The definitive on abscesses

samfern · The definitive on abscesses

Looks like my mare Doris has a RF abscess, she is barefoot and trimmed by a KC trimmer and has been since Feb 09. When she was shod I had recurrent abscess/white line nightmares but all this stopped when I moved to dryer ground/soil and went barefoot. She has transitioned easily and is now scoring 6 on the useability scale.

This is her first abscess since being barefoot and upon the advice of trimmer I am leaving nature to take its course, she is turned out but stands in for 3 hours each morning to allow feet time to dry, she is turned out tonight, I have left the foot au naturel, i.e. no boots, poultices, I have not given her bute or anything.

I am not very good at watching her in pain and expect to spend this period in various degrees of sufferance, what can I do to speed this up? How long is it likely to take? This is new territory as I previously got the vet to unearth them and poulticed/soaked and then plugged with Keratex putty (don't worry I am well aware this unearths new traumas so will be avoiding it this time), Help please...

jenlm

Samfern,
I am confused. DO you want to treat the abcess or let nature take it's course? I am not sure you can have it both ways? Not trying to be inflammatory, just wondering.

samfern

I said I have previously asked the vet to dig them out as she was shod, she is now barefoot so want to let nature take its course and allow it to erupt itself.

Sorry if this was not clear, I appreciate I cannot have it both ways!

whisperingwindfarms

Wow - no icthammol or anything? I always pack icthammol in and wrap them to keep them clean and dry. Works like a charm.

appellativo

I think you can still treat it, without digging it out??? But all I know is what I watched on a show once, where they did poultices with animalintex (and did not dig it out)

samfern

Sorry whats Icthammol? In UK so this may differ

Why the wow? I am following advice of barefoot trimmer, backed up by vet? Is what I am doing considered negligent in the US? I shall call the vet first thing and get this sorted, there seem to be a 100 ways of treating abscesses naturally and otherwise so perhaps posting for advice was a bad idea

carefreegirl

I would say you could still soak, and possibly give some bute for a little pain relief, and ask your vet if he thinks antibiotics should be given

When my boy had one almost a year ago now, My vet advised keeping him in a stall the majority of the time so that when it erupted it would help to keep it clean and so the duct tape boot would stay on. I did take him on daily walks/trots, and when he offered; canters, but if he offered a canter I knew I was giving to much bute and would back off that a little- I really felt the movement helped it erupt quickly-and the bute helped him move more comfortably.

He advised daily soaking for half an hour in Epsom salts, and 1 gram of bute daily to help with pain/inflammation, and to reduce the amount of bute if he started getting too comfortable, still wanted him to feel something to not overuse it. He also gave me antibiotics to start him on,

And then when it did erupt he said to wrap it with an antibiotic ointment he gave me and wrap it with some gauze, vet wrap and duct tape, he also said to continue the antibiotics, the wrapping, and the soakings daily for 10 days after eruption.

I also soaked him in apple cider vinegar so his total soaking time was about 45 min, with it cut in half between the Epsom salts and the vinegar.

it took about 2 to 3 days for it to rupture after it was discovered with this regime, and though I only gave the antibiotics for the 10 days after, I continued the soaking and wrapping as the vet advise for about 5 more days as he still was uncomfortable without having bute as help, and if he still wasn't good after those 5 days we would try to do a culture to see if we needed to try more antibiotics. At the end of the 5 days of additional soaking and wrapping he was rearing to go, put him right back into the pasture and he hasn't had an abscess since, knock on wood.

I do have to let you know that Bently seems to be a slow to heal abscess horse though as he has had other abscesses (not in his feet) but on a kick injury that were very hard to resolve, so my vet got right on top of this abscess, but there was no digging or invasive procedures used.

Good Luck

Pyrgirl

I think soaking would still allow "nature to take its course" but could help speed up the process a little. I used epsom salts to soak, but you can use other things. It took my horse nearly 2 weeks to get it to erupt. It was the most miserable time of my life watching him limp around on 3 feet. He would literally graze in a circle around his three feet and then limp/hop over 4 feet and start another circle. There was no way to dig it out since it was very deep. It finally busted out the coronary band. You have my sympathy.

whisperingwindfarms

samfern

Thanks all, I will soak in Epsom salts to try and expediate process, was warned against bute because it can slow things down, she is moving around on soft ground and is the alpha so won't be forced to move faster than she can. I will reassess in the morning, I am keen to try and be patient and let nature take it's course rather than panic and dig out which is my usual reaction.

