| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| Newfman |
Toe First-Heel First- Primary Hoof/ground contact discussionContinued from http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?p=62629This should make searching the topic easier, for future generations. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Good topic.
Since you decided to explore this, I can see the heel first landing at the walk or slow gait. I know when I run, I land flat footed. So, I'd like to see you all explore if this is OK or not, and why it wouldn't be at faster speeds. I understand why toe-first landings are bad. |
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| Newfman |
Newfman wrote:
Pat and I had this conversation months ago. He has done very little in the pressure testing of barefoot horses. Yes I know, that is not where his interest lies. M.C.V. van Heel et al, was pressure testing horses back in 2004. his study was based on horses not shod. Dynamic Pressure Measurments for the Detailed Study of Hoof Balance: The Effects of Trimming. EVJ (2004) 36 (  778-782
His scientific tests were performed at the, Derona Equine Performance Laboratory, Department of Equine Sciences, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, Yalelaan 12, NL-3584 CM Utrecht, The Netherlands Quote:
I don't know what shod horses you are looking at, but I have two horses of my own, one shod, one bare. Shod horse lands heel first in the fronts AT THE WALK, sometimes at the trot depending if I'm walking up hill or down. Also depends on the terrain, firm, loose etc. I have a number of clients that are shod and they land heel first as do the barefoot ones (depending on their gaits, terrain). Some though land flat, barefoot and shod If horses didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. If I had a rock in my shoe, it would alter my gait and my foot landing sequence. Does that mean that it is proper and healthy? Not really. The idea, is to understand what is proper and healthy, then figure out what is wrong that makes a horse do it different. There are always anomolies. There is always the horse that broke it's leg, or was born windswept, or has kissing spine syndrome or some other issue. You can't take that and average it all out to come up with a standard of health and proper movement. That is the problem I have with Pat Reilly's study. If the horse is already shod, he is already altered. You cannot use that as a standard for the healthy hoof. It is another category all together. Next thing you know, we would have to add TWH's from the Big Lick into the mix. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you watch high speed video of a shod horse at the trot/canter- You will notice the tendancy to flatten out the hoof just prior to landing, more so likely on a horse that has been shod for awhile, as opposed to one more new to shoes, but that is speculation. They certainly can and do land heel first shod, but it isn't pretty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJh8Cvyx4ek Of course, they are landing heel first, yes? The steel attached to the hoof removes the hoofs natural ability to flex. thus causing a lateral heel first landing horse (as they should be) to have the remainder of his hoof slammed down to the ground surface by leverage and the loss of flexibility. Does this happen in soft beach sand on Cumberland Island Georgia? Doubtful, as there is no leverage happening to a horse in deep soft sand. Oh, and why does a horse need four shoes in soft arena footing? Because they are cool? Likely not.[/color] If you watch the video link I shared you will see it would be nigh on impossible for that horse to land heel first at that gait, with that rider with the head in that position. A long toed horse lands tends to land toe first as the break-over is delayed. He tends to have a shorter choppier stride, and as a matter of timing he cannot really reach out and get that heel first landing. And excess of this creates hoof pathologies and may lead to it becomming more a necessity for comfort, as opposed to just a timing issue. In Piaffe, the horse is doing an un-natural move. There is no reach. You force the horse into a short stride for the purpose of entertainment. Then you call his toe first landing correct? That is a little confusing. Again, it is a compensatory response. Not natural. I think the people here are trying to find a more natural means to maintaining their horse. That tends to exclude doing things that make it " nigh on impossible for that horse to land heel first at that gait, with that rider with the head in that position." To them. . .It's about the Horse. What about this horse? How can it land heel first in the front when it is using it's front limbs to pull itself forward? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgG_Gwy7Ysg Oh yeah, that's natural. Am I saying a horse never takes a toe first step? No, that would be rediculous. As a primary hoof to ground contact at all gaits, lateral heel first would be proper and in keeping with the design of the foot and hoof. Ravel (shod in the Epona's) watch how he moves and when he has heel first and when he doesn't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-BNw0dtZzs You should say, When he can and when he can't. Again, my point is statements about absolutes, the only absolute is there are none. We trim for balance based on a static moment, and hopefully we take the entire horse into consideration while doing so. We desire certain things in a hoof that means health. My complaint is that it does not fit one mold, nor one model that so many profess it must do. What is healthy in Newfoundland may not be what is healthy in New Mexico. What form is healthy in a wet environment may not be what we are used to seeing in an arid or rocky environment. It is based upon what research and actual science has shown is the horses "Natural" environment. All things compensate to an unnatural environment, or cease to exist. A man in space for 2 months and not under the effects of gravity, needs to be rehabilitated when he is brought back to earth. That is why, the space program instituted an exercise program for the astronauts in space, outside their natural environment. So, we trim horses to allow their feet to properly function outside their natural environment. We use protection because we then ask them to do things that we haven't allowed them to adapt to. Boots and eponas allow for more natural hoof mechanism. Steel shoes do not. You still have to have the foot in proper shape. You cannot attach eponas to a long toed underrun, pathologic hoof and call it sound and proper. Cumberland Island horses and Chincoteague horses ar no different than my Step mothers, brothers two horses i remember seeing as a child. Could not figure out why they had horns for feet. I know now, and is that them adapting to their environment? Is that the "model" we should be using for our pasture pet horses, and retirees? Does it not make sense that a horse grows a foot outside the design of the desert mustang or brumby, because, he can't help it? Because they enjoy navicular syndrome? Again, not likely. There are certain forms we should look for and I think that is where a lot of confusion has come about. I routinely see on the internet examples of "health" that to my eye are not. Overworked frogs, over trimmed bars, or no hoofwall left. These things are touted as desirable and to the horse many times it is not. Overworked frogs? Really? How do you determine over worked frog syndrome? Obsessing on a heel first landing, when one should be obsessing on protecting the foot is what can lead many to trouble. Based on? Learn Anatomy, BioMechanics and the Physiology of the horse and understanding can start to happen. I think Dr. Bowker has provided us with some good research as has Dr. Pollitt but they are not the end all be all and their research, as is most research, is influenced by their belief systems. Lets take what they have shared and keep pushing for more information. Dr. Bowkers work is from a very limited pool of resources. We need to keep that in mind when utilizing what he has to say. I'm not saying dismiss it all, just keep all the points in mind (in vitro compared to in vivo). In Vitro/In Vivo? I think i know what you are saying, though that doesn't really work. I expect that a horse would walk the same in his dirt paddock as he would on a basketball court. they either are healty, or not. Why should one care how a wild Brumby's foot looks if they live in Georgia, or Virginia? The terrain, the living conditions, none of it is the same. Why should one emulate the trim of a mustang living in Nevada if one lives in Pennsylvania or New York? Those are my points. If you go watch some of the Mustang's out West you will see that they have imbalances, they don't all land heel first, they have chips, no concavity, etc. But they are sound and doing just fine without all kinds of trimming parameters. What I've found to be a common hoof feature amongst them is that they all have dry recessed frogs and a hoofwall that touches the ground long before the sole does. Some have vaulted soles and some don't (depends on the season, too). Why aren't we emulating the marsh wild horses? Flares, flat feet, underrun heels? Hmmmmm Covered that in upper responses. Anyway, Here is a Mule living in the driest of conditions, barefoot and sound (and ridden a lot). Does this fit into any of the trim du jours? Looks like he is doing a bit of a Ramey trim. I'm not really sure of your point. I know of a horse with a completely fused fetlock joint that is completely, and I use this term loosley, sound. Besides, I am talking about horses. I make no claim to knowledge about mules, donkeys, zebras etc. I'm just asking people to question think for yourselves and understanding what you are repeating. Sounds like. . .they are. Does that explain my thoughts any better? |
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| Newfman |
Has everyone's font size changed, or just mine?
Gotta' get my reading glasses out now. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Dennis, you can go to View and then Zoom and then Zoom In to enlarge the font on the page.
