| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Kim Cassidy |
Toe Callus???As per the request a new thread.The first two photos are of two different horses. This is not a healthy foot, very thin soled. The third photo is of a radiograph of a different horse, but one who had the toe ridge that can be seen in the first two. Look how thin the sole is. The last two photos are of a very sound horse. Never needs shoes, boots or anything to do his job. He is sound over all terrain. Foot shown has not been trimmed in 6 months or so (experimenting). 
If you trim the thin soled horse to remove all the wall, you've just dumped the horse on its coffin bone. This type of horse needs 24/7 protection as far as I'm concerned 
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| ElaineC |
One of the ponies I trim has a toe ridge like in the first couple of photos. Shoes are not an option for these people, and I don't think boots come small enough. He is sound except when on their gravel / stone dust driveway, is kept trim, and regularly exercised. When they bought him he was severely foundered, to the point he was going to be euthanized, and the farrier before me (they moved into my area) did a great job of getting him back up on his feet.
Enter me - at this point he's mostly sound, happy, and rideable for the kids on soft ground. He had a wide wedge of keratin in the toe area that has receded to almost nothing, but is still prone to seedy toe and a weak connection there. I typically roll the toe very carefully, trying to find good structure that will not break down before his next trim. He has the toe ridge pictured, and it never seems to go away. Trying to get the hoof wall to grow below this point is very difficult, he tends to get chippy or weakly connected wall by the time its low enough to protect the toe ridge, almost splintery. He's been treated with Clean Trax, Thrushbuster etc to try clear up the seedy toe, but it seems to always grow back crumbly / splintery in the toe area. His quarters and heels are like Goodyear tires - tough, grow well, nicely connected. Any solutions for this little guy? So far he's ok, his owners are thrilled he's staying sound, but they are not willing to put shoes on him. I would love to see a proper toe on him, and that toe ridge gone. I've been trimming him for about a year now, and his soles have never been touched with a hoof knife, other than to knock out crumblies. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I prefer a particular type of shoe, but totally understand when this is not an option.
If you live in a dry area, the second solution would more than likely work for you if not, I would use the first. 1. Use impression material in the commissures of the frog and around the apex. You will need to hoof test the toe area to see how much IM the horse can stand. If he is sound as you say on most terrain, he should be okay. After you pack the material in really well, Equicast the foot. You have to be creative to make some sort of bottom that provides traction if the horse runs a lot. Leave this on for 3 - 4 weeks at a time. 2. Use Vettec's Superfast to create a "shoe" and leave it on for about 3 weeks at a time. This will give the horse a break from the inflammation he is experiencing at every step. Sole depth will start to build very quickly. If you have weak laminae that ridge makes sense. It is trying to support the pedal bone and keep it off the ground. Seeing this is always a sign of a distressed foot. Protect, protect, protect. Use whatever tools you have at your disposal, but get it done :D Hope that helps. |
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| Clarissa |
Well today I’ve been putting 2 &2 together. Having a toe callous is not a good thing  How come nobody told me that??? Sonny has had them for years. They are referred to in most writings but no-one has ever actually put into words that toe callouses mean bad things happening inside the hoof!!!! 
It always been that a certain horse has them & they are protecting P3. Nothing about P3 being wrong in some way & the callouses being the external manifestation of that wrong. Sonny’s soles are about 6mm thick & I witnessed this when the vet had to dig a foreign object out of his near side front sole. In over 5yrs of various natural trims no-one ever said those toe callouses are showing up a really bad thing happening inside Some practitioners even say to remove them each trim while others say don’t worry about them. No-one points out you should deal with the reason they are there. 
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| Kim Cassidy |
Clarissa,
Last post, have to get out the door. A horse with 6mm of sole is a horse with extremely, thin soles. I did NOT say anywhere in any of my posts to remove the toe callus. I said IF you see it, you have a problem hoof or hooves. I am a teacher, as well as farrier in the field. My job is to be able to read a hoof and to know what to do for it. When I teach the horse owner to trim for themselves, I teach them to use the tools and then, how to read the hoof. What you have to do depends on what you have in front of you on any particular day. What you work on at visit one, might not be what you are working on at visit two. I saw your horses feet and you have done a great job on improving them. Your next job should be to develop as quickly as possible, sole depth and hoof mass. If your horse has 6mm of sole, I wouldn't do it without 24/7 protection of some sort. Please go back and look at my first post in this thread, I called the unhealthy hooves a toe ridge The second, sound horse has what you all are calling a callus type material around the lip of the sole at the edge of the toe. BUT and I mean BUT, look at the sole depth and mass. That is healthy, the other two aren't.
What I'm saying, is, if your horse looks anything like the first two, you have a big problem, if like the last horse, Yeah Baby. |
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| Blue Flame |
Just wanted to clarify a couple of things according to my understanding.
