Time to sort these imbalances out...

Gallop On · Time to sort these imbalances out...

A bit of background info: My mare, May (RBE/LBI. When she's unconfident, she's extroverted, but when she's confident, she's introverted. And she loves cookies, very, very much

) has some major imbalance issues. I think some of them are related to physical things she's learned over the years, and some of them are linked to emotions. Anyway, I'm pretty sick and tired of how she moves, so I'd like some advice on how to get her to have a nice, quality way of going!

Here's the general overview of her movement:

~ Walk: Fine, a little choppy when she's nervous, but I can get her walking with her neck arched and her body pushing herself along. Here's a ref pic, although I can get her more uphill than this. Also, please ignore my failure of asking her to turn properly

~ Trot: Really icky. This is typically how she goes, and it's worse when she's nervous:

Though when she's calmed down, I can get her to lower her head a bit, like this. Although her nose isn't tucked in and she's not as collected as I'd like her to be.

~ Canter: Complete mess....I think I finally got a sane canter just a few weeks ago and she STILL went around with her head up in the air.

For the record, here are some examples of what I am going for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCXWydjClvE&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh7Twe2MnVY&feature=related

Other issues she has is the Circling Game (she either has her head sticking up, or low when I ask her to walk or jog, but her nose is always poking out. Also her ribcage points away from me. Can't tell if this is a physical or emotional thing, we have a good relationship but in the Circling Game, she ALWAYS sticks her nose to the outside, even when she's paying attention to me and left brain.) and cantering, both in the saddle and on the ground (she used to be a carriage horse, so she was specifically trained not to canter. Even though she knows how to now, and picks it up without going into a million strides of a death trot, she still doesn't go RIGHT into it. Practice makes perfect but any tips on how to get her to pick it up easier would be great.)

Also, a big factor is her RBE-ness. I'm pretty sure she's linked extroverted movement (basically....anything faster than a jog) to going RBE. If I ask her to go into a working trot, she freaks out. It's very subtle, but she does tense up, braces her neck, etc. Asking for a canter makes her leap into it and her topline because very flat. She'll also toss her head. It's gotten a LOT better, lots of circles and repetitive patterns helps her calm down, as well as half halts. But any tips on how to teach your RBE that moving fast does not equal kicking in the 'must flee, or die!' mode would be great

Also, one last thing that I never thought I'd be considering, gadgets. I have a surcingle and some driving lines, in hopes that I could help her learn that she can move nicely on the ground, and it has helped some. So what about side reins? I wouldn't be using them with the mindset of forcing her head in and down to creature a false collection, just for her to fix her head/neck/nose issues (when she is left brain, like I said, not going to force her head in and down while I chase her around and then work on creating a 'frame')

Sorry for the long post, but I think this is kind of the minimal amount of details for this situation. Tips/advice/stories/videos are very welcome

Chablis

I'm no expert but my RBE is the same way - real stress head and if you hold her back, she goes UP.

She is slowly starting to change her posture as she becomes more relaxed but I realised (thanks to my instructor) that I wasn't asking enough of her/directing all that energy appropriately so she was kind of running on the inside, or going up and never losing all the tension hence she resembled a kangaroo running around instead of a horse.

Now, I know when doing figure of eights, for example, I have to keep going until she flows when doing them and not when she offers cutting moves while changing directions.

Obvious to experienced people but wasn't to me as that was what I was previously taught (by other instructors).

As soon as this happened, she starts to engage her HQ's, use her back, lower her head, and blow out/chew. I find it interesting that Karen Rohlf does something similar in one of her dvds.

Another thing is lots of circles rather than straight lines so that she can move her feet without you feeling the need to hold her because that results in her bracing (from what I can see from the pictures - please correct me if I'm wrong).

The circles also help me relax (because I'm not letting an ex-racehorse bolt) and as it helps me, it also relaxes my mare so she calms/slows down.

While circling her, on the ground, I ask her put in more effort (so that she stops tuning out, stargazing, looking to the outside, pushing her ribs inside, etc), and then I wait. Interestingly, when I do this, she once again engages her HQs, lifts her back, bends to the inside (instead of the outside), reaches forward, down and out, and blows out.

Then I leave her alone and let her experiment with the new feeling.

She is starting to hold the newer, more relaxed position for longer.

When riding, my instructor showed me another techinque to help us relax/stretch.