Will keep you posted, thanks again

jenlm

Samfern - please don't take me the wrong way, I just always have a hard time sorting out what the definitine of "natural" is. To me truely natural would be do nothing - just like a wild horse in nature - in which the horse would cripple around until what time as the abcess blew out a hole in the coronary band causing a lesion that takes a year to grow out (or got eaten by whatever predator was hungry and could run faster that it on 3 legs). So anything we do to help them by definition is not "nature". I prefer to open my abcesses at the white line if they are mural abcesses or subsolar abcesses at the sole, allow them to drain wrapped in a clean bandage, and once the area is cornified they go back to what ever it was they did before they got the abcess. I prefer my abcesses to be opened this way so there is not a hoof wall defect that leads to weakness in the wall for the next year. Barefoot or not, I just can't stand to see a horse cripple around for as long as it takes to have an abcess rupture at the coronet and hate to think of all the damaged laminae from the tract up the hoof wall. Just my take.

samfern

Which has always been my take, the vet will be out first thing to dig out, I will then poultice etc. I am not comfortable with watching her like that, she has only been like it today and the vet could not make it this afternoon so I took advice from trimmer who said leave alone to work out itself, I know barefoot people do this so did not think it too dreadful, however I am now worried sick and will get the emergency vet in the morning.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I would TRY to dig it out. It really depends where it is. If deep inside the foot you won't dig it out and can only get it to come out with poultices. There are many recipes for poultices if you Google them. I've used Epson salts in disposable diapers with good success.

Bute is up to you. Besides helping with pain it is an antinflammatory and aids in healing. It is definitely indicated if the horse is in pain, and only contraindicated for long term use. Once the abscess comes to a head and drains I pack them with gauze soaked in betadine solution and keep it wrapped, clean and dry (boots are nice).

I'm not sure that reoccurring abscesses are a time to let Nature handle it. Nature isn't dong a very successful job of it. I think I'd put the horse on biotin supplements and make sure it has a combination of hard and soft places to stand that are DRY. Some horses are just born with softer hooves and are more prone to abscesses. Use Nature's remedy for that...which is dry ground.

Good luck.

samfern

She's not had recurrent abscesses, she had a series last year when shod in the same place, the vet kept digging deeper and deeper, we would poultice and plug hole, shoe would go back on and the cycle never ended. Eventually I went barefoot and used cleantrax and we have not had a problem until now. The weather in the UK for the last 5 days has been heavy rain and gales.

She is fed seaweed, 100% forage diet, biotin and specialist feed balancers for feet, we have a podiatrist and her trim is looking very good. I am not a "nature take its course person" and call the vet if she looks at me in the wrong way so please nobody think I am doing this for laziness or saving money because neither feature with her I can assure you. She stands in for a few hours each day to allow feet to dry and I will stable at night if the ground gets wet, we are on sand so it is not very muddy or wet and drains quickly.

My first reaction was to call the vet this afternoon but could not make it until tomorrow am, the podiatrist was my second point of contact and she said movement was best, I know this is advised in some quarters so did this, I now wish I hadn't!! Rest assured the vet will be called first thing to dig it out and I will have a sleepless night in the interim!

bit

I'm a little conflicted about the vet digging them out. I was fortunate with Bunny, and they were all the result of a sole bruise. Lou, my paint mare had a piece of gravel go in the bottom and come out the coronary band. Now, it kind of looks like a little horn, grows out of the coronary band, and it's made of the same stuff as her hoof. THAT I wish had been attended to in time by a vet. The previous owner soaked her and didn't realize there was something in there. We all are out there just doing our best, and you are too. Probably a good idea to find out what made the abscess, bruise or object going into the foot. Bit stepped on a nail a few years back, and that was an immediate abscess. New nail, only went in 1/4 inch, but took two weeks to heal. Lots of soaking, betadine washes, and antibiotics. Relax, and see what the vet says. She'll be fine, you'll do what you need to do, and learn a lot. Let us know, ok? We like pictures!

samfern

I am thoroughly confused! From looking at forum comments before letting them pop out naturally when barefoot seemed to be the chosen option, digging them out seemed to be the wrong thing!

