Underrun heels

Pyrgirl · Underrun heels

Could someone post a picture of underrun heels? I've decided I have no clue what they look like and can't find a photo.
Thanks in advance.

Pyrgirl

Ok, so as soon as I post my question, i find an answer. Here is a picture:

http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/2006/10/20/underrun-heels/

Now the next question. How exactly do you fix this?

Newfman

Hey, yup, those are underrun.

Fortunately, i just covered this and will cross post this part.

The Heels

Let's look at a pine tree for a moment. The fibers of a pine tree run up and down. and are bound together by cells of, who knows what. The strands of horn tubules in the hoof are also in a vertical alignment' Just like hairs in a pony tail. The pine tree can bend in the wind. If a younger pine has another pine fall against it, it begins to bend. If the fallen tree falls away in a short period of time, the young pine straightens back up. If the fallen pine stays too long, the younger pine will grow a bend in it and it will be permanent.

Like a pine tree, you can bend hoof wall. Especially if you are a horse. You do it with every single shift of body weight. One thing you cannot do to a pinetree without damaging its fibers is squeeze it into an eliptical shape instead of a round shape. It has very limited give in that direction. The fibers will separate from each other and the tree eventually develops a long vertical crack.

If you are a horse and your toe is being stretched forward, it is just like trying to make a tree become eliptical in shape. You cannot stretch hoof wall very far before it splits and cracks. During this process, as the toe is forced further and further out, the hoof capsule starts to become more eliptical in shape. Since the lowest part of the hoof wall isn't anchored to the ground in a fixed position, it starts to pull the rear most wall forward with it. The heels actually get drawn forward. Add to that a pounding force on the back of the heel surface, and you are now 'forgeing' the heels in an under-run position. There goes your 1/3 : 2/3 ratio. Put you should have been able to know that without lifting a foot. The angle of old hoof wall growth versus new hoof wall growth and especially under-run hees is a dead give-away.

So, in order to "get the heels back", you have to stop the cause first. Fix the flare, and the heels, with a little trimming help for guidance, will move back, your 1/3 : 2/3 ratio will appear, and all will be right with the world.

Now you can concentrate on digital cushion health. This is a horse that has found a variety of ways of compensating for sore feet. Boots and pads offer sole support as well as comfort. You can expec a measurable gait extension and a heel first landing is almost inevitable.

I use the boots with PADS for 3 days to a week to start the reversal of distal decent. I have seen significant concavity appear in 3 days, BUT, the horses have already grown well connected hoof wall 2/3'rds of the way to the ground. I recommend a lot of excercise after that period in boots. Ride ride ride, if your horse is sound. Continue in the boots to ensure that he stays very comfy on his heel landings. This is what firms up and rehabilitates the palmer region of the hoof.

I have a case study I am working on that will cover this. I just have to get around to writing it, downloading pics and all that stuff. I have permission from the owner to do a case study, but I want to make sure they know it will be publicly available. I will cover their faces or whatever.

I think it will be a good case to follow. We will all learn something I hope.

Kim Cassidy

Most horses have underrun heels to some extent. "Fixing" it is a misnomer. We can improve upon it, and/or maintain it, but you will more than likely never fix it.

Newfman, as for reversing Distal Descent, I hope you have started with baseline radiographs and plan on doing follow ups every 6 months.

I have yet to see a true reversal of distal descent. Pete claims he does, but even his xrays show he hasn't.

So document away and make sure you are documenting with Rads.

Newfman

Newfman

http://www.hoofrehab.com/rehabilitations1.htm

These x-rays?

Kim Cassidy

Kim Cassidy

Newfman

Alrighty then.

I stand corrected.

learningthedance

karmikacres

If you have a sinker, the capsule is detached.

Mike

carefreegirl

Kim Cassidy

Kim Cassidy

Kim Cassidy

carefreegirl

Kim Cassidy

learningthedance

Kim Cassidy

coveredbridgefarm

ridingallday wrote:
[quote]I have some good anatomy books I can recommend to you, if you are interested.
[quote]I think I might be interested in those books.

Also, is there a clinician with a set of dvds on shoeing, trimming, etc., that you would recommend above all others?

Newfman

Newfman

learningthedance

learningthedance

learningthedance

learningthedance

PasoBaby_CarolU

carefreegirl

Newfman

Thanks for catching that guys, I have been mis quoted and twisted so much I am feeling a bit like Obama.

oldmac_donald

Wow, it's like a witch-hunt in here. Quick, she might be a spy for Leah (OMGWTFBBQ!!!) so let's shoot her.