Starting at halt, I comb either my right or left hand up the rope and obtain a steadier feel while I close my hand at the same time as combing up (not back). To clarify, I hold the middle of rope in my left hand and use my right hand to comb from down nearish the horses mouth (as far down as your hand will reach while you sit in a normal centred riding position) to up near my other hand (which is held straight up in the air with a steady feel on it).

You give on the rope as soon as your horse responds ie even if you have only closed two fingers on the rope. You want the horse to be light and you want to progress the technique.

Once my horse understands to bend her head either right or left, at the halt, with only a soft feel on the rope, you then progress to doing this at walk and then trot. I was riding in the rope hackamore. Others started with the hackamore and then progressed to using a snaffle bridle.

This technique really clicked with my mare and I as she could, once again, move her feet and I could allow it. She started to lift her back, use her HQ's, and stretch forward, down and out, while blowing out. Felt wonderful.

It was very important to praise her whenever she experimented with the new feeling by allowing her to stop. She really started tuning into this.

Hope this is of some help. The others will no doubt have lots of helpful advice for you.

Edited to add: I can't remember if it was two or three Parelli savvy club dvds ago but Pat rode a RBE mare who get looking to the outside of the circle and bracing her ribs to the inside.

He showed/discussed about helping her become more physically comfortable in order to help the emotional and mental side ie she was physically uncomfortable so would keep running off/bracing.

Really good demo.

I have never seen him actually do this type of demonstration before.

Clarissa

Gallop On you need to read the whole of Dr Deb Bennett’s website, along with many threads on her forum & follow her instructions.

Your stirrups are too short, your seat is too far back, being behind the sweat line that runs down from the loins instead of infront of it. Are you totally sure the saddle isn’t hurting her back? You may be working your horse in a ‘frame’ trying to force the ‘shape’ you want rather than develop the correct way of going & balance which causes the horse to achieve the ‘right shape’ for itself.

You can’t use leather straps (ie reins etc) & firmer heels to force a horse into a frame & expect to get away with it for very long.

Here is a good set of 9 videos about saddle fit:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2mKz0uP_K8

Here is Dr Deb’s website:-
http://www.equinestudies.org/
Following, is an excerpt from a forum response on her website. You should read the whole of this response at least & learn which muscles she is talking about. Here is the link:-
http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/view_...um_id=1&highlight=plasma+hand

Here is the excerp:- When a horse correctly collects, it will coil the loin, lift the thoracolumbar spine, raise the root of the neck, and reach into a neck telescoping gesture. This results in the top of the neck lengthening away, pushing the poll forwards over the nose, and opening the gap between the mandible and the wing of the atlas……please continue reading her forum post by going to the above link. Note the part about the throat latch being open & why it's so important.

Have a good look at my photo of Sonny at the bottom of my posts to see what good shape might look like on the ground. It took a year to get this shape naturally at liberty unridden. This photo is 2yrs old now & still a long way to go to achieve the same result ridden. I must add that I am not able to ride very much. If I could I would expect it to take a year of riding to get this shape once it has been achieved on the ground at liberty.

Using a rope line to a halter will interfere with the horse’s balance which is why natural dressage people use a very light cordeo which just goes around the base of the neck & doesn’t influence the balance of the head. As the horse develops better balance & muscular strength to coil it's loins as DD describes, it will be able to carry it’s head & neck higher into the classical carriage you are craving. It should take about 5-7yrs to develop the finished classical shape & smooth proper gaits you described in your original post! That’s only attainable if everything falls into place & there are no set backs in horse’s physical & mental health.

Don’t get too bound up in the RB/LB thing. Proper collection & calmness will come no matter what horsenality if you do perfect practise in the proper position! It’s your responsibility to learn what the proper & perfect practise is. I’m hoping that’s why you are asking for help. The perfection will take years, not weeks/months.

Your mare is poking her inside shoulder & ribs at you because she is hiding her other side. The side that bends least (the side inside the rib bend) is the tight side & needs the most work to stretch it out physically & mentally. When it is as equally malleable as the side the ribs bend the most, your mare will allow her nose to be carried balanced on the line of the circle. That work is done from the ground having the horse going around you with it’s tight side on the outside of the circle. You have your horse on a very short rein or hold the ring of the bit & use gentle pressure rhythmically applied low on the ribs (where your heel sits) in an upward gesture in time with the beginning of the inside back foot step as the horse walks a small circle around you. That causes the tight side to bend around the outside of the circle. The inside back foot needs to step well under the centerline & belly button each stride preferably into the hoof print of the front foot. The toe of the inside front foot should point in the direction of the circle not out of it. Once that is easily achievable at the walk without more than phase 1, you can move to asking it at the jog & so on, stating on as big a circle as you can walk beside your jogging horse.

