We need a little discussion on inside leg to outside rein

Leah · We need a little discussion on inside leg to outside rein

NO biomechanical discussion can be complete without that topic!

Carry on!!

Niek

Its the german aproach imo. I prefer doing the french stuff. I dont know the exact biomechanics of it though.

Im sure you can enlighten me some

edit ok ive read up some.. i still somewhat miss the added benifit of it.

Jewil

I would love an in depth explanation of this!

When going in a circle to the left, I usually press my left leg lightly to the girth area. I have taught this to cue my horse to stay in a circle motion arching his body around my leg. When I press firmer it cues him to step out make a larger circle. Make sense? Now what the heck do you do with your right rein? Which I am assuming is the outside rein in the left circle…

Now to side pass or ride the diagonal, say going from the back left of the arena to the front right corner, I would use my left leg to bump him over to the right. Adjusting my leg to keep his body straight and cross his legs over. But I also use my more of my left rein, to keep his head in line with his body.

So I realize that what I am doing is probably not right but it makes sense to my horse. Please tell me what I should be doing to cue my horse more accurately or how you are supposed to do it. I guess I use the same techniques that was used to train my mare which transferred to my gelding when I started him.

Autumn

Jewil, I am very sorry to inform you that you must buy a Parelli halter to partake in this forum. Dunebuggy is gonna nuke you for sure.

AHHHHHHHH!!!! sorry, I was having post traumatic Savvy Club disorder. violent3

Jewil

I put that as my avatar on the SC forum once and you would not believe how many people said something about it... I felt I had to explain, so as not to be banished, that the picture was take several years ago pre parelli...

Leah

Does this mean no one knows what I am talking about?

Niek

i do. But as i said. I struggle to see the added value compared to other exercises. I ight be doing it onconciously but i just dont see the added value of it. As in what does it add to the biomechinacly correctnesS ?

Blue Flame

So is it about putting a bend in your horse (around the leg) to match the curve of the track you're on, stop them leaning into the turn like a motorbike etc? Outside rein support a bend forward of the leg to the inside and inside leg stops them falling in?

Leah

Inside leg engages his inside hind to it reaches forward and under (ala straight). Outside rein to 'capture' the energy and keep it leaking through the outside shoulder.

Jewil

BlueFlame ~ that makes sense to me!

Ok, I think I get it now. Somehow I feel I am missing the point of the post though...

happycat

Julie

Using the inside leg jut behind the girth in the right place is not only a cue for the horse to engage the inside hind, but also stimulates a nerve in the area which the horse uses tomove this leg. On a circle by asking the horse to take weight and push off from the inside hind leg not only helps the horse balance himself whilst turning and bending inside, but also dictates the size of the circle. This also produces energy which would be sideways energy, if contact is not taken with the outside rein. This prevents the horse evading and bending though the outside shoulder, as well as moving sideways away from the leg. The horse is held in a slight bend, and when the horse is balanced and using his back end correctly, it enables him to stretch forward into a contact or outline, engaging the topline and lower stomach muscle of the horse, enabling him to remain balanced, lightening the forehand and carrying himself. This should be built up a few steps at a time as it takes time for muscle to develop. The leg use does not necessarily need to be active, but can be supportive, whilst if the rider remains balanced and light, the horse is far more able to understand the requirements. Think of lifting the horse through his ribcage with a supportive leg gently draped around him.

Blue Flame

So what does it achieve/do for the horse?

From FNE saddles "Saddle Fitting Science" page.

Horse Gypsy

I know what you are talking about. From my understanding you ride inside leg to outside rein to lengthen the diagonal stride, and encourage the horse to step under. especially with that inside leg- thereby strengthening that leg. The inside rein is a supporting rein, unless it is activated in a way that says move your shoulder to the inside for Shoulder in or whatever- it keeps the shoulder from falling out. I have been wanting to ask Karen Rolf about the more traditional aides- MAybe we should formulate a question and send it to her??

