T Touch analysis of 3 mares

Peeperpuppy · T Touch analysis of 3 mares

Bit & Jackspark (& anyone else who wants to take a look),

I loaded a bunch of photos into photobucket & wondered if you would care to take a look & give me an opinion about what you see with the 3 mares in relation to T-Touch & personality analysis.

I started another link because I didn't want to hijack bit's thread

Each mare got her own album.

Harley is my husband's mare, of everything I've compared I think she's the least complicated (IF) I'm interpreting correctly.
Her album:
http://s167.photobucket.com/album...gs%20Choice%20%20aka%20%20Harley/

Harley's sister Gunny:
http://s167.photobucket.com/album...s%20Kitty%20%20%20aka%20%20Gunny/

And the puzzle master: My Lippi... Mis
http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u149/peeperpuppy/Mis/

http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u149/peeperpuppy/Mis/

bit

Can you get full face pictures, and pull the forelock out of the way? Facial whorles tell a lot. I'll get the book out tomorrow and see what I can see.

Peeperpuppy

I'll have to wait for the storms to stop

Gunny's is 1 in the center of her face.
Mis' is 1 in the middle & a little bit high...
Harley's is the long one vertical on her face.

I appreciate the help. Will try to get some better shots

On Gunny if you look at the shot with her wearing the bridle & click on it youc an see her's pretty plain. There's not another swirl inside the star on her forehead. Same with Mis. The one where she's sporting a bridle, you can see hers but you have to get it full sized.

Harley's got one shot in there that's the best with the foretop out of the way, showing for the AQHA the scar she bears from when she was a youngster & she gashed her head open. You can see that long whorl on her. Funny, I never noticed it before.

Clarissa

Peeper do any of your horses have whirls behind their forlocks (between their ears) behind their ears at the poll or along their necks either top, sides or under also?

Peeperpuppy

yikes... double post... see below

Copious_Amour

Oooooh pictures of Mis! I love Mis!

Peeperpuppy

[quote="Peeperpuppy:88645"]Here, let me try this.

Harley:

Gunny:
((I think this is the best one I have of Gunny))

Mis:

White hair is fun... if you put the sun on her... it's dazzling & you can't see the whorl at all

This is the best one I have of Mis

Peeperpuppy

Clarissa

This is what I saw when I quickly flicked through the photos since first impressions are usually the most reliable. Of course hands on may produce a totally different analysis.

Lippi Mis:-
Big bubble, opinionated, likes things to remain stable & done a certain way, interesting that she is not top dog, gets upset easily, hold her stress in, may explode at times & chuck a fizzy or go introverted, untrusting until fully happy with her human. Could be prone to injuries or getting herself into situations & may not like water crossings. A good rider will give her good leadership which will allow her to show that she can work well & has learned her school work. She is probably good at what she is conformationally suited to.

Harley:-
Easy going, confident, soft, happy to comply, keen to be good friends, interested in the goings on, probably fairly healthy & free of
dis-ease, unless there has been a trauma injury.

Gunny:-
Holds in her stress & may work herself into a tizz at times, emotional sweater, could be tight along her sides, resistant to being soft on the bit, ladder climber, usually willing once the ground rules are established. Being tight sided might produce leg & rib problems or wither problems leading to back trouble or saddle fit issues.

I could add more if I knew about the whirls. Whirls give an indication to the complexity of the character & strength of dedication. As for the T-Touch, I haven’t learned about that yet.

Copious_Amour

Just found this:

Clarissa

Copious_Amour

And then there is this:

A more scientific explanation of whirls and which side foals like to suckle on due to their whirls.
http://www.agresearchforum.com/publicationsarf/2005/056_page.pdf

Clarissa

What an interesting article that was & yes I did find that same thing although I wasn't so focused on the birth presentation of which leg came out first.

Onesidedness is a very important thing & I think it could be used in matching potential horse parents for a particular foal outcome for a certain human.

Copious_Amour

I can't remember who I was speaking to the other day but the mention of which side the mane lies on naturally (meaning, a person did not train the mane to lay left or right for their liking) ; if that has to do with a horse being left or right "handed." Or left or right brained at that. I've found horses with manes that flop on both sides of the necks are spunkier but now we know that this could/does mean that their body is out of alignment. Does this cause the "spunkiness" or is it another characteristic trait such as whirls?

jackspark

Peep, I'll just let my fellow Spirit ladies make the comments here. I am not qualified to do that. I do want to ask: How big is Harley and how big is your hubby?