Pat talks about this in the old, old L2 videos I think (or it might be the L3) but I don’t think there is any reference since then as it is info you are supposed to pay for & learn from an instructor.

Also study sites like AND (art of natural dressage), Karen Rolf (dressage naturally) http://www.dressagenaturally.net/ see my list on the Helpful Links page for website addresses:- http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...URAL_DRESSAGE_LINKS_about769.html

Read http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...m_doing_with_Sonny_about2789.html to see how I have been working to get Sonny lighter on his front end so he can collect naturally. I know there are other threads on here about people getting their horses working better but I can’t think of them right now.

Another point to remember is that it is imperative that you have your horse working from both sides of it’s brain (ie that both sides are awake) before you get on & ask for collection. Prove she's fully awake by making sure she can give you both eyes when you are doing the 7games in random order. That’s what the 7games are for. By the time you are asking for collection you would be doing late L3 & L4 & by then you would be doing the 7games in a way that starts asking for natural collection right away. If you aren’t up to that stage yet in your own knowledge then you are asking too much too soon from both of you.

Good luck

Niek

some good info from Clarissa, you must realise that with dressage there is lots of conflict as to how to achieve something. Their might be lots of conflicting info comming in this thread.. Its up yo you to decide what you feel most comfortable with

Il try to keep it short and to the point and in some form of order..

- Get her checked out her fysical state by a chiro,get her teeth checked out to. From a personal experience. The smallest little bit can cause major problems... Even in the scared and tense department. This can point to a whole range of issues.. To give a few examples :Magnesium shortage , kidney issues, misalignment in the crania can all lead to problems.

- Change the saddle and lengthen the stirrups atleast 3 holes.. But even then youll be to far back. Looks like a jumper/ all ultility. These nare not really suitable. And i think is the a big reason for all the tension..

-First get her soft.. Softness and flowing on the ground flows over to your riding. The better and smoother for example your falling leaf is , the smoother the rest will get..

- see how and if she can lead up real free... (Bill Dorrance exercise, made a big improvement in my pony)

- the neck round is an end result, not the first step... First get her to relax before you even worry about that.. get her to stretch. Find the best way that works for you. I think PK has the easiest to grasp way.. See if you can get his book or first dvd. But some form of softness is a prereq for this..

the rest should come more easy

PasoBaby_CarolU

Some good information above. I was having similar problems with Rosie and had Jamie (Hacienda del Sol on here) help me with better suppling and collection methods. I'll write him and ask him to chime in here. He certainly helped me and Rosie, and I wrote it all down to keep working on.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Here is an excellent clinician on exercises for biomechanics, suppling and collection.

http://www.internationalacademyof...dacademicequestrianeducation.com/

Niek

holy crap talk about a stupendously long url

... Not sure about his "enrollment" requirements but that might just be me.. The rest of his background seems really good though

Gallop On

Thanks for the advice! I will definitely look into all the things that you guys have mentioned.

Chablis;

Niek

yes its in that book

cokey

Niek

jep cokey is correct... The build up of an all purpose will put you in the sofa seat position.. This is also the reason dressage riders cant sit properly in the corret position, and they decided to bring out a typical dressage saddle..

PasoBaby_CarolU

Sarah, this is how I'm starting my practice sessions now with all my horses (BTW you DO need to change your seat position to do them. Your legs are in a totally ineffectual position for leg aids. If you need a new saddle, you don't have to spend a lot, Wintec makes nice, affordable dressage saddles that you can always find used.)

On the ground...

1. Flexing the neck both sides. Change what areas you are flexing, so you flex both upper and lower spine. When doing near the poll, remember the horse can't turn and look back there, but side to side is good. Hold each flex until the horse relaxes in that position. I do 5 in each area, trade sides and repeat for 3 rotations. You can also do some carrot stretches back to the flank area and get a real LONG stretch.

