Technical riding without contact

PasoBaby_CarolU · Technical riding without contact

I have been re-reading Hempfhling's work on riding in collection without rein contact, and love what Karen Rohlf does. I used to ride western and would train to ride WP, reining, etc, collected, without contact This is always my goal, to be as natural in my horsemanship as possible, the ultimate of lightness.

I was wondering who else people study to get to this goal. I think it is the logical direction for any NH person to head. And there is a different, but similar path for English and western. English is pretty easy, following Natural Dressage (thank you Karen for setting this path). The Western path is not so clearly defined. I find most Reining horses get to the 'without reins' part, but think the WP world has a different definition of collection then we had back in the day when I rode it. I look at the winning horses, all heavy on the forehand, and just don't feel that is natural for the horse.

Any good examples of western collected reinless riding?

PasoBaby_CarolU

As I think about it, it is hard to beat that Cowboy Dressage video...now, WHO teaches that?

misstux

Yes_But_Neigh

I love the Cowboy Dressage guy-- plus- I could stare at his stallions forever. I'm interested in where this thread goes- not having ridden Bodie yet, I am acting like I am re-starting him all over and would love to be able to ride him on a no-contact rein-- great post Carol.

cokey

The Cowboy Dressage guy, Eitan Beth-Halachmy had a heart attack at the opening of the WEG. I know it was pretty serious at the time, but haven't heard an update recently.

Has anyone heard if he's ok?

PasoBaby_CarolU

PasoBaby_CarolU

Hey..thanks for the links. I ordered his DVDs and manual (package deal special). I like this description of the manual:

Jack · Re: Technical riding without contact

babs

Eitan is out of the hospital and at last report was continuing his recuperation with friends in KY.

misstux

Carol, please let us know what you think about his materials.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Thanks for those links Jack. That is probably the best riding I've seen CA do.

I really liked the LHH site. It sounds like an event worth attending. I hope they are successful getting Cowboy Dressage going as a competitive event. I'd like to see what their rules will be.

I'll let you know what I think of his DVDs and book. Sadly, with the change in the weather, I'll have oodles of time to watch and read.

Niek

Personally i dont think the western dressage is "dressage". Its good to look at , but is closer to "english park" than dressage imo.

There are many riders aiming for the draped rein goal..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiP7nsVHizw&feature=related

As an outline this to me is more "dressageh" Personally i love a draped rein.. But i do feel there is a difference between having a contact and having to much pressure... Having contact can look as great or better than draped reins ( PK and Odeo come to mind..)

Eitherway its an end result. Also KR is not shy of a decent contact.. She constantly gives her hand though, i guess it depends on the horse and rider combo wether or not thats prefferd.

Edit : ofcourse we can argue for ever about collection dressage vs western

.. Hard topic to find a midway in imo

PasoBaby_CarolU

Those are really nice Niek...I looked at several of his other videos. Beautiful.

cynthia peterson

Very interesting. IMO it shows a horse can be taught to do anything if the time and effort is put in to it.

Along the same lines, I am sure everybody has seen that Linda Parelli has a Special one time only ( that is personally taught by Linda) three day Clinic this month at the Parelli Center on "The Game Of Contact." Apparently she has wowed WAZ with a amazing way to teach student on getting contact. Not collection, but just the contact part. The rider positions are filled by hand picked student but auditing is still available for $450 for three days. Apparently there is something in the Master Gold Member DVD (a very short clip on Linda doing it with the cradle bit)

So, those of you out there that have been to Parelli Instructors, past and present, what would you say is the official idea of contact, and do you think it has changed? Have you used those methods and has it worked for you? Yes, Linda and Pat are English and Western riders, but do you see this as a Linda Parelli Program separate from a Pat Parelli Program, or just a improvement of Parelli? And if there is "new" information coming up, will it always just be left to Gold members?

PasoBaby_CarolU

That's quite a collection of questions there Cynthia? LOL

Is there a video of Linda's new Contact course? It is hard to answer your questions without seeing it to decide what is different or the same about it.

Aussie girl

"So, those of you out there that have been to Parelli Instructors, past and present, what would you say is the official idea of contact, and do you think it has changed? Have you used those methods and has it worked for you? Yes, Linda and Pat are English and Western riders, but do you see this as a Linda Parelli Program separate from a Pat Parelli Program, or just a improvement of Parelli? And if there is "new" information coming up, will it always just be left to Gold members?"

I was at a course in the summer and Linda gave a talk on the "game of contact" and we worked with it in one session. Personally, I don't like it and it goes against everything I have ever been taught on how to work with contact. One should never just throw the reins away, IMO that leads to heavy on the forehand horses. There for sure should be a release when they "get it" but it should be a gentle give and take.

And this concept of Linda's will be available to members that have the money to pursue it and auditing for $450

you've got to be kidding!!

Rik(The Sequel)

Niek is right they are not really comparable, this gives you an idea of why imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA&feature=related

cynthia peterson

http://www.youtube.com/user/savvyacres

This is a Youtube clip of Linda's Game Of Contact by a Level 4 PP.