Em, what does it say if your horse has a double whirl between the eyes?
Seems like I read once that it indicated a feisty personality? Will do pics later

Clarissa

I'll start a new thread about this left & right sided so we don't highjack this thread. I want to read what others see with these horses too.

Peeperpuppy

bit

Harley

A single, long swirl that may be between the eyes or extend below:
Indicates a horse that is friendly and particularly enjoys related to people.
The jowels
large, round. Horse tends to be intelligent and cooperative
Straight profile
horse that is very "uncomplicated" and learns easily
Shapely nostrils, fluted at the top
Horses who think a lot. If the top of the nostril has a well-defined shape and is firm, they'll tend to be cooperative if a person is fair and confident. Also, beware if th skin an inch above the tope of the nbroostril is very loose, indicating a tendency to react and snort or shy in new situations.
Almond shaped eye (not sure, can't see well so will give you triangular shape as well)
a cooperative and willing nature. Horse may be introverted and slightly standoffish until he learns to trust you'
triangular
average intelligence.
wide between the eyes
intelligent, with an ability to learn quickly. However, this type of horse may use his intelligence to take advantage of an inexperinced rider.
ears wider apart at the top than at the base
indicates steadiness and a tendency to be uncomplicated
broad ears with little definition
a horse that is not giong to ask many questions, but will just go on down the road and do as you ask. Medium learner, cooperative

the book is called Getting in t touch with your horse. You can get it used for pretty cheap. So Peeps, does this sound like your girl? It's hard for me to do this with the pictures, and not be there with the horse. Ya'll know your horses, know what they look like and can read your horses better than me. Great book. The Ultimate Horse Behavior and Training book gets into how you can change behavior and the body through t touch.

Peeperpuppy

Clarisa & bit,

You've described our Harley's personality to a T. When we first bought the Gruella sisters, my husband seemed interested in Gunny. I didn't opt to swap horses because I knew 2 things; 1) Harley's laid back & easy going & 2) she's easy for me to work with & bring her forward in her skills without her needing to become MY horse. She's his horse & when he commes out she walks with him in the pasture & looks after him. My husband has damage to both shoulders, both knees, lower spine & his neck. His rides are very short. Harley is boss in the herd & has absolutely no dominance issues with people. The only problem we ever have with her involved a water hose that she was certain was a boogie. She wouldn't cross it for my husband & the issue wasn't disobedience... she wouldn't take him into trouble

If she ever spooks over something it involves jumping in her own skin & maybe a few nervous steps... crisis over. She's a million dollar mare & even that ain't getting Harley away from us

bit

ok, lets look at Mis.
At first glace, I thought she might have a roman head, but after looking at her other pictures, I'm thinking she has more of an extreme slope of the forehead back toward the poll. This is rarely seen. Usuallly indicates a resistant personality. Peeps, you'll have to take a look at her, the book and may make a more accurate determination.
Now peeps, I am seeing some differences on her face. Her left eye is a bit pushed out and lower than her right. This can be the result of an injury, perhaps from pulling back, or head trauma. It could also mean she gets headaches. Does that sound right?

this eye is hard, round eye. Proud, distant, what is called "the look of eagles". a look you look for in a good race horse. a horse with such an eye is a top horse, not easy, but rather proud and independent.

I've noticed her nostrils are uneven. Again, I think she's had a head trauma.
Ears straight up, same width at top as the base are likely to be energetic and sometimes a little hot.
Fine, flueted ears usually signifies intelligence.
Upon closer inspection, looks like Ms. has two swirls, one on top of the other. Horses with this combination tend to be more emotional and over-reactive than average. They tend to become upset without apparent reason, and at unexpected moments. When such horses blow lup, the best way to handle them is to back off and allow them to settle. Punishing them doesn't help. (does it ever?) in fact it usually only aggravagtes the behavior more and can even bring on more resistance.
However, a horse with two adjoining swirls can be a great horse. SOme of my very best show hrose have had this configurations. But generally, these horses are not good for unexperienced riders.
Hard to do nostrils because they are different. 'm thinking her injury occured on her left side, but I'm guessing. I can't tell which side is her and which side is injured. I only know one side is different.