I am based in the Surrey Hills on a 45 acre farm, the tracks between the fields are stoney and she has probably caught a stone after having her feet softened from the copious amounts of rain over the past few days, she wears old macs when ridden out so its probably the track from the field.

One of those things annoyingly. Like most things with horses there are a million ways of doing things, its finding the right one!

carefreegirl

I personally think that it is better to invade the horses foot as little as possible. my horse only took a couple of months to grow out the abscess area, not a whole year, and he was perfectly comfortable on it the whole time it was growing out, and there has been no long term ill effects to his growth or to his coronary band.

The vet did x-ray his foot to make sure there was no broken bones/foreign objects, but seeing as there wasn't he prescribed what I described in my previous post, which to me is a proactive non invasive way to deal with an abscess. In other words letting it happen 'naturally' but speeding the process along, and helping the horse with the pain.

to me it seems silly to make a hole on purpose in an area such as a foot that is so exposed to so much bacteria, if you could keep it perfectly clean, maybe, but to me I seems not worth it, as the hole/holes searching around for the abscess can create more abscess in an of themselves, and the holes themselves have to grow out too, which weakens the hoof about as much as a naturally rupturing abscess would. But to each their own.

I am glad of the course of action my vet and I decided on, and it worked out well for us

I really do think movement is great for an abscess if you are sure it is not caused by a foreign object/broken bone, and providing some pain killers (ie bute) to encourage the horse to move helps the healing process. Mustangs when they get abscess still move the same amount of distance as the rest of the herd, because they have an instinct to stay with the herd, they don't want to stay behind--our horses don't have that encouragement because they are often in smaller areas where the 'herd' never travels in such a way to cause them concern to keep up, and they don't have to travel for food or water.

Good Luck though in whatever you decide

PasoBaby_CarolU

I have one horse who has soft feet and gets abscesses quite easily, usually from a stone bruise, but in the spring he can get stone bruises from the uneven frozen ground.

To me, digging out an abscess does two things. It speeds up the draining and therefore the healing. But it also makes a large enough hole to thoroughly drain and clean the area. If the abscess is higher in the foot, it does no good to dig the sole. I certainly would STOP digging if nothing is found before you invade healthy hoof! I had an abscesses come out the coronary band instead of the sole. It took me a MONTH to get that abscess to come out. We still had to open the hole after it popped to get it irrigated and disinfected and thoroughly drained.

If the hole isn't large enough, you don't get it thoroughly cleaned out, it will reoccur or take longer to heal. A small hole can also close and not drain properly, so the infection is still there.

BTW - we also get abscesses in our barn cats now and then. Same treatment...open the abscess big so you can irrigate it and it can then drain.

We do have a vet or two on the forum. Maybe one will weigh in.

samfern

Well the vet came at 11am, it was a small abscess on the white line and it has been dug out, soaked in epsom salts and is now poulticed. She has had some Danilon so is much happier.

Will stick to this method I think if it happens again!

jenlm

Samfern,that is great, glad your "pony" is comfy!

appellativo

oh yay! Every situation is different, it really is a judgement call. glad to hear she's feeling better now.

kristie

She looks like she is feeling much better. Wishing her a speedy recovery.

whisperingwindfarms

Sam - What's Danilon? Glad to hear she's doing better!

The last one we had, my farrier just cut a slit in it and let it drain. I wouldn't call what he did "digging it out". I called him last night and asked him about all this since he's pretty much my definitive answer on all things "hoof and leg". He said he has to see the actual abscess to decide what to do for it. Some he leaves alone to pop naturally, some he just cuts a slit in (like mine) and some he "digs out".

How's that for throwing another wrinkle in things?

PasoBaby_CarolU

LOL..yes, so much for a "definitive answer."

Trooper (who is the one who gets abscesses all the time) will frequently have abscesses that the farriers find. Nature pretty much takes the course on these. He isn't lame at all. I just keep the foot clean until it heals.