I had a question on the mule pictures too. Mine had to do with the study that determined that the majority of horses don't have sound feet, even though they appear sound and are not lame. So, I have to wonder IF a horse or mule doesn't act lame and appears sound, how is one to determine if their feet are correct, or if they're in that huge majority among the symptomless majority, who just appear sound? To be honest, I have to even question that study, since how would you KNOW those horses aren't sound, if they appear, move, and act sound all the time? |
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| Newfman |
Carol,
If you land flat footed, you are short strided in your gait. You sure you aren't doing more of a plodding, than a real athletic run? Are you in athletic form? A runner ( my other half has run three L.A. Marathons, and no, that does not make me an expert) She was a member of the L.A. Leggers running club. If you land flat footed when running, you are setting yourself up for shin splints as well as destroying your knees, hips and ankles. the Human foot too, was designed to roll down in a heel to toe moment. Does everypone do that? No. Is everyone the epitome of good health? No. So should we all do like Carol does because she lives in desert country? No. Not picking on you Carol. Just sort of using your example. Even sprinters, in their hard drive to pick up speed, step off their toe at the start but then it is a long reach and a heel first landing and a toe launch to the flight phase of the stride. when you get overly fatigued as a runner, and you start into that "plodding" gait, you would bee better to just walk, than to beat your joints to death. I gaurantee you, there isn't a huge difference in speed at that point. Live to run another day. As far as seeing horses do it a faster strides. . .for most people it is difficult to see their own horse landing toe first until you show them and tell them how to see it. So, seeing a heel or toe first landing at a faster gait, would be very difficult for the untrained eye. That is, of course, why there are high speed cameras. The final determination of how the hoof will touch down in the initial ground contact phase, should be determined by the horse. We can affect his landing sequence by how we maintain his feet, and what we put on them. If you watch a horse that has that nice smooth floating trot out in the pasture, you will see how the hoof seems to hover for just a moment before touching down. At that point, the horse basically flips his foot forward, and extends his pastern. At that point he will allow it to settle, lateral heel first, and then his foot rolls down. That would be a proper, healthy, primary hoof to ground contact. By design. |
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| Newfman |
Thanks Carol, i'll try that.
That has been a pet peeve of mine for a very long time. Basically, it is the frame of reference. Any horse that isn't limping, is sound. Right? That seems to be the idea. Even the fierce Canus Lupus when injured, will not show discomfort until it is too bad to stand. They know that the other wolves will band aginst them as a weakling, or ban them from the pack as a liability. Old wolves go off to die alone. The consumate prey animal. The Horse. Their only real means of defense. . .run like mad! They are a herd animal. How does the lion or the wolf select which horse to clip from a herd? The Weak, the sick, the young, the old and the. . .??? Yup, the injured. Animals don't take showing pain or weakness lightly. If your horse is lame, and it wasn't an acute trauma, your horse has been hurting for awhile. That is why when a horse starts showing lameness, and the vet takes rads. there are already changes and remodelling of bone. That is done over time. The active changes, e.g. ringbone, side bone, enthisiopytes, proliferative periosteal reactions and bone loss are all painful and happen over time. They are usually developing long before your horse starts limping around. At that point, your buddy has just accepted. . . being eaten. In my book, a horse that lands to first, is lame and limping on both feet. How would you describe a horse that limps on both front feet? It is symptomatic of and compensatory to, caudal hoof pain. Plain and simple. |
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| Newfman |
Thanks Carol, that worked! | ||||||||||||
| Kim Cassidy |
Absolutely Not! That is why it is critical to understand that health is more than just a trim. I have a number of criteria I use to evaluate soundness and walking without limping is only one of them. I look at the poll, the eyes, the neck, the back, the shoulders, the loins, the hocks, etc. Do I spend 5 hours doing this? No as time goes on I get better and better and assessing these areas. It is like driving as you get better you see more and are more "aware". Well not everyone, some people just suck as drivers 
What I meant back in the original thread is that a heel first landing is not a MUST for every horse. I think I've said that 30 times now. Shoes should not be thrown out with the bathwater. Some horses have healthier feet WITH shoes on. Sometimes for only a few cycles, sometimes for the rest of their lives. How they are applied and the trim protocol used is vital as is the barefoot only route. Not every horse is born perfect. Not every horse is raised perfect. Therefore there will be problems and trying to force a specimen foot model on them just will never work. Some horses will always have long toes and no amount of subtraction[b] is going to change that. Some horses will always have contration, weak DC's and no amount of [b]subtraction based modalities will fix that.
Yes I can. Because in most instances I can't make a horse short toed and strong heeled in one visit. It is a process so I apply the Epona's where I'd like the "perfect" foot to be and over time the foot gets as good as its going to. Either the horse than goes bare or it stays in the Epona's. Here is one such horse He has been lame and barefoot for years. Owner used barefoot trimmers, farriers, boots, etc. Nothing has worked. This is his second set of shoes. 
The foot still isn't perfect but the owner is thrilled and the horse is moving better than he ever has. It isn't magic, it isn't that I'm some brilliant person, it's just common sense and protecting and/or enhancing structures that need it. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I noticed this in a post
[quote]Overworked frogs? Really? How do you determine over worked frog syndrome? [/qupte] First I did not call it a syndrome, yikes, please don't add words to my ideas (they are scary enough). I've determined this over the years in my own work as well as the work of a number of my peers. So far every sound barefoot I've seen doesn't want a huge fat shiny frog hitting the ground before everything else. I have done a lot of research on moisture and the hoof there are a lot of studies out there and Water is not a friend of Keratin. If I see a foot, that in my eyes is over trimmed, placing the coffin bone too close to the ground, I usually see a fat shiny frog. An exaggerated toe flicking landing. This to me is an over stressed frog. I could show you pictures but I don't have owner permission. You can see them in the photo archives on barefoothorsecare. If any of you are members I can go and reference those I'm talking about.
I don't think so, but that is me. Again reference studies by Pat Reilly, OBE System folks (in Aussie) and Guelph studies. Terrain influences hoof form and function. If anyone doesn't believe me. Try walking on the concrete street, then grass and then deep sand and something inbetween. Your muscles, your feet, your body does not move the same, even if you are healthy 
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| havingfun |
Do I dare jump in here?
I do not have a good grasp at physics. I am clumsy and not a good rider. God was good to me and gave me a horse willing to catch me when I start to fall off. I am comfortable enough to admit I don't understand half of this but am eager to learn. I'm fairly intelligent, my mind just doesn't grasp biomechanics well. I do know my horse and my horse knows me. I always told my farriers I don't know if they did a good job on my horse until I rode her. How she moved said it all. If she was relaxed and willing to move out they did good. If she was stiff and not wanting to move in her favorite trot, they screwed up. My horse is comfortable enough with me to tell me, no, not today. She knows I'll listen. And after 10 years I know when it is her feet or another issue, like a tummy ache or hormones are off. Lately it's been her feet and I'm trying to learn for myself because, since my farrier moved, I haven't been able to find a good one. Thanks for this thread and helping me understand a little better. |
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| Newfman |
I'd still like to see the Pat Reilly study you refer too. I have his reports, "Hoof Balance-an objective assesment- Part 1 and Part 2" on my desk, and it doesn't say anything about a toe first landing being ok.
The farriers job is to the horse owner, as the pit crew is to Nascar. Patch it up, make it work get me through the race. My job is just the opposite. If you want it fast and ready for the weekend, have a nice day, here is the card of a good farrier. My job is to get the feet back in good condition, barefoot and functioning properly. If they cannot get comfortable enough, then they need boots. If that isn't working, then, the farrier will make a shoe to get him comfortable. It's about the horse for me, not the next ride. It is a little more like a restoration body shop. You aren';t going to have it ready to go at the end of the day. You spent years screwing it up, now let's take time to try to straighten it out. I'd still like to know how toe first landing is mechanically or physiologically sound. |
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| calatar |
But when is enough, enough? If the horse is barefoot and under your care but is still not comfortable when is it time for shoes? |
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| Newfman |
Yeah, i know, i just couldn't leave it alone. Those feet are pretty sad. Contracted heels, flat soles, WLD and white line separation. The breakover is way too far forward, and there is plenty of room to bring it back. This looks like a foot that is maintained to the comfort and useability for the owner, not the horse. I seriously doubt this horse got this way barefoot.
Never said that, in fact I have been pretty vocal in the other direction. A big fat frog, is a sign of disuse. Just ask my big fat belgian with her big fat frogs. (And her lovely lateral heel first landing). Every one of my horses were hit with PAL this year. (Pasture associated laminitis) A 1 month drought followed by steady wet weather. The Clover and the grasses hit very high nitrite levels and the sugars were likely through the roof. They had been re-introduced to the pasture this spring gradually. 1 hour per day for two weeks, 2 hours per day after that. 2 hours is all they get. They went from spectacular feet, to flat and sore, very shortly after the rains started. Had they been long toed and underrun or shod, in other words, peripherally loading their hoof walls, their condition would likely have become very serious. As it was, we pulled them off pasture, and they recovered in a short time. The warmblood needed boots and pads for comfort for four days. So yes, it is a bit of a 'do over' for them, but their feet were in proper form, so this was an incident, instead of a catastrophe. I understand the Mustangs can go through this as well when they get in to the lush spring grasses. Yet, you don't see a bunch of foundered mustangs standing around. Hmm, I'm thinking there might be a connection! |
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| Newfman |
That is a discussion between me, the owner and the Vet. We look at the rads., the horse, make sure that the diet is up to snuff, the feet have had atleast a full cycle of growth, and then decide. It hasn't happened to me. . .yet. It did happen to a good friends horse. She is my hoof trimming counterpart, and was my mentor. She had a horse that had really nice feet. An old barbed wire accident messed up a heel bulb in such a way as to make booting, impractical and ineffective.