long, flat and narrow chin
High intelligence which can result in behavior that is often misundaerstood as difficult.
See how her upper lip droops a bit on one side? It's hard to read her upper lip because I'm not sure what shape it is. I think, a modified heart shape, which would indicate "friendly".
She has that nice, wide space between her eyes, like Harley. That means she's smart. I'd see about helping her with headaches, Peeps. I bet she has a lot of pressure she's dealing with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiWxetXQjIY

Peeperpuppy

bit, that's why I didn't want to say anything & to see if someone else would see. I love that little mare to pieces but she's the biggest mystery I've ever had my hands on. I never noticed the eye pushed out but it's also part of what has been puzzling me & why I wanted to open the photos up for folks to comment on... I'm so close that I miss the glaringly obvious. You're right, the head shape I thought was roman too except that her forehead slants & & then it begins to take on the roman shape.

Her head had me so puzzled & I thought I was just thinking it to death.

While she's been in my care she's never been sick, lame or suffered any injury but Mis did not have a happy foal-hood. Her start in life involved being driving from larger spaces to smaller & smaller ones then captured. I would not be surprised to find the head injury came from her foal months. She came to me as a yearling. She spent a short time at my friend's farm where they worked hard to teacher her anything. She came to us fairly volitile. She's too straight in the hindquarters to go Grand Prix dressage so she needed a good home. That's where I came in. I got full disclosure so I knew I would have my hands full but the head injury & possible headaches & pressure could explain why my nice Lippi gets nutty from time to time.

It could also be that whatever happened to her in cross ties is where she got hurt. I had a halter & 1 line on her & picked up another rope. I was intending to coil the rope up & put it away. Mis went from curious about what I was doing to full of rage & preparing to fight to the death to keep me from catching her. I won major ground with her when I recognized the issue & I deliberately put the rope down & waited it out for her to come to me. When she could come to me the rage was gone, the warrior had lay down the fight. And that's when we began to build things. Now I could snap 10 lines on her (& have done so) but she knows without question that I'd never cross tie her. Whatever happened was horrendous. You can feel it vibrate through her.

Clarissa wrote:
"Lippi Mis:-
Big bubble, opinionated, likes things to remain stable & done a certain way, interesting that she is not top dog, gets upset easily, hold her stress in, may explode at times & chuck a fizzy or go introverted, untrusting until fully happy with her human. Could be prone to injuries or getting herself into situations & may not like water crossings. A good rider will give her good leadership which will allow her to show that she can work well & has learned her school work. She is probably good at what she is conformationally suited to. "

You got her pretty pegged. She has a HUGE bubble & it's bigger depending on the person handling her. Opinionated... if you look it up in the dictonary... her pictures there! She hates change. Doesn't like any adjustment to how things are done. She's not been prone to injury though. But she's been known to do a stupid thing now & again. Usually it's minor & when she gets herself out of whatever it is she gets this sheepish, foolish look on her face

I need to explore bits take on the headaches. I have often wondered if I'm the wrong human for Mis. Funnily enough, at the trainers he was on her back in 10 minutes & she never bucked or did anything spooky. He didn't care for the way she rode but he has no experience in her type of movement either. He mostly trains mules & trail horses, police mounts, etc...

bit

I took the pictures out because they were making the screen too big. I did notice she has a pretty long back. When you get your t touch books, check out what it says about that. You may want to try a figure 8 body wrap on her, which will help her get her rear end under her. A promise wrap while you ride her will help her a lot too.

Peeperpuppy

I didn't find any whorls along the necks even along the mane. I do have some interesting findings under the forelock.

Mis has a whorl at the base of her forelock.

Gunny has an arrow** shape under her forelock. At the point of the arrow is a teeny tiny whorl with a little tuft of hair & just up from that, her foretop starts. The arrow is very dark.

Didn't find any whorls on Harleys neck or under her foretops. I was really interested to see some behind the ears but didn't find that either.

BTW... thank you bit & Clarissa for your help on this

edited for spelling error

bit

Peeps, the thing is, none of it matters. You can change it all. You can change behavior, conformation, trust issues, spookiness, everything. I think that's how I got Hawk back. As much as he'd allow, I did t touch. He allowed a bit more, I did more. Now he loves it, asks for it, and releases and releases. This stuff is interesting, but nothing is set in stone. Nothing. You can heal it all.

Peeperpuppy

Jeze bit, I hope so. I'm trying.