I'm trying to keep a roll trim on him. He grows really LONG toes and flat feet. I'm hoping by keeping the sides trimmed that the pressure that pulls the walls out and lets the abscesses form will be absent. I'll let you know if this works.

samfern

Danilon is a NSAID similar to bute but it is tastier and apparently less harsh on the stomach, Doris can smell bute at a 100 paces!

I think we have discovered there is no definitive answer, it depends on location, attitude of vet, owner, trimmer, farrier, type of abscess. In the UK vets tend to lance or dig out but I have had instances on the hind feet where there has been no lameness but a gooey mess has appeared out of the coronet, hard to believe they can travel that far without pain yet the small one I watched removed this morning causes agony.

I guess after what happened last year with the constant digging and digging which ultimately caused me more problems I thought maybe there was another way. The biggest issue I have is that Doris has kissing spines and for 9 years I have been managing it through remedial work backed up by constant veterinary monitoring, having her out of work for any longer than absolutely necessary is not an option.

Thanks everyone for your input, I was flapping a bit last night as the vet could not come so went to plan B which left me unsettled as I was not convinced... every day a new lesson!

Newfman

Definition

•S: (n) operation, surgery, surgical operation, surgical procedure, surgical process (a medical procedure involving an incision with instruments; performed to repair damage or arrest disease in a living body)

jenlm

Newfman, can you provide a reference as to which states are trying to relegate hoof care into their vet practice acts? TIA

Newfman

Off the top of my head, Texas is one, you can do a quick google search on practicing veterinary medicine without a liscense and you can probably find a few links. Gotta get ready for work...

I will try to follow up more tomorrow if you are still having trouble finding anything. Dentistry is also something that is getting pushed to Vets only, which sucks because I have a great Dentist, who by the way, extracted my Brabant Mares wolf teeth....with my horses Doctor looking over his shoulder.

bit

So glad you had a good outcome! Yep, sounds like it's a case by case issue, with no definitive answers and lots of opinions. If in doubt, I call the vet out to have a look. It's only 25.00 for a ranch call, and she loves my horses. I did barely scrap Bunny's sole once with my pick, and it opened and puss squirted out a little hole. She was so much more comfortable after that, but then it was a lot of work to keep it cleaned and draining while she healed. I usually soak, and give it some time.
Regarding dental, it WOULD be a shame to limit floating and dental work to vets, because they don't specialize. The guy I used in Ca. was bloody gifted, and pretty famous out that way. Never used drugs, horses fell madly in love with him, and it was almost zen-like for the horses. He was very particular about things being even, balanced, and even went into the evils of horses not eating from ground level as the teeth don't line up correctly and it causes it's own set of problems with tooth wear. We kill this with kindness by feeding them in hay feeders above ground, and they need to eat at ground level. He said the teeth can affect the entire body, back, pole, everything. The guy was amazing, and not a vet. He said to me that it is always better to go with someone that is good with horses and teeth, that specializes because vets usually don't have a clue and just go in and rasp to knock the hooks off. He had my hand in my horses mouth to FEEL what it felt like before, and after. He was amazing.
What got me was, every horse acted the same with him. Complete surrender, do whatever you want, relaxed and some even fell asleep. Wish he was practicing in Kansas. When I win my zillions, I'm flying this guy in.

Newfman

I guess i should point out that, atleast in the U.S. to the best of my knowledge you can cut, shoot and mutilate your"own" animals without a liscense, but you are not allowed to do it to other peoples.

So, it is more a point to be taken by the practicing hoofcare professionals... If you are digging through the hoof without a doctor there with you or standing orders....you have legal issues.

It is still a crap thing to do to your own horse. Especially with no knowledge of sterile surgical proceedures or preparation.

Newfman

Bit,

Yup, same with my horses. If they wanted to move a little or take a few steps, he said ok...let's do this over her then, no big deal. they were just amazingly easy going about all.

karmikacres

Aspirin is a much better choice for abscesses. Bute is an anti inflammatory, it is best to actually allow the abscess to pop, and not hinder the process with an nsaid.

Mike

Newfman

Um.....Aspirin is an nsaid.

karmikacres

Aspirin is a good pain reliever, and has less anti inflammatory action than Bute.