Every spring, her horse goes flat as a pancake. She needs to ride and boots won't work, so, her horse gets shod now, for spring, and will come back out of them in mid summer. Sounds like another green grass situation to me. It would be interesting to see, next year, if I keep my horses on hay all spring and in the dirt paddock, if we get to skip the pancake feet. Anyhow, the answer to your question. . .use your judgement. Shoes are a tool. If you need them, use them. I just think they are rediculously over used, and have ruined many a good hoof. They should be the last resort, not the first. When i see people all excited that their two year old mare is getting her first pair of shoes so she can ride circles in the prepared arena, I just want to smack them on the foot with a hammer. Idiots. |
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| Newfman |
was that subtle? It seemed subtle. Maybe that wasn't subtle. | ||||||||||||
| calatar |
Agree 100%. I hope I never have to shoe a horse but if I do, I would wait until they are fully mature. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I'll leave you with one last thought to ponder, explain to me please how a horse leaving the starting gate at a race, or a barrel racing (barefoot) horse lands heel first as it makes the start of it's run.
I'm playing nice as Carol has asked, but I don't see how this is not considered hugely insulting to me as a farrier or to many other farriers that I know. I certainly don't feel I'm "patching" anything up to get it to the races. I work with a farrier now, who LOVES horses and does the best that he can with what he is allowed to work with. As for me, I pick and choose who I work on as my conscious dictates, I want to see the horses happy. This includes the training, saddle fit and the whole horse.
Wow again, whom are you talking to and about. Many of my clients rescued horses from the track, or got someones used up jumper, etc. They haven't spent ANY time screwing it up. They just want a horse to ride that is sound and happy. Other clients want to compete, dressage, jumping, endurance. They put the well being of their horse as priority number one. Some of those horses get shoes, some are barefoot. It isn't I or the owner who dictates this, it is the horse. Some of my clients use boots but for many boots are not an option. NOT because they are lazy but because the boots don't get the job done.
I think I've hashed this out enough If you don't get my point our going back and forth about it will just get heated and that is counter productive to my goal. Getting people to recognize that they are no absolutes, and to understand what a truly physiologically correct hoof is... for each horse.
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| Kim Cassidy |
Which foot are you talking about? The Epona one I shared? If so, you are yet again making huge assumptions based on 3 photos and I think at the end you are calling me a liar
This horse did get this way barefoot. The owner puts her horses first, all of them were barefoot until she met me. Now 3 are in Epona's. First it was only one in Epona's and by the end of the first visit a second went into them. By my second visit a third did. She breeds on a very small basis (2 foals in the last 4 years) and does sport dressage with her Arabs. This foot proves my point exactly, trimming it any further back makes the horse very lame. Hence why she left the last barefoot person and contacted me. I think if you took more off this horse without protection he would be very lame. Look at how the back of the foot is collapsing, with the use of IM, glue and Epona's I've raised the angle without using an actual wedge pad. His knees used to be different heights, now they are the same. As Calatar asked, how long is enough before you give the horse a different approach? Also I've seen Mustangs with laminitis in THE WILD. If it has hooves it can get laminitis. I've seen deer with laminitis as well. These pesky absolutes really get in the way sometimes. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
I realize there are people who don't believe in EVER putting on shoes, but being a shoe advocate and never having a bad experience with shoes, these are times I consider shoeing. 1) When the horse needs more stability in a foot while a crack or wall grows out. The shoe would be used with epoxy to help make a stable wall. I know many vets recommend shoes for founder also, but I did have excellent luck with hoof casts, and believe these are probably a better treatment. 2) When the horse is in discomfort without shoes. Sometimes this can be managed with boots, but they are impractical 24/7 and in certain environments. 3) When you are taking the horse into rocky or abrasive environments that his feet aren't conditioned for. Yes, I've been with horses who do just fine barefoot on these trails. I've also been with horses who were in so much pain they were laying down. 4) When your use of the horse is so extensive that you 'wear the feet right off the horse." I've seen this in sand and on concrete, asphalt or gravel. When I only had one horse, I'd wear right through a 1/4" iron shoe in 4 weeks. No way would a hoof deal with that. For many people, there is the option of putting the horse in the pasture until his feet grow out and he's no longer sore. This is fine in the world of many a pleasure rider. It is not the world of the working or competition horse. I think the decision should always be based on ONE thing: What is best for the horse? I've seen horses that were shod for no good reason, and horses that were barefoot and sore, and should have been shod but for an owner who buys into the argument that shoes hurt a horse - or bought into it for the convenience ($$) of not having to put on shoes. I pointed out that the horse's feet were sore to one such owner, only to be told, 'She's faking it, she's fine." 
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| calatar |
If I had to shoe it would be because of 2.
In my experience a shoe is not necessary to stabilize a crack. Eclipse had shoes and a bad toe crack, shoes were pulled and with consistent balanced trimming, crack went away. There may be some cracks that would benefit but I think most don't need shoes. For rocky/abrasive terrain I am all for boots (and not all boots are created equally). I could never ride in Cavallos. Some horses don't do well in Gloves. If I had a horse that couldn't be booted and this was the only time I needed shoes then I may just be selective about my trails (this is possible where I live). If all the trails were rocky and boots with gaiters didn't work...then I'd do Glue Ons. If I am riding enough for 4 to happen then I'd be booting. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Excellent post Carol! | ||||||||||||
| Chablis |
Interesting thread. 
Well some of you may know that my barefoot horse had a resection done on his NF hoof (due to severe infection) a short while ago, and while both treating vets wanted to have shoes put on my horses front hooves (to stop the hoof expanding and making the resection/crack any bigger, plus you can't put only one shoes on...), my horse had had enough of both the farrier and vet and told them to leave. So my horse is not wearing shoes... My barefoot trimmer (who didn't cause the original problem) is still trimming my horses hooves and the crack/resection is growing out. I am continuing to treat the hoof with an anti-biotic cream (that is working like magic). Will be interesting to see what the vets think - they both intially recommended shoes while my horse recovers (and then I had the okay to remove them again). My horse is no longer lame either and is happily walking/trotting/cantering around.
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| Spitfire |
Just to point out here that people are supposed to land TOE first, NOT heel first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YhVN_YIUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE&feature=fvw A case of reverse "shoe-morphising"? |
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| Newfman |
Kind of funny Chablis, that is a time I wouldn't hesitate to shoe. Though I would consider casting, but casts don't last long and that could begin to feel like an endless growth cycle. Glad it is working out. How much wall was resected?
Carol, I agree and always have, sometimes you gotta' have 'em. As far as them not being destructive, I haven't seen that either. People talk about concussive foot injuries all the time. "It's the hoof pounding on a hard surface. . . ". Well, when you attach steel directly to the hoof, he is always on a hard surface. One of the first things to happen is the heels begin to run under. That force sends the whole foot forward. That is just typical and I have yet to see a shod horse not develop that over time. The worse part is, it is typically not given time and the attention needed to straighten out. You just make a new shoe to fit the latest distortion. That is the troubling part. Eventually you end up with such crap feet, that the only way the horse can be "sound" (again, using that term loosely), is to create another shoe, maybe a roller, or wedge or bar etc., etc. It becomes a viscious cycle. Have I failed to mention, you pretty well reduce and even eliminate hoof mechanism? How can that be good? Of course, there are always those that don't believe in hoof mechanism, but I just don't have the energy or time for that. I would have to question. . . well, whatever. I realize there is always the odd case. 'Well my horse has three legs, buck teeth and hemmorhoids' and a heart bar is the only way he can be comfortable. Fine. Whatever. At least if you are going to use that horses foot as an example, you might want to point out his issues along with the photo of the foot. Saves a lot of typing later. Generally speaking, since there are millions of horses and we can really only speak in general terms, horses are better off barefoot and properly maintained. That is a no brainer. So, getting back on topic. . . Have we determined that a heel first landing is the primary and proper hoof to ground initial contact point for normal, healthy four legged horses (of proper and equal leg length), in their normal gaits without various appliances or hoof pathologies, and not running in quicksand? Or, are we still believing in undisclosed research papers from well known researchers that supposedly say that toe first landings are cool? Not trying to be snarky here, but I've shown my cards. I call. |
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| Newfman |
That is an oxymoron. It is either physiologically correct, or it is made to be comfortable for the pathology the horse exhibits. Apples and oranges, and the toe first argument has come down to, it is ok because the horse has pathologies. I gaurantee you, toe first is additive to the crisis, not subtractive. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
What I hope has been determined is blanket statements should not be acceptable in the horse world. No a heel first landing in all gaits is neither desired or possible for all horses at all times regardless of healthy feet. Some heel first landings are exaggerated due to pain related to thin soles, for whatever reason and is a false sign of hoof health. People need to learn to recognize this. Some horses have perfectly healthy feet and land flat. If a healthy footed, healthy over all horse lands flat, it does not mean something is wrong and that "someone" needs to fix it. I did not say Pat Reilly's work was the answer to everything. I said "go check it out". So not sure where you are getting some of your statements from.