2. Flex the topline by training the horse to lower it's head on cue. Again do 5-15 times.

3. Flex the body by moving the horse forward in a small circle around you. Forward motion is critical and get the horse to step under with their hind legs. To get a bigger step under, tap the horse just as the far side leg is reaching out. It has to make a bigger step first, before the inside leg does. Make sure the head is lower and curved inward to get a bend throughout the body. This exercise is described in Mark Russell's book, Lessons in lightness.

4. Once you have that good, on every other circle raise your head, change your focus and walk towards the shoulder, so you start doing half-passes in hand. The first ones won't be pretty, but soon you'll both be pros at it.

5. Set up the cones and back figure 8's. Not the simple one foot stepping at a time backs we do in PNH, but lower the head into a tuck position and add some impulsion. Make the horse go fast enough they are pulling themselves backwards with the hindquarters. It's work.

6. Once you are in the saddle, repeat all of the above. Things to remember are to squeeze-release your reins for your turns, keeping your focus on the track you want to go so your body and leg are in the right position.

7. Backwards is probably the best exercise you can do for the rearend. When going backwards, keep your focus 180 degrees and straight of the direction you are headed, this includes the turns. With legs, remember leg on, leg off. Make yourself good at this, so your right leg moves their back left leg, leg on, leg off. I like the reins to be really a check of forward motion, though until the horse learns this you might need to squeeze-release to get the backwards steps. It is CRITICAL that you do these with the horse's head DOWN in the correct position FIRST, so the horse curls their neck and body and uses the back muscles you need for collection. You might practice the Soft Feel exercises from the OLD Level 3. Always remember, squeeze-release.

I think if you do this exercise, stop, and go directly to a trot, you'll be surprised at the different frame your horse is in already.

You need to shorten your reins too.

Julie

I would go back to the saddle first.

The saddle does NOT fit - it is much too narrow in front, this is making the pommel higher, and pushing you into the position you are in, which is more than likely most of the problem. Have you a pic of her without you riding, with and without saddle. A good saddle in balance will be a huge help to you.

What saddle is it?

I would look at the saddle first as it will be causing problems with her back, and probably also causing problems with her back.

often people will blame the stirrup bars, but IMO the main causes are the saddle fit in the first place. PM if you need more info on fitting.

thelmanelle

I, too, agree about the saddle. I had to stop using my all purpose and get a Bates dressage saddle with a medium cair tree width for my horse. It has made a big difference in how I sit the walk, trot and canter. Horse can very slow and subtly get into frame as we begin a session.

She has really picked up in her body changes even starting at 15-16 years of age. So it can be done...we have been very slow about this for a year now. She is just now starting to look like some of the other dressage horses at the horses, instead of hollow neck and back and skinny.

It's slow and rewarding to see her improve. You can do it. The synthetic saddles are more reasonable, too.

Niek

thelmanelle

We so in the dressage arena and lessons want the horse forward moving. We do an exercise, I hope I can explain it....to slow the front and disengage the hind quarters and then, walk forwards immediately. So not to create and argument with the horse. Summer is very sensitive and I have to do this quick or drop it and go back to it. But, that being said, she has really started to look like a horse.

I do not care if I ever show...but the lessons are so worth it. I hope I can continue it for her benefit and my joy. She is happy there. I would hate to have to bring her back and her lose the muscles and weight she has gained.

So much to learn. Always lesson is worth the time, provided the instructor is really about the horse and helping your learn as a rider.

carefreegirl

It is possible to get pretty good movement and collection in an all-purpose saddle, but the saddle needs to fit the rider and the horse well….It is easier to get good movement and collection though, in my opinion, in a dressage saddle, however I rode for many years in an all-purpose and achieved good results with it. The important thing is that the saddle allows you to put your legs in the classical ‘ear, hip, heel’ alignment. I found with my all-purpose saddle that I had to fight a bit to keep my legs back where they were suppose to be, so I am glad now that I have a saddle that I no longer have to fight.

The saddle that is in the pictures you provided looks to small for you, and looks uncomfortable (perhaps to narrow?) for your horse, and your stirrups where also too short in those pictures, unless you were working on jumping.

Once you have made sure there are no physical problems that may prevent better movement, and have figured out your saddle fit, then you can start improving her way of going by first improving her physique(especially HQ strength), and increasing her ability to remain relaxed while under pressure. To improve your horse’s movement you can start that on the ground, by doing things such as cavelleti, or ‘hill therapy’ though not necessarily the exact way the Parelli’s do it, and doing small and large lunging circles asking for good movement, and backing up inclines, etc.