Just last night when I went out to feed, look for whorls & fly spray them I had no trouble with the grulla sisters but poor ol' Mis. ((FYI - according to Mis, the devil lives in the spray bottle. He's in there waiting to spew devil-acid on unsuspecting horses)). Now because I know Mis has such trust issues & that she somehow believes I'll morph into someone sneaky & will get her, I say aloud to her, "It's okay, Mis. You're safe. No fly spray for you unless you walk up to the outside of the pen, stand broad side & ask for it. I won't surprise you." I've spent countless hours with a clean water bottle to condition her, approach & retreat, etc.. I've sprayed myself so that she sees me getting it. I've sprayed the other horses - who by the way love this little game - but Mis just goes to pieces.

Now I know fly spray isn't life or death but it would sure make her life more pleasurable... sigh. While I'm awaiting the one books arrival, I'm reading the T-touch books I have. There's got to be a key to that door as well as Gunny's issues.

Thanks again Bit for the encouragement.

bit

Um, I wipe it on. No, they aren't doing the Mis, but they sure don't like it. None of them. I use Pyranah wipe and spray, and just pour some on a wash cloth or ripped up towel. I use a lot less this way. I wipe it on while everyone is eating breakfast. I wipe, the flies no longer land, and they get the connection. Also gives me the chance to check the undercarriage, look for boo boo's and they get a nice long stroke back and front on their legs, which they enjoy. Even Shaun, who HATES the spray bottle puts his foot out so I can wipe it down. I don't feel like I'm "not winning". The point is fly relief. Wiping works for me and them.
Jim mastersons massage bladder meridian work really helped me learn about where my horses issues are. If you want, I can p.m. you easy directions. If you want to borrow the dvd, I'll send it to you. Bet even Mis would enjoy it!
ps can loan you head ache dvd after I can study it a bit, too.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I spray it on a soft brush and brush it on. It really irritates my eyes and so I understand why some horses don't like it. By doing it this way I make sure I don't saturate any spot enough to burn the skin and I know I've got some on every part of the body. I can brush softly near the eyes without fear of getting any in them and get the ears of even the ear shy horses.

I am pretty sure Mis (in fact no horses I know of) make the mental connection between fly spray and fewer flies.

I do have one horse though that runs straight for me to kill those big nasty black horse flies. Baby figured this out years ago.

Peeperpuppy

Putting it on the brush or a rag doesn't work with this one. I've even used plain water to see if it was the spray itself or the noise or what. Doesn't matter any brush or rag with something on it ain't touching her. Period. I have a dickens of a time with her if I put a rope on her after one of the others who have the fly spray on it... I really do think its about more than fly spray. I don't know if its something that she's built up in her mind or if something hurt her that came out of a bottle. Horses can associate pain with sounds or smells. I'm inclined to think it more a matter of trust & a fear obstancle than the spray itself.

bit, I'd love a PM or to borrow the dvd's. ANYTHING to help the situation. Especially if Mis is having headaches. I have migraines & cluster headaches so I know full well what it's like when you've got head pain. And then there's Gunny

We haven't got to her but I'm hoping if I find the key to help one it'll help me help the other.

PasoBaby_CarolU

That is interesting Robin. I wonder if she's particularly sensitive to one of the chemicals in it.

Peeperpuppy

Carol I've wondered that too. She's snarky & intolerant when it's even just water but I've never really been convinced that she doesn't just associate it with the bad stuff. She's an intelligent horse even if she hates change.

Who knew evil comes in a spray bottle??????

PasoBaby_CarolU

Aliens. They come in spray bottles.

Mandy'sMarty

I suspect she's hyper-vigilant about avoiding chemical fly repellents. To be safe, she avoids anything that might possibly be a chemical fly repellent. Pyrethroids, whether synthetic or natural, are neurotoxins. She is very sensitive and knows they are toxic. Apparently she received an overdose once and it made an impression.

Copious_Amour

Peeperpuppy

PasoBaby_CarolU

Robin, don't feel alone. These super-sensitive horses teach us so much..and constantly. It's sad that so few people listen to what they say. Most people would put her in cross-ties and spray away - and that may indeed be her memory of fly spray.

Peeperpuppy

Carol, I've actually had horse people tell me to do that very thing. I learn a lot about people when they try to tell me how to raise Mis. I call it the lack of any advanced knowledge. Sort of caveman horsemanship

I believe if this mare was pushed that way there'd probably be an ugly story on the news. She'd been shoved into fight or flight so much as a foal that when she feels she's being abused... she goes there. On the other hand I can do something dumb (got us both tangled up in a rope togther once) & she just gives me the mule ears & a look like I ought to know better

You are so right, they teach. She's advanced my knowledge more & more & the harder I search for the key to help her find a place of peace... the more I grow. She's clever that way

jackspark

Clarissa

You’ve deduced she is sensitive to the smell of the chemical you use & she may have been forced.