FFS, Newf - was that snide remark about Leah being bullied (not) necessary?

Really not feeling the love here.

learningthedance

LOL, well, I hardly doubt shes a "spy", although, I am sure she is here as a direct result of the recent "drama".

It seems quite coincidental when you look at the joined date, don't you think??

Anyways, I am sure she..Kim/Sue, could be another contributor to this board. It's just too bad she got tossed into a hornets nest, that was well on it's way to resolve, only to whack it again with the stick that has been passed to her by someone else.

Troll is a little strong, but I am sure there is more to the story, and I think we have a lot of smart cookies here that can see what's going on.

I think that is pretty obvious.

Anyways, the decaf is lovely, and so is this forum, and I hope we can all continue to learn, and choose what path it is that works for us through trial and error and all the great advise that is offered here, free for the taking. (or not)

Carol. No nail biting!! I am sending you acrylics for Christmas.

becdubie

Hey! Are you sure you're not all related? This resembles Thanksgiving, when all the brother's and sisters are together.
Ha Ha!
Anyway I hope the good information I've got from reading these hoof threads keeps coming, I've learned a lot as I continue my quest to be the best trimmer for my horses.

Newfman

Newfman

jwilhite

PasoBaby_CarolU

ENOUGH!!!

This kind of thing continues and we will no longer have a Farrier forum.

ALL OF YOU....Stop it.

Newfman

Getting back to under-run heels....

I will give up the word "fix".

Anyhow, I still stand by what I have written for the correction or encouraging the heels back to a more, if not completely proper angle of growth. I think significant changes can be made in a relatively short time frame.

I think the thinner the hoof wall growth, the more difficult it will be to "maintain" a proper upright heel. A thin walled TB hoof, subjected to various conditions, such as, excessively wet environment, lack of timely hoof care, lack of movement as in; standing around the paddock or round bale all day, and or incomplete or inappropriate diet, can experience profound changes in a remarkably short span of time, (in my opinion). A thicker walled hoof on a TB, or large breed warm blood or draft, that has previously been trimmed into underrun heels I believe would be more resistant to returning to that condition, but if you got him there once, it is easier to send him back. (again my opinion). I wrote an article awhile back that I may or may not have posted in the forum...Movement having the most affect on the quality of hooves. I think it still holds true. That does not exclude the necessity for nutrition, environment, hoof care...etc.

I was just reading in the notes from the recent NEAP meeting in Connecticut http://www.neaep.net , about the deformation of hoof wall and an opinion of how when it happens, (if I can figure out where I put the notes).

Ah, thought I was going to have to skip this....

Page 18. NEAEP: An Invitation to Excellence, Symposium, 2009 General & Podiatry Proceedings.
Dr. Scott Morrison, DVM, Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital, Lexington KY

Managing Hoof Capsule Distortions-Sheared Heels, Club Feet, Low Heels

(whew, at my typing speed...should have this posted by New Years...)

This is a quote, less miss spellings, tpos (like that one) and punctuation.

Demise of the Domesticated Foot

To better understand the common problems and causes of our domesticated horse's foot, let's look at the racehorse's foot as an extreme example. The racehorse is bred and managed for one purpose. They are usually stalled the majority of the day (20+ hours), worked for short periods in the morning, walked, bathed, and put back in his stall. They are snuggly shod with aluminum racing plates designed for traction only. The stalls are usually straw bedding. The management and shoeing style offer no support to the foot. The straw is poor at packing into the foot to provide arch support. These horses spend long periods suspended by the perimeter wall. Combine this with long periods of immobility and softening the hooves with various paints, cremes and poultices and we can see how the foot slowly becomes compromised. Racehorses have long sloping pasterns. This causes the heels to become loaded heavily as the foot migrates forward of the limb. the heels are the first region to show structural collapse. Collapsed heels become under run and even crushed. Most racehorses have very poor bar structure, this could be from the very abrasive nature of tracks wearing them down or the practice of trimming them down but is most likely a consequence of atrophy and disuse as the bars are meant to be a weight bearing structure. The bars then fail to develop and don't offer support to the buttress of the heels. It has always amazed me to hear of all the horses that have been scratched from races for bruised feet. These horses race and train on soft tracks, kept in soft stalls. How do they so easily and commonly become bruised? Imagine how fragile these feet have to become to be so susceptible to bruising.

Morrison also stated earlier in the paper. . .