I would also do exercises that ‘push her buttons’ but not so much that it puts her over the edge, in order to get her calmer you need to do things to get her slightly out of her comfort zone so that she can increase her comfort zone, but not so much that she losses it—and if she does loss it you need to prove to her that she can calm back down and be with you and that all is fine.

I really like the long and low exercise that Karen Rohlf uses. It teaches the horse to release their back, and that they can travel with their head down—I have found that my horse has been able to remain much more calm after learning this exercise, and now I can encourage his head down as a way to ask him to calm down. I also like all the traditional dressage circles and serpentines, and shoulder ins and haunches out, etc which will all help with suppling and loosening, there are many other exercises that help with this as well. My sources for better movement and more collection are people like Karen Rohlf, Philippe Karl (check out his awesome book "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage"), and others like them. Also if you have access to one or more good instructors they can be very helpful, or at least video yourself and critique yourself as frequently as you can.

Good luck, and remember it’s not about the horses head position, it’s about moving more correctly, the collected head frame is a result, not the goal.

kristenhorseluv

Can you describe the long and low exercise? I'm loving this thread as I'm about to start getting Jill back into shape.

carefreegirl

the long and low exercise she calls 'finding the sweet spot' and you do it first online, eventually can do it at liberty and while riding--once a horse learns to do it they usually want to do it a lot, because it feels good, it is taught by other people not just Karen Rohlf,

here are 2 youtube videos put out by Karen Rohlf, of one of her students, showing some 'prerequisites' for her clinic (mostly Parelli level 1/2 stuff)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMH7EVylqNg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMrZfpDomRQ&feature=related

both videos show things that you should be able to accomplish before starting to work more on collection...the second video about 2:20 min in she starts talking more about the sweet spot, and it is also demonstrated, though not for very long...it's hard to explain with just writing,

basically you encourage the horse to stretch down and long, keeping their nose out, not tucking it in, and stretching their back while they relax--easiest to do on a small walking circle while online at first, I can demonstrate it easier then I can type it, but I'm not near my horse right now, and won't be for several months so can't make a video of going long and low right now, there are a couple of times when I ask my boy to go long and low in my newer youtube vids though, (I'm carefreegirl51 on youtube) Hope that helps.

Gallop On

I will definitely get some more pictures of the saddle on her but it really isn't as narrow or small in the seat as some of you are making it to be, although I can see how it would look like it is too narrow and then moving my seat back, but I assure you, it fits her fine (the pommel may look a bit high because I am using a half pad under it, so it would help soak up sweat, but she's really not the kind of horse who needs extra padding on her back.) And it fits me fine. Like I mentioned earlier....I have a chair seat, due to mostly riding in a A/P saddle (6 years of lessons in one and I owned one for a while, too.) and riding on my 'balance point' (If you think I'm riding on my tail bone in that first trotting picture, then I have some older photos that are ten times worse. Thankfully they are hidden away on Photobucket on an account I don't even use anymore LOL)

Nowadays I study Centered Riding and my riding position has gotten way way way better. It's just my legs like to habituate forwards....super frustrating but I am definitely working on it with LOTS of two point and double posting. And if anyone has any suggestions for my rebellious legs then let me know

Oh and if anyone is interested, the saddle is a Marcel Tolouse Celine.

And I believe that MT saddles are made from the same blueprints as Pessoa saddles, but with different leather/materials. It's not an awful quality saddle, though, but it doesn't have the price tag of a Pessoa.

Anyway.....as a small update about how May is doing, I've been letting her go out on a circle and do what she wants, so long as she's relaxed about it. She'll offer things, like changing gait, and have her inside ear right on me, but the rest of her body still says 'I'm paying attention to what's going on to the outside of the circle!' Neck slightly turned, nose sticking out, rib cage bent towards me, etc. I have control of her feet and one ear, but not so much influence on her body, basically.

But I am giving her rewards for the small things. If she bobs her head down and tucks her nose in, even if it's half an inch, I let her come in. If she turns and faces me, with both ears and eyes on me, I let her come in. I'm also very polite with the send. I ask her to back and I only ask her to go out on the circle when she's looking at me. But as soon as she's on that circle, she looks away.

thelmanelle

Pessoa makes wonderful saddles, blankets, etc. That is a beautiful saddle. I have the fluidity but could not stay in a good position. That's why I changed for the dressage lessons.

