| Archive for It's About The Horse The Free Forum for those Doing Parelli - and a whole lot More! "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful." Xenophon (430-355 B.C.), |
| barnelda |
weight builderok so anyone use this or smartgain4?My paso is gettin old now and boy he is lookin pretty thin.What kinds of products do you use to put weight on your horses? |
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| gaitinalong |
My 25+ Arab dropped about 60 lbs last winter, which caught me off guard. He's not an easy keeper but he's not prone to losing that kind of weight over the winter. At 13.3H and normally around 840 lbs, he was really thin.
He was getting plenty of fat calories in rice bran and that wasn't doing the trick. While the vet examined him and told me not to worry unless he lost more weight, I worried anyway and asked the farrier his thoughts. The theory with the farrier was that he was lacking protein and amino acids. I added soybean meal and well soaked timothy/alfalfa cubes. Sure enough in less than two months he had gained all his weight back. I cut out the soybean meal but left him on the soaked timothy/alfalfa cubes. He also has mild gastric ulcer issues in the winter, so the calcium carbonate in the alfalfa helps with that. I also bought him a waterproof coat for the cold/rainy/windy days so he doesn't have to burn so many calories trying to keep warm. When my 24 yr old TWH was 19, he lost about 80 lbs in six weeks. He also had some muscle wasting, became depressed, laid down outside all the time. His issue was Equine Metabolic Syndrome. He is now 24 and perfectly fine as long as he's maintainted on a strict diet that includes herbs to control his insulin. He went from being an air fern to losing weight easily if I don't closely monitor his rice bran intake. Regarding SmarPak products: I'm no help there, I don't use them. I prefer to buy herbs, arthritis meds, etc, direct from companies that produce them so I know I am getting 100% pure products. SmartPak has good intent, but I have not guartantee the companies they buy from have the same ethics. Yes, I am over-the-top anal 
Hope this helps:) |
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| thebundychick |
Another vote for the Soya bean meal. Sante lost ridiculous amounts of weight after his illness, Soya bean meal has done the trick 
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| barnelda |
This is the first year Patches has lost weight headed into winter.Last year we gave the pony soaked alfalfa cubes but it didn't put any weight on him.We only gave him that because he can't chew hay anymore.He is like 35`38 yo and looks good.
I'll look into soybean meal.I've been doing some research on beat pulp.My one friend swears by it.She tells me it will slow down the digestive system so the body will take in more nutrients.She has been using it for 10 years atleast.Her 28yo ottb looks like he's 10 other than the gray hair lol. |
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| gaitinalong |
I am going to the Woodshed, I just know it; especially since I "don't have any seniority" on this forum 
While most horses don't colic or get impacted on beet pulp, many do. I read on one form where surgery found the colicked horse to be severely impacted with beet pulp 
I'm not sure I'd start a horse this age on beet pulp, no matter how well prepared. I have yet to hear of a horse colicking on rice bran, which is what I feed all my horses. It comes in powder form (not really a powder in the true sense, but mealy), and it comes in pellet form. Rice bran is 22% healthy fat and provides a cool energy to the horse. Just have to be sure the bag says it's for horses, is stabilized and calcium fortified, so the calcium/phosphorous ratio is correct. |
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| Copious_Amour |
Yup, never had horses colic until they eat some beet pulp. No idea why. It was soaked to the 9's etc. I give rolled oats, rice bran, weight gain, chop and or alfalfa pellets. Not all together but those products have worked for me. |
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| Mandy'sMarty |
My concerns about feeding beet pulp to my mare are based on the intensive chemical treatment of the plants, not on the intrinsic qualities of beet pulp. I don't know how to rid beet pulp of the chemical toxins that are now typically part of the product. Same issues with rice bran, I believe.
Be careful feeding rice or wheat bran to your horse, particularly if it has poor hoof quality. Bran can inhibit the absorption of calcium and zinc. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
We don't normally send anyone to the woodshed until they make it necessary. 