This is what I did when I had to train mine.

When I was teaching mine to be sprayed I found household pressurized fly spray from the supermarket the best because the pyrethrum was the closest I could get to natural & it came in odour free. So I made the shhhh sound of the spray & waved the can around & ran my flat hand firmly along horse's bodies where I would eventually spray. It seemed to help a lot that they felt my hand running along their coats. Then I sprayed a little away from them but ran my hand along their backs or sides or necks just to see what they thought of the smell.

There was no reaction so I held can in right hand & sprayed & ran left hand along side by side in unison. Some horses moved away & I allowed it since I didn’t have them online. Others didn’t think anything of it. I would also say certain words like “Have you got flies?” & “let me get those flies”. That was like the preparatory to the action of the actual spray, Then I would just say “very good” & give a small treat or give them their nosebags.

Very soon they turned things around & came up to the fence & stomped their feet to get my attention when they had flies. These days I just walk amongst them & spray as needed often into the air above them or around their legs to get the flies that take off when I move. I can even spray in the air around their heads although some don’t like me spraying directly onto their faces or ears. There are no problems anymore & I can also use normal smelling fly spray now too or any sort of canned spray. Some have stronger sprays than others & make a different sound but it’s just not an issue.

As for a hand spray bottle that is a little different. They don’t like the intermittent spraying caused by continuously pumping the spray bottle so I have adopted a style of spraying where I make long single sweeping sprays in a long line, then another & so on rather than keep pumping the spray bottle. It requires me to have a good quality spray bottle & keep it mostly full but the smell isn’t an issue because we already went through that with the commercial pressurized spray cans.

Peeperpuppy

I find something very interesting. I've made a first read over much of the book. I've been experimenting a little here & a little there. My first attempts (at moving the skin in the way described for the various t-touches) this was met by each of the mares as bothersome. Or as if it really startled them or put them off. I didn't persist. I just went back to stroking them, scratching with my finger nails very lightly. I shooed flies off & just went on about my business. One of the things that occurred to me was the amount of what felt like jealousy & resentment for Mis. The sisters drive her out from me so I've taken to alertnating so that everyone can have special attention. So now the ladies have a bit of a better time of it.

I began to notice in a week of this a change occurred. I noticed it first in Mis. Big soft eyes & a soft little sound, not really a nicker but she wanted her time with me. My back didn't hold up for it one day & I reminded that the day before she was the only one to get brushed, the other mares missed everything. That seemed to make a difference. I'm like Grandpa. I talk to them same as I do my dogs or my family. All one & the same.

The next time I was trying out what I remembered in the book I noticed Mis wasn't bothered, in the slightest by the T-touches. No bothered attitude. No backed ears. I got big sighs & she even forgot to chew or started to fall asleep. And it seems that either I've gotten better or they seem to get it or feel it & now I'm getting, parts presented to me.

The funniest thing Harley who never liked her face handled from her forehead up (she had a bad accident & scar from it as a filly). She's always been very fussy about that scar not being handled. So the other day she wanted her face brushed. Now suddenly, courtesy of t-touch, she wants her muzzle gone over lightly with fingernails, I did Llama T-touches & whatever else I could think of & now suddenly I'm Harley's face specialist.

Poor Gunny just came to me tonight. She's normally very nibbly but tonight she just hugged me & sighed. No nibbles. No onery cowpony. Just a big sweet huggy horse.

If I haven't mentioned this before..........I AM LOVING THIS T-TOUCH BUSINESS

Clarissa

Oh my goodness Peeper you've opened a can of worms there with those 3 horses each getting jealous of the others

Mine are just the same! I have to make them each wait their turn for attention. I have established certain hand signals or I say 'wait' to tell them that I acknowledge them but they have to get in line. I often get mobbed when I go to the paddock for any reason even with big tools in my hands or pushing the wheel barrow. Sonny in particular will run in front & block my way & sort of round me up

Then presents that part of him that he insists I 'treat' infront of me for attention.

If I am scratching another horse he will come to the other side of it & reach over to grab my hand & try to 'steal' it by attempting to walk away with it.

