Graef clinic in August with Kelsey and a friend of mine who bought my paint mare, Bunny.  Can.  Not.  Wait.  Is Harry Whitney coming to the midwest soon?  I'd love to clinic with him if I manage to gather the funds.  His apprentice, Ty Haas is located in Lawrence, Ks. and is much more affordable.  He will be giving a "barn sour" clinic on the 24th.  It's 60.00, you bring two horses and another rider to help your horse feel comfortable leaving a herd member.  I think the clinic will be in Ottawa, Ks which is just south of Topeka.  
Larry, hope to see you at the BG clinic.  Would love to meet you and your horse.
coveredbridgefarm

Deb wrote:
Quote:
Larry, hope to see you at the BG clinic.  Would love to meet you and your horse.
Deb, I hope to make it but the rainy weather is really slowing up my haying operation(I live on a small farm and put up my own hay). Brent's clinic isn't far away now, is it? If I go, it will be as an auditor(I hope he takes auditors). I like auditing, especially the first time or two for each clinician. I haven't been riding lately anyway because of a health issue.

I checked Harry Whitney's schedule and he isn't scheduled to come very close to our area. He has been in Tennesse lately and is now going to various other parts of the country. Interesting about his apprentice, Ty Haas, in Lawrence.

Larry
kristie

whisperingwindfarms wrote:
Kristie,

Are you going to Tryon next weekend?  My dear friend, Janet, is riding in the mornings.  I may come up and watch if you're going to be there too.

Erin


Yes, that is the one I am going to.  Hope to see you there!
whisperingwindfarms

Larry - If you get to audit, make sure you sit near his wife, Kris.  You can learn a lot of from her while watching Brent.  She is awesome in her own right.
alexwein

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Deb wrote:
Quote:
Larry, hope to see you at the BG clinic.  Would love to meet you and your horse.
Deb, I hope to make it but the rainy weather is really slowing up my haying operation(I live on a small farm and put up my own hay). Brent's clinic isn't far away now, is it? If I go, it will be as an auditor(I hope he takes auditors). I like auditing, especially the first time or two for each clinician. I haven't been riding lately anyway because of a health issue.

I checked Harry Whitney's schedule and he isn't scheduled to come very close to our area. He has been in Tennesse lately and is now going to various other parts of the country. Interesting about his apprentice, Ty Haas, in Lawrence.

Larry


He definitely takes and welcomes auditors.  He interacts with them as well.  If you can audit, go!  I think you'll find it well worth the time.
cheerios

whisperingwindfarms wrote:
 I'm saving to see if I can afford to go to Brent's Young Horse Handling Clinic in Texas next Spring.

Erin




Erin,

I've toyed with the idea of going to one of his young horse clinics.
Mainly b/c I'm in TX so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch or expense to get there.

Have you heard any feedback from others who have attended his young horse clinic?
alexwein

cheerios wrote:
whisperingwindfarms wrote:
 I'm saving to see if I can afford to go to Brent's Young Horse Handling Clinic in Texas next Spring.

Erin




Erin,

I've toyed with the idea of going to one of his young horse clinics.
Mainly b/c I'm in TX so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch or expense to get there.

Have you heard any feedback from others who have attended his young horse clinic?


Well, I'm going to one!  The latter one in March that has a wait list.  But I know there are two more openings in the earlier March class.

I have talked to several folks who have done the YH class when at Brent's clinic.  They described it as life-changing and a spiritual experience!  That was enough for me. Brent talked about how you can really see just how light a horse can be before we interfere with things so much. I also think it will be great fun.  Brent is a very light, immensely funny guy, and the folks he seems to attract have no ego and no agenda other than learning about horses and having fun. Of course, I've only been to one clinic, so we'll see how that works out!
cheerios

alexwein wrote:

Well, I'm going to one!  The latter one in March that has a wait list.  But I know there are two more openings in the earlier March class.

I have talked to several folks who have done the YH class when at Brent's clinic.  They described it as life-changing and a spiritual experience!  That was enough for me. Brent talked about how you can really see just how light a horse can be before we interfere with things so much. I also think it will be great fun.  Brent is a very light, immensely funny guy, and the folks he seems to attract have no ego and no agenda other than learning about horses and having fun. Of course, I've only been to one clinic, so we'll see how that works out!


Cool!

Thanks for the info. I am considering the 1st one in march, that's when my spring break is.

He's doing several clinics near Dallas this fall that I'd like to at least audit, so I can see his style. But, I think I'll have to decide fairly quickly if I want to go in March, as it looks like his clinics fill up fast!

This past winter we had about a dozen yearlings and two year olds that were previously unhandled that gave me a crash course in young horse handling. I would love to be able to improve my skills and learn from a master. I've heard nothing but good things about Brent.

Do you know what age horses they use for the clinics?
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