I'm assuming you mean referring and I am not hung up on anything. Do you understand my point when "referring" to barrel racers and/or race track horses. The front end is for pulling along, until the horse is going and then it is for landing. If a horse is pulling himself along, he won't be doing it heel first and he could have healthy feet. THAT is my point. The mechanics of a horse and why a heel first landing at every footfall could be impossible for some horses at certain gaits. Therefore if A leads to B, not all healthy feet land heel first all the time
Ahhhhh, now I understand where you are coming from. You haven't been doing this long enough, on enough horses to realize that some horses can not live without shoes. (not that this is on topic of heel first landings )
There are many owners who have tried everything, correct diet, no grass, "exercise", rest, pads, boots, supplements, and this and that and their horses don't get better. Some are not even comfortable standing around in their pastures. After years of trying they come to realize that barefoot is not all what is BEST for the horse. Yes I'll give you that there are many types of horse owners. Some want a motorcycle and are happy to put it in the shop to get it to work and not care how hard they use it. Many types of horse owners what ribbons or glory or MONEY from their horse and will do anything to get it. But since this forum is called About the Horse, I'm going to say most reading it here are not that type of horse owner.
One more time Newman, I did not say that entirely. I've explained above how toe first landings are the only possible option for a being that functions on 4 legs. I did not say toe first landings are desired in all gaits. Short video of a barefoot sound horse (over all terrain) landing flat! Not heel first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo0uwbbyZRQ |
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| Clarissa |
Somewhere I heard/saw about new research that is showing that barefoot runners land toe first & when running shoes were made to accommodate that gait, the runners actually got better. Maybe this was it. So the running world is in a state of upheaval because some now think heel first is not as good as first thought. I know when I was in the army I ran better when allowed to wear thin soft shoes & I ran on the balls of my feet landing on the outside edge first. I am not a natural runner but could keep my times within normal range when running like that. If I was forced to wear my army running shoes or even my $200 Assics I was slow & lame after.
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| Chablis |
I felt the same way, Newfman. Too bad my horse didn't feel the same way.  Neither the farrier or vets were too concerned in the end about the lack of shoes. Having said that, being winter here right now, the ground is pretty soft.
I've got some piccies of the resection on the computer - will see if I can upload them today. The resection went about half way up hoof. |
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| AlythLong |
From studying my own action I have come to the following conclusions.
When walking purposefully, striding out, going somewhere I land heel first and roll FORWARD onto the ball of my foot - no backward movement whatsoever....... When running (not as an athlete, just to get from A to B as fast as I can!!) I am on the balls of my feet and my heel doesn't touch the ground. Again no backward movement...... In my opinion those are the 2 natural human gaits. However horses are not made like humans and their movment is different. You can only compare the 2 in a very general way. I definitely do not like to see toe first landings. In every case that I can remember toe first landings tell me that the horse is sore and not moving well. In every case where I have been struck by good movement the heel has landed first at walk and trot at least. This means all the horse is always in FORWARD movement..... I won't bore you with my philosophies, but I do feel that most people who shoe, whether all the time or part of the time, haven't considered hoof mechanism or torque. As a child my horses were shod all the time. That was the normal thing to do. Everyone did it so it must be right yes??? When my children were riding I couldn't afford to have them shod so the ponies were ridden all over the place barefoot, and only needed trimming once a year - if then. And the farrier didn't like trimming them cos their hooves were "too hard"!!!!!! Then I started to learn about Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey, Strasser and others. And I learned so much. I learned about hoof mechanism. I learned about the digital cushion. I learned about bars and sole and callus!!!!! Now there is no way I will nail shoes to a hoof. If a hoof needs protection for some special event I will boot them. If the horse is sore without shoes the same problem is there when shoes are put on - you just can't see it. Like a bandage over a cut. In the same way I will not put a bit into a horses mouth. If you haven't got "control" or communication without a bit - why would you think you have more with one? That is my opinion and it will take a bolt of lightning from above to make me change my mind!!!! Alyth |
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| Newfman |
Alyth,
The lack of active lightening strikes across my computer, tell me you may be on to something. You are absolutely correct in your statement about comparing human feet to horse. I try to keep it 'general' but sometimes it gets molded into something a bit more literal. Humans, however they are supposed to land, do so onto a padded boney surface. We have lots of bones covered by muscle, fat, and skin of varying degrees of toughness. We have 5 toes, i.e. 5 sets of phalanges. Yes, there are the exceptions, but once again, I'm generalizing. We don't "typically" land on our toes. We have our tarsals and metatarsals and a few others that we actually walk on. We walk on our padded bones. Horses only have one toe. The whole hoof capsule is just a big toe cover. All the attachments to the toe bone, (the coffin bone, third and distal phalange) are designed to keep the horse from applying pressure directly to the coffin bone. It is encased, not just covered by corium and laminae. Like cupping your dogs paw snuggly in your hands, it is surrounded, protected and secure. There are no muscles in the hoof. The manipulation of the hoof is very unlike our feet, in that there are no muscles in the foot doing anything, where as we have tremendous movement and strength in our feet. We can curl our toes or cup our feet for protection from hot or rough surfaces. When a horses foot is down. . .it's down. Their's operates mluch more like a marionette. Infact, exactly like a marionette. There is a tremendous amount of things happening inside the foot to protect it and keep it functioning properly. Blood flow, and the direction of bloodflow, and the use of blood flow being another part of the equation. The "hydraulic cushion" effect. My own analysis of available scientific research, and observations, tells me that there really is only one way the hoof should land through it's ground contact cycle, that actually works with the known and proven design as a principal "primary" hoof to ground landing sequence. Lateral heel first. Infact, in my opinion, for what it is worth, Lateral Heel (shared with the frog of course) to the Lateral quarter, around the toe and the remainder just lies down last. I call it the circumfrencial hoof landing sequence. Is it proven? Absolutely not. But it works, and makes the peices of the puzzle fit together quite nicely, no other sequence does. I have also only seen it on barefoot horses, that have good feet, or pretty healthy feet. Any caudal hoof discomfort, and they come right out of it. I also think that it is why horses run on a lead, i.e. left lead or right lead. All non-one toed four legged mammals do not run on a lead, they pull their self forward with both fronts and their front feet tend to both go between their hind legs. Like a dog, a jaguar a cow or a giraffe. They all have multiple toes. Horses do not. |
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| Clarissa |
mmmm I would love to agree but I always will have this image of my beautiful black stallion prancing around, burned into my brain.