If I place myself equidistant from all horses Sonny will wessel in & gently guide me away for his personal attentions!

Who said horses are dumb animals

misstux

Peeper, my kitties and Strider also saw my first attempt at TTouch as irritating, but later attempts were ok. I have been really curious about that.

Copious_Amour

I will have to try TTOUCH again. I dropped it on several different occasions as no one seemed to like it. Bodie likes the nostril massage but anything else, no. I just figured I was doing the touches wrong. Interested to best from several that they don't like it in the beginning. Was trying to figure out why other people's horses DID like it

imagele

coveredbridgefarm

Robin wrote:

jackspark

My lead gelding, old faithful, will also turn his nose up at the relief it brings. I have to halter him to get it done and don't know the origin of this behavior; he came to me with it. Every muscle in his body tenses up when I spray him and believe me he ain't scared of nuttin' ODD

misstux

imagele, my horses Dusty and Scout both refused hands on reiki, but would take it if I sat in the stall with them or if I did a distance send. Strider will take hands on. I got my reiki 1 from Kathleen Prasaad - Animal Reiki Source. We learned hands off first because a lot of animals find hands on to be too intense.

bit

Makes sense. Jim Masterson uses air gap a lot. My reiki master's, master taught us to imagine the idea, person, animal in our hand, do the symbols and then put the other hand on top and "hold" them while we did reiki. You can reiki Joplin, your marriage, your spouse, your horse, dog, whatever. Ultimate in air gap.
Ummm, what does imo mean?

Mandy'sMarty

At the risk of hijacking this thread, I thought it may help to mention my mare's attitude regarding fly sprays. I had a very direct 'conversation' about fly sprays with her and the following is what she told me.

Mandy is aware of both pyrethroids (synthetic chemical) and pyrethrines (botanical), the active ingredients in most fly sprays. They work by altering nerve function, which causes paralysis in target insect pests, eventually resulting in death.

Mandy experienced her first overdose when she was 11 months old. She was sick for a week with mild colic for a day. Her next overdose occurred when she was two. Again, sick for a week. It was then that she understood the connection between the fly spray and her sickness.

Mandy says these active ingredients, which are toxic, accumulate and remain in the body. They do alter her body's nerve function. They effect her ability to think, to move, and her propriosensitivity ( the body's knowing where it is in relation to everything and everyone else ).

I used to apply a spot treatment fly repellent on Mandy, until I began to suspect that the active ingredients may be harmful. She said that treatment was effective against flies for 13 days. But she said her body paid a price by absorbing those toxins.

Fortunately, we've been able to remove these toxins from her body. Mandy said that she would not have been able to perform as well as she did recently in an endurance ride, had those toxins still been in her body.

Mandy said that she would prefer to tolerate biting flies than experience the toxic effects of most fly repellents.

Today I have Mandy wear a fly mask 24/7 in her pasture and barn. I put a different mask with ears on her that is black and easier for her to see through when we ride where biting flies are thick. The farm managers introduced fly predators this spring, but we now believe it was done a month too late to keep up with the fly population. I apply a spray containing Flick's and water and ACV when I tack her up or work on her feet or body. She says it keeps the flies away for about an hour.

As always, this information is based on my opinion of what I believe Mandy is communicating to me, when specific questions are raised.

bit

Well crap. It just kills me to see the horses out there stamping and biting at flies. They aren't as bad as some places, but they are still pretty bad. I go out every evening and kill the horse flies when they come out. It would be so hard to do nothing but flly masks, but don't wamt to poisen my horses, either.

Mandy'sMarty

I suppose one of the take-home messages about this is that there may be a price paid for chemical products that far exceeds the retail price for the product. We always have a choice. Mandy's perspective has made me more sensitive to what we do to our horses, particularly in the belief we are helping them.

Mandy'sMarty

Regarding 'hands-on' TTouch, Reiki, and body work:

I suspect that the initial TTouch session with a creature as sensitive as the horse may be felt and interpreted as invasive. Particularly if the TTouch modality is powerful.

It's been years since I studied TTouch and I rarely use it consciously, specifically, today. I still apply a random pattern of touches to my Lab, Bodacious, occasionally and she seems to love it as it totally relaxes her. Curiously, Bo took a while to accept the bladder meridian sweeps as relaxing. Bo has always accepted Reiki although she seems to get what she needs quickly and she then lets me know when enough is enough.

