Summer OTTB HiLo and toe crack

Newfman · Summer OTTB HiLo and toe crack

I started this from http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic3797-0-asc-30.php the hoof crack thread, just so it is easier to keep the cases separated due to separate issues, and to make it easier to follow and find.

So, the concern is a small hoof crack in the toe of thelmanelle's horse Summer. As I understand it, Summer is an OTTB (off track thoroughbred) and had a career racing but for an undetermined length of time, and then became a Three Day Eventer. As is typical for horses in this carrer path, she was shod, most likely, continuously. As is also pretty common for these horses, maintaining weight can be an issue.

With horses that have questionable hoof quality, it is important, IMHO, to keep them off the high sugar feeds. Maybe a "Cool Calorie" type feed? Something that has good calories without sugar and molasses. I am also liking Biotin and Metionine supplements e.g. Nu-Hoof Maximizer. It is pretty focused on being a hoof supplement and is pretty economical.

I looked over the photos and I believe the crack is incidental to a bigger issue.

Right Fore

Left Fore

The red arrows are just showing the long toes. As I had mentioned on the other thread, I have yet to see a horse that can't grow heel. Summer is no exception. There is lots of heel. The problem is that it is not under the back of the foot. The heel is run way forward to the blue arrows. If they aren't dealt with, they will continue in that direction. To me, this is classic race horse. It is the same thing with the standard breds. It is a set-up for navicular syndrome and all of it's little friends, Ring bone, side bone etc.

When heels grow and are pounded against steel, they don't just stop growing. They slip forward. They are cold forged and beaten into that shape. Just like cold forging steel. There are a lot of lamness inducing things that can happen inside the foot when the hoof capsule is in this condition. The whole hoof capsule starts to shift forward, getting ahead of the foot within. This is going to require getting the toes back and drawing the heels back and really keeping up with it. Hoof x-rays would show coffin bone angles and make for safer changes. I would also like to see photos of the soles. I assume there is a bit of heel contraction. That is almost a given.

As far as the Hi-Lo thing. . .you can't trim the feet to match each other. You have to treat each foot individually. Work each foot back to correctness, as much as it will go, and over a period of time.

The cause of this is of concern. Is there any history of fore limb injuries or fractures? How is the left hind quarter of the mare? Any movement issues back there? Can you take a photo of her back and shoulders from directly behind her and in a straight line with her spine? Make sure she is straight, square and head straight forward. It will require help, no doubt.

The lack of fore limb straightness, to me, goes beyond running tracks to the left. Take a look. . .

What has your Vet said about the limb deformaties and have you had hoof and lower limb xrays taken? Depending on your plans for this horse, it may be helpful to get good quality radiographs taken, especially if you can locate a vet that has portable digital, so you can see some of the soft tissues as well. This would make it easier and safer to determine just what can be done, as far as changing the conformation of these feet, without creating, yet another issue.

Most of the crack of the toe in question, by the way, would likely be removed in a trim. That is another place where x rays would be handy. You could tell just how far the toe could come back all at once, and see what the coffin bone angles are inside the hoof capsule.

The other thing is to find out if there is any bone loss or serious joint or ligament issues.

If you are just going to 'wing-it' then you may want to invest in a video by Pete Ramey, "That's My Horse #2" The Hi Lo horse.

Hope this helps a little.

Dennis

thelmanelle

Thanks. I will take more pictures today.

My plans for her basically is to continue taking dressage lessons. We walk, trot , canter. Her left side is her most difficult side to bend her neck and to canter, but with suppling exercises we are improving at the canter.

Wow, the lines really bring it out and make one see what you are talking about and now, I have to re-read and study this...taking it all in.

I already added some photos to the link that I had taken in her stall.

http://s970.photobucket.com/albums/ae189/AGYG2010HOOVES/Hooves/

My vet has never said anything. My farrier and I have talked often about her hooves and the lack of heel. So when he comes Friday to the farm, he will read your thread and then, we will head to the other barn to consider Summer's hooves.

I will take pictures after the trim as I said on the other thread. Okay, I thank you! Now, I need to absorb this information.

thelmanelle

I took more pictures today as requested by you. I hope they are adequate. I will be happy to do more. The hoof photos were me alone....sorry. I did my best.

The red is not red clay, but red sand. We have that in the dressage arena.

She is turned out twice daily and fed triple crown senior with empower three times a day along with hay three times a day.

She grazes with 4 mares and then, the second time alone next to them to encourage her to eat more grass.

One thing, she sure has spirit. Today I was told that as they took the other horses in..she jumped the fence to come in with them. They were her mare buddies. She still has jumping in her. I do not encourage it as I understand she will really jump.

http://s970.photobucket.com/albums/ae189/AGYG2010HOOVES/Hooves/

Newfman

We may have some Kellon Grads from Equine Nutrition hanging around, especially on the Equine Nutrition section of this site. When I look at the analysis, it is typical of why I had my other half take Kellon's class. Especially since she is the Vet, I figured it would be better to have her do it than me. Anyhow, out of about 120 (est.) ingredients, Molasses was the fifth. Beet pulp itself, why it is pretty high in digestable energy, needs to be soaked and rinsed to reduce its sugar content. I don't think that is a process used in making bagged feeds, as it would start to ferment, or they would have to re-dry it and that would be a big expense.

