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Niek

The big dressage topic

It seems to be a re occuring subject in several topics, its also a topic that can lead to some more heated debates. But most of all its a great subject and dressage or maybe a better term, gymastisation is something all horses need.

Put your thoughts down here, discuss, post links etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63g9r9_N3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiP7nsVHizw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CEwvZQVYw
PasoBaby_CarolU

Good topic Niek.   I think we can all agree that we don't need discuss the Kur method at all, since it is so horribly bad for the horse.

Of the three videos you posted, I liked the attitude of the horses in the third video...no tail swishing.  All seemed happy and unstressed.  

It is interesting what you say about developing the athlete that is the horse, since I'd say 90% (maybe more) do no dressage or suppling, and are ridden in all kinds of athletic pursuits, most of them considered sports requiring athletes.    I can tell you that of the hundreds of people I ride with, there are probably less then 10 who do any kind of dressage with their horses.

I think it depends on how you want your horse to carry itself.   If your desired activity requires the horse to be collected and use it's rear end, then I believe Classical dressage is the only way to do this correctly and humanely.   And then you must decide how much you do, and how fast you do it, will you let the horse decide.   As much as I prefer an unstressed horse, and most my activities don't stress my horses, I do believe that sometimes, especially if you push towards any kind of competition, you will stress that horse.
Niek

Maybe I need to define it better, each horse can benefit greatly from these exercises if they are done properly. I do not believe a horse wil completely fall apart with just freestyle (Granted if there are underlaying physical issues, these most likely wont improve) actually far more damage can be done with dressage that is forced

Its a shame only one decent clip of Philippe Karl is on youtube. I prefer him to Bent Branderup. Both are great riders but i believe PK`s horses are in better shape and move more beneficial. the bonus material of his dvd`s show him with his Cadre Noir horse Odin : 0 tail swish and perfect attitude.  Bent Branderup is a great rider though, i just think the way he gets there wont work for all types of horses
coveredbridgefarm

Thanks for this thread.  I have much to learn and I look forward to it.

Never one to shy away from asking dumb questions, here are a few that I'm wondering about regarding competitive dressage?

Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?

Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?  

What exactly do judges look for?  Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results?  Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?  

What do you think horses really think of dressage?  Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?  

And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses?  What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can.  Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?  

Questions, I always have questions.  

Larry
AlythLong

Oh Larry, what fantastic questions!!  I love them and I am really looking forward to the answers, In fact I wish you would post this on COTH!!!  As for doing dressage on small horses- I see in my minds eye tiny women on huge warmbloods trying and trying to get their legs to have an effect!!!  As for the supreme dressage rider - would anyone vote for Anky????  Alyth
oztinks

I will have a go at Larry's questions
Since I am no expert don't expect knowledgeable or intuitive answers just general observations

coveredbridgefarm wrote:

Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?

Dressage is finesse riding, good riders version of freestyle is trail riding or other riding a few days a week
Others just  go round the arena every day

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?  

The classical spanish and French riding schools do all the GP movements and then some from the ground and with longlines
coveredbridgefarm wrote:

What exactly do judges look for?
 
No idea, I think a lot of competitors would like to know the answer to this

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results?

They are suposed to judge both "Happy Athlete" is a much used term

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

Yes but then so do the horses

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?

No one has been unanimously given that mantel, too many opinions abound 

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
What do you think horses really think of dressage?  Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?

Like the cutting horse if it is well trained they enjoy it, we are more likely to see a horse Piaf for joy in the paddock than round up the cows.... though I have a LBE here that would round up the cows while doing piaf

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses?  What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can.  Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?  

Cutting Horses are usually downhill (rump high) they chase cows with low heads much like horses chase and push each other dressage horses are best uphill because the movements require a horse to use the power of engagement, with lowered HQ and ideally be poll high
The big horse thing is a German competition ideal no idea why they like it better maybe they are all really tall?
The classic Iberian horse in more normal size but good dressage is for all horses
PasoBaby_CarolU

I think how much a horse enjoys dressage depends on the horse and the rider.  Some horses prefer direction and not making decisions.   My RBIs are like this.   They do well with repetition and direction.    I think other others get bored to death with arena work.  

When I see the control and precise direction of some "masters" I also see some unhappy horses, especially those that are over tucked and spurred for every step.  I can't imagine a horse that is essentially punished constantly being happy.  No release, no reward.

I do think there is a BIG difference between a horse who herds cows and a true 'cowpony.'   Having lived on a ranch I can tell you there are horses who consider chasing cows work and don't enjoy it one bit, and others LOVE to chase and cut cows.  Those are the TRUE cattle horses.   It's very much like a hunting or herding dog, what they were born to do.   The first horse is a lot of work to ride since you have to direct it after the cows and to go back after a cutback calf or cow.  The cowpony is a joy to put on cows and all you have to do is stay on.   They do ALL the work, read the cows, and keep the herd together and moving.
Julie

cannot do that fancy quote thing still but!

Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?
All school riding could be called dressage as its all flatwork training, but its more finesse than freestyle

Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?  
Most dressage horses are initially trained on the lunge, or using a lunge rein or long reins in some way, it varies according to the methods used.

What exactly do judges look for?  Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results?  Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

They judge the results, but the attitude is also important, ie a tongue hanging out / swishing tail are likely to influence the judge as both a sign of discomfort.

Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?  

Yep - you got that one right! I loved watching Franz Rochowansky teach, he was amazing at picking up the tiniest tension in a horse. Different methods mean that people prefer different riders, though I have huge respect for Lee Pearson!!

What do you think horses really think of dressage?  Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?  

Yes they can do! When a horse develops the muscle and ability to find the movements easy they can really get into it. Especially the extended trot and piaffe. Some horses just love showing off to an audience as well.

And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses?  What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can.  Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?  

You can do dressage with any horse, but if wanting to compete or train to a higher level, I would look for a horse who has a good conformation so as he can develop the muscle required, but mainly one who really, really enjoys learning new things. If they do not enjoy it, then there is no point at all, though my current horse got over his reservations with a few lumps of sugar and some music. Once he got used to using his body in a different way, and being a LBI/E, once he realised that he got a treat if he tried, he now offers to do things! he also adores music!!!
cynthia peterson

All very good answers so far!

What does a judge look for? Other then a attitude of the horse and rider working as one,: Straightness, proper bends, snappy transitions. There is nothing a horse would not be able to do in the pasture without the rider. The whole trouble starts when there is a rider. The horse's balance is different, so the horse has  (or be coached) to learn how to do it with the rider. The reason those dressage riders around me in the Championships last weekend looked so good is because they worked on thier own bodies as much as thier horses bodies were taught to be better at what they did. All those riders knew how to help the horses, they weight the stirrup at the right time, the seat, actually feel what is in need of correction, back off when it is done.  Just like musician knows his instrument so well, has practiced until he becomes almost bored with it,~ until (s)he can carry out the notes and makes music.  This takes time (and making your own tendons and muscles to sit right), and the trick is to have the horse trained in such a way that the horse wants to stay with you at it, no forcing. In fact there is a saying that you have NOTHING if the horses's back is not swinging. That is a relaxed horses's back, a back the horse is giving to you. It trusts you with it, unlike a horse with it's head up and back sunk away from the saddle. I have said before how you can tell how well a horse is ridden by the way it's body is shaped. And part of that shape is what makes the horse stay sound.

There was a french dressage rider Parelli had (I cannot remember his name) He rode Remmer in one of the SC DVDS. I have never seen Remmer rode so well before or after! Remmer did things he had never done, just offered them right up. Linda was amazed! You see, he knew how to ask Remmer to do it. Now you see Linda better then she has ever been with WAZ (but not near as good as the French man) Why would that be? What had WAZ taught her she never got from Pat?  And what would Remmer have been like if he had been owned by the Frenchman?   Or if LInda had lessons from WAZ years ago? Had she been down a blind alley on somethings? Why did she have to seek them somewhere else? Why does Pat have lessons with WAZ. Do some of us not want to wait years and $$$$ latter to have Linda tell us what we can learn NOW? What would Allure be, or the countless other dressage horses that were bought for Linda? What would River have been like (trained by Karen Rohlf) if Pat had not taken her and now she has dissappeared? You see, those horses were bred a special way, a way Parelli could not use. Shutting them down would not work. Maybe Quarter horses, but you have a Sportscar here, not a pickup truck. The mind, the RPMS, different story.