I use my fluidity for my TWHs, my bates for my thoroughbred...and my harnesses for my Belgians!

It works. Some day I love to invest in a leather dressage saddle, but I don't have to do that...right now, everything is working.

You find a saddle that has a wide gullet for the back pommel to cantle and if the withers are not pinched and the shoulders are not blocked, then it might be right?

Julie

The saddle looks a good one, but I ould still say it does not fit, your comments re the pommel being higher and your legsmoving forward are classic signs of this. You can try and change so many things but if you miss this first basic then you will find it very hard, we are only trying to help - I am an english saddle fitter and see this all of the time.

carefreegirl

It is not the quality of the saddle that is in question; it is where it is placing you as a rider.

I have a Pessoa Blyth Tait Saddle (found it kinda humorous when you mentioned Pessoa's in your post above), which I used to ride in (before that I had a Wintec 2000, both are all-purpose/jumping saddles), both were fairly decent saddles, the Blyth Tait is a very well made high quality saddle and though it was a great saddle for jumping, and basic flat work (which is what it was designed for), it was not that great for asking my horse to move better in collection/dressage (despite the fact that it was advertised for 3-day Eventers to be used in each stage of 3-day Eventing, though to be fair I do believe the advertising did specify lower levels of 3-Day eventing, and cross-country is where this saddle would be the best).

It did not help me be in the best position to help my horse, unless we were jumping and going cross-country (it was designed to put me in the ‘ear, hip, heel’ alignment when I was in a jumping position, so it was great for that), it was NOT designed to allow me to be in the correct position as EASILY when my butt was in the saddle to do more collected work in it. I could get into the correct position but it took work, and a lot longer stirrup length then I used while jumping, For example: I would go down at least three holes for flat work, and up three holes for small jump work. In my Wintec 2000 which was a lesser quality saddle it was an even bigger fight to get into the correct position then it was in the Pessoa.

Just like my saddle(s), your saddle does not fit you well in order to EASILY allow you to get into the 'ear, hip, heel' alignment (with your butt in the saddle), Perhaps if you lengthened your stirrups you would be able to fight your way into that position, which I did for many years in my Wintec and then in my Pessoa. It is possible, it’s just harder.

I won't say for sure that your saddle does not fit your horse from those few pictures (especially since I am not there in person, and I'm not an expert in that field), however I will say that your horse does not look comfortable in those pictures, whether that is from saddle fit or something else I do not know for sure (I think though that the saddle is a likely culprit), I will say however that your saddle does not fit you well in order to allow the 'ear, hip, heel' alignment, or at least it does not allow you to easily get into that position. (also to my eye it looks a little too small for you, but then again I like a saddle to be a little roomy) Perhaps if you lengthened your stirrups you would be able to fight your way into that position, which I did for many years.

From the looks of your pics you are in pretty good alignment in the walking pic (which is also where your horse looks the most relaxed) I think the two may be related. I think at the slower gait you are able to keep your legs back more easily, which was the case for me as well.

You said that you follow Centered Riding which is by Sally Swift which is great, that is one of my favorite books also (I like both of her books), and Sally Swift also encourages the 'ear, hip, heel' alignment, though it has been long enough that I am not for sure if she specifically states those words in her books, but if you look at the images in her book, the images that are labeled as 'correct' are all in that alignment.

So if I was in your position and was capable of getting a saddle designed for dressage (and would let me be in the correct position easily) I would make that purchase, if you are not capable of doing that, then ensure that your current saddle is comfortable for your horse, then lengthen those stirrups at least three holes (you may have to do this progressively), and concentrate every time you ride to keep your legs back in the correct position.

You can do exercises when you are not riding to increase your leg strength. You can also practice being in the correct alignment off of your horse, There is no magic pill or magic exercise unfortunately to get your legs back where they should be, it will take time, and practice. There are many exercises demonstrated in the Centered Riding books that should also help in your quest to get your legs back.

I’m not perfect by any means, and I hope this is not offensive to you in any way. I just have been in your shoes before so when you asked for advise/help I thought I’d share what I have learned.