Mike

Newfman

What dose do you use for a horse?
I'm not sure what you mean by has less anti-inflammatory action than bute.

karmikacres

The dosing for Aspirin is on the container. Just passing on what I have been taught. My guess is Bute is a more targeted toward anti-inflammatory.
Mike

PasoBaby_CarolU

I don't know Newfman..when I give shots, banamine, bute, antibiotics, or aspirin it is without a license too. I buy and give drugs here on a daily basis. When my farrier digs out an abscess it is without a veterinarian license.

As to your other question, I've SEEN abscesses below the surface of the sole. I've had them show up during regular trims.

I am unaware of any statistics on sole vs. coronary band abscesses. Around here it's been one in the coronary band and probably 30 in the sole. I've seen too many horses have instant relief when the abscess is found and drained to not believe it as good procedure.

BTW - my vet told me of a horse where they didn't find the abscess and the infection got into the pedal bone where it could not be treated, even with antibiotics and was fatal. He did a necropsy on the horse after it was put down and found the infection inside the bone. It had been a puzzling case for weeks for him and the owner. THAT story is enough to convince me to aggressively treat abscesses.

----aspirin comes in a powder for horses. I have no idea which is the stronger antinflamatory or which is harder/easier on the stomach. Logic would tell me bute is the stronger of the two drugs.

Newfman

That's fine, just curious. I know on the Veterinary board for horses, that I have never seen the recommendation for aspirin (atleast for use as an anti-inflammatory). Could be because it requires so much that the use of modern NSAIDS are preferred. Of course, it takes a bit of Bute as well. Then again, it is also available injectable. That can be a plus. And there is also Banamine which we used for one of our Belgians when she had her vaccine reaction. It is very possible that a horse (or any other animal) will experience a loss of appetite or very selective appetite when in moderate to severe pain. This too can make oral meds difficult to utilize.

Here are some things for readers to mull over.

For instance,

...according to Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook 5th edition, (kind of like the PDR for Vets.)

Horse Dose for Aspirin:

Mature Horses: two to four 240gr boluses PO

So, I ran a little math out of curiosity...

1 grain = 64.79891mg (65 mg for simplicity)
1 kg = 2.2lbs
1000lb horse =454kg

2 to 4 …240 grain boluses PO

2 x 240 = 480 grains x 65 (mg) = 31,200mg up to 62,400 (or 62.4 to 124.8 extra strength Bayer 500mg tablets)

Bolus doses available in 240gr and 480gr.

The Tub of aspirin Equi-spirin 700 has 28 doses. 700g divided by 28 = 25 gm conv to mg is 25,000mg

So that would be a lite analgesic dose. Of course there are always a variety of recommended dosages for various drugs.

Granted, I haven't crunched the numbers on the paste Aspirin. I do have to wonder about how it feels in the stomach though. Non buffered aspirin on an empty stomach, for me, is rather uncomfortable. Horses probably wouldn't complain to much though...

Regardless, that is an enormous amount of aspirin to get into a horse. I just think (just my opinion here) that the average person would have an easier time with Bute which is the recommended NSAID (generally across the board amongst board certified Vets) and have a better chance that the horse is truly going to receive the desired dose if you are using the powdered aspirin.

Most of all, I think it is important that people atleast contact their Vet and follow their recommendations for using various drugs. Your Vet may be keeping in mind that another drug or proceedure may be necessary in the near future if the desired results are not obtained. If they recomend Bute and you give aspirin, maybe they can no longer take the other course of action due to, say drug interactions, or platelette counts or whatever. For some reason, that I haven't uncovered yet, Aspirin for horses has generally fallen out of favor for much more modern analgesics.

As people read this thread, it is just a point they should consider before choosing their course of action.

Mike, I have no doubt you are doing great things for horses, and that, over-all, is the most important thing.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Denise, that is good information on the Aspirin. Thank you. I've never done the math, but you are right, that is a lot of aspirin. Probably why Bute is usually the recommended NSAID. I wonder if Aspirin would be preferred when you need to increase the blood flow, since it has a thinning action.

I got thinking about the vet license law. I am pretty sure it exists in Florida too...have many friends there and I remember them talking about it.