Leah

Horse Gypsy

I don't know, that is why I have been wanting to ask KR. I know she wants a horse to have self carriage, so that we are not holding them into a frame, and I understand that in theory, but in practice it seems there needs to be more going on. Let us just say you have a horse that is aligned and moving in self carriage by itself and you have a light contact with the reins, and now you want to move from a working trot to a medium trot- how would we do that- I know on some level KR would say with your energy and intension- but what would be Phase 2? Or what would you do if you start to loose that self carriage- that is where I think riding inside leg to outside rein would help- like saying hey we are doing something now. I am not sure you would want to ride with the aids consistently- however I do think we have to activate our leg in time with the footfalls.

calatar

I will be the first to admit that biomechanics and finesse are two areas that I need to learn a LOT about. Luckily, my primary discipline is distance riding and so there is a certain amount of self carriage that the horse must learn. At first I wasn't sure why my horse didn't have the problems that so many other NH horses seem to have in regards to biomechanics but I have come to the conclusion that the long distance riding must have helped tremendously. In regards to doing more finesse work which is my current objective, I agree with Horse Gyspsy and do not want to have to constantly apply aids to achieve this. What I have done in the little bit of finesse work is ask him to carry his body in a certain way and then go back to "neutral" more or less. I do help him by supporting with the position of my body but I do not keep constant leg or rein aides. I see it as his responsibility to keep that position until told to do otherwise and so if he falls out of it, I direct him again and then go back to neutral. Those of you that know more about biomechanics please feel free to comment on whether this is good or bad.

Horse Gypsy

My older horse I did a ton of cross country and jumping with, although at the time our primary focus was Dressage, back then I always rode with some connection with the reins unless we were just out hacking at a walk or a trot- but he developed the best posture and was very fit because of all the galloping and jumping we did, now that I am older and I have a horse with to me a more challenging disposition- I don't do the amount of cross country stuff that I would like to- and I do see that he hasn't developed that balance himself- I wish we could just go out and run around and jump, but he really has not self confidence and would actually rather go around in circles at home- unbelievable I know- so I think with a horse like that it does become really important to ride them in a way that does develop that balance and self carriage- this is where I regret hanging on to Parelli for so long- I should have been asking to round up from Day 1- instead I got stuck on freestyle- which with a different horse would have been fine, but for this horse I am convinced it didn't do him any favors. This is where I think PAts lack of experience with an really performance horses starts to show. The program was designed for little QH - and as we see Linda struggles with her performance horses also. And really I love pat, but he has been winging it all along, and he has taken us all for a nice ride- but we really need to start looking toward the masters of riding for this information. Like PK NO or whoever. I like Heather Moffat right now- although she recommends riding in a pelham- but I am thinking of getting one of those rubber straight mouth not broken snaffles, because I think she may have a point about the nut cracking action of the snaffle being bothersome to contact- don't think I can go to a pelham- but I like to experiment.

kristenhorseluv

I'm raising my hand and saying I have no idea what you're talking about. I might understand what you're saying if someone would explain a bit. I'd love to know.

kristie

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Niek

Horse Gypsy

I am not sure what your are confused about- riding the inside leg to outside rein, self carriage, or what? I would be happy to try to explain to the best of my ability.

As far as I am concerned we need to do what we can to get a horse moving straight and we also need to encourage the hind legs to step under, when going to the right you would want the rt hind leg to step under a little more and carry a little more weight- so you would ride inside leg to outside rein contact- you would use your inside rein to manage any flexion that you would want or not want. In order for a horse to be moving straight on a circle there would need to be some arc in the body to the right. Lateral movements are a little more complicated, but the basic premise has to do with more lateral flexibilty and strength. In lateral work depending on what you are doing you would not ride inside leg to outside rein.

happycat

Julie

Sally Swift is worth looking at.

By using the exercise to strengthen the inside hind you build muscle, and also by teaching th horse to bend you create strength when you straighten. If you do not have strength and muscle the horse cannot go into self carriage for any duration. you build this day by day. vertical flexion and self carriage are not the same thing. Vertical flexion is the horse breaking at the poll and carrying his head vertically without resistance. Self carriage is using the back end to lift the back from hind legs to poll, which displaces the weight onto the back end, which lightens the forehand. People get head fixated but should be hock fixated. You can have self carriage without true vertical flexion, and vise versa which is more common.

once the horse knows this there is no need for constant aids, nor constant rein contact at a higher level.

you build muscle on one side, then the other, which teaches the horse o use both legs when straight,

merle

When I first learned dressage I was taught to ride the inside leg to the outside hand. My instructor was a hunter who was well versed in dressage. She always had me warm up on a loose rein making sure my horse was streched, relaxed and stablized. Once we had that she would have me take the slack out of my reins while I starting engaging the hindend to carry its energy through the back to my outside rein. We would get to a point where I could drop my inside rein and nothing would change, the horse would be engaged, coming through, lite, .....