I also have an older horse who is not holding her weight. I don't feed beet pulp (no reliable source) but add oil (Black Oil Sunflower seeds). She hasn't gained weight back, but hasn't lost anymore and seems to be energetic and happy. I'm curious about why you recommend bran over oil and anything else you'd care to share. |
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| gaitinalong |
The rice bran came to pass when my then 19 yo TWH was formally diagnosed with Equine Metabolic Syndrome 4+ years ago. Among other symptoms, he went from being way overweight to losing about 80 lbs in less than six weeks. So I had this air fern who now couldn't hold weight. Two vets from two facilities could only tell me to "watch his diet", but couldn't tell me what that should be. I called three equine nutrionist. The one that owns his own feed mill in Middle Tennessee told me to get this horse on rice bran "five minutes ago", along with a good quality stand-alone vitamin/mineral supplement (meaning not a bagged feed with vit/mins added). He didn't make either product he suggested, he was more concerned in getting my horse back on track. When I switched this horse to rice bran and a separate vit/min supplement, I also switched the other three and discovered: 1. One horse had oat/corn/soy allergies that I never picked up on and always blamed his snarky behavior on his bloodline. 2. Everyone seemed a lot perkier without being hot. 3. Here we are more than four years down the road, all my horses had physicals in September and only the Arab has a problematic tooth. It chipped but the vet said it can wait until spring to be filed because it's not bothering him or interferring with his eating. The point to the teeth is the vet told me rice bran is a bit of an abasive and he had heard that it helps keep teeth clean and even, but he didn't believe it until he saw my horses. They get examined twice yearly. In four years, only one needed his teeth floated and that was because he chews funny, I even had the vet check him for TMJ. 4. Lastly, my EMS horse only needs 1/4 cup of rice bran daily to hold his weight during the warm seasons. I just upped him to 1/2 cup daily for the beginning of winter. It generally doesn't take much rice bran to keep a horse in good weight but they need to either have a vit/min supplement along with it, or they can eat a bagged feed and use the rice bran as an addition for weight gain. Sometimes when that doesn't work, it might be the horse is missing protein and amino acids, thus the soybean meal and/or alfalfa cubes. The vit/min supplement I feed is soy-free because of my metabolic horses which is probably why my 25+ Arab lost weight last winter; older horses need more protein/amino acids. He is not metabolic so I added the soy back for a couple months, until he gained his weight back. Why I am not in favor of oil: I tried that for awhile. I used canola oil and I was happy with it, until I realized one day that every one of my horses was peeing less and the color was funny. I thought "surely it can't be the oil" but I took all of them off the oil and within a week, they were all back to peeing normal streams and with normal color (or lack of color I should say). The "long and the short of it" is that the rice bran and everything else I feed is tied to my now 24 yr old TWH with EMS and the 12 yr old TWH that was diagnosed as insulin resistant last year. That was probably a lot more than you wanted to know
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| barnelda |
not more than I wanted to know!I LOVE details! 
I went to the feed mill yesterday and bought beet pulp after a long discussion with the smart man We talked about feeding soybean meal and Doug(smart guy)told me that prob won't help Patch gain weight due to the oil has been processed out.He really didn't give me an answer to what would help Patch gain weight.Doug did say he would feed some sort of oil.Which I have used corn oil before to help my old TWH gain A LOT of weight.I've already used a gallon and no weight gain so feel that isn't going to work.Thought about trying veg oil.The feed I am feeding is Purina strategy healthy edge.It has rice bran in it so I don't think I should add extra.
Sometimes I think this weight loss is due to Patches hating living at my moms.He gets picked A LOT! IT"S FLIPPIN SNOWING HARD   Sorry not liking the snow!
Anyway I never thought so hard about weight gain before.Bet you see the smoke don't ya LOL. |
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| PasoBaby_CarolU |
Jody, her post inspired me to do some reading. If you Google "Weight Gain for Horses" you'll get some good information. I didn't see a lot about Soy, but found some good recommendations for rice bran and if you want to add oil, the best to add is corn oil. There were several good papers on Black Oil Sunflower Seeds (BOSS). They are also high in fat and fiber. They are higher in Omega 6 but lower in Omega 3 and apparently some horses need higher Omega 3.
I did read the same precaution about Calcium with Rice Bran that Marty mentioned. You might add Calcium from another source. A lot of alfalfa is high in Calcium, or if you are feeding BOSS, it also is a good source of Calcium. Interesting thread. I love research. LOL |
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| gaitinalong |
The only thing one has to watch with corn oil, vegetable oil and BOSS is that high amount of Omega-6.