I don't think such a law would 'fly' in the west. Too many family farms and large cattlemen and they are well represented in State government. When you have huge herds and flocks out on the open range and elsewhere, you can't wait for the vet and can't afford that many farm calls or the distance. I sincerely doubt those laws would even get heard here.

Newfman

Newfman

It is Dennis by the way, no worries, I get that a lot.

I am all for having to have a liscense to perform trimming, farriery, dentals etc. Mostly because if you are a crap knucklehead horse abusing, mutilating bozo, they can yank your liscense and you are done (or going to jail). Right now, it is a free- for- all. that is why some people in high places are pushing for legislation.

Here is the down side. The people that would set the standards for appropriate trimming...may choose a method that some of us don't agree with. For example (and it wouldn't happen but it makes a point) lets say that the lescensing comission and whatever oversight there is, requires the standard of practice is the Strasser trim. Of course, many of us would just find something else to do with our lives, but who is to say what is correct, appropriate, and legal under the guidelines?

It gets into a lot of gray area. So, that may be why they want to just push it onto Vets. Fortunately, the Vets are trying to push it back. That's another point though. The Vets, typically, jump right to shoes. There goes everything that Barefooters have worked so hard for.

So yes to accountability, and no to control. That's my view.

When I was an liscensed EMT-1 in Los Angeles (lonnngg ago) I was with a Private Ambulance company (GoodHew) and we had all of the LA County 911 contracts, as well as Santa Monica Fire, Pasadena, Torrance, Long Beach, and I can't remember the rest. Pluss we handled our own incoming Private Ambulance calls, and those could get a bit ....interesting. Many times we were either the first on scene or the only ones on scene. If you had a heart attack victim with a nitro bottle in his hand with his name on it and instructions for use, I could not give him one, nor could I tell him to take one. I could lead him though...So, what did your doctor tell you to do when you feel like this? Believe me, you could end up going in circles for awhile. One time the old guy seemed a bit altered (mental status) and it was not getting through his head that he needed to take his nitro. Even when he told me his doctor would want him too. He would always finish with "So should i take it?" UGH! finally I was like YES, just take your damned Nitro before you croak! The laws can be very frustrating. So, had he still croaked and the nitro was determined to be the issue....guys who just played Doctor as an EMT????

Even if you are helping a friends horse, if things go south, you would be surprised how soluble a friendship can be. It melts away pretty quickly.

bit

Carol, you were thinking it was best to open the hoof early on, rather than let it go and have it travel up to places like the pedal bone, correct? The infections wouldn't have gone as far if the hoof had been opened?
Bunny was my chronic abscess horse, and I do feel relieved that she is with another owner this winter. I was constantly soaking one foot, or another. I might see a bruise once or twice a winter on Bit, on her hoof, but she is never sore, and I always had her checked.
This is a case by case thing, I think. When in doubt, call the vet? Awareness and educating yourself seems to be the call. Know that if you open a friends horses foot to drain an abscess, you could face a law suit if things go south. Something especially important for farriers and trimmers, I would expect.
Dennis, I have a question. I gave my ottb to a good friend up in Colorado. He was always sound here, but my pastures are grass, so footing is pretty comfy. He moved up to some pretty hard ground. They found he had false soles, has been terribly sore, to the point of cribbing. Dropped weight, choking, and not doing well. She had him scoped, everything looked good. He's been barefoot for a while, raced for 6 years, and pretty sound for a ottb. She took him to the vet to try and help him with his sore feet. She has tried everything. The vet said that he had very thin soles, and some horses just don't take to barefoot. Are there horses that cannot go barefoot due to thin soles and hard ground?

Newfman

Well Bit, I guess that is the question of the ages. A lot of things play a part. Hard ground should be no problem for a horse with decent feet. Hard ground with loose rocks could certainly be another issue entirely.

There is something that caught my eye in your post. False soles tend to be a layer, sometimes rather thick, over-lying live sole. It is possible that a trimmer/farrier thinking that this ottb that had good feet (a presumed impossibility in many circles) had his soles pared down and now has weak thin OTTB feet the way that people like to create. The other thing is, what does the horse do, when he isn't being put to work?