Since starting NH, I've not used the inside leg to outside rein - I have a clinic with Karen Rholf in April and plan to continue to follow her methods/approach. Like others, I'm curious to hear her opinion on inside rein to outside leg.

In the hunter world, at least where I was, we did a lot of biomechanics development via developing stablization and self carriage on a loose rein in various terrain (hill work with quality of gait). I do the same now with my horse/mule.

Julie

What does Karen Rolf advocate on this topic?

Clarissa

OK who can put a name to what I was taught by an ex-PNH instructor who was disallusioned with the crazy (lack of) biomec's.

As I ride Sonny in a straight line I do the inside leg to outside rein thing adding a little rythmic lift to my heel as his inside leg comes off the ground which causes him to step further under with the foot on the side I am stimulating (lets say the left). In itself it causes him to bend slightly but stay properly upright with lifted ribs & we start a circle. I follow that bend with my body & lift my inside hip & keep my shoulders aligned with his. If I want more bend I lift my inside rein, in this case the left rein. My outside rein is just holding a constant feel.

If I want more engagement & or speed I use my outside leg back well behind the girth in the region we put our HQ yield aid. That drives his Hq across a little to further engage the inside back leg. I keep the outside leg on until I get the desired action then release. I can add rythum to my outside leg by very light squeezing on & off in time with that side leg leaving the ground.

I can then make larger & smaller circles in various gaits & transitions. I can compress the circle right down to a pirouette.

I did that exercise quite a bit over a period of several weeks & in the end I could do canter pirouettes ie forward 360's like collected rollbacks. I think it is a hard exercise for Sonny as he doesn't like it that much & I suspect it makes him a bit sore. But that could be because I am quite heavy & his loins are carrying all my weight along with all his front end too. I think he bends his back down a bit now if I do it too much so he has worked out a way to avoid the collection the exercise demands.

It's one of the reasons I have started experimenting with the cordeo so I can still do the leg aids but allow him to place his head & neck where he feels most comfortable usually fairly low. Perhaps I was compressing him too much. He has a very (overly) pliable mid region & can do compound S bends like a snake!

Julie

The muscle is developed best with the head low to start off with as long as the back end is engaged, as more muscle is developed then the horse is able to carry you easily and can lift and carry his head accordingly. if he wants his head low then as long as he is engaging bck end then that is fine, but without a rein contact he could well still be running nto the forehand and evading.

Horse Gypsy

I can' speak for Karen directly, but I am pretty sure she thinks that the outside rein is the receiving rein and is there holding hands with the mouth- so the contact is light. She spoke really briefly on the importance of the inside leg to outside rein connection in the second DVD in her series.

My interpretation of that- and please tell me if I am wrong- is that when you are doing anything to engage and activate the inside leg, it creates a bend in the body so the inside rein should be able to have some slack if you wanted it to, and the outside rein is receiving the connection from the inside leg stepping under. And I think you can take that into all you lateral work.
I tried some of the lateral engagements with my mare this morning, and she is pretty ready for it, and she really needs to get stronger on her rt hind- so anyhow when you feel the foot step under it does seem to be true that the inside rein gets some slack and the outside rein is receiving, as long as my butt was on the outside- IT is a bit different than the other yields and I think I have gotten in the habit of learning toward the inside- and it just doesn't work if you do that-= glad I heard Karen say to put your weight more to the outside- then she steps right under.

LoveMyTB

What a great discussion....can't believe I just stumbled across this thread. And I'm with happycat--it's lovely to be able to HAVE this discussion at all!

I have a long background in h/j and I was taught the inside rein-outside leg technique early on.

As I got older and was less dependent on my trainers, I found myself using it less as it wasn't necessary in all situations. I mainly use it for for straightness on the flat. In any type of lateral work, I move my inside leg back and maintain pressure to ask for and maintain the bend, the inside rein to guide and direct the front end, and the outside leg/rein to support and prevent the energy from "leaking out" (I think Leah mentioned this already).

I have also found that riding with contact--reins and leg--really helps my RBE focus and stay calm. Without she gets unconfident, strung out and unbalanced.

sebocat

Julie

sally Swift has an excellent book called centred riding, which is brilliant and very easy to understand. you will get all you need from there as it covers position and all sorts of aids and exercises.

http://www.amazon.com/Centered-Ri...afalgar-Square-Farm/dp/0312127340

sebocat

Just odered Centered Riding 1 and 2.

Thank you for the referral! I cant WAIT!!