I love to see PK too, And Brent B is good.  And Anja Beran. Google them up. But I have all their DVDs & books.. There are different "schools" of Dressage, generally called "Classicial" and German.  And some of that is because of the type horses they were dealing with. I often think of the best (in recent times) winning dressage rider, Dr. Reiner Klimke from the 80's Even today he is held up to the Gold Standard of everything that was right in dressage.  But he never had a horse bred like the modern horses, they are just super talented. I know he would train the same way (all day in his real job as a DR., then hours of practice everyday) but I suspect these modern horses are so free off of thier shoulders, so naturally collected and balance, what would he have had if he did have to spend years just getting those old fashion horses to the state the modern horses are born with?

And Larry, all horses can be made better with Dressage. Those cutting horses, it is a amazing how they balance in a catlike stance~ with a rider on their back! They are focusing on the work (just like a dressage horse does his work) They are bred to love their work (just ask Pat, he has said so many times) Just like the dressage horse is bred for his. To get to those very high levels (like I seen last weekend) you will need that special bred horse. Any other horse would not be happy with it, it would cruel to ask it to do what it cannot without force, and that is what it would take. And then you have no swinging back...
Julie

Great answers Cynthia - what is your background and influences?
Niek

coveredbridgefarm wrote:


Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?

Can be,  Certain schools do groundwork before riding they do all the exercises on the ground first.  But everything can be broken down in to several little challenges for the horse (isolate seperate recombine)

Quote:
Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?  

Depends who you ask i guess

Quote:
What exactly do judges look for?  Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results?  Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

Everything is important. But imo in modern day dressage they mainly tend to look at that front end is trowing out.

Quote:
Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?  

Depends who you ask just as with nh. But imo you wont find these masters  in the competition ring. I guess if you look at the "masters "  you come to names as Nuno Oliveira, Egon von Neindorff, and in current times Philippe Karl , Bent Branderup  (to name a few, they all represent slightly different schools of thought)

Quote:
What do you think horses really think of dressage?  Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?  
Yes, i think so. But i also think its somewhat breed depended (as much as it is an individual thing ofcourse). Just as for example arabs are horses that are more prone to just wanting to go for miles, horses like P.R.E`s are more prone to do the dancy manouvres

And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses?  What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can.  Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?  

Quote:
Questions, I always have questions.  

Larry

Just my interpetation of things
Niek

cynthia peterson wrote:



There was a french dressage rider Parelli had (I cannot remember his name) He rode Remmer in one of the SC DVDS. I have never seen Remmer rode so well before or after! Remmer did things he had never done, just offered them right up. Linda was amazed! You see, he knew how to ask Remmer to do it. Now you see Linda better then she has ever been with WAZ (but not near as good as the French man) Why would that be? What had WAZ taught her she never got from Pat?  And what would Remmer have been like if he had been owned by the Frenchman?   Or if LInda had lessons from WAZ years ago? Had she been down a blind alley on somethings? Why did she have to seek them somewhere else? Why does Pat have lessons with WAZ. Do some of us not want to wait years and $$$$ latter to have Linda tell us what we can learn NOW? What would Allure be, or the countless other dressage horses that were bought for Linda? What would River have been like (trained by Karen Rohlf) if Pat had not taken her and now she has dissappeared? You see, those horses were bred a special way, a way Parelli could not use. Shutting them down would not work. Maybe Quarter horses, but you have a Sportscar here, not a pickup truck. The mind, the RPMS, different story.

.


I think you mean the session`s with the Spanish GP/ olympic rider Luis  Lucio.  


http://www.luislucio.com/english/doma-nat/index.htm more here

I would love to see what these horses can do under the seat of for example PK or Anja Beran.
cynthia peterson

Yes, Neik, that's the "French"~ a la Spanish guy! Thank you so much. And the website did indicate he is still in the Parelli world. I noticed the picture of him with Karen Rohlf too (my hero) You just have to wonder with a world of talent around Linda that she didn't use them more before?

My background?  Thirty some years ago I was "into" dressage Clinics, etc.) and then branched out into other directions (50 years in horses altogether) I have coached Judging Teams for many years, and am a carded Horse Judge.  I have come back to my love of dressage. Of course, now I am have slow moving, kind natured QHs I had planned on having for the grandkids to ride... go figure...
coveredbridgefarm

I remember Luis Lucio riding Remmer.  He offered to buy Remmer as I recall.  He was just joking, I think.

I'm wondering if we would be expecting Pat Parelli to be teaching dressage if Linda hadn't entered the picture.  Before Linda, Pat was just a guy who could teach folks a few things about handling horses, about communicating with them, and looking at things from the their perspective.  From my vantage point, I thought he did those things well.  I'm thinking Linda raised expectations a little too high when she arrived with her dressage background even if it was a failed background.  

I guess you can either criticize Pat for getting into areas he has no business getting into, or you can give him credit for challenging himself.  It's all a matter of perspective.  

Oztinks wrote:
Quote:
Cutting Horses are usually downhill (rump high) they chase cows with low heads much like horses chase and push each other dressage horses are best uphill because the movements require a horse to use the power of engagement, with lowered HQ and ideally be poll high
That makes sense to me.  I know someone who tried to make a 17 hand SB that she had into an eventing horse.  The horse did fairly well with the dressage part but SBs do not have the hindquarters for jumping.  And the judges wouldn't score her very high in the dressage part either.  She felt they were biased against her use of a SB in the sport of eventing.

I guess I feel compelled to ask this question:  Since saddlebreds are uphill horses, why wouldn't they make good dressage horses?  

Also, since eventing consists of both dressage and jumping(plus cross-country), is eventing a sport that requires contradicting body types, uphill for the dressage part, and downhill for jumping?  

Larry
coveredbridgefarm

Totilas being warmed up by Edward Gal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE


Larry
Julie

Thats a 2007 clinic but he is definately off my christmas card list!
Leah

Actually Edward Gal is amazing too watch.

Truly there is nothing wrong with a rider asking for a horse to stretch to his abilities. I view it no different than Yoga.

Can it be misused? Certainly. Does it mean deep is always bad? Heck no.

Speaking of Edward


http://eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2009/09ec/rep_grandprix3.html
Julie

yes - he is amazing to watch - yes there are always reasons for doing certain things at certain times - I can agree with that - even draw reins have a use occasionally in responsible hands.

But demonstrating such at a public clinic - without justifying it clearly is not really such a clever idea.
coveredbridgefarm

Leah wrote:
Actually Edward Gal is amazing too watch.

Truly there is nothing wrong with a rider asking for a horse to stretch to his abilities. I view it no different than Yoga.

Can it be misused? Certainly. Does it mean deep is always bad? Heck no.

Ok, so someone help me out here.  Is there any consensus about this?  When is it too much?  Should there be zero tolerance?

Larry
Leah

it's called feel and understanding the biomechanics of the horse-how he works.

That gives you the answer.
Niek

Come on leah but with all do respect : i call BS when i see it, and i m seeing it. Edward Gal Basically ruined his last 2 horses. I find it quite disapointing that you think he`s "amazing".  And if its sarcasm, its somewhat misplaced...
Blue Flame

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Totilas being warmed up by Edward Gal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE


Larry
Yuck . . . . just  icky . . .
Leah

I guess to each his own.

I use riding deep regularly now-my horses are more supple, more athletic, cooler, calmer, more in tune.

Overall I find it a very helpful tool when used correctly.

My horses are more attentive to me and 'happy partners' than when I was pure Parelli.