Mandy, on the other hand, thoroughly enjoyed and accepted bladder meridian sweeps from the first session. I haven't experimented much with TTouch on her. Two years ago I studied accupressure and have occasionally used it with Mandy.

I suppose I use a combination of accupressure and Reiki most often with Mandy. A year or so ago I received an email from my friend April Battles. She had been working from the Tallgrass accupressure manual while helping a client horse when Mandy telepathically interrupted her session. Mandy was breaking in to tell April to tell me which specific page in the manual to follow regarding the specific accupressure points that needed attention on her body. Turns out it was dealing with an issue I had been puzzling over the day before with Mandy.

Mandy's acceptance of Reiki depends. I believe she is the one who first taught me years ago the power and use of what I now know to be Reiki. There have been times when she really needed Reiki support. During those sessions, I would literally stand still with hands hovering in place over her...and she would move her body back and forth in order to receive what she needed where she needed it. There was also one time when I began a Reiki session on her and she instantly jumped sideways with a sharp squeal...telling me it was too intense. I had inadvertently pointed my fingers toward her body rather than my palms. She's teaching me to modulate its intensity. I am always consciously focused on sending Reiki energy to her to use wherever she needs it in her body. I don't even attempt to know where she needs it most in any given session. I offer it to her to use however and wherever she needs it. It's always her choice to accept it...or not.

Peeperpuppy

Marty what you've said concerning Mandy & the fly spray is along the lines of what's been hovering in my mind & is why I went to water in the spray bottle... & because she still reacted the same I thought - nope it's just the sound that bothers her. I should have listened to my first instinct but I didn't know enough to really be sound & steady in what I thought I knew -if that makes any kind of sense. When you said she was hypervigillante because of the chemicals, a big ol' light went off in my head (more on that in a minute). It instantly flashed to the forefront of my mind something I was told about the mare a few years ago was not to vaccinate her. My brain started perking on it.

Now on the big light going off... I was out with the other two mares fly spraying them. Mis was getting ticky outside the fence & suddenly I got this pressure in my head & dizzy, dizzy, dizzy. I ended up leaning on the fence, it just plain felt like I didn't know when end of me was up. Then I felt sick at my stomach & my teeth felt like they were going to blow outta my head. Next thing I know, Mis has me by the pony tail & was alternating between bonking me with her nose & pulling my hair. Apparently she opted to show me why she's batty about the bug spray.

Message received... NO bug spray for Mis. Period. Funny thing is, the flys are annoying but she's not the horse who has bites all over her. Harley, is just eaten up with bites, so this makes me think her immune system needs a bump. Gunny has a few bites here & there but not bad. Come to think of it, she's far slower to get hot & sweaty than the other two. I mean she does sweat but she handles the heat & humidity easier.

More importantly is that once I got this right... Mis is a whole new horse. She still doesn't like it when I treat the other mares but now I'm questioning doing that. I've been having thoughts about figuring out some sort of something that would annoy flies but wouldn't hurt horses or annoy them. I've got all these mint plants that no bug bothers but haven't tested it on flies. Bound to be something in nature that grosses out flies

I know enough to be dangerous sometimes

Edited to add: Reiki is something I'm interested in but haven't figured out where to start

bit

Reiki-I think that you get good with practice. The more you do it, the better you get. Although it isn't you that gets better, it's more like the channel you are using gets clearer.
I do know, you start out only as good as your reiki master. So getting it on lline, not so good. Just like anything, choose your teacher well.
I was a skeptic, to put it mildly. It works, Peeps. It really works.

misstux

One thing that I learned along the way - unhealthy horses and horses with a higher toxic load attract more flies.

Mandy'sMarty

Peeperpuppy

Yup. I can get Gunny to eat stuff with the supplements in it to give her the boost she needs. Harley is another matter. We're working on this.

Clarissa

I think this that is being discussed about horses that won’t tolerate the spray is a very good candidate for clicker training.

Naturally it would involve a fair degree of lateral thinking & thoughtful progression through the exposures but a horse will learn that a certain action is worth the effort, you just have to put it in terms the horse will accept. Clicker seems to be good for that no matter what is being taught.