Omega-6 is known to exacerbate inflammation which was why I fed Canola oil for a time. Canola oil is high in Omega-3. If the 3's to 6's balance is going to be off, it's better to be higher in 3's if the horse is dealing with founder, arthritis, or any other types of inflammatory issues, including those that are metabolic-driven. I liked life much better "Back in the Old Days". My horses were on almost 100 acres, got ridden every day, got thrown a handful of oats to keep them coming in at night, with some corn added in the winter. EIA was unheard of therefore Coggins didn't exist. The farm dog may or may not have got tied in the bed of the truck and drug, howling his displeasure, to the vet for a rabies shot. If he did get brutalized in such a manner, he was the only one, except for the dairy cows who had shots out the ying-yang, even back then 
Not only do I want to go back in time, I want to be that age again. I did not know how good I had it and just how privileged I was to grow up on the farm, living off of it for the most part - lollol barnelda, Are you caught up in the 'noreaster my weathermen say the east coast is getting? It's not time for those yet
Stay safe AND warm
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| barnelda |
Yes I'm in that lovely noreaster!GGGRRRR I put pics on fb.It's adding up quickly and I am in one of those higher elevation places
I don't like research.Reading gives me a nasty headache but I really don't have a choice.I have to figure out what I'm going to feed this horse and soon.Winter is here and I don't want him to be too cold.Think I'll put his blankie on when I go feed this evening.Prob should have put it on last evening. I know nothing about nutrition!I guess I need to do some studying.Maybe I should find a local nutritionist to talk to. Dang snowin so hard now the dish is out
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| barnelda |
If I get the 8lb of weight builder do you think I would see a difference by the time it's all?The 8lber is like $20 and the 28lber is $60.Not sure if I want to spend $60 on something I don't know is going to work but at the same time I want to have enough so I know if it does work.Oh for Pete sake shoot me. | ||
| gaitinalong |
My thought would be to try the 8lb tub to see if it works but given his age, my paranoid self might check with the vet first.
You should be able to see some difference by the time you're down to 2lbs; then you could either re-order or have something else in mind to order. I whole heartedly agree with a credentialed equine nutritionist. I found this link inside the University of Pennsylvania's veterinary link (Not IUP but the Univ of PA). http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/...llwether_general/BW74/healing.pdf While they are talking about nutrition as it relates to the 26 yr old TB recouping from tooth surgery, they sound to have a nutritionist on board that might be able to help you or at least point you in the right direction. I am from Mercer County, PA originally; on the OH/PA border, so I think I was a long way from you and this is about all the help I can be. I hope by the time you get back on line, you haven't seen damage from the storm and still have electric. Do you have a generator? I told Mr. Gaitin' to make sure ours is in working order, just in case. We've been known to lose electric, short term, in big wind storms but we've only had to dig the generator out once in the 8 yrs we've been here. It will run the house but we don't have anything but flash lights for the barn, so if we get below freezing and lose power, there goes the heated stock tanks and stall buckets. Here's hoping you're done dealing with the storm and all is well
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| barnelda |
Storm is gone YAY  Elec only flicker about 15 times.Did end up with all but 15 inches of snow though.
Thanks for the info!Will be checking with the nutritionist for sure. Sorry to be short but got works to do
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| barnelda |
Talked to my vet and he doesn't like any weight building supplements.He wants me to add an afternoon feeding and also said it wouldn't hurt to add corn oil to his feed.
He wants to be the one who floats Patches teeth next time too.I been having an amish guy do it but Doc doesn't think the amish guy is getting what he should.Doc wants to sedate Patch to do the floating.My problem with that is $7 vs $95
It doesn't matter who I get out to float teeth both horses loose the same amount of feed after a floating as they did before the floating.Next floating I'm gonna use doc to see if there is a big difference.But if they still loose same amount of feed I'll stick to the $7 amish guy
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| tchofclas |
I have been feeding beet pulp for over 40 years, back when it was unheard of for horses, and didn't come in pellets. I've always used scalding hot water, and lots of it. I had a feed business and did a lot of experimenting. I feed beet pulp with mixed chop for carbohydrates, soy meal for protein, and ground flax for fat. The last rice bran I bought was about 6 years ago, and was $40. plus for around 50 lbs. I had been searching for it in the '90s to try and couldn't find it anywhere. Bought it for a thin mare and got no visible difference after 2 bags. I've always gone back to the beet pulp mix for thin or old horses. I use a coffee grinder to grind the flax. If anyone is interested, I can post my "formula".
On a side note. my dad lost a horse to EIA in the late '20's, so it has been around for a long time. The Coggins test just verified that was actually what the horse had. The unfortunate result of the Coggin's test was it caused more horses to be put down than the disease ever killed. I remember when there was such a widespread "outbreak" in the '70s, a Florida Arab owner injected blood from their "infected" top ten mare into a pony, and the pony never did get sick, or test positive, but I believe the mare was still euthanized. Charlotte |
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| barnelda |
Thanks for your post Charlotte!I keep leaning to try the beet pulp.My one friend just swears by it.The feed I use has flax in it.Is it possible to give TOO much flax if I would add some?
I say post your formula.It may be something we all could use! Now that the boys are at a place they have some pasture it does seem like they have gained weight.I LOVE the automatic water!!!!NO tanks to clean!! 