Different perspectives and each can choose.
Niek

Come on of all the people, you have acces to all those people that have pointed out more than once the destructive results of Rollkur (both mental and physical)... Disapoints me
Leah

Correct-done wrong anything is wrong.

I am not talking about hyperflexion for 30 minutes at a time-it is used as an extreme stretching. The horse (or mine) relax into the stretch and you can feel the back lift and the stride opens.

I am not talking yanking the face to the chest.

I would never believe it until I tried some different elements of stretching.

My horses offer the stretch-along with long and low and poll higher-changing often.

It works. and no one is hurt or suffers. Movement improves and athleticism improves.

Again-anything done wrong is wrong.

Things done well reflect in the development of the horse.

I have watched several videos of Gal and i think his horses look very athletic.

Sorry.
Niek

Do more research.

"His horses look very athletic ", since when is that "the" standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZdGBf_9IT4&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5pH5CEoZks&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-yR_BgzHqw&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAOab26FYQ&feature=channel

you think this horse looks happy or that he even gives a !#% that he looks "athletic" ?  , There are no shortcuts to a place worth going.
Leah

ok this is what my most recent research revealed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_FDK04vXaI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-G8_FM2hI0
Niek

Yes so ?  it doesnt bother you one bit that Totilas is trained in the same way as his father Gribraldi ?. So the road to the achieving something is not important as long as there is a result ? for what ever thats worth something if the horse in the end loses. Well you might want to take this as a good example than



But for your entertainment, and im sure your more than familiair with these people

http://www.amazon.com/Twisted-Tru...oks&qid=1251662476&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Tug-War-Cla...oks&qid=1251662476&sr=8-3

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php
Julie

His horses do look athletic - obviously more exercises than just hyperflexion are used, which is similar to over use of draw reins. Would you use draw reins to pull the head to the chest - this is the same without draw reins

Leah - have you read tug of war?

When I saw him ride - at that point in time - the horse looked great - but usin hyperflexion to get there to the point when you feel demonstrating it in public is fine is not IMO. He cannot use it continuously as it would show in the muscle development. i did some classical judge training and the classical judges can spot correct and incorrect muscles before a horse even enters the arena as the differnce can be so marked.

One friend, not understanding the difference was taught to school his young horse in draw reins by one dressage trainer. He moved to germany and spent the next 6 months with another trainer on the  lunge, long reins and chiropractor, rebuilding the horse so as it could work correctly before he could even ride it, nothing was too much trouble.

Both of these trainers are riders at GP level, but what a difference in attitude.
Leah

Look, I am not saying you MUST do this or that. I am not on your horse.

I am sharing my experiences with something.

It is no big deal. If my horses were to begin to suffer from something (as they did with Parelli) I would move on.

I am sure we could all find isolated photos of most riders that look ugly.

I personally have never seen such amazing results with what I am currently doing in terms of training my horses.

I use many different theories of training.

It works for us.
Julie

Just realised I agree with Niek!
Blue Flame

The 1st thing I notice about Totilas is the overbent thing - which leads to the 4th thing I notice.

The 2nd thing I notice is Totilas broken at the 3rd vertebra.

The 3rd thing I notice is that Tortilas has a low head position (I consider a bit below the hip as low) which also leads to the 4th thing.

The 4th thing I notice is Totilas on the forehand - he seems to be working so hard up front compared to his HQ which just seem to be along for the ride.

The reason for the 1st thing (overbent) leading to the 4rd thing (on the forehand) is described by PK in this article:
http://www.philippe-karl.com/modu...amp;location_id=354&topicid=3
Quote:
Knowing in addition that, being located halfway between the natural attitude and the extension of the neck, overbending transfers approximately 10 kg towards the forehand..


The reason for the 3rd thing leading to the 4th thing is given by PK in the same article:

Quote:
The following analysis results from simple calculations based on well-known experimental data (General Morris - Captaine de Saint Phalle):

•Free standing and in natural carriage, the extra loading of the forehand is on average 1/9 of the weight.
•2/3 of the weight of the seated rider is borne by the forelimbs.  
•From this natural attitude, if the neck is lowered or raised, it transfers 1/20th to 1/25th of the horse′s weight towards the shoulders or towards the haunches.


So for a 500kg horse, that's an extra 30kg tranferred to the forehand.

So far as Rolkur or hyperflexion goes, Paul McGreevy speculates in his article "Science in the Saddle" that it may lead to learned helplessness - a condition yet to be explored in horses. http://www.nzerf.co.nz/Attachments/Science%20in%20the%20Saddle.pdf

During the Bomac lectures in 2008, Paul McGreevy also showed us diagrams of how a horse's field of vision is altered during hyperflexion - basically it is rotated through about 90 degrees and they can't see much in front of them - might explain the rider focus thing . . . . .

Here's the major thing I'm trying to come to grips with . . . . a horse uses his head and neck for balance in much the same way as many other animals use their tails . . . . so how much are we taking away from the horse when we restrict that movement? . . . . I don't profess to know the answer, but their is an ex-international rider over here who is teaching young riders to let the horse have the rein on the cross country courses and the most frequent comment they are getting is that these horses have beautiful rhythm.
coveredbridgefarm

Blue Flame wrote:
Quote:
The 4th thing I notice is Totilas on the forehand - he seems to be working so hard up front compared to his HQ which just seem to be along for the ride.
Exactly.  And now I think we know why.

Larry
Niek

thanks for pointing out all the obvious stuff BF
Leah

Yes I have read Tug Of War.

Of course the horse is not ridden 100% in hyperflexion.

Well it is interesting that everyone thinks the horse is on his forehand.

I have never seen a horse on the forehand look like that-but what do I know.

I am not interested in debating, defending or arguing.

I simply shared.

There are many exercises, when used properly, can add to a training program.

When I can score a world record in dressage then I will throw stones.

Until then I will keep an open mind and learn from those that are more achieved than I am.
Blue Flame

Leah wrote:
When I can score a world record in dressage then I will throw stones.
So does that give Anky immunity?
Leah wrote:
I simply shared.
Thanks for sharing  
Leah

Look I never said (actually said the opposite) that i agree with man handling a horse nose to chest for 30 minutes.

A horse will softly offer the stretch.

Is yoga a form of hyperflexion? Excessive stretching? Placing an athlete's body in positions that he uses 'in the closet' but does not use when competing?

Are the positions VERY demanding at first? Even cause some discomfort and tail swishing? Is the human better for it if done correctly?

Does weight lifting ever cause discomfort or tail swishing?

Can it be done to the point of causing pain or damage? Can it be used to push an athlete to the next level.

Think about it.

When you finish for the day, the horse will let you know if you helped or hurt him.
Scarlet Belle

While some was disturbing...we do admit we allow here, each to choose their instructors.  Mine is very light.  I am glad.   None of that stuff.  But, can we be less finger pointing just because one person is choosing to go one way and another... another way?

Leah, has studied a lot, because I have read her stuff.  Why are we judging her for her choice?  She is not going to be abusive to her horses.  I can tell you that anyone coming out of PNH...despite the difficulty of leaving it and moving on with your life, would still respect the genuine foundation of what it originally was intended to be when it was started.

IMHO,
BTW, I love Phillpe Karl.  I, also, love to take the dressage lessons I take  and now, I have introduced more friends to it.  We use lightness techniques.  

I have friends that show up every Wednesday at my house for lessons from an English instructor.  She is , also, gentle, but help them....they are in their 50's and never took lessons ..just rode.

Sonya
Julie

Leah - great discussion!

I agree, and know exatly what you mean.

But would you not agree that a highly skilled movement for a few minutes to achieve a stretch, when used by a trained person is one thing.

But if this is then publicised and demonstrated in such a way, that it is then copied by unskilled people using it incorrectly, for longer periods of time, causing damage, then is this not irresponsible.

He was demonstrating this at a clinic to an audience on the clip in question.

Certainly when I saw him myself the horse was relaxed and showed very little tension.

No - he is not on his forehand though!
Leah

I LOVE PK as well-and just remember there are JUST as many finger pointers at his 'high hands' way of training.