" The horses foot is capable of handling huge impact forces withoiut structurally collapsing. This is probably due to when a horse is traveling, the moving foot fills with bolld during the swing phase. Probably due from centrifugal force filling the non-weight bearing tissue maximally with blood, creating turgor pressure. This fluid in closed spaces helps support the architecture of the foot during ground impact. It is with the help of this mechanism that the foot is able to withstand huge impact forces. Most hoof capsule deformities slowly develop over time. I believe most of these distortions occur while the foot is semi-static (while the horse is just standing around). It is during this period that the foot is mostly dependent on the architecture of the foot tissues for support. Long-term low magnitude loading creates distortion rather than short -term high magnitude force. Horses standing in a stall with little arch/sole support slowly fatigue the integrity of the capsule and propagate distortions. Dr. Hood makes the analogy of the steel beam being able to lift a big truck without bending or bowing, but take that same beam and suspend a lighter load from it for many years and it begins to sag and bow. This is probably very similar to the etiology of hoof capsule distortions. The heel region tends to show hoof capsule distortion first since it is generally made up of softer, more elastic structures than the toe. These distortions display the uneven weight distributions on the foot.

fairhavenranch

Newfman

I would also like to add another thought.

If we follow the ideas of Doctor Morrison, which I posted because I do, it brings up another issue as well as does the arctic casts post. (say that 3 times real fast!)

Resistance or friction of the ground surface.

Based on the Ramey trim, the bevel acts to counter leveraging forces applied to the hoof wall, both static and dynamic. The theory that the ground surface creates a wedging effect in a direction that supports good hoof wall connection. I am cool with that as well.

Here is a problem that some owners/trimmers may run into. Arctic horse foot syndrome. (yup, i just made that up, and no I'm not serious about the title, just the syndrome).

think of it as Winter Flare, or Winter collapse. For horses that have a more natural 24/7 turnout and a run-in shed or the like, they will pound down the snow in their paddock area, creating a snow pack. Add a little sunshine and follow it with freezing and or sub zero temps and you have a new issue. Georgia doesn't typically deal with a lot of this. For some of us, these conditions are semi-permanent , or so it feels. I will have it here as i have for the last 3 weeks, and it will remain until the beginning of May.

First problem is the lack of traction. a static hoof, beveled and on hard dirt or hard pan sand holds its shape pretty well. The "bite" of the hoofwalls ground engaging edge helps to resist collapse as described by Morrison. It isn't the complete fix, but certainly is a part of the solution.

On ice, their is no friction. Infact, the very lack of friction would compound the forces. So, maybe a flat trim would be better, but, since my horses had that back when they had a farrier, and the condition of their feet led me two this endeavor, I am not totally convinced. Possibly a very low, tight flat trim so as to engage the sole/frog earlier and have it more responsible for weight carrying. Heavy footed critters may not have near the susceptibility to it as a thin walled TB or WB.

The other issue is how it affects their stride. Simply put, find some ice, put on your loafers and go for a walk. Just like you, the tighten the muscles in their legs, shorten their stride and try to avoid a heel first landing. Heel first will cause the foot to slide forward abruptly. They walk pretty flat footed. Just not what we are looking for at a time when they are under-utilized and under excercised. A wild horse of course, still treks their 15 miles per day, and they are in snow, not hard pack and sheet ice.

If I had a sand spreader on my trucks, I would simply go to the gravel pit and toss down a yard or two of sand....$15. To pay somone else to come in...25-35 dollars for a sprinkle. What if the sun comes out and the ice pack liquifies a bit? The sand sinks in the water, the water re-freezes and the sand is no longer doing its job.

Using salted sand creates a few problems of its own. It has a tendency first of all to cause the ice to melt and pool. then the sand sinks, the salt loses its effectiveness and the water freezes to an ice rink, polished by four footed zambonies. the other issues would be, what kind of road salt is it? Salt, sodium chloride, etc. and the horses deciding they like the salty ground....sand colic.

Newfman

fairhavenranch

You all may find this appalling but, we live on straight sand and the best thing for traction on the ice we have found is as it will thaw and refreeze every day just let the manure freeze right in with it and fight the overwhelming urge to clean the pens until it totally thaws or the water is completely absorbed during the thaw phase. Which lucky for us is not more than a week usually or I would go insane.

God knows more sand just leads to more sand colic.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I also use manure to cover the ice. After mild freezes it melts into the ice enough to give it a rough surface that provides traction. I have sand and road base in all of my stalls and arena and all the horses have dry space to stand in the winter.