Clarissa

Julie correct me if I’m off track here. Some basics on saddle fit. There are 2 points on the saddle that should be horizontal if it is the right saddle for the horse & it’s in the correct position. They are usually defined by the D-rings or studs screwed into the tree just below the pommel & slightly towards the back of the seat in the skirt. This saddle has the pommel stud & D-ring where a breast plate might be attached but the back one is missing so I can only guess where it should be.

With those 2 points horizontal, the lowest part of the dip in the seat should be directly under your balance point & your legs should hang almost straight down from there. I have put some lines on these photos to show. In any case it shows your legs would be too far off the saddle flaps, therefore it is the wrong shape saddle.

Here is the original photo that I drew the lines on.

Here is the first place I thought the horizontal line should be & to get the line horizontal I straightened the photo in photoshop after drawing the lines in.

Here is another with the line through the D-ring instead of the stud at the front.

Some people say the all purpose saddle should be level from the top of the pommel to the top of the cantle but that would not make the D-rings level. mmmmmm

carefreegirl

Yes Clarissa, if she chooses to stay in the saddle that she is in, and if she does manage to fight her legs back to where they should be her legs will not be completely on the flaps (tall riding boots a plus in this situation to avoid pinching), and she will have a large amount of flap in front of her legs; I'm not for sure about the specifics of the lines that you drew either, but know from personal experience that you will have a lot of extra flap in front of your leg if you get in the correct position when doing flat work in this type of saddle--your knees will most likely not be touching the knee rolls on your saddle (if your saddle has knee rolls), though when jumping your knees would be touching those knee rolls. This type of saddle is definitely designed for a more forward seat then the seat that is the best for learning and doing more collected flat work. It's possible in this type of saddle, but it is harder, much harder. At least that has been my experience.

Chablis

Reminds me of the position my Wintec Wide saddle put me in, especially on my gelding who's wither is level with his croup - a downhill battle.

I agree that with a saddle that puts you in the right postion it will make a world of difference. It will also help you get off your horses back so she can lift it move easily and perhaps slow down a bit.

Great thread guys.

Julie

Clarissa - you are getting there. The third picture would be the most correct.

Ignore the pins and d rings at the front, these are just where the saddle happens to put them. Also ignore your balance point in my opinion.

The saddle when placed on the horse should have the lowest point in the centre of the saddle. You can check this by simply rolling an object and seeing where it settles! Once you have a saddle which wil sit on the back with this point central you can look at other areas. Ifits too tight in front, the centre will ALWAYS be too far back. Often it will look fine, until you physicaly lift the back of the saddel an inch, then you will see that it actually looks more level lifted, so play with it, and make sure this is right. In the third picture, this is almost right, maybe the front would need a little more lift though.

Then look at the line of the panels, this should fit pretty horizontal to the ground, and the panel will ideally be pretty flat. The one in the picture has a curve to it, so is not ideal, but may still fit the horse.

Then you just fill in the gaps!, starting with the back. if there is loads of room under the front, especially if the horse has atrophy, then thats a good start. Shim under the back to ensure the saddle is level, often it won't need anything, then shim the front to fill in the gap. This softly shimmed area, will encourage the horse to move and redevelop muscle.
Check that the saddle remains in the same place when you press on the pommel and cantle. If either move, your shims are not right and you need to look again.

Saddles are rarely made these days so that the pommel and cantle are the same height, so you can't look at that. Post me some pics and I can tell you

Gallop On

I leave for college in three days, but I'll definitely try to take some pictures of my saddle on May. Although I am bringing her up to college with me, so if I don't post within the next three days, then I'll get them later, for sure.

Julie

Clarissa and others, you may find this interesting, click on the video on this page

http://www.e-saddler.co.uk/products/hennig/hennig.htm

ladycfp

Your stirrups are way short and I agree it *looks like* the saddle fit is putting you into that position. I too rode for years like this- looking at pictures now I wince. A friend at a Harry Whitney clinic last summer came right out with it, "What's with the jockey stirrups?" which to me was traditional hunter/jumper seat position that no longer was appropriate to what I was doing.

Harry suggested putting my legs into a position where if I imagine the horse walking out from under me, I'd be able to stand while in my riding position. It is about balance. Somehow the visual for me of sitting in the saddle and asking myself, could I STAND if my horse walked away? helps. You may find (I suspect) your current saddle will not support this balance, looks like your stirrups are too far forward. Hope this helps. It is hard to change the way we sit and ride, years (in my case decades) of muscle memory to work against, but little by little I am getting there.

Clarissa