I prefer to call it a callous ridge - because a ridge is a more accurate description as it is a thin band of dense material in line with the bottom edge of P3. The term toe callous reminds me of much stuff that I have read that describes a wide flat area under the toe which is either created by sole filling or by excessive wear on the callous ridge. Sole filling in behind it - from not trimming toe sole - just fills in concavity. Some trimmers used to advocate striving for a crescent shaped calloused area in front of the frog made of built up and packed in dead sole. However, I have spoken with at least one farrier who believes that built up sole in an isolated area can be like having a stone permanently lodged there and risks fracturing P3. Excessive wear on the ridge is just like if you rasped it flat and thinned the sole. Excessive wear can be caused by the horse overusing the front of the foot i.e. not loading the heels well enough for whatever reason. Clarissa, the callous ridge will always be there (it needs to be) until the bone pokes through the sole. The ridge is main support of P3 from underneath. However, in a healthy foot it will blend in with the flow of concavity and as such won't be seen as such a distinct, seperate feature. Going back to the breakover article, Pete does point this out . . . .
So, in a healthy hoof it is not visible - but it is still there doing it's job of supporting P3. The ridge is not an evil thing in and of itself - it is a good thing - but the more visible is becomes the more it warns you about sole thickness and P3 position. Also from Sonny's thread you mentioned about the callous getting stretched into the whiteline. I'd just like to confirm what you see as I see it as well in one of Blue Flame's front feet. I think that if the ridge stretches/flares forward enough, so that it is no longer well supported, the ground drives it upwards into the whiteline under the weight of the horse. Since it is denser than almost everything else, it drives its way into the whiteline area. You have to remember that a cross section of the ridge will show that it is not vertical but on an angle matching the P3 - just like well connected wall. So being on this angle, it depends upon only itself and the wall outside it to stop it from flaring. Weakening the wall by overly thinning it removes the structure that helps keep it from flaring. With my current thinking on this tendency of the ridge to flare forward under the weight of the horse, I consider even more important to retain wall thickness. So what to do about it . . . I'll reference Ramey again, even though some people are getting sick of only reading posts about him. His info is the stuff I'm most familiar with so is the only info I feel comfortable enough to post about. PR sets breakover with reference to the callous ridge if it is visible. He sets it 1/4" (allowing 1/8" for whiteline and 1/8" for wall rim) outside of the ridge with a 15-20degree bevel. Then he applies a mustang roll (bevel and blend. He checks that against well connected upper wall angle for confirmation - but reading upper wall angle can be deceptive in some circumstances. There is a bit more to it than that for horses with a large lamellar wedge but that's the basics of it. He has a couple of things to consider when bringing breakover back. First one is if a horse is getting around ok, he'll bring it back slowly. This is because bringing breakover back lengthens stride and can force a heel first landing that may be too severe for the horse depending on how healthy the back of the foot is. If the back of the foot isn't up to it, they might compensate by toe walking. Second consideration is that he doesn't bring breakover back and lower heels in the same trim. This is so that as the breakover tends to put them back to a heel first landing, the heels can absorb some of the impact as they sink into the terrain and take some of the pressure off the frogs/lateralcartiledges/digital cushions. If the terrain is hard and flat so that the heels don't sink into it, it is not so much of an issue to trim them. Important note: Since the breakover is referenced to the outside of the ridge, do not even consider it unless the outside of the ridge is clearly defined. If the sole has no "hump" but instead has a flat area near the periphery, the remaining callous ridge could be anywhere within that flat area so can't be used as a reference. In the last set of pics you posted, I see a flat area near the toe - not an actual hump - so I would not be able to determine where the inside and outside of the ridge may be. Hence I would not use it as a reference point. |
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| Clarissa |
Thanks for clarifying lots of names of things BF
I mentioned in my topic about Sonny's feet (& here too I think  ) that those callouses move around somewhat. You are right in saying they can't be used for reference. It's often disconcerting when I'm trying to get regular improvement, then the callous ridges disappear for a awhile! 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Elaine and Clarissa....hoof casts are very easy to do...even I manage quite well now. LOL
Elaine, you could probably get both front feet clean and ready and do 1/2 the roll on each foot since they are so small...but you have to be quick, the stuff sets up quickly. Something KC LaPierre had me do was set the foot down on a foam block while it sets. This lets the foam help form the bottom of the cast into the sole. You put it in the collateral groves before you set it down. The wraps are pretty affordable, $15 each for a 2" roll. They last for 4-5 weeks, depending on terrain. Only ONE thing, they are very slippery on concrete or asphalt, so if the horses live with those surfaces, keepting them off or putting sand on them will help. |
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| Newfman |
I don't get too concerned when I hve trouble finding the sole callous. I get concerned when I don't.