Yes, Carol, I always ask those "inquiring" question the rest of you were probably thinking of too. As you know the Contact questions is always one that comes up in every forum. Even how many pounds is it!! And all horse are different, heck, all riders are different! How many of us remember that certain dancer who had that light touch, that feel for the music, that no one else ever had again that you danced with! Kinda spoils you for the "rest". The more we understand this, the better it will be for the horse that it isn't just one thing you can learn in snap. And thank you so much Aussie for giving us a clue about how hard it is!

Anybody else have some insight on this we sure would like to hear it! I think Linda is doing it for the good of the horse, I just have not ever seen it as a separate thing to teach, it's just part of a big picture, part of the process. Believe me, I have studied this for years, IMO Dr DEB Bennett has the very best answer to this.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Cnythia, I deleted your other post so as to keep the conversation in one thread.

I would appreciate a description of what her Contact Game is. It is hard to tell from the video. The beginning looks like NO contact on the sorrel horse, total contact without any release on the gray. I'm not sure what the concept is?

At the end, both horses are given a release once they are moving as desired - I guess. I didn't really hear what the instructor was saying.

What is Dr. Deb's answer for contact?

I personally like Niek's, where normal contact should be like holding hands, not like a firm handshake.

I personally like a total release. Not necessarily throwing the reins away, but the horse should know where the release is and earn it, and once earned, it should be maintained.

As for as instruction, I have been taught three types of contact in PNH. One is the longitudinal stretch to the bit with combing (as was shown in the video you posted), one was the 'hands that close slowly and open quickly' from Pat's Levels, that would be a total release. And the third was no contact at all, as with Carrot Stick riding.

I guess I really need a clear definition of what Linda's new concept is to see if it is different or not.

Jack

I may be missing the point of this thread but it seems to me that the only riders not using direct contact (in the preceding vids) are the ones featuring bridleless WP, Uri Peleg and Clinton Anderson. Both Michel Bravard and Catherine Henriquet show a what I call "pulling" on the horse. Nothing wrong with that and they are both pretty riders/ground drivers but it's not riding with minimal contact. (I haven't watched Linda's vid so that isn't included in my thoughts)

I just ride my horses, sometimes with contact, sometimes with none but I'm always aware of contact with the horses mouth. More importantly, the horses are even more concious when it happens. Many accomplished western riders ride on a loose rein and the horse responds to either pressure on the neck or from the riders leg, rarely on the mouth.

There are a lot of similarities in all disciplines but there is also many differences. The most apparent of these differences become obvious when comparing disciplines such as reining vs dressage. I prefer the loose rein but again it doesn't mean that other ways are wrong or less effective. I do believe that the horse probably prefers the least amount of contact possible.

Jack

AlythLong

Actually I think it depends!!! I always used to ride freestyle as per PNH. But I am coming to believe the other way is better. ie. "holding hands" and reducing the amount of contact rather than "throwing away" the contact. Actually that's not quite right. The horse gives himself a lesser amount of contact as he follows the feel (ask). As a matter of interest as to which the horse prefers I think it depends on what type of training he has had. My 2 PNH horses are ok with me throwing the reins at them. But I had a mare that had only had one season of starting and riding then was a broodmare for 10 years. I had a few rides on her thinking it would be good for her to have a job and to make it easier to find her a home. She was uncertain with me riding with a loose rein and definitely preferred me to have a feel on her mouth. But I am sure that is the way she was trained (a show home) and she didn't know what to make of a loose rein!!!

Aussie girl

From what I gathered from Lindas talk with us at the course and from the follow up riding session with Kathy Baar (Parelli instructor), the contact Linda is talking about is what I would classify as more typical dressage, not the upper level stuff, we are talking training level which is contact but not really collection. I kind of think of it as an elastic type of feel between horse and rider, not one pulling, but a definite contact with the mouth. Some horses do seem to prefer a bit more contact, like a firmer elastic, but still a give and take feel to it. And some horses like a lot less. Lindas game of contact is to have the reins with some contact in it and as the horse pushes into the contact a bit with some forward impulsion then you reward by a total release of letting go of the reins like they are on fire.

If I was to do this exercise with my horse, he would wonder where the heck I had gone and lose any collection, or more importantly connection, we may have had and fall on the forehand. He is used to the give and take as I have been taught. One of the important maneuvers in training level is a walk on a long rein where the horse is seeking the bit and teaching them this is all about the give a little and as the horse reaches for the bit, give a little more, but never just throwing the reins away.

I really do like Dr. Deb's articles she has had recently in Eclectic Horseman on "How Horses Work", and she explains contact/collection/connection really well. Her articles are well worth reading several times....I am on my second time through them and more of it is making sense and clicking with me now.

Niek

While Dr. Debs ideas are interesting and great food for thought that certainly hold some truth.. The pictures she uses of her and painty instantly dismiss everything she says.. They have nothing to do with "collection".

As said earlier western vs dressage is a hard topic.. But what she describes in no way i find back in the pictures shes using..

PasoBaby_CarolU

Jack is right in that THIS thread was started to talk about riding correctly with loose reins. I started another thread to discuss contact and Linda's new game.

Technical riding without contact

Re: Technical riding without contact