Not classical at ALL according to some-and look at his results!
Niek

Comparing rollkur and riding btv to yoga ?.  This should be compared to the young overflexed child gymasts who`s body give in at age 30 or earlier.

Yoga is far better compared to supling the body bringing it into balance, something that is done with proper gymnastic excerises : shoulder in travers renvers

edit : Klassisch is something else than classical..
Scarlet Belle

With my trainer in a lesson...I prepare my horse by tacking up and then, I mount and walk on the buckle.  We do this for about 10 minutes to get the muscles moving before any contact is made.  I may ask the horse to do a circle or go to a letter, etc.  but on the buckle during and several times during the lesson.  People who do dressage realize the movements are complicated.

So there are many times during a lesson where contact is dropped and the horse is on the buckle and the trainer is talking to the student.

I tell you when I took three day event lesson the horse never got a break!


Sonya
Niek

Dr. Gerd Heuschmann said about Philippe Karl :

Quote:
“I was lucky, the top four or five trainers of his system were there, riding, and
I didn’t trust my eyes, this was dressage, unbelievable – the whole day long.
They can’t show me a fake for a whole day. They came in long rein, piaffe,
but a real piaffe on the hindlegs, this was perfect dressage.”
“He is very special, he is the guy with these high hands but I went there for
two days to study him, he has some very interesting ideas, if you could use
some of his ideas then you could stop people from pulling. There is no need
to pull – his way the horse starts chewing and is relaxed and the back is up.”
(The Horse Magazine, Australia, July 2009)


Quote:
“During the time I spent watching his training, I had the honour of witnessing
something that corresponds absolutely to the ideal picture of dressage riding
which I have in my mind. A soft and flexible poll, the finest contact, horses
always ready to stretch, and of paces full of 'schwung' and always with an
exquisite relationship between the hand of the rider and the mouth of the
horse.
The foundations of Mr Karl’s work correspond exactly to the philosophies of
good horse riding of the last century. I simply cannot understand why Mr Karl
is not held in the highest regard, especially at the top competition level. This
visit has demonstrated to me yet again what a dead-end street competition
dressage is navigating.
There is truly much over which to despair and resign. But since it is the horses
who are tortured every day, we do not have the right to abandon them or to
retreat into our shells. We must think of the future and try to bring the culture
of dressage riding in all its aspects back into human conscience. In only a few
days I have become convinced that Mr Karl has a decisive role to play in this
context.”
(Piaffe magazine, Germany, September 2008).

Someone far more achieved  in his field.

I certainly dont think  PK is the 0 to hero instant result or that he does everything perfectly. It takes time, and it took more than just PK for my horse to improve. I got stuck and found answers elsewhere (Bill Dorrance/ Leslie Desmond)  Ive got multiple books next to my bed from most different schools. Generally most of them have something to offer. But Rollkur is something im principly against.  Apart from perfect scores i dont see any good from it
Julie

Ok - so what books you got next to your bed right now!
Scarlet Belle

Learning takes time. That why we try.  That is why we are here.  To learn and I think that is great.

PK is good imho.  Why?  Because I don't compared to him.  I have a trainer that says to me lightness.  Leg slight back to tell the horse.  Don't move your hands, keep your pinky on the horse to not move your hands.

Yet, at the canter it is scooch, scooch, scooch with my seat and give with the reins...so it is a process of learning...some are beyond me.  So I watch them with respect.  The seat is similar to what is taught in pnh, just not as far back in the lean and not leaning with your horse, instead look where you are going.

Not the ones who are harsh, but the ones who love the horse and treat it with respect and give it breaks during the times when we ask the harder things.

How cool is that, that they are considerate to do that?  Because, we do that much of my lesson is on the buckle!  

Plus, I feel sloppy at times like I am not with the horse and so I don't go into the next transition when told to if I can tell that I am really bad at say the trot, we aren't going to jump right into the canter until I have a better seat and my hands are better...for the horse.  I don't want to be bumping her mouth.

We do a lot of light flexion to gently ask her to bring her head to the verticle before ever leaving the walk to a trot.  Elbows must be giving with the movement of the horse's head while hands are quiet.

I think PK is one of the gentler dressage trainer's.  I have watched his DVDs.  Not just a clip.

Sonya
Niek

Nuno Oliveira - reflections on an equistrian art.
sherry ackerman - dressage in the fourth dimension
Sally Swift - centered riding
and last the Complete Training of Horse and Rider by Alois Podhajsky

confessions
Leah

Niek wrote:


I certainly dont think  PK is the 0 to hero instant result or that he does everything perfectly. It takes time, and it took more than just PK for my horse to improve. I got stuck and found answers elsewhere (Bill Dorrance/ Leslie Desmond)  Ive got multiple books next to my bed from most different schools. Generally most of them have something to offer. But Rollkur is something im principly against.  Apart from perfect scores i dont see any good from it


Ohhhhhhh so you look at different ideas, try different things and see what works?

So you are totally against riding deep? Something that has been around LONG before rollkur?

Why?

I am serious. Why is round and deep (if done respectfully and part of an OVERALL training program) bad? Specifically. Not what you have read-what you have FELT by trying to...sensing the response?
Niek

Deep riding and extreme flexions has been around since Baucher hes considerd the inventor of it, he`s also big on flexions of the jaw , also aware of that. Guessing you know this, you also know what people said those days and how apperently his horses all felt..

Ive felt the result. And been trying my hardest to fix the result, as my horse has been there. Ive seen enough horses get wasted because of it.  And ofcourse we can go hide behind , it must have been done faulty or wrong.  

I belief en felt better results are achieved with down and foreward stretches and decent building of the body, More than a few people are  proof of this.

My horse is my proof and im just scratching the surface.  Just as you i look for far more acomplished people, but i do not give a crap for scores gold medals or what ever. I care for my horse and do dressage for him.

If results is all to go by i guess that WP legend and his method can be aproved of. Abuse is Abuse. And i belief far more accomplished people : like Dr Heuschmann when they say they find more and more evidence that Rollkur has negative effects.
Leah

Again, to each his own. I am not saying it is the only way or all I do.

Deep flexions have proven VERY beneficial to me and others I personally know.

I am not a horse abuser, my friends are not horse abusers.

You don't have to agree-I even welcome disagreement.

That said, I stand by what I have said.

And that said, I really don't have anything else to say.

And no hard feelings on my mind-I hope there are none on yours.
TrickMule

Decarpentry's book is very good IMHO.
Julie

Trickmule - had to go see as not heard of him!

I love the constant feedback new people to go and read!!

http://horsesforlife.com/MastersWhoisDecarpentry

Does anyone subscribe to Horsesfor life by the way??
AlythLong

So what are "deep flexions"?
Peeperpuppy

coveredbridgefarm wrote:
Blue Flame wrote:
Quote:
The 4th thing I notice is Totilas on the forehand - he seems to be working so hard up front compared to his HQ which just seem to be along for the ride.
Exactly.  And now I think we know why.

Larry


I really love Totilas.  He shows such promise but they'll run him into the ground.  That particular link made me turn pale... my husband said so.  Then he said I started getting red & he figured someone ticked me off.  He was right.

Deep stretching is okay in small doses, done with respect for the horse's body, his mind.  That demonstration however made me want to polish my boots as someone needed a swift kick.  


The thing that always worries me is the holy grail of winning (the big trophy) is often sought & obtained by the big names who are willing to do anything... ANYTHING... to achieve & receive the big trophy.  People look up to them & say, "well, when I went the big trophy/competetion I can throw stones".  That's the problem.  The stonning should happen to judges who award trophies to riders whose horses are over bent & being burned up.  If the rocks got thrown at the judges & they were a little fearful of the uprising when they award prizes to these folks... the nasty-stuff would stop.  It's why I took my walking papers & changed my phone number because I wouldn't do it.  Period.  ((Okay, I've kicked the soap box out from under my own feet & I'm OFF the box.... & the crowd goes wild LOL)).