Nebula used to prance around for visiting mares as you can imagine. The ground was hard clay that made a hollow sound & Nebula had big round deeply concave feet. It was easy to tell how he was stepping. Heel first landings sounded with a very quick 2 beat…ta dum, ta dum, whereas when he really got excited he got up on his toes & there was very little sound at all like as though he was floating. He never stayed on his toes for long, maybe just several steps, but it was sheer poetry watching his high stepping prance with fully arched neck, flaring nostrils below a white face covered by a full length forelock, glossy black coat glistening in the sun, long flowing mane billowing out & muscles rippling as he floated through the air. In this photo below his mane & forelock were pulled so they don't get caught in his harness because he was in work & it was summer so no feathers. He was 17.5hh 
I miss him a lot. But he definitely did prance a high steeping, collected trot, almost piaffe….more like passage on his toes by his own volition. |
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| Newfman |
Yup, like I said, "principal, primary." Not just for a moment. Tthe actual landing sequence I am talking about, takes awhile to learn and train the eye to see. It is very quick. Much easier with a high speed camera. Sound draft horses are easy, as they have big feet and a lumbering pace. Unfortunately, they usually have big nasty platter feet, and are a mess, so often times they do not display anything good. Besides, as nobody has ever seemed to have noticed it or talked or written about it, I seriously doubt anyone would have even thought to look. If people can let a toe first landing go un-noticed for years, as this is incredibly difficult to see, i seriously doubt they would pick it out. Not something I would expect you to have in your memories. I have shown people that their horse does it, and once they reconize it, they are amazed. Kind of funny actually. Once you learn to recognize it, then you see it a lot. Like I said, it is just my hoof landing sequence theory, not asking you to buy it. . .or believe it. The lateral heel first part, that is pretty well accepted though. Except by some. . .of course. Very nice looking horse by the way. Sorry for your loss. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Almost all walking animals land lateral to medial, who said that isn't the case?
You STATED at the very beginning of one thread or another all horses SHOULD (if they are healthy) land heel first at all gaits over all terrain. I see now you are acknowledging that at certain instances toe first is all that is possible. This has been my point, glad you finally admit it 
I have some coffin bones in my possesion of a horse that has the medial side flared and the lateral side jammed. He did not land lateral to medial, hence why we can't say ALL horses land lateral/medial. Again, those pesky absolutes 
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| Newfman |
The easiest thing to do is watch horses walk toward you on a firm surface, not in the grass where the foot dissapears. Squat down and watch them land their foot, and how it flows down on to the ground. They must be barefoot, good hoofwall connection and free of caudal hoof discomfort and thrush.
We should be watching like this on occasion anyways. Regardless of how they are landing. This is a very important indicator of hoof health. |
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| AlythLong |
I think different gaits have different amounts of "toe/heel/balance".
When I am dancing (aka prancing!!) I am "on my toes" and my heels are always off the ground. I guess the horse prancing (I know Arabs prance exteremely well!) is similar. I would imagine piaffe and passage could be classed with this!!! But this is not toe first then heel landing. At least it is not imo!!! When walking I use the whole foot (hoof!) from heel to toe in a forward movement, not the reverse. Also the horse with good movement does this. Galloping, the 4 beat pace, would probably/possibly mean a "flat foot" landing as the speed is much greater and there could not be much time for the "rollover". I will have to study the gallop in slow motion before making more comments on this. What I do know is that the horse needs a healthy, cushioned digital cushion and frog to enable him to have this fantastic flowing movement. Alyth |
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| Newfman |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMi462PUMs
The track is a little deep, but there it is. Speed isn't an issue IMO, infact, good hoof landing and proper hoof mechanism is even more important at speed. Much greater demand for oxygenated blood, much higher risk of ischemia leading to foot soreness with poor hoof form, and improper hoof landing sequence. Think, warm foot, cold foot. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
That horse is landing flat
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| Kim Cassidy |
What if a horse can't ever achieve that? I find I can get this on horses that don't have healthy structures utilizing Impression Material and Epona's
Fantastic flowing movement, yup, but not always heel first
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| calatar |
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| Newfman |
Many older horses that never had a chance to properly develop a fibrocartilage type of digital cushion, due to inneffective trimming, early shoeing, restricted movement (excess stalling and tiny "paddocks") or a combination of the above, may never be able to make the change.
The digital cushion in a young horse starts out as a hyaline type of cartilage. As the feet develop, they should become a fibro-cartilage. If this is prevented by the means aforementioned, at a certain point, it isn't likely to happen. In my opinion, this would make the horse more susceptible to caudal hoof discomfort, therefore will tend to avoid heel first landing. That is still a problem, and it will still set the horse up for injury to the pastern/foot ligaments, navicular bone, anterior distal rim of the coffin bone (i.e. bone resorption) and DDFT issues. With such a horse, it is important to have xrays taken and see to what extent the damage is that already has been done. Per affected hoof- 1 Lateral, one normal DP, one 60 degree DPPD, and one Navicular Skyline. If views of the navicular show bone remodeling to the cortical layer and or degenerative issues with the cartilage of the navicular (enthesiophytes) I would shoot obloques to project out the navicular bone, one Lateromedial, and one mediolateral oblique. At that point, you deal with the diagnosis. |
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| Newfman |
Guess again Clarissa. You have to look at the approach angle of the dorsal wall, as the sole, is buried in the soft sand. | ||||||||||||
| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Things may be different where you all live, but my horses hooves change dramatically with the weather. In the winter, they hydrate and are nice, healthy feet with good flexibility. In the summer they dry out and get bone hard and dry. You wouldn't consider them 'healthy' but they are all the same in this area late in the summer.
I also have several horses that are short strided...it's the breed. I don't see them landing heel first, but flat footed. I'm assuming they're sound. They're pretty wimpy horses and pretty much let me know if they are 'off' at all. Baby was 'bucking' one day - because a grasshopper landed on her, and Bruiser 'bucks' the starlings off his back. Wimps. 
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| Kim Cassidy |
You forgot one. GENETICS!!! Some horses are NOT born perfect, just like some humans are not born perfect, (unlike myself )
All humans should be born with the ability to hear, but some aren't. They have hereditary deafness. I have twin sisters and a brother who are completely deaf, born that way. When my brother was born, my parents were told it was THEIR fault. My mother allowed herself to be around someone with measles and that is what caused. Then 7 years later she gave birth to identical twins and they too were deaf. My parents don't take what they are told as gospel so started doing research. Turns out the people preaching that it was because they had done something wrong, were well, wrong! No matter what they did genetics played a role. Guess what, my deaf brother has 3 deaf kids, one twin has 2 deaf kids and the other twin has 2 deaf kids and 1 hearing. Genetics. So that little story has been put up to illustrate that no matter what is done as a foal you can still have weak feet. Look to the breeders not the farriers and owners.
How will this show the health of the Digital Cushion? My horse is NOT sound barefoot, no matter what I've done. I have radiographs and it except for a slight ski tip from my years of mucking with the barefoot only mindset the caudal portion of his foot looks perfect. Do you believe that you can rebuild the digital cushion? If not how do you plan on keeping a horse moving soundly without a faux DC? |
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| Newfman |
I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as the rest, that puts us back to the three legged, buck toothed horse with hemorhoids. There is always an exception. There is not enough time in the year, to write down all the variants from N-O-R-M-A-L. |
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| Newfman |
Oh, and that proliferation at the toe thing you were talking about....is exactly the reason you need your horse landing properly!
That isn't a pimple. It isn't cosmetic. That is a serious condition, and if you think that is all that the xrays showed, I beg to differ. I'd be more than happy to point it out. At least now i know the horse doesn't have healthy feet, and that is the reason he doesn't land correctly. Funny how that works out. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I have no idea what you are talking about. |
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| Newfman |
Sigh...doesn't matter.
Moving on. . . |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Come on Newman, which horse and topic are you talking about? Why would you move on? I'm curious, sincerely so, to find out what you meant. Each post is very cryptic. I don't remember typing the words "proliferation at the toe" so can you see where my confusion would arise. If are talking about Finnegan, please post which photos you mean so I can discuss it. Hopefully someone watching will learn something new
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| Newfman |
You said the ski jump toe. That is a proliferative response. Wolff's law. The bones are always modeling, or remodeling. The coffin bone isn't flexible, it doesn't 'bend' up. It is remodeling in response to forces being applied. That is a bad thing. Can be quite painful as well. Those xrays that i listed are to show everything in the foot, including the digital cushion. No, you cannot tell what the quality of the digital cushion cartilage is though. If your horse presents with a "ski jump" tip to itscoffin bone, there are a few more rads that should have been shot, no questions asked. That horse was in trouble. Hopefully, what needed to be done, was done and it is not a growing issue. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
Okay so now I understand you are talking about Finn's feet. First yes the bones react to the forces placed upon it, the distal border the coffin bone remodeled due to the founder. Actually it was there when I got my first set of radiographs back in June of 2003. I'm unsure how you would define that as "a proliferation at the toe thing." I most certainly did not call it that.
Who said anything about it being cosmetic or a pimple, my oh my the words you choose to use sure do make me smile. Thanks
Of course he doesn't have healthy feet, if he did he wouldn't need shoes to just stand around in his pasture or paddock. He does have healthy feet when the Epona's are on, hence why I can finally ride a sound horse. Maybe a year or two out here in the desert with no moisture will make all the difference and he will eventually be happy "naked". Who knows, I certainly don't care as long as he is happy, that is what matters most to me.