Sugars and NSCs, (non structural carbohydrates) are common in feeds, and are bad for hoof quality. Does summer have issues with chewing or digesting hay? Seems kind of young to be considered a "senior". The other thing we noticed as we (she) started analyzing feeds, is low and behold, they had all the great supplements built right in! WooHoo! But, as it turns out, you were never getting the right amounts of one thing, without too much of something else. For example, I am a big proponent of supplementing Biotin, 30mg/day for problem hooves and 20-25mg/day for maintenance. So, for summer to get the upper level of the "maintenance" amount (assuming my math is right) she would have to eat 83.3 pounds of triple crown senior per day.

Before I turn this into a nutrition subject, which I am totally not qualified for, I will just finish by saying, nutrition can make or break your horse. Everything you put in, good or bad, shows up in the feet. It will take an average of 210 days, for those things to "hit the ground" as that is how long, on average, it takes a hoof wall to grow out. Once hoof of a particular quality is made at the coronary band, you are stuck with that growth 'moment' until it is rasped or worn away at the bottom. Make sense?

There are products like Farnum Weight Gain and PHN Cool Calories 100 that don't use sugars to build weight. They won't heat up your horse and cause the highs and lows that sugar or high NSC feeds can. I'm not selling these products, just saying that they are options to research. If interested, post a thread on the Nutrition side and see if you can get some info. Hopefully it won't be too confusing. The down side of the Kellon Nutritionist grads, is they can be a little zealous and one would have to be pretty wealthy to aquire everything it takes to make your own supplements.

If you have nothing better to do than strain your brain, Dr. Kellon has another Nutrition class starting in June. You would learn a lot, but it isn't simple. You would have to be dedicated to learning. Could also be quite interesting.

Food for thought...ooh, bad pun

Newfman

You could also pay someone a fee for a nutrition consult. It isn't super expensive and may actually save you some money in the long run by not paying for things your horse doesn't need and actually providing things she does.

calatar

While on the topic of nutrition, www.feedxl.com is a great cost effective resource. You can do pasture and hay analysis and they have a HUGE database with nutritional information on most feeds and supplements.

Newfman

So, I just finished looking at the photos and I suddenly get called in to work because they just got buried.

Yeah, it's kinda' like that.

So, I really don't have time to edit them and what not but I will shoot a couple quick points.

The heels are not as contracted as i would have thought.

I thought there would be a significant deviation in the shoulders, and with the first pic. I thought I was right, then summer shifted her weight to the other side for the next shot and the deviation switched sides. So, I can't really tell from the photos. The rump looks like it is evenly developed.

The withers. . .that just looks off. Like you could set a ruler across the top and not see any light. Flat and long, followed by a low neck set. To my eye, and it may be just a 'skinny horse' look, but that just doesn't seem right. Some other folk here that are more into body development may be better at judging. I'm more a hoof guy. I think Nashama recommended a sports masssage/Chiropractic check-up and I would agree whole heartedly.

Good job on the solar photos. It is a bear doing it by yourself. I pretty much quit doing it for personal records long ago because of that. Then the camera died and it made life much simpler! If you have a setting on your camera that has a flower symbol, switch to that for these closeup shots. That way it will focus on the foot and not the floor.

Lots of extra hoof wall and lots of retained sole! Plenty of heel! You really need a good set-up trim. I will try to go into that, next time I have some more time. Your farrier is going to really have to suck it up and understand that if you want to use your horse as a barefoot performance horse, he/she is going to have to learn the barefoot hoof ways. Standard farrier barefoot trimming absolutely does not work. If he is just kicking shoes off a horse for a couple months and sending them out to pasture, then "their" way will be ok (but only just). For a horse to work barefoot, it is just as important that they are trimmed properly for it as it is to have properly made and fit sliders for a top reining horse. So, tell him I said to suck it up and learn something new, in addition to the farrier stuff he knows. He will then have a very full tool box, and be a very unique farrier. I mean that in the nicest way possible. I would be happy to help.

Cheers,

Dennis

thelmanelle

When Ryan comes on Friday, we will read this together. Thanks on the nutrition and the information about the trimming. Yes, I hate the neck, too. Believe it or not it has actually improved with the ride slowly and gentle bending at the walk to help build the muscles slowly. I try not to ride for long periods ...to not burn up what she has eaten, but instead build muscle. She is on grass about 7-10 hours a day and then, the three meals of the triple crown with empower. She only likes Peanut Hay. She does receive treats that are the apple wafer calf manna treats for weight gain. I will try to find the treats you suggests. Get her on the Biotin and Farnum weight gain. What PHN stand for? PHN Cool Calorie 100.

Catalar,
I checked out the website and it was interesting. I will have to research it further. Now, to the nutrition thread....