But I'd have to say I always likened Dressage to a number of things: yoga (preparation for the body to excel), aerobics/cardio workout (strengthening the body), endurance building/weight lifting (enhancing the body) & so on as you go through the levels until you reach something similar to ballet or ballroom dancing (or whatever you prefer to term it).  Or at least that was what I was taught.  It's the basic foundation to excel your horse through communication, fitness, suppling, etc...
coveredbridgefarm

Peeperpupy wrote:
Quote:
Deep stretching is okay in small doses, done with respect for the horse's body, his mind.
I guess I could ask if anything demanded of the horse that is unnatural really shows respect for the horse.  That's what natural horsemanship is all about as I understand it.  Of course, one could argue that riding a horse is unnatural, but putting that aside for the purpose of this discussion, is rollkur unnatural in any dose, or is it only unnatural when it exceeds a yet-to-be-defined level of dosage?  

From what I have read about rollkur(and that's not much) classical dressage does not approve of rollkur. Is that correct?

If so, what is this other type of dressage called that does seem to approve, or at least condone, the use of rollkur?

Larry
Leah

Larry is asking a horse to push around a green ball, stand on an elephant stand, or jump picnic barrels natural?

I am not asking to be snotty.

I think Peeperpuppy explained it very nicely.
Peeperpuppy

double post
coveredbridgefarm

Leah wrote:
Quote:
Larry is asking a horse to push around a green ball, stand on an elephant stand, or jump picnic barrels natural?
Leah, I think we need to accept the argument that "natural", as in NH, is a relative term.  Halters and bridles aren't natural either but they aren't necessarily injurious to a horse either mentally or physically, but they can be in the wrong hands.  Other than perhaps watching a herd of wild horses from a distance, anything that man does to a horse is not technically natural but I think there are many unnatural things that man does with a horse that come with an acceptable risk of damage to the horse.  Pushing a green ball around is unnatural but risk to the horse, either mental or physical, is arguably acceptable(I suppose the horse could spook and run into the fence).  Jumping over a picnic table is unnatural and probably is an unacceptable risk for injury, at least for most horse/rider pairs.  

So, maybe rollkur(deep flexion) falls in the picnic table category but even more so.  In the wild, horses do flex and they do jump over things but not with a human on their back demanding that they do so. Whether jumping and rollkur pose an unreasonable risk to the horse would seem to depend upon the skill and judgment of the rider.  There are some horses that should never attempt to jump over a picnic table and there are some picnic tables that no horse should attempt to jump over. Maybe there is some level of deep flexion that can be done on some horses and some levels of deep flexion that should never be attempted on any horse. Determining what is an acceptable level of deep flexion(as well as picnic table size) apparently is left up to the rider's judgment and skill level as there is not one size that fits all.  

After looking at some tapes of horses being subjected to rollkur lately, I think I have to conclude that some of those riders have been sadly lacking in judgment and/or skill and the horse suffers for it. Isn't that really the problem? Rollkur is a powerful technique fraught with a tendency to be overused. It looks like it is a little bit like playing with dynamite.  If a horse is ruined by rollkur, you know it was too much.  But by then it's too late.  Until a horse is ruined, one could always argue that it's not too much.  How much confidence do you have in relying on the judgment of humans to determine that fine biomechanical line between a beneficial level of flexion and damage to the horse?  

I can see why this is such a hot button issue in the dressage world.

Larry
Leah

Larry I agree with you-it IS sad to see many training systems misused.

I think though you should consider the other side. I have seen some of the poorest conditioned horses in the Parelli program. Owners mean well but mis-use the program and the horse suffers.

Horses drilled to death in the name of 'playing'

Which is worse? Or IS there a worse? Perhaps both mis-uses are equally bad.
coveredbridgefarm

Leah, I understand your point.  It just seems like rollkur is a very powerful technique which can be easily misused to the horse's detriment when applied to the horse by an unskilled and/or uncaring rider in a demanding sport.  

I think that's different than the Parelli situation where his focus was originally on helping the average or below average rider learn a few basic horse handling skills.  If some of his techniques have proved detrimental to the horse, I see it more as a case of omission rather than submission.  It's one thing to inadvertently(giving Pat the benefit of the doubt here) omit something a horse needs(like biomechanics) and another thing to submit a horse to more than it needs(like rollkur).

In my mind, and as always I could be wrong, I see a difference there.

Larry
PasoBaby_CarolU

Interesting thread, I've learned a lot this morning (haven't gotten much else done though!).  

I only wanted to interject that really nothing we do with horses is "natural" except eating them.   I think the "natural" in "natural horsemanship" is limited to communications between horse and human, to teach the HUMAN how horses communicate, so they can train in a way that is more natural to the horse and easier for the horse to understand.

Everything we do after that is for the human's use of the horse, in whatever sport or endeavor they pursue.   I think "humane horsemanship" is probably a more correct term for what most of us try to do with our horses.
Leah

I agree Larry.

I also wanted to mention one other thing-when *I* refer to deep flexions, I do NOT 'demand'-that I disagree with on every level.

I ask and set up the horse to offer.

BIG difference.

Funny thing-I grew up riding hunters and we always would ask a horse to go round as part of our daily training-it was not special or controversial. Just one technique in many used to develop a horse.

I also think there is a difference in 'deep and round' vs rollkur-the difference may be subtle (maybe ask vs. demand?)-but in my mind this is a difference.
coveredbridgefarm

Carol wrote:
Quote:
I think the "natural" in "natural horsemanship" is limited to communications between horse and human, to teach the HUMAN how horses communicate, so they can train in a way that is more natural to the horse and easier for the horse to understand.
So maybe natural only applies to a few things like the WHRs?  But even then I wonder if it applies because man's very presence may make the word "natural" inapplicable.

Quote:
I think "humane horsemanship" is probably a more correct term for what most of us try to do with our horses.
I think that would be more accurate but it does seem to lose the suggestion that the focus is on the natural mind of the horse(humane being a reference to the mind of the human instead).  

Isn't it  amazing how many concepts lack an appropriate word to adequately reference them?  

Quote:
I also think there is a difference in 'deep and round' vs rollkur-the difference may be subtle (maybe ask vs. demand?)-but in my mind this is a difference.
I would like to see comments from others addressed to this point.  Is this an "ask-vs-demand" issue?

Larry
jwilhite

PasoBaby_CarolU

What a great picture...and I cracked up at their writeup of it!  "not even a double Olympic Champion could curb the instinct..."  

Spook in place is basic foundation training.   Here, this horse, supposedly the best trained horse in the world, has holes in his foundation.

But I'll bet he can bend with the best of them.
coveredbridgefarm

Jwilhite wrote:
Quote:
Larry, be careful though if you start using rollkur and such...Anky Van Grunsven's horse ranaway with her a few years ago.   She couln't stop him.
Just like Carol said, that horse doesn't have a good foundation.  He's acting like race horses act who also don't have a good foundation. They don't have a "stop" either. The OTTBs I've been around won't stop until you run them into a corner.

Maybe this is what Pat meant when he said that he often watches what everyone else does and then does just the opposite.  

Larry
jwilhite

Peeperpuppy

jwilhite, thanks for posting that link.  To me Anky gets awarded prizes when there is nothing there to reward but that's my opinion.


Coveredbridge,

What should be seen in Dressage should be quite natural as the movements are things horses do preform on their own without the rider.  I have seen piaffe, passage, shoulders-in, flying lead changes, etc...  All are done by the horse effortlessly.  The trick is supposed to be in building a relationship, obedience, acceptance of the rider's aids, etc...  All of this can be very natural or it can be forced.  It is never beautiful when it's forced, when the very beauty of the movement is so bastardized it's not recognizable.