Now you mentioned if that is all I think the xrays showed... well I can read a lot from them, I've had years of practice and years of training. Plus I live with the horse. But I'd love to hear what you think, please share, it will be beneficial to all of us.
You are so funny! I'm wondering if you missed all the times that I wrote that my shod horse lands heel first and that my barefoot horse lands flat. Finn has landed heel first for years and years. Problem is most of that time it was an exaggerated landing to get the weight off the distal edge of his pedal bone. It was a Toe Flick, which is something we don't want to see. Now when you say exactly the reason I need my horse landing properly are you implying that a heel first landing will eliminate the ski tip? I know what all the "take the weight off the tip of my pedal bone" did to the caudal (rear) portion of his foot, the xrays show that. But I'll wait to see what you have to say after you share your thoughts on the rad's. BTW, the horse who lands flat is a 4yo off the range BLM Mustang :D :D Self trimming and woo howdy is he sound |
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| Newfman |
...and the rads? | ||||||||||||
| AlythLong |
Kim - are your "barefoot horse" and "shod horse" 2 different horses? If so we are talking about 2 different sets of hooves? Alyth | ||||||||||||
| Kim Cassidy |
Yes, Finn (whole story with photos and rads on my website) is currently shod and lands heel first when walking. The mustang, no name yet, lands flat. I have photos of his feet but that will be an article on my site. He came to me with NO hoofcare, just self trimming and so far I've done nothing but pony him from Finn to trim and what he is doing is amazing. (I will confess to removing some wicked material on one foot only and only 2 nips). The pictures are very very cool. |
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| Chablis |
Forgot to load the piccies  but found a photo showing the resection that I put in my other thread (when we thought we would have to have my gelding PTS). The piccie of the resection is on the 3rd page.
If anyone is interested, I can start a new thread and post progress? http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic4170-30.php |
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| Newfman |
Horses will adjust the hoof to ground impact point, by the means of a "toe flick". It is a function of physics. An object in motion, tends to stay in motion. If they are real tight in the pastern, they can greatly reduce this, but I think the outward signs in movement would be obvious, as well as disturbing.
In a relaxed gait, tension is removed in the pastern/fetlock, as the horse reaches forward in stride. The better the reach, the more pronounced the "flick" is. Home experiment: Stand with hour arms at your side. Tighten the muscles and tendons in your wrist and hand, then smoothly, but forcefully, swing your arm forward to about chest high and stop it there. Note, no significant hand "flick". Do the same thing with the muscles and tendons in your hand relaxed. Hand flick? Why, yes! It is just simple physics. This is why a 185 pound, 5'9" Golf pro can easily drive a golf ball 300+ yards, and a six foot 220 pound hacker can't. The weekend hacker that needs training, typically has a bad grip, and excess tension in his hands and wrists. The Pro, squeezes only with the pinky and ring finger of his left hand (if right handed) and the other fingers are totally relaxed. This allows there to be soft supple wrists, and through impact, centrifugal force "FLICKS" the hands through impact, accelerating the club head by gravity, not brute force. Even the golf pro can't do this when he has carpal tunnel, tendonitis, bone spurs, or arthritis. Funny, a horse with active ringbone, navicular, poor digital cushion development, thrush, and or excess or developmental side bone has trouble with free relaxed movement as well. Anxiety about the upcomming impact of the hoof landing? Maybe. The horse does have a "flick" and it is what initiates that final little 'float phase' just before touch down. People pay a lot of money for horses that display this naturally. Is that free floating movement not one of the primary things you look for when selecting a high dollar dressage prospect? Is it not that little flick/float moment that we want to see in all three gaits in a high dollar dressage prospect? It is that point, based on his level of comfort, and or irregularities in terrain, that he makes the final adjustments to how the hoof will strike the ground. Will it 'stab' the ground toe first? Will it plop down flat like a belly flop? Or will it roll down, from heel to toe? At the bottom of the post are a variety of slow-mo. vids. for you to watch. Think about the blood flow in the hoof and hoof mechanism. Does the hoof landing sequence support a circular blood flow in the hoof? Or does it support a vertical, or a combination of vertical and front to back flow. Because, the vessles aren't designed for that. As each hoof makes its initial contact with the ground, that becomes the point at which the blood inside the hoof, that surrounds the inner lining of the hoof wall and sole, will make its initial departure from its present position , and establish the direction of flow. Home experiment: Use your index finger and thumb of one hand, to grasp the index finger of your other hand, right at the base (at the knuckle). Squeeze firmly and quicly pull and slide your grasp towards your finger tip. Sort of like milking a cow, but with less finess. You should feel the blood in your finger rush towards your finger tip. The finger tip becomes a dam. You can feel the pressure build. Do that hard and fast enough, like hitting your finger with a hammer, and the blood will squeeze out through your pores! Liquids, do not like to compress. That is why hydraulic mining works. Now do the reverse. There is no sense of pressure build. The blood has a place to go. Its natural direction for venous return. The arrangement of blood vessles in the hoof travel in a circular direction around the hoof. Around the 'round' hoof. There is not enough veins going vertically up the hoof wall to accept and process the amount of blood that comes at it in a toe first landing. That initial wave of blood flow, like you felt in your finger. The blood flow from that initial point of impact, would therefore, have to 'split' medially, and laterally. Medially is the correct direction, as the valves in the caudal region of the hoof are "one-way" valves. So blood flows in that direction, goes back up the leg (venous return) and can't come back down, i.e. reprofusion. The blood that is forced back to the lateral aspect of the foot, is traveling the wrong way. Against the flow of incoming nutrient rich blood. So, there are some things to consider when watching the hoof in action. Use your minds eye, and picture the inside of the foot as you watch these various horses, and their various foot falls. You decide what appears healthy and what doesn't. Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOnd5t9k4VA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoQa_udhvs8&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REReSZKMnkg&feature=related My personal favs. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP...rom=PL&playnext=1&index=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgEzYrTEBw&feature=related *edited for clarity |
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| Kim Cassidy |
I took my mustang for a hand walk today, he is no where near ready for riding, so we go for walks through the neighborhood.
Today I took a few pix of his footprints as I thought it pertains to this discussion. It relates to hoof mechanism as well. I walk on dirt roads and in the desert so have some soft sandy terrain and some hard packed terrain. I took some pix of his left front foot print in both soft sand and hard. I've attached them. Look at how the foot "loads" depending on the terrain. Soft terrain 
Hard terrain 
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| Newfman |
Your photos, while quite lovely, represent an entire event, caught in a moment.
Had you stopped your horse from finishing his step, right at the point that his hoof made its initial first contact, then you could have photographed that and caught the point appropriate for the topic. The step consists of; initial contact, rollment, COP, and unrollment to flight. In a healthy barefoot anyways. Of course you can't get that with metal shoes. It is more of a touch to smack down sort of thing. No rollment phase. So you would have Initial contact, COP, tip up to departure. Nice photos, I like the low sun angle used as a rake light. |
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| Newfman |
Since we seem to be referred to Pat's pressure testing (1) , I thought I would add this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vB7w_aFcyo&NR=1
It might be easier to hit the play pause button in rapid succession so as to get a more 'slow motion' read on the graphic display. I also reccomend you use 'full screen mode' while viewing. That is...at the bottom of the video screen on the right side of the tool bar, there is a box with four arrows pointing at the corners. Click on that. This horse is shod. We do not know if there are any internal foot pathologies. In my email exchanges with Pat last year, I did not get the inclination that he was radiographing horses feet first, so as to RO any internal pathologies, that may influence the way the hoof lands and goes through the various phases of contact to flight. Regardless, lets take a look at the video I linked. For those who do not know what they are looking at. Pat has affixed a pressure sensitive pad between a flat shoe and the horses hoof. The pad senses pressure and transmits the data to a computer for analysis. It is a real time recording of the pressures applied to the shoe during the hoof landing sequence, The darker the color, the greater the concentration of weight, at that particular moment in time. The graph below it is sync'd to the upper animation and the video on the right. It shows ten full hoof landing events of the left front foot, The bottom flat line represents when the hoof is airborne. At that initial point, when the line goes verticle, is the moment the shoe touches the ground. The upper animation, tells you what part of the shoe is making contact, and the color shows the intensity of weight being applied. The peak of the graph, represents COP. Cop is center of presure. Peak load. From there, it enters an unrollment phase, which is pretty abrubt in a shod hoof. Then it all dissapears again as the foot re-enters flight phase. The little squiggle line inside the animation of the hoof, is similar o the Force vs Time chart. So, try to manipulate the little cursor so that the bottom of the animation chart, on the frame counter reads 237 frames out of 1540. Give or take a frame. Pause it there. Lets apply this to my previously mentioned "Circumflex Hoof Landing Sequence" This frame shows the horse is landing, with an initial contact at....? Correct, it is a right lateral hoof landing, a.k.a, right lateral heel first landing. Why the animation says left on it is beyond me. Maybe it is in reference to the monitor, since you can flip these images with a mouse, you don't want to get lost.. The pressure pad is obviously on the horses Right Front. Rapidly clicking pause play pause play etc. Note how the pressure and contact travel around the hoof wall towards the toe. It is following the 'flow' line of the Circumflex Vein, located around the peripheral distal edge of the coffin bone. Interesting. Then what happens. The shoe has limited flexibility. Yup, it snaps (leverages) the right side of the hoof down to the ground. Circumflexus interuptus. That was a little humor. Ok, very little. regardless, there you have it, and you can see it. Had this been a healthy barefoot horse, you should have seen the weight travel around the toe, to the area in the vicinity of the medial quarter and even to the medial quarter heel range before reaching COP. Because it follows the path of the Circumflex Vein, I named this hoof to ground sequence the "Circumflex Hoof Landing Sequence". The blood flow in this hoof "naturally" and appropriately, follows this path and pattern, up until the point that the shoe interfered.