If your horse isn't doing things work wise, to almost the equivalent of a wild horse, he isn't going to have wild horse feet. Yes? If he is normally as active as a grape hanging out by the back porch waiting for a twinkie...he isn't going to perform well. On the other hand, if he is being ridden in training for an upcoming endurance event and being "transitioned" to it gradually (boot time and barefoot time) then I think he would stand a good chance of being sound on rough terrain. These endurance barefooters tend to be pretty sharp about training, feed, balanced diet, balanced horses and balanced riders. The successful ones anyways.

This horse is now out of your control, and you will not get all the information, because some of it is left up to interpretation. My barefoot trim and his barefoot trim may be completely different. That can have a profound affect.

I think it is a lot less, up to the horse, and mostly up to us. I'm not a big believer in the "we bred the foot off the thoroughbred B.S. because every horse that these people have pointed to as an example, had crap trims and hoof care. So, until I see these horses with proper hoof care, diets and excercise on the ground that they are expected to perform on....I will believe in the horse.

Gravel crunching...that is a big reach. Gravel roads are not and never were part of the horses natural environment. When free, they have a choice to go through the rocky stuff or a path around it. They also decide where to put their feet. When we ride, they tend to have to figure out where to put their feet within the constraints set forth by us. I want you to walk this path and not move off to the grass, so therefore, you have to step on loose one inch tall rocks with your half inch of concavity. Or your zero inches of concavity and your quarter inch thick horses shoe. The amount of force applied by the point of a rock being stepped on with a bare sole is tremendous. You can hurt pretty much any domestic horse at one time or another.

I would really like to see proper photos of the feet, present day, to say for sure if i feel the trim is out of whack, and i would have to know what the horse does, and when, how much and where. Nutrition issues etc. Otherwise, as you just spent way too much time reading...I am just guessing.

It probably didn't answer your question did it.....
Soreness leading to cribbing...is that like, "Here Lone ranger, bite on this stick while i pull the bullet out,cause this is going to hurt!"? If the horse is confined to an area that he is just hanging out with nothing to do but cribb...then his feet aren't very busy are they? And there are boots for those sore days. If the soles are thin, I am willing to bet they are a bit flat as well. I think there may be flaws in the program.

Well, I gotta get up in a little while and feed the herd

Better catch a few winks. Been a long day.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Newfman

How do you go "looking for it" and not dig through "Healthy hoof wall"? Even with a subsolar abcess, it is generally covered by healthy hoof wall, that is, until you dig a hole through it.

samfern

I too believe digging them out is the only option, my vet filled me with horror stories the other day when I dared mention what my trimmer said (my vet is natural to a point!). I have seen this advice of leave them alone and moving on a number of abscess posts on the Parelli forum, I appreciate some can and do burst without further issue but I believe the risk is too great personally...

On a good note with Doris the poultice was clean both days and I have plugged the hole after soaking today with Keratex putty, she will have a couple more days off as I fly to Portugal for 2 days in 3 hours (leaving her in the care of a friend) and hopefully that's the end of it... fingers crossed!

Newfman

I am fascinated that a Veterinarian would have you "plug" an abscess drain.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Dennis....when you take off the flaky sole and get to healthy sole IF you can see the abscess there...and I have, many times, I open it up. If there is nothing to see, then I'd poultice. I totally disagree with you about poultices. They work and work well.

I also used to be an EMT. I carry with me trail riding both Benadryl capsules and Epi-Pens. If I had to use either to save someone's life, I would. The Good Samaritan law goes both ways. If you CAN do something to save and don't, you can be sued for that too.

As for the abscess in the pedal bone, it started inside the hoof. The infection then spread into the pedal bone. This is why if I can't get an abscess out I'd start a horse on antibiotics too.

BTW - I agree about not plugging a drain hole with Karatex. I use betadine soaked gauze. It still allows drainage.

samfern

There is no infection as 4 poultices showed, it was a Tiny foreign body, it's been removed, the horse is fine, what do you suggest I do with the hole newfman?! I am taking vets advice.

samfern

I will get the keratex removed in the morning and replace as you suggest carol if that's better...

PasoBaby_CarolU

Hmm...that depends on what the hole looks like. If it's a shallow wide hole I'd probably use Keratex to protect it while it heals. If it is deep and narrow, I'd not only use gauze, I'd use a needle and iodine to irrigate it daily so I didn't tetanus in it.