I've seen a little man climb up on an unfamiliar horse bareback with nothing more than a snaffle bit in the horse's mouth & seen the horse go from frightened or combatative to accepting... to welcoming.  Before it got there the horse ran away first inside himself, then with the man astride him but the rider ran with him, quietly and without fear showing the horse that he would be with him afraid & fast or quiet & still.  It was not a matter of breaking the horse.  It was a matter of being different than those who paid $45,000 for him only to wreck his very soul.  Then it became friendly.  The horse is neither trapped or forced.  When he offers he is praised & rewarded.  When he panics, he is shown by the rider that 'it's okay', the rider can be trusted & the rider will ask for no more than what the horse can live with.  While some may say riding a horse is unnatural... I disagree.  When the rider is a horseman & he listens to the horse & forms a partnership instead of a dictatorship.  Instead of a mindset of "YOU MUST" the mindset is, "can you?"... "can we?"  Then the horse offers & everything from there is beautiful.  It may not be perfect but it is natural because fear, pain, mistrust has no place in such a forging of two creatures of a different species.  In my mind, this is a true union.  It is natural because both are willing participants. 

There are a great many things humans do to horses but all living things have a choice to make:  they bend, they break, or they fight it to the death.  The horse is a kind soul who often permits being bent or broken but there are a few who have fire in their souls who will die before they submit.  There are humans who get great satisfaction out of bending or breaking... & yes, even seeing that firy soul to death.  My grandpa said time is precious so don't waste it with those who are not fit company but as I was taught those who seek to forge a union in a kind & beautiful way are doing something very natural... albeit different than most of the crowd.
Peeperpuppy

Coveredbridge,

the other thing I wanted to point out on the extreme stretching is that it shouldn't be done without prior & proper preparation.  If you work out, lifting weights... you do a number of reps & over time you add more weight so you continue to build muscle mass.  As the body becomes more fit you can do more.  The extreme stretching can be done with a horse who has participated willingly in stretching, asking for a little more, releasing.  Personally I have never done this with all the contraptions I've seen used on a horse but I rode 2 horses I referred to as the rubber band twins.  They were little contortionists.  But their owner/rider spent a long time building their bodies, stretching, supplying & conditioning & they were never expected to hold an extreme stretch for long or to work with their heads tied unnaturally.  Never tied.  Never by use of equipment.  If I ask it's with my hands.  I'd never ask a horse to do something that I find painful so you can bet I've stretched myself the same way & have an idea of how long before it goes beyond a stretch.  Just as it is with yoga, the horse who learns it feels good, will offer it & there's never a need to force or tie them up that way.
coveredbridgefarm

Peeperpuppy wrote:
Quote:
I've seen a little man climb up on an unfamiliar horse bareback with nothing more than a snaffle bit in the horse's mouth & seen the horse go from frightened or combatative to accepting... to welcoming.
I don't know if you're referring to your grandfather in this instance but I seem to recall a post by you on the Savvy Forum quite a long time ago where you described him riding a mare when he didn't know anyone was watching.  Except that you were watching and your recollection of that scene was profoundly memorable.  How lucky you are to have been around a real natural horseman.

Larry
Peeperpuppy

Yes, I am referring to my Grandpa.  Not because he's my grandfather but because he truly was the most amazing horseman I have ever had the privelage of being around.  The moonlight ride was - by far - one of the most treasured memories I have of anything in my life.  Dressage at its finest & him in his summer weight coveralls     But the ride i mentioned in your quote was a different one.  We'd been summonsed to get a stallion ready for sale.  He'd been purchased for a rich man's daughter who wanted to play at dressage rider.  He was violent by the time we got ahold of him.  The horse had come to the place of scaring humans to death.  He was good at it.  I can't remember if it was a week or 2 weeks that he was with that stallion but he rode the horse bareback & the bridle was only rigged up with a mild snaffle.  I was set to argue about this because of Grandpa's age & how quickly everything could go wrong.  But Grandpa just smiled & pointed out that trust must be extended from both sides.  To betray the horse with all the tools that had been used against him to damage him, tie him up & harm him was to be like everyone else.

I can still close my eyes & remember the laughter as the horse broke into an extended trot that's just to die for.  He was rounded in the back, completely engaged & moving like a dream.  All that fire was being put to use through the work.  Grandpa was laughing out loud cheering him on.

Grandpa said people demand, they insist & when things don't go their way they look for short cuts to force.  But beautiful things aren't made by force.  Grandpa called force a crime.  More than once I remember him saying, "when it's rape & robbery there are laws against those crimes but when it's a horse or a dog... it's called training".  To his eyes it was still just a crime of force.  Man thinks it's his devine right to command.  Grandpa said often that sure, the horse would be happy just grazing all his/her life but when a human teaches the horse that he is a friend & then he shows the horse he is a friend - not by force but by gaining trust & not abusing it... well, then you have something.  

The results are... the dance.  I never saw him dismount a horse that he didn't put the reins or rope up on the neck & walk away.  I never saw a horse let him walk away.  They followed him & stayed with him because it was as good for them as it was for him... always.

When dressage is done in partnership with the horse it is just that beautiful because the horse isn't just a tool.
coveredbridgefarm

Peeperpuppy wrote:
Quote:
What should be seen in Dressage should be quite natural as the movements are things horses do preform on their own without the rider.  I have seen piaffe, passage, shoulders-in, flying lead changes, etc...  All are done by the horse effortlessly.  The trick is supposed to be in building a relationship, obedience, acceptance of the rider's aids, etc...  All of this can be very natural or it can be forced.  It is never beautiful when it's forced, when the very beauty of the movement is so bastardized it's not recognizable.
It looks like someone needs to teach dressage judges the difference between forced and natural.  If that happens(unlikely), I suspect that riders like Anky and Edward Gal will never win another ribbon.

Quote:
The results are... the dance.  I never saw him dismount a horse that he didn't put the reins or rope up on the neck & walk away.  I never saw a horse let him walk away.  They followed him & stayed with him because it was as good for them as it was for him... always.

When dressage is done in partnership with the horse it is just that beautiful because the horse isn't just a tool.
If only that attitude could be taught to everyone who has anything to do with horses.  I'm afraid that is less likely to happen than herding cats.

Larry
Scarlet Belle

Aweome Post, Carol!  Love the Humane Horsemanship prase.

Sonya
Leah

I have a serious question for those that think REQUESTING deep flexions is somehow cruel.

Have you ever asked your horse for lateral flexion? Like nose to my toes?

What is the difference?

I am not being snarky-to me a request is the same.
Julie

Leah - any movement which does not cause distress can be needed at some point for some reason - my chiro turns the horses inside out and they love it. If you request and the horse agrees and is able and is also able to release when necessary, so long as you have the knowledge of what you are asking and its not causing damage then thats ok. I understand exactly what you are saying.

Occasional Rollkur may be ok, but not when its continuous, held in position and especially setting an example for people who have no idea of what or why, or when, just that by doing it they bend the neck like Anky does so will obviously create a dressage horse. The kids are even trying it in some pics I have seen.

What is the difference in extended Rollkur, and using draw reins.
Leah

Julie-agree
jwilhite

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think draw reins would only be similar to RolKur if the head is held in that over-flexed position.   Most people adjust draw reins to hold the head on the vertical, not behind it.    Draw reins might even be more humane in that the horse can tuck more and find a release.  With hands, they just tighter and tighter.
Leah

The benefit? I guess it depends on whom you ask!

What I have noticed since asking my horse to constantly change between long/low, deep,round and more 'show posture' and hunter hack posture...

I change these throughout the workout-depending on what he needs in the moment.

He is very focused...very 'through' his back-it is lifted and his hind end is VERY engaged.

His shoulder is very free compared to before.

He is far more relaxed while being very attentive-waiting for the next request and eager to comply.

When you finish a ride you can tell if you got him to use his back properly by how he walks when he finishes.

He gets it every ride.

Today my mom watched us for the first time in a few weeks and was floored at how his movement had improved. She said he floats more and she could not believe the suppleness in his shoulder-keep in mind this is a little 15.2+h QH/Paint/TB so swingy shoulder is not exactly genetic.

The biggest difference from before is his back getting properly lifted.