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| shelbie350 |
Well over the past couple of years I nursed a very sick POA back from the brink twice. Once was my fault and then once her disease.
My first comment to this discussion is to make sure you know why your horse is losing the weight...and then understand that disease before you make big changes to their diet. Here is why. We got this cute but old pony from Santa, and I thought I was gonna give her such a better life at my place. I started her on a commercial senior feed and gave her my "high dollar hay" and within a month she foundered. Turns out she had Cushings and IR. Which are actually two different diseases. Very important to understand. But both can cause a horse to change body shape and lose weight. Diet is different for both. So, first the save. Blood draws, lab work, bute, sanding in a stall so she could stand and padding her feet we avoided putting her down. Then I started learning how to feed her. For the IR, its about the sugar. Her body didn't handle sugar well (kind of like a diabetic but not). After sending my hay for sugar testing and doing the brain painful research, I began to give her an all you can eat hay buffet (low sugar content hay) and a homemade grain mix of timothy hay pellets, whole oats and black oil sunflower seeds. On top of that, she would get Equipride, a really nice supplement. Anything from the commercial companies had too much sugar or things she didn't need. This kept her pretty good, not great, but pretty good. The problem she had was that she had 2 different diagnosis. Sidebar: A friend uses corn oil when she is rehabbing a horse back to health. Says it adds weight fast. I like the idea of all you can eat hay for these creatures because this little mare really picked through the hay to get what she could eat. The fines. Anything too big and she would spit it out in quids. I am not a fan of Alfalfa due to the high protein content and I am convinced it makes horses nutty. Sorry if you like it, I know lots of people do. All natural approach that kept her pretty happy until I made another rookie move and let her graze the following year on some spring grass. Can you say FOUNDER? Sheesh. Again, the book I am going to write... 
Finally, for her Cushings, which is really a tumor of the pituatary gland that causes screwy hormone levels and a depressed affect. I used the evil...Pergolide. Saved her life. I was able to put her on and take her off as she became symptomatic in the spring time. Signs of ECD are as follows; note that most horses with ECD will display only some of these symptoms, especially during the earlier stages: Coat. Coat becoming curly. Failure to shed coat in Spring. Coat becoming longer and thicker than normal. Color changes, in particular coat becoming lighter. Weight and Appetite. Horse loses weight, despite increased appetite and increased food consumption. Sweating. Horse sweats more than normal. Diabetes and Drinking. Horse may become diabetic, which can result in increased water consumption and consequently increased presence of urine in stall. Filling above eyes. Horses normally have depressions above the eyes (particularly visible when the horse chews) but with ECD these depressions tend to fill in. General depression. Horse looks depressed and ill, losing coat shine. Laminitis. Eventually, ECD will cause the horse to have laminitis. Body Shape. Changes in body shape. Loss of muscle on back and neck, while abdomen becomes pendulous. Immune system. General decrease in resistance to infections and parasites (e.g. worms). My point, know why your horse is losing weight. Don't confuse IR, Metabolic Syndrome and Cushings. Try to make your own grain mixes! Its actually cheaper. Ok then. That just poured out. Hope it helps someone. Sure it will raise some controversy
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| bit |
I just started Shaun on corn oil this morning. He's also on rice bran, soaked timothy hay pellets and soaked beet pulp. He's put on some nice weight. He also free feeds on all the hay he wants. With Eclipse, less is more. Bit is my easy horse. She can graze all summer on pasture, and never change shape. Farrier today said she had near perfect feet. Yep, barefoot. | ||
| thebundychick |
Naw, I haven't been getting updates on this thread
Just wanted to add a thought on the Canola oil - I'm not sure about the Canola oil you guys have in the states, but the crap we have in Australia is genetically modified... I don't want to start a big furore, but I don't do the GM thing. I fed Canola oil for a short time to my horse, but have switched to Vegetable oil, (even though its more expensive) because, I can't in good conscience feed something to my horse, which isn't good for *me* let along him. |
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| Clarissa |
Bundy there is a non GM canola oil readily available in the supermarkets in Aust.
I get Crisco canola oil in 2lt bottles at the supermarket for about $8.90 on special. It's expensive as far as using it for horses is concerned so when I see it on special I get 2 bottles. Unfortunately it only comes in 2lt bottles. On the lable it says guaranteed non GM, made from Aussie seed. There are contact details for the company on the back if you want to ring them. You will need to feed 30ml of oil per cup of SFS or BOSS to get the right ratio of SFS omega6 to the oil omega3. I asked John Kohnke's nutrition person to work it out for me ages ago. Store it in the dark because it comes in a clear bottle unfortunately. |