Th following is how I think of the process. The "callous ridge" should follow the concavity, and be part of the sole structure. A wad of sole material is not a sign of a strong sole. If you think about how the sole moves with every step, it is almost like the metal tab in your clicker (or cricket for us ol' fahts). It moves down under load, and pops back up when unloaded. The point where the sole joins the whiteline and hoof wall, it takes the most abuse from this movement. Bend a metal tab in the middle and then keep bending it back and forth and back and forth over and over and what happens??? First it gets hot, then fatigued, then it breaks. The callous ridge is keratanized sole material, and because it replaces itself through sole growth, and is under this regular stress for the whole time it is part of the sole (till it wears off) it becomes calloused for integrity. Regular uncalloused sole would just tear and break away. If there isn't a nice tight, fine calloused ridge, I start to look for reasons why. Again this takes me back to the quality of trim, then the hoof quality triangle. |
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| Blue Flame |
Umm . . . diet, movement and trim? |
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| Clarissa |
I’ve got things confused!!  I was thinking a hoof cast was the big lump of snow or mud that builds up on the horse’s hoof
We live & learn!! 
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Here you go Clarissa. This is Perfect Hoofware, but you can get similar casting material from your vet. I do prefer the PHW, but realize you probably can't get it in Australia.
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| Clarissa |
Paso what is the reason for putting that cast on? | ||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Here is the website on PHW. There are several uses. I mentioned it to you because Susan (RidingAllDay) recommended it for Sonny's feet. Maybe she can explain how it will help him.
http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/perfecthoofwear/index.html I use on Bien, who is my laminitic IR mare. It stabilizes her hoof wall and allows her to be exercised, which is critical for IR horses. It has literally saved this horse's life. |
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| learningthedance |
I used casts on Gypsy too, but to be honest, it was the boots with pads that really made a huge difference.
Here is an excellent article by Pete Ramey on casting. Very informative with lots of pictures as well, and he goes into great detail to make things clear. Also, keep in mind, as Pete states..."An improperly applied cast could cause serious problems. A cast left on too long could wear through at ground level and slide up the leg, damaging the coronet. A cast wrapped too tight could rob circulation. The duration and method used requires careful consideration of many factors." http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoofcast.htm I think (IMO), that he would bennefit more from a good fitting pair of boots and the correct pads that are recommended for them, but at least you have a couple good options. |
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| Autumn |
Do you have any pics of a Superfast shoe applied? where do you apply the "shoe" (wall only. sole & wall?) thanks! |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Sorry, I don't. Just pack the collateral grooves, cover the frog and around the apex with Playdoh. Then run a huge amount of superfast around the perimeter of the foot. Use cellophane or wax paper to smoosh it up around the outer hoofwall. Once it has set, use your rasp to pretty it up
Sorry I've never taken pix, it's just me, the glue, the paper and the thought of grabbing my camera just doesn't occur to me. Unless I grew a few more hands :D |
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| Autumn |
I dont think the pladough would stay in there with all the snow we have! What is the idea behind that? | ||||
| Kim Cassidy |
I guess I left a bit of instruction out
After applying the superfast and after it has set, remove all the playdoh. Which was placed there to keep the superfast from filling in the collateral grooves or covering any of the frog tissue :D :D :D You want superfast around the perimeter of the hoofwall and in the solar area in front of the apex of the frog. |
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| Autumn |
Okay that makes sense! think my kids will get mad if I stuff the playdough back in the can & act like I didn't do it?? | ||||
| fairhavenranch |
Oh crap. Add this to my false sole problem and now I am COMPLETELY confused.
Can I get a text book definition of "toe callus" and it's function or the pathology it indicates? I am trying to extract it from this thread but despite reading it twice my head is spinning.
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| Clarissa |
This is how I understand PR's discription of toe callous.
According to Pete Ramey the toe callous is hoof material that is more dense that the rest of the sole & lies under the (distal?)end of P3 (coffin bone/pedalbone) to protect it more. Apparently in a healthy hoof it is barely visible but in a hoof such as Sonny's where the sole is very thin it shows up easily. In the photo below PR is pointing to an area of solid blue colour he has just drawn under the point of P3. In the top diagram he has drawn it so there is no protrusion past the sole. In the lower diagram he has given it a slight bulge downward indicating an extended callous. In the healthy hoof it should not be overly wide but Sonny's is quite wide & moves around a bit (actually the hof moves around P3 )
In the photo I put beside the dvd frame of PR, there is a wide paler area of sole inside the wall & white line which is his toe callous & it ridges up as far as the ground & wear will allow it to, because he has no concave sole so he needs the extra protection. It extends well around into each quarter. Inside that toe callous there is a darker area then the frog. 
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| Kim Cassidy |
There are only theories on the toe callus, and it seems to abound mostly in the barefoot and NB world.
Clarissa, You did a great job of explaining Pete's ideas, thanks. I myself, prefer to call the second diagram explanation a Ridge and as I said, to me it is an indicator of extremely thin soles. The callus Pete is showing on the healthy foot, I don't call anything :D I just say, "now that is a healthy sole" Your horses foot is NOT the same as the second diagram you are showing of Pete's video. (BTW, I'm not sure if you are supposed to be pulling clips from his DVD and pasting them on a public forum  )
Pete is showing a foundered horse, yours is more of a thin soled horse with distal descent. You do have a long toe, but you really can't get rid of it until you build sole depth/mass. Of course these are just my thoughts and experiences. |