NOW to be fair I am also doing long/low correctly with contact-he gives a slight flexion even during his stretches...no dangly neck on the end of his body.

His entire topline is changing-very soft supple strong looking topline and any developed underneck is reducing...now this could be from the entire workout of course because we do a ton of different things (as listed above).

His muscles are also developing in the correct places as opposed to teh 'draw rein' hump you see in horses ridden with the hand only.

You must know how to get him to step up to do any of this properly, otherwise it is just riding his face.

The contact is there but like-but not like a fish handshake.

I do all kinds of things in each posture-transitions, direction changes, figures and shapes-always changing things.

My horses' become very defeated and sour by the end of Parelli-they did not enjoy me.

Now the horses are very engaged with me-they are proud athletes not just tricksters.

I am not saying all Parelli horses are like that-but mine were just not 'proud' doing those things after a while.

It is hard to describe but very obvious.
PasoBaby_CarolU

I think anyone who has done stretch exercises can realize the benefit of stretching....all directions and all muscles.  

But, a stretch is a LOT different then being held in a flexed position for any period of time.
Leah

agree!
Julie

Lol - you have not seen UK draw rein users Carol, chins to chest is the norm!! I do know one dressage rider who rides like this when preparing horses for sale, but never uses them on his own horses!

You can tell by a horses topline how it has been trained. I completed a classical dressage judging course, and all the trainers would know if the horse had been trained in draw reins when a horse just came into sight by the topline!!
PasoBaby_CarolU

Julie, they do that here, both Western and English, tie the horse in for headset.   In western (and Paso Finos) they also tie to the side for hours.   I've also seen horses that were flexed from the saddle so much and for 'punishment' they automatically go to flex and shut down for protection.  It takes a lot longer to untrain bad things then to train good ones in the first place.

I agree any training aid and technique can be overdone...and is everytime a person puts the end result over the welfare of the horse.   Draw reins, as I was taught to use them are NEVER adjusted behind the vertical and are started where the horse normally holds it's head relaxed, so they don't learn to nose out first.  

There isn't a tool in existence that can't be misused.
coveredbridgefarm

Carol wrote:
Quote:
In western (and Paso Finos) they also tie to the side for hours.
I've seen cutting horses subjected to this also.  You are correct.  Man finds many ways to abuse horses.  

Larry
Julie

Can we have a new subject yet - would love to compare methods etc as I have been combining clicker with PK as now got videos - yep Niek - really!
Niek

Im not a big fan of clicker (Different discussion), but im curious to hear how you combine the two. What do you reward ?, im guessing you use the clicker as a brigde to reward postures/relaxation of the jaw ?
Julie

yep!

I have a large horse who has been hacking with OH since being broken.

He has come to me at 7 and I love him to bits, but he is very opinionated. He is on his forehad and leans like mad when you have a rein contact at all, squeaks and takes off when his opinion differs from yours, was incredibly strong to the point of being dangerous. He was incredibly unpleasant to ride, with glimpses of what he could be.

He did basic parelli to level two in 3 weeks with James Roberts last year to try and rebuild relationship with OH.

So I had to use different methods to go through all the layers of problems here - been interesting!

Heather Moffat - pelham to relax the jaw and get him walking out without leaning to let him get confident and stop bolting. parelli - loads of sideways to help flexion and relaxation. Lunging with pessoa to encourage use of topline and engaging back end. Chiropractor  - to help with flexability - found locked shoulders - needed to help him use both shoulders and not lean. TTouch  - to link front to back and teach where hooves are. Also to rock back on shoulders and release muscles in shoulders. Clicker - to encourage rocking back and help with halts - to encourage full movement along topline. Decreased this to click when carrying head and flexing jaw. Pk - now all pk - lunging, flexion and carrying head himself now, clicker to indicate when carriage correct and again to help establish halt. Also in hand to bridge to the correct shoulder carriage as this is a problem for him - he needs to know its right and the clicker re-enforces this and his confidence!

I don't use clicker all the time, only to re-enforce when I need a certain behaviour, stretch or position!

Its has been interesting and has taken 6 months so far. He is getting better everyday and loves schooling which he never used to, trying for me, its like a light dance a lot of the time now, but he still flops when hacking out if my attention strays! The main thing is go at his pace and never rush him, but let him develop in his own way, as his muscles develop so he can carry himself a little longer. I had a lesson when we asked him to trot a bt faster - it took me two weeks to get his carriage back after that, so I now know not to push him out of his balance and rhythm. Does that mean I am now doing the training scales???

If anyone has any more ideas on other methods which may combine - please let me know.
Niek

, so what are your results/feelings sofar with his ideas etc ?
Chablis

PasoBaby_CarolU wrote:
What a great picture...and I cracked up at their writeup of it!  "not even a double Olympic Champion could curb the instinct..."  

Spook in place is basic foundation training.   Here, this horse, supposedly the best trained horse in the world, has holes in his foundation.

But I'll bet he can bend with the best of them.


And look at the lovely expression on HIS face... what beautiful exhuberance.

Speaking of Anky, I picked up a horse magazed called the Horse (Aussie mag) and lo and behold, a picture of Anky riding a QH... seems she wants to learn how to do reining (and she looked really relaxed).
oldmac_donald

LOL@image of Anky doing WP. I think Pat has done a caricature of some riding style that would fit this image perfectly!

Julie, I find clicker training very useful for teaching good habits in my dogs - they love it! I haven;t been using the clicker for the horses as I am too lazy, but I use treats when "lunging" to encourage good attitudes, as my Appy mare is none too motivated by lunging (use it as bonuses not bribes!).

I love it how PK moves around when lunging - "it is boring to stand in one spot!".

I have had brilliant results (like my horse's chiro and now my instructor going "wow! this horse is so much better then the train wreck you bought! wow!") with Karen Rohlf's groundwork (free lunging using body language to say "WOW! that's it! Stop!" or to be able to touch the horse and go-with without disrupting her movement).

I think trot poles, in-hand work (Dr Deb, Anja Beran, PK) and lunge work on/off line (KR) are the building blocks that worked for me and Bella. Touch wood, but her stifle issues (loose, locking) and slight back problems, primarily arising from stifle-trauma and bad saddle-fit, and her high-hollow-headedness and drag-along-with-front-feet are behind us.

Wonderful feeling, really.
Julie

Oldmac - we had the same stifle etc problems, which are also behind us. I felt it was a parelli thing as he was so on his forehand that he had no muscle behind. he has now gone up 3 saddle widths.


Niek - like the videos, I was already into Racinet who is very very similar, but seeing it on video made it clearer. Luckily my instructor is also on te same lines, but wants more forward , which I feel he is not ready for. Very different way of training though, leg without hand, not leg into hand t least at the moment. But it so suits this horse!
PasoBaby_CarolU

Alayna (Calatar) is here and played with Bruiser and Buddy yesterday.   Both are LBE, but Buddy is RBE with people.   The release from pressure is exactly what Buddy needs to progress.   It is less important to Bruiser, who hasn't a concern in the world.   He needs a reward.   She is talking about doing clicker training with him so he has a reward.    I am more verbal and demonstrative with him and that has been his reward, well that and cookies.  

I have an RBE here who is terrified of the clicker when I tried it years ago.  A very noise sensitive horse.   So it is not a good tool with him, where a "Good boy" is an excellent reward.  

I'm not sure that it HAS TO BE a clicker, but it has to consistent, instant, and used appropriately.
Julie

anything which signifies something is correct is good if you are consistant. i am moving from a clicker to a wither scratch. Clicker is great for new ideas with a food motivated horse though!
Niek

Good to hear you like the dvd`s julie  altough its no suprise .
Julie

come on then Niek - where next!
Niek

dunno ? :9 i love the concepts of dressage in the fourth dimension it takes the borders out of dressage.

Ive got 2 private lessons comming up with Mikey (he`s in the PK instructor programn)  in november so im curious to hear where to go next  what improvements are made since may.