Thank you Pat! (1) Pat Reilly, Chief of Farriery Services, New Bolton Center, University of Pennsylvania, Shcool of Veterinary Medicine. |
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| Newfman |
A HOOF LANDING THEORYSorry for the odd formatting. It wouldn't copy from the pdf.doc and it rearranged a little when brought from windows office. The references are worth reading, and taking the time to understand.Why Horses Do not Run Like Dogs. . . A different look at hoof to ground contact. Dennis Manske May 07,2009 © 2009 INTRODUCTION There is a continuous search for answers to the questions that are repeated with each new generation of horse owner, enthusiast, farrier, trimmer, doctor and researcher. How does the hoof really work? Do we shoe it or not? How should it be shaped? What causes lameness? How do we prevent it? The list goes on. To begin to find answers to these questions, researchers, scientists and doctors quickly figured out that it is important to understand how the hoof works, and the results of those studies culminate into what we now call, the hoof mechanism. Thankfully, due to the extraordinary efforts of these people, we have moved forward in our understanding of how to better set the equine hoof up for increased performance, comfort, and health. The other thing we have learned about hoof mechanism, is that the flexibility of the hoof allows it to act like a pump for blood, in a similar fashion to the heart. Expansion and contraction of the hoof wall create a pumping action similar to the heart and strategically located valves in the foot’s blood veins prevent reprofusion and ensure venous return. Therefore, it is my belief that freedom of movement is one of the single most important elements (if there can be just one) in healthy hoof growth. Movement is what I want to attract attention to. In particular, foot fall; as it pertains to the 'initial' point of contact, the rollment and unrollment of the hoof during its weight bearing phase of locomotion. It has been accepted for many years that a 'heel first' landing is the proper means of initial ground contact of the equine hoof. With the advent of high speed cameras and video, as well as the ability to study foot falls with pressure sensitive plates that record the pressure data electronically, researchers have taken it one step further and have realized that the initial contact is not just heel first. According to M.C.V. Van Heel (et al) (1) in an article printed in Equine Veterinary Journal (2004) 36 ( 778-782;
“Lateral asymmetrical landing is the most common in the front feet and by far the predominant way of landing in the hind feet of Warmblood horses. Lateral landing should therefore be regarded as the physiological standard for these horses, rather than symmetrical landing.” http://www.evj.co.uk/archive/downloads/EVJ04_36_778_782.pdf The researchers did an incredible job of demonstrating the initial contact point in the foot fall. They provided evidence of what happens at the initial point of contact and showed conclusive evidence of how trimming affects the length of time the foot remains on the ground at the Center of Pressure (COP). Unfortunately, the part that I need now is the part that is not included in that report. What takes place between the initial point of contact, and the moment that hoof is at the COP point? That is where we begin. It seems to be accepted that the frog acts like a hinge and the hoof wall expands and contracts creating a pumping action, and that, contributes greatly to the flow of blood through the foot. I am going to have to dispute that, just a little. I have no problem resigning my self to the fact that a lateral asymmetrical landing is the ‘primary’ means of landing. In fact, once I accepted this, I started looking for it in every horse I observed moving. Those that had apparently ‘normal’ strides and feet, certainly did exactly that. (That observation did not, of course, include lame horses or long toed horses with toe first impacts.) Something about this bothered me though. I read and researched everything I could find. There was one question that I could not find an answer to because, apparently, nobody was asking it. Why? Can anybody come up with one good example of a situation where nature did anything, for no reason at all? So, horses land laterally asymmetrically, and that has been proven, most people accept that and yet, nobody says. . .isn’t that just a little weird? I believe I may have a possible answer. It appears that, now that we have accepted that the lateral heel lands first, as a primary means of initial ground contact, that it stands to reason that the medial heel is the next point of contact and the remainder of the foot completes the landing by rolling down evenly from heel to toe. Therefore, after a momentary pause, the foot then unrolls evenly from heel to toe again to take to the flight phase. It is my contention that this is not entirely correct. I plan to provide enough evidence to support an alternative idea, and hopefully create enough curiosity for researchers to take it to the next level and absolutely prove or disprove the theory. If it is proven true, I believe it could significantly increase the understanding and affect treatment of some of the more elusive lameness issues, and may even affect how many of us still think of shoes. It is my belief, that in a normal, ‘primary’ foot fall (hoof landing) the lateral heel does in fact impact first, but, the hoof very quickly rolls down along the hoof wall in the following order: lateral heel, lateral quarter, toe, medial quarter, medial heel at which point it has reached the center of pressure (COP) and then unrolls evenly (mediolaterally) from heel to toe. For the sake of simplicity and ease of reference, as well as a lack of a better term, I will refer to this as circumflex rollment or ground contact(engagement), as it pertains the rolling type moment that happens as the hoof wall engages the ground. It is similar to the final revolutions of a quarter being spun on its edge on the counter top, just before it comes to a complete stop. I have observed this personally, and it make sense, once you understand this one point. . .Nature doesn’t do anything without a purpose! BY DESIGN Imagine for a moment that you are hammering a spike into the hard ground with a heavy mallet or sledge hammer. If you are real good and can hit that spike squarely in the middle with each blow, the top of the spike will mushroom and curl (flare) evenly around the circumference of the top of the spike. Should you stand just slightly too far from the spike, you will hit it off center and create a flared edge at the point closest to you. It is the same for repetitive blows to any edge of the spike. Now look at the typical horse hoof. When viewed from the heels or from the toes, we notice that the angle of the hoof wall in the medial heel/quarter area is steeper than its opposing lateral side, in other words, hoof walls tends to be more vertical on the medial side than the lateral side. When the hoof walls flare from insufficient trimming, it tends to flare more on the lateral side than the medial side. Has anyone thought to ask, why? Think about the lateral heel landing and following ‘circumflex ground engagement’ and compare that to the repetitive ‘off-center’ blows of the hammer. See a correlation? If the primary landing contact point is the lateral side, and the hoof wall is continuously getting pounded there, does it not stand to reason that that side would ‘flare’ out more than the medial side? Of course it does, but why would that be necessary to begin with? Stability for one. That lower angle in the hoof wall helps to act as a little leverage or brace for lateral stability. How many times have we stepped wrong and rolled over the lateral side of our foot only to sprain or strain our ankle? Horses can’t afford this if they don’t want to be Coyote bait, yet they place tremendous side-loads on their feet. So, one might say they are shaped like that to act as a wedge or brace for lateral stability. Then, does that mean that they land lateral heel first to create this ‘lateral brace’? Maybe in part, but that seems like quite a process, and why not just provide horses with lateral wall flare at birth and call it good? Would that not still be just as effective? An internet search (Google- Hoof mechanism on live horse video) or this link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPipjsRep9U will provide you with some incredible high speed video of the foot fall of a horse. If you carefully study that one second at the beginning, you can start to see the circumflex rollment I am referring to, followed by a nice even unrollment. Remarkable footage provided by www.naturhov.dk . Now study it again and this time, watch the skin area around the pastern, just above the coronary band. Note how it travels in a circular pattern around the pastern in the same direction and at the same time as the hoof wall, in the fashion I have described in ’circumflex rollment’. If the horse were to land symmetrically on his heels, as it does in the video of this shod horse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0 , that skin would replicate that ground contact pattern by the ’wave’ of skin launching forward on both sides (medially and laterally) and it would dissipate at the dorsal aspect of the pastern. A toe first landing will have the opposite effect and a flatfoot landing would have a fairly confused response to that impact, like a belly flop off a diving board; uncomfortable for so many reasons. After watching this video, I started to watch and really concentrate on my own horses foot falls. Observing my 4 year old RPSI Warmblood, I could train myself to see his lateral heel first landing, but his little feet and quick action made it impossible for me to truly see the remainder of the landing action at first. My 12 year old American Belgian mare on the other hand, as well as my 5 year old Brabant mare provided for a slower and ’enlarged’ view of the hoof action. The American Belgian in particular was certainly providing a great display of circumflex ground engagement, and after much study, was relatively easy to see. Noow that I have better trained my eye, I can see the Warmblood perform the same ground contact manuver. Again, I have accepted the evidence, but the same question still surfaces. . .why? What purpose does it serve? BLOODFLOW In a study performed by P.C. Mishra and D.H. Leach; Extrinsic and Intrinsic Veins of the Equine Hoof Wall (J. Anat. [1983], 136, 3, pp. 543-560) Mishra (et al) provides an uncanny view and narrative of the veins of the equine hoof. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1171900 (see attached if this is a printed doc.) In short, blood is evacuated from the hoof via the medial and lateral Proper Digital Veins which are caudally situated in the hoof. “In the heel regions this venous drainage network is supplemented by tributaries of the caudal hoof vein, independent superficial vein and anastomotic branches from the circumflex vein to the inner venous plexus. Because of this supplementary venous return the heel region is apparently better drained than other areas of the hoof wall. The wall corium is drained distally by the circumflex vein.” Consider this; as the foot initially touches the ground, and begins the rollment phase of ground contact, it creates a tremendous amount of force within the blood veins. Like milking the teat of a cow except much greater force. The blood is forced through the lumen to some distant point by path of least resistance. Basic fluid dynamics. We know from Mishra’s studies and diagrams, there is not enough venous plexus within the dorsal aspect of the hoof to handle rapid evacuation of such a large amount of blood in its entirety. The blood is virtually milked around the hoof so that, for the most part, it travels generally from lateral heel, to toe, to medial heel. Note how I said “around” the hoof. You can imagine it as a wave of blood flow, just as the wave of skin around the pastern traveled in the video you just viewed. It is certainly capable of the reverse of that direction, but we will keep this point as ’Primary’ foot fall. Until the point of initial ground contact, the complex of blood in the foot is relatively static. An exchange of Oxygen, CO2, nutrients and waste products is taking place in the capillaries and that blood is about to be rapidly exchanged for fresher product. Regardless of the point on the foot that initiates contact and initial weight bearing, there is going to be an explosive event of activity in that region as it pertains to blood flow. Squeeze your fingertip and watch how quickly the capillaries empty. Hit your finger with a hammer and see if some of that blood manages to exit through the capillary wall. That is because the event was greater than the amount of space needed to evacuate blood under that much pressure. Imagine a 1500 pound horse running in excess of 20 miles per hour landing with an initial impact on a single lateral heel. That is effectively an explosive event. So, take a moment now to actually think about a real ‘explosive’ event. Move your imaginations off of the horse for a moment. If you consider a tall building slated for demolition, and the explosives crew only put the dynamite in the basement, what would happen? The initial location of the blast (the epicenter) would be devastated because the amount of energy created by the blast exceeds the ability of the basement to vent it. Interior walls would blow out, doors would blow out, as well as a floor or two above the basement. This energy would begin to weaken, as it travels further from the epicenter, until the remaining hallways, elevator shafts and air ducts can handle the evacuation of the remainder of the energy, to be finished up with, say, the finale venting being ejected from the roof top. The demolition of course would be a failure, but it can, theoretically, teach us a bit about the equine foot. In proper foot fall, at the moment the lateral heel hits the ground, an epicenter of energy (blood) is disbursed. This, as we know, acts as an hydraulic cushion and reduces concussive shock. Fortunately, that section of hoof empties into the Lateral Proper Digital Vein which can handle this sudden surge of high velocity, high volume blood flow. The energy is rapidly dissipated proximally by having an appropriate space for the blood to travel. Valves in the Proper Digital Vein prevent reperfusion. There is still a lot more foot to fall and a lot more blood to move. In the example of ‘circumflex ground engagement’ (hoping a better term will someday be created) the force being applied to the blood within the veins will create a wave like moment, and a circular flow of blood with the majority of it being dumped into the Medial Primary Proper Digital Vein with the Circumflex and Coronary Veins playing a major roll. Mishra (et al) Provides wonderful diagrams in the above link to the research paper (Extrinsic and Intrinsic Veins. . .) and you can get a good understanding of this by studying those diagrams and applying this theory. It is my belief that, this is the Primary proper foot fall action and the reason for it. If the hoof should land bilaterally heel first, and sometimes it would, it is easy to imagine that the two Proper digital Veins will absorb the initial shock and volume of blood flow and that some of the blood will actually have to work cranially and find a path to the Coronary veins and then to the Proper Digital veins. We can now see, between the two examples, which one provides for more comfort, and greater evacuation hence better tissue perfusion. A toe first landing, while it does happen, provides for a rather poor situation for the ejection of blood therefore a greatly reduced amount of perfusion, not to mention, it puts the ‘epicenter’ at the one point of the foot that is least capable of handling it. The only thing that I believe could be worse, is a hoof that lands completely flat, the V-fib or cardiac flutter of foot falls, metaphorically speaking, of course. Yes, the horse only has one heart. LEAD CHANGES Why do horses do lead changes? They do them to change direction of course. But I have seen film of a herds of horses at a full run change leads while running in a relatively straight line. Just the slightest change in the direction of the herd and they change leads almost en mass, just in case a more full turn is coming up. But, why do they run in such a way as to need a ‘lead’ at all? Does that not ensure that they will be loading their feet asymmetrically? If horses had ‘primary’ contact with symmetrical heel landing. . .then wouldn’t they just be able to run like dogs (or deer for that matter)? If they did, exactly how much pressure from bilateral shock waves of blood can the Dorsal Venous Plexus handle before vessels begin to rupture? It is very apparent to me that, a circular direction of blood flow is necessary for maximum tissue perfusion and circulation and this can only be accomplished by an asymmetrical heel landing followed by a circular (circumflex) hoof rollment to full ground contact as the PRIMARY foot fall. The entire venous complex is shaped like a beauty queen’s tiara, and the Proper Digital veins are located at the ends. If a bilateral heel first landing and a toe first landing were appropriate ‘by design’, would there not be large veins, similar to the proper digital veins located in the dorsal aspect of the hoof? Because…there aren’t! Conclusion? How can we get a definitive answer? Maybe another pressure plate test is in order. This time, there would need to be concentration on what happens between initial contact and the center of pressure point. Can we or do we change or alter this by the way we trim or by the shoes we apply? If this theory proves valid, can we create this situation to encourage this to ensure that it is the primary foot fall pattern? Would it help in the treatment or prevention of navicular, laminitis, or other hoof related problems? Could our horses run faster without breaking down in the final stretch? Should they-could they, race barefoot? Would we still be able to justify the use of shoes, or could we now design a functional shoe that works with the hoof mechanism instead of against it? Who is going to accept the challenge, or who already has the answers? (1) M.C.V. van Heel, A. Barneveld, P.R. van Weeren, and W. Back; Dynamic Pressure Measurements for the Detailed Study of Hoof Balance: The effects of trimming. Printed in Equine Veterinary Journal (2004) 36 ( 778-782
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| calatar |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOnd5t9k4VA
Maybe it's just the horrible video quality but this horse does not look sound to me. Even if he is sound he does not look comfortable. |
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| Kim Cassidy |
He doesn't look sound, he looks short strided and lame in all 4 feet. Not to mention the fact that he is NOT landing heel first
The toe does flick out but the landing is flat. Also hoof mechanism and the 5 phases of flight are not the same thing. I never even heard people talking about mechanism, til the latest barefoot movement came about. |
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| Newfman |
Yup, the videos show a variety of movement and landing. That way you can make your own analysis. That horse is peripherally loaded as well. Could really use a trim. Good job picking that out! |