Glad there is no infection. THAT makes healing a LOT faster.

Newfman

samfern

I wasn't disagreeing with it...

Newfman

I wasn't implying that you were, just that (as I have done more than i can count) found myself questioning Veterinary advice, only to find that, when I asked, the explanation took in to account, more than I had.

That being said, I have seen a lot of Vet advice that I have found to be, if nothing else, counter-intuitive. Even apalling. That is where the second opinion comes in handy. One can also keep searching until you find someone that actually agrees with you. That is when you know you were right!

Anyhow,

So, out of curiosity, what was the aftercare advice? Care to share?

Newfman

samfern

I am no novice when it comes to questioning the advice of vets, farriers, saddlers, dentists and have been through many to get to those I trust... Barefoot care is new to me and I am digging around for more info.

The pain was caused by a small foreign body/thorn and the vet dug a deep shallow hole, there was a very small localized infection that came out with it, the vet said to soak with Epsom salts twice daily, poultice once or twice to be sure (I did 4 and wrapped for 48 hours) he then said ideally he would plug with cotton wall and iodine but because she must remain turned out for her kissing spines I said it would have to be waterproof and he did not have a problem with keratex...

Newfman

Sounds like good advice to me. I know from personal experience that Epsome salt soaks for these types of surgical sites is excellent. A hint of initial minor sting, then ohhh so soothing. It allows the wound to granulate from the inside out and gets things pretty darn clean.

I believe the reason he was ok with the Keratex is because it was not, in fact, an abscess (yet). So their wasn't a real issue of keeping it drained. I think you would have found that he would have been less enthusiastic about it if it had been an abscess that had been drained. That is a by-product of 4 plus years of Vet school.

Keep in mind, the soaking will tend to soften the feet a bit, so watch for rock (and thorns).

I am glad things are working out and it wasn't as bad as you thought. Thank you for posting the follow-up care.

D.

samfern

Yes sure if it had been a full on abscess I would have poulticed/soaked for as long as it took and kept the foot wrapped and booted for longer.

I just hope the forecast wet winter does not make this a recurring theme! Her feet are good and she transitioned easily so I hope not.

Thanks for your help

Leah

When I have dealt with a hole in the sole, I have just shoved some ichthammol up in it.

It keeps it draining and blocks the hole enough that gunk can't get back in.

Rinse and repeat daily.

You can also take a little piece of cotton and plug over the icky-thol to be really safe.

Pull cotton plug daily, etc.

samfern

I don't think we have that here... Stockholm tar is the closest

whisperingwindfarms

Newfman

Pass on the stockholm tar. You can also mix Iodine and sugar together to make a slurry, apply it to the cotton ball and pack lightly. Tape a diaper over the foot with duct tape or put a boot and pad on. Like Leah said, change it daily, twice is ok as well.

Newfman

Sorry erin, didn't know there was, yet, another page.

So, diaper credit in Whisperin's corner

Newfman

LOL, sad to say, but I think my gelding....would have really liked the pink.

samfern

Sugadine i can do...

whisperingwindfarms

PasoBaby_CarolU

samfern

Update on Doris

I have been soaking in Epsom salts twice a day and plugging with cotton wool/iodine and while there has been improvement she still seemed to be swinging her leg out slightly to favour the inside of the hoof on the RF.

The vet visited again this morning and the hoof testers showed very minimal reaction to the affected area but there was a significant reaction around the seat of corn area which led him to suspect bruising between the sole and third phalanx, I am doing a course of Danilon (NSAID) for 5 days and see where that takes us.

He also dug a bit further on the original hole and drew blood to rule out deeper infection there but there was none.

Slight complications as due to her kissing spines she needs to maintain exaggerated top line so work now starts in earnest with physio, stretching etc in absence of actual work. In 9 years since diagnosis she has never had more than 5 days off due to other injury so plan B commences!

Doris is the one on my left...

PasoBaby_CarolU

What a beautiful yard for your horses!

Sounds like you are dealing very well with a chronic problem. Keep us updated.

samfern

Thanks Carol we are lucky, we have 6000 acres of common and hills above us which in the South East of England is not to be sneezed at, we can be in central london by train (less than a mile away) in 45 minutes