Dennis, I actually think my hooves are healthier in the winter. They are clean and pink (the white ones). They absorb moisture and become pliable, when in the summer they dry and are rock hard. I'm sure in the summer they'd all like a nice snowbank to put their feet in. Horses are steppe animals, and snow is their natural environment.

The worst condition I find is the thaw/freeze that happens in the early spring, when the ground freezes unevenly and the horses have to walk on frozen ridges. I have one soft-soled horse who gets stone bruises and abscesses most springs. I'm sure he'd prefer snow too.

Newfman

Not a problem,

If they poop after hours, it is pretty permanent by sunrise! After I can't walk around without tripping over it, I wait until a sunny day when the temsp are in the high 20s and back drag it with the tractor. Some of the tops soften up enough to spread and add a little traction. You are right about that. Just isn't enough to deal with this situation.

Booting with studs would help, but the idea of 6 months in boots doesn't work for me either.

As I have stated in another post somewhere, the other affects of snow and ice bound horses is their feet are always wet. In spring it is wet and soft, in winter it is wet and hard. (hmmm, I'm going to regret saying that) You know what I mean! So stop it!

Their feet are always warm. so when they stand on ice, the ice melts a little and their feet are continuously wet. the can stand under the overhang at the barn and there is a deep layer of stone dust. So, it isn't like they have No place to go.

everything is better in Colorado isn't it?!?!?

fairhavenranch

ROFLMAO.

*************

Well, I feel better I'm not the only one who spreads the manure on the ice in winter.

It is disgusting but it does work - especially on a north facing slope.

learningthedance

Darn. No wonder I have a foot fetish. I can't even read that without it sounding sexy! LOL

Another one here that uses manure. Well, the half composted wood shavings from the back pile. I get out the tractor and use the bucket to make trails. Like rolling out the red carpet for the kids. We are on clay here, so when it freezes, thaws, then freezes again, it's brutal on their feet. I can barely walk on it, so the paths work really well to get them out to the field.

Kim Cassidy

First off,

I followed Leah here, you all got me on that one. But I followed her here last July when I was busting her chops for some trimming mistakes I thought she was making. I had done a google search on Leah Belhaven Parelli and found her posts here. I was watching what she was saying and lurking.

I had a number of discussions with her via email and the phone this past summer (June - July). I didn't talk to her after that really, just occassional snarky emails.

I was not here the past month so missed the whole Leah blowup, only saw her saying something about deleting all her posts. So lighten up folks.

I've been lurking on this board since June and only recently joined when I saw Newf saying he could reverse distal descent.

It is a pet peeve of mine, when people say they fix or cure underrun heels or distal descent.

I still say I have not seen satisfactory proof that anyone has reversed distal descent.

So for the sake of peace, I apologize for accusing you Newf of stating you cured DD in 3 days. I misread your post, I saw 3 days and thought you said you had done your fixing in that time frame. I still say 3 days and the horse has concavity is beyond impressive, I'd like to see photo documentation of that please

I still say it is critical to speak carefully and correctly so that all the novices and newbies and neophytes that read our words don't think miracles occur.

To LTD, I will not take offense that you suggest I might not be able to cure underrun heels or DD but others have. How can I when I and many others say it can not be done. Did you know there are studies going on right now that show horses are BORN with underrun heels, navicular and other pathologies?

I ask any who are stating it can be done, to please show proof of it. I have xrays of horses who have distal descent and who are now sound. They have massive amounts of sole depth, but the dd is not reversed. I doubt it ever will be without artificial means.

As to the merged photos shown. Is the foot in optimal shape in the second picture, of course not, he was only barefoot for 3 months. Was his foot better than when I started, you bet. It is even better now, you bet.

So that is my explanation. I'm tired, long day.

Newfman

Fair enough.

As far as the concavity, even pictures would not "prove" anything. I would have to do the 'take the picture with the days newspaper headlines in the background proof of life thing' else, who would believe it was three days? What I did have was a Veterinarian witness it. It is her horse.

Best I can do. He has held and increased his concavity from that point on, and I can tell you, there were two Veterinarians there at the beginning discussing the incredibly flat feet. Dr. Jefferson, Maine Equine and Associates, and Dr. Scasserra, Sacopee Valley (her horse).

At the time, his 'hoof wall seperation in the toe was grown down to about the two thirds mark. Prior to that he had had only minimal concavity, and two months of rain caused him to dump everything. He became incredably tender. Three days in boot and pads, very significant concavity, more than we had ever seen on him, and he has been floating ever since. He still has crap thin TB feet, but it is what there is to work with.

Tired myself,
Good night all.