Afterall as exponents of natural horsemanship we put things in terms the horse could understand to show it we were not the bad guy. We used advance & retreat & taught by release, so introducing a new learning pattern of positive reinforcement should be easy enough. We taught our horses how to become sufficiently emotionally collected to allow itself to cross thresholds & the spray bottle is just another threshold really.

bit

I do think if a horse makes it very clear that fly spray is not a good thing, and after negotiations, she still deems it a bad thing, then it's not a battle worth fighting. Mis seems to be one of those horses that has made it quite clear, and I'd respect her opinion. So many horses never even have their opinion considered.
Mis is taking her time, feeling things out, and trusting as she can. One thing that I think she appreciates is that Peeps doesn't ask her to do things she just can't do. It's all about trust. That's what it all comes down to, horses trusting us, and us trusting our horses. It makes for a nice partnership when both human and horse have a lot of trust in one another. If Peeps pushed the fly spray thing, I think she'd lose a lot of hard won ground.

Peeperpuppy

If I really felt this issue was simply about not liking the sound, the spray etc... then I'd change tactics. In fact I have on several occassions along this journey. It's been a long road for the pair of us because that's what I believed for the longest time, that she simply didn't like it, didn't trust it, didn't something. In hind sight I look back at how far this mare's come. From hating us, not trusting anything we did or used to being a horse who I can ask to try something even if it's scary, even if it's weird & she'll make effort... always she will try. But that's not the case with the fly spray.

I've asked her to step off a cliff & trust me to catch her on more than one occassion. Always she takes the journey with me even when she's not sure that I know what I'm talking about. For this reason alone is enough to make me think the mare knows something I don't.. okay well a lot of somethings but this focuses on the fly spray. So I have to defer to the mare. I'm not the sort to induldge bad behavior. My critters will tell you I run a fairly tight ship & everyone uses good manners or the lady of the manner will be there to remind even if it includes tail biting. I very rarely have to do that. Very rarely because over all because I can tell the difference between can't & won't (won't because of a prissy fit vs won't because the horse doesn't believe she can do it). They also know so long as they're making effort I'll see them through it.

I really do think if I ever pressed the issue I'll lose her in more ways than I can express in words. I'm not afraid to go there if it was just training. I don't think it is. And if its a case of the bug spray makes the mare sick... I won't ask her to tolerate that. I did that with a dog years ago out of honest stupidity. One day I was dipping him - per my vet's instructions - & the dog & I both ended up messed up over it. When I was at my senses & could research it, the bloomin' stuff was a nerve agent/toxin. No wonder the dog & I were higher than a kite & for weeks my system wasn't quite right. It's amazing to me this dog didn't go off on me except we loved each other so deeply that we'd walk thru fire for one another. Since that day I never assume I know best. I think of her expression, her reaction & her attitude toward the spray vs anything else I've odne with her & I'll just look for a better idea of how to creep out the flies. Who knows, maybe I'll come up with something brilliant

PasoBaby_CarolU

Robin, it sounds to me like you've come to a decision on this subject, and I honestly say I would probably do the same. I also had to come to a decision between doing something and ruining the relationship I had with my horse. In my case it was the Hold the Tongue task in the old Level 2. Zar hated this and each time I would try she would be hard to catch for at least 3 weeks afterwards. After a few attempts I simply decided that blue string wasn't worth damaging her dignity.

Perhaps you can find a holistic or natural fly repellent that she wouldn't mind, or put one of the clip on repellent things on a break away neck rope or something.

Good luck. And kudos for you putting the horse first.

Peeperpuppy

Thanks Carol. Sometimes I just gotta talk it out & eventually I get there. Usually someone says something that trips my trigger to my brain & makes me think about it differently or see it from another angle, which is why I love these boards. I guess mainly I needed to remember that although Mis has had her moments where she's had me pulling my own hair out by the root... over all when the chips are down & I ask for a try, she does make effort. And I think the more I've tried approach & retreat the worse I've made things & if it's because the stuff makes her physically ill... she's had to protect herself. Who could blame her. I do understand it because I have enough allergies to sink a gigantic ship.

Mis has taught me a great deal & if fly spray is a deal breaker - especially if it makes her ill - then hands down, we'll find another way. I grow my own herbs & have been looking at some of them & wondering. Nothing I'm growing's harmful to the skin so I may play with some of that & see if any of it grosses out flies. Thus far nothing even comes near my mint plants. If ya'll see on the 6 o'clock news some crazy lady has decorated her gray horse with herbal leaves... you'll know who it is

Necessity is generally the mother of invention so I'm hoping.

Back to T-touch, I guess I wasn't ready before but now that I am it's certainly made a difference in my time with my horses. I need to devote more time to Gunny. Yesterday wasn't a good Gunny day.

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