My main project is keeping my horse his tension out of it and only add in the tension i need for a certain manouvre its rather challenging though. Considering my last project was to eliminate his tension :9
Peeperpuppy

((this is a cut & paste from another thread because, like a nimrod, I posted my question in the wrong thread   ))

I meant to ask this question here... sorry for the double post...


I have a separate question that I want to ask here to those who've maybe seen some of the dvd's I'm going to ask about.  I've got a lady who owes me some money but she's fallen short.  She'd love to use her credit card but that just won't work for me.  I'm thinking about having her buy some dvd's for me... win-win for both of us.  I found a 4-dvd set by Philippe Karl.  Has anyone viewed these & if so, did you like them?  Dislike them?  I was bounding back & forth between Karen Rohlf & Philippe Karl.  Can't decide.  Any input would be appreciated... or if you have OTHER suggestions.  This started out as building my Christmas list for family... & then this came up & I thought, why not?

Help please...
oldmac_donald

*stalks Peeper*

It's ok. Some days I shouldn't be allowed out of bed!

"'Scuz me, miss, but brain-drained university students aren't allowed sharp implements. Or car keys. Or access to the internet..."

So, for those who missed my brilliant reply on the wrong thread...

Peeper, I have all four PK dvds and they are wonderful. So is Karen Rohlf. Tough choice!

I prefer books, I find I get more details out of them - if you are a book fan, I recommend Sylvia Loch's "Dressage in Lightness", Mike Schaffer's "Right from the Start", and Anja Beran's "Classical Schooling..."
Niek

I vote Phillipe Karl  
Julie

Me too as its very very clear.

I hope to go audit some clinics - but can't afford to go to all of them. The choice is

Charles De Kunffy
Herwig Radnetter
Arthur Kottas

Which one should I go to?

Dr Gerd Heuschmann also had a clinic but it sold out immediately
Niek

Difficult. I think i´d be going to  De Kunffy hes more connected the FEI and i would be verry interrested to hear the stuff he has to say on dressage it also helps i find Alois Podhjasky`s book somewhat dissapointing so riders of the spanish riding school in Vienna wouldnt be my first choise

Came across a verry nice article by Dominique Barbier :


Quote:

Dominique Barbier – Reflections on French Classical Dressage
By Jean Llewellyn

“A horse is the mirror of your soul, of who you really are. It is your reflection that you see through his eyes.”

The partnership between a horse and rider that truly encompasses precision, harmony, rhythm, lightness and relaxation – yet is totally unencumbered by invasive control or pronounced aids - is an “ethereal” experience. For Dominique Barbier, an extraordinary teacher, trainer and clinician in French classical dressage, “using the power of the mind is the most important aid,” as his methodology epitomizes the art of communication and visualization. “Partnership”, he believes, is essential for forging a strong relationship, “based upon absolute trust, cooperation, and willingness” – that together cement the bonds of mutual respect – regardless of a horse’s background or abilities. “You cannot develop a rigid plan where you, as the rider or trainer, determine the specifics for each training session in advance, because you will likely be disappointed. Horses are not machines to be manipulated at will, but living beings that will respond to us and communicate their desires if we open our eyes and ears and allow them to.”

Born in France in 1950, Dominique Barbier attended a Jesuit school in Poitiers and, at the age of 15, traveled to Crabbett Park Equestrian Centre in West Sussex, England where he certified as a British Horse Society Assistant Instructor (BHSAI). “I was 15 years old and my teacher put me at the back of the class on a bad horse thinking ‘He won’t understand much because he doesn’t speak English.’ But at the end of the course the administrator spoke to my father in English – which I translated into French – asking if I could return to continue with the professional course…. And I completed it in almost half the time!”

… Listen to the birds!

In 1972, Barbier attended the renowned Talland School of Equitation in Cirencester, Gloucestershire, under the instruction of Mrs. Molly Siveright, FBHS, DBHS. “At the time, I was completely misdirected in my goals. I wanted to be a good rider technically so I developed a series of tricks in order to be able to ride and train horses better and more quickly – or so I thought! It was a disaster. I rode one horse, Golden Caledon, for two weeks and she made me realize how useless my physical-trick approach really was.” Witnessing Barbier’s frustration, Siveright told him to simply “Walk around the field and listen to the birds!”

Although he thought the suggestion “laughable”, it was a defining moment in Barbier’s life. “As soon as your mind relaxes, your body relaxes; the horse senses the mood through your body and reacts to it. It can go in either direction; just as a horse reacts to stress, he reacts to relaxation. That experience proved to be an important revelation in clarifying my attitude towards horses as well as towards life in general. I realized that riding was not a series of tricks, but a relationship with the horse based on friendship, trust and mutual respect.” As Siveright told him, when you want a horse to do something, “You only have to ask – politely!”

The visualization technique

Together, Barbier and Golden Caledon progressed effortlessly to more advanced movements, and the mare’s level of anticipation kicked in, typically indicating the point at which the training has become too repetitious. “I only had to think ‘flying change’ and she did it. I was amazed!” But, while many riders would simply change their routine to avoid the issue of habituation, Barbier began to wonder whether he was thinking too loudly! Was there another layer to the art of mental communication? “I decided that I had to develop another way of thinking. That was when I started to develop the ability to create two minds, one that was readily available to the horse that he could read, and another, far removed. The first would say, ‘I am going to do nothing,’ while the second would whisper ‘I am going to do a flying change over there by the big bush.” This technique, combined with finely tuned sensitivity, convinced Barbier that ‘visualization’ had replaced ‘anticipation’.

For the next eight years, Barbier sharpened his riding skills at a number of highly regarded facilities throughout Europe, pursuing various disciplines, including showjumping, three-day eventing, dressage and steeplechasing. He then based himself in Portugal for two years studying with the legendary Mestre Nuno Oliveira where his riding skills were enhanced by perfecting his “mental and physical attitude.” This experience was another defining moment that inspired Dominique’s belief in keeping a horse “light and happy,” known as “la belle légerèté à la Française.” A strong advocate of the ancient traditions of French classical dressage, Barbier began training stallions up to “high school” level, including teaching the Lusitano stallion, Dom Giovanni, to canter on the spot and backwards!!!!

Dom Giovanni was a Cinderella story par excellence! At the age of four he was facing enthanasia because he was exhibiting aggressive behaviour and had already crippled a groom. In Barbier’s hands, however, and with the help of Oliveira, Dom Giovanni became his “most brilliant horse as far as his mental ability and his general nature go. But he required an enormous amount of constant love, understanding and patience.” The stallion also reinforced Barbier’s firm belief in mental communication. “One day I was helping my assistant perform passage on my other stallion, Dom Pasquale. I was very intensely involved with her work, visualizing passage while sitting on Giovanni, who was on a loose rein. Suddenly he began to passage for me. I was amazed, since I knew that this horse normally needed a considerable readjustment in his balance and position before attempting this movement. Technically speaking, what he was doing was impossible, but he was doing it nevertheless! […] It was the best illustration of visualization possible. Physically, I wasn’t doing anything. If you want it badly enough, the horse does it.”

… No room for anger!

Barbier recalls entering a new era of self-education when he first arrived in the United States in the mid 1970s to work as a clinician. “I was given very little time with an individual horse, so I had to establish communication with him very quickly. Most problems I came across were with spoiled or abused horses. […] For instance, one horse might associate some movement or position with discomfort. He might have mental flashbacks to a situation that had been frightening or demeaning to him. It is very difficult for a horse to overcome fear. […] His brain is saying ‘You are in big trouble, protect yourself.’ In order to establish myself quickly and successfully in a working communication with these horses, my own mental attitude proved crucial. An open, analytical, unconditionally accepting attitude is necessary, with no room for anger or a sense of superiority.”

Continuing, Barbier said, "I found that I could create an instant relationship and communicate with the horse if I could get rid of all the negative, preconceived ideas.” He illuminated this concept by explaining


Source : http://horsesforlife.com/BarbierReflections
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