What do ya'll this of this?

bit · What do ya'll this of this?

I'm desparate to help Shaun. He can't live in boots. Winter is coming. The ground will freeze, he's not going to be ok like he is. I ordered this in a last, desparte attempt to help him.
http://www.e3liveforhorses.com/

Gillies_mom

Have you tried having your forage and water analysed and balancing his minerals to that? If he's footy it could be a magnesium deficiency, this can be brought on my high calcium feeds or just a magnesium poor forage. If his horn is poor it could be a zinc/copper deficiency, again could be due to deficient forage or high iron intake from forage/water. Some horses can live with deficiencies and seem fine others really show up problems. How's his coat? Poor coat or sun bleaching again would be zinc/copper deficiencies.
Here's some folks that do balancing in the US:
http://www.desertequinebalance.com/balancing/the-team
Eleanor kellon is the person that does online training in nutrition, she knows everything there is to know about horse nutrition.

When I was training as a trimmer I was taught that E3 live is very good for a horse that's suffering from absesses.
Good luck, Kate

bit

He came this way. They pulled his shoes after arriving from kill pen, and he was too ouchy to deal. He's been here since middle of June, and I've had him shod since first part of April. Farrier said his hoof wall was too thin to put a nail in, and his sole is very thin. Have him on formula4feet which should take care of copper and zinc. Sending off samples tonight for pasture. Our water has a lot of iron (well water). He's brand new to bf, and is ottb.

Gillies_mom

It takes 9 months to grow a hoof, so his hoof wall will still be showing his past traumas. F4F is good, but if you've got high iron, you'd need more zinc and copper than it gives. It's worrying that he's still footy though, that's more of a magnesium problem. Is he a bit highly strung, that's another sign of magnesium deficiency.
Kate

Gillies_mom

Just read that you're feeding alfalfa, this is high in calcium and competes with magnesium absorption and can lead to magnesium deficiency.
Kate

sebocat

The case studies look pretty amazing, but how can something work in the foot in as little as 7 weeks? I thought feed changes took much longer?

I'd love to hear how this works for Shaun. Ty has pretty crummy hoofwall. Its super thin (of course I am used to draft and 1/2 draft feet, but his wall still seems thin)

Would you mind posting before and after pics and observations? I am super interested to see how he does!

Also, I was digging around looking at glue on options for Paco this spring and found this on KCs site. No nails and offers sole protection without worrying about boots. Don't know if it would help at all or not.....
http://appliedequinepodiatry.org/perfecthoofwear/index.html

bit

Ordered the supplement, and blue algae business owner (was a farrier for 35 years, now has ms) also said to get him off alfalfa pellets. Guess I'm going to discontinue using those, and back to timothy hay pellets. Sebocat, I have a call into my farrier to see if he would be able to apply this system to Shaun. I think it may even be a good thing for Gunner as well, especially this winter. I'll take pictures and we'll see how he does.

sebocat

Are you still trying to get some weight on him? If so, you could try adding oil to his pellets. Worked great for my thin QH mare I picked up at an auction a few years ago. I also used it in the winter to put weight on Bob when he got sick several years ago.

Bit, you are such an angel to take him in and do all of this for him. I am sure Shaun must realize he is in horse- heaven! Lucky, lucky boy!

Mandy'sMarty

Deb--Just got back into town and saw this thread and your earlier thread about boots. I'll answer both threads here.

According to what Shaun tells me, he is deficient in Magnesium and Zinc. His drinking water is way too high in Iron...but you already knew that. Excess Iron suppresses the body's ability to assimilate Copper and Zinc. His overall body pH is 6.6...which is too acidic and leaves him vulnerable to infection. He has had alfalfa as a significant portion of his diet. Too much alfalfa in his diet can inhibit his ability to assimilate Calcium. ( Read more about the risks of too much alfalfa in the horse's diet, and problem hooves, here: http://www.thehorseshoof.com/art_judy_hooves.html ).

Calcium and Zinc deficiencies can result in brittle, slow growing hooves. You are seeing those results in his feet now.

You can probably most easily re-set his pH by adding apple cider vinegar to his drinking water. Use the organic form of ACV. It looks cloudy and loaded with 'stuff', and that is what makes it powerful.

Looking at his recent photos, his body condition appears good to me. You've done a good job. I would never feed oils to a horse. Rather than start another firefight over this issue, I would simply refer you to the article at the link referenced above. It mentions a better way to feed supplemental fat to a horse. Shaun doesn't appear to need that now, IMO.

I have real concerns about feeding the E3Live supplement to Shaun. The contents analysis on that website indicates it is extremely high in Iron. He is already experiencing Iron excess because of the well water. And he is already paying the price for excess Iron with poor hoof quality. I would definitely not choose to add more Iron to his diet, especially right now.

There is a difference between fresh water algae and sea water algae. I have personal experience with a sea water algae supplement. I've taken it myself...and I fed it to Mandy to stimulate her hoof growth last year during her rehabilitation from founder. It works! Even Pete Ramey was amazed at the speed of her hoof growth and the quality of her new feet. Consider the difference between fresh water and seawater algae by reading the information about Wachters' Organic Sea Products ( http://www.wachters.com/access.php?h=WachterBlend ).

This is the specific sea water supplement, Wachters' Sea Meal, that I fed Mandy last year: http://www.wachters.com/catalogit...nnel=Wachters%60%20Pet%20Products
My 'health guru', Regan Golob, recommended this as a hoof supplement when I apprenticed with him. I highly recommend it to you. I believe it will deliver the Magnesium and Zinc that Shaun needs right now.

Mandy'sMarty

sebocat

Thanks for posting the article, its certainly interesting and gives a lot to think about as far as feeding oils.

As far as the link to the shoe-like product, I've never actually seen these, but next spring, they are going on Paco's feet.

Clarissa

Well Bit, I hope it works but don’t hold your breath for it working in the coming winter season. I have recently posted photos that show how little my horse’s feet have grown during the last 5mths of our winter. It’s been totally exasperating because I too have been feeding a top notch hoof growth promotant so far for very little effect.

I think you have to grow the feet in spring & summer so they are sound for the next winter.

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I just read Marty’s post which reminded me of when I used to grow herbs commercially using hydroponics. My ground water was iron high too & if I remember correctly I used Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) or was it some form of calcium to precipitate the iron out of the water. It leaves a lot of sludge in the bottom of the vessel ie tank which has to be removed before it can be refilled but that is the iron & it leaves the water good to use. Oxidation by way of spraying the water into the air (as is or was the usual method of cleansing municipal water supplies) will cause the iron to oxidize leaving it clear to use but that is more expensive than throwing in a few spoons of element. I know it precipitates at higher ph levels particularly over ph8 so perhaps it was calcium I used. Perhaps someone more educated in the area of organic elements can confirm what I just wrote.

Anyway Bit, grab 2 buckets of water & throw in a couple teaspoons of Epson salts in one & a couple teaspoons of calcium carbonate(lime) or bi-carbonate of soda or similar into the other & see what happens. There will first be a red ring around the edge of the water then it will form solids & fall out of suspension forming a sludge on the bottom. I remember old timers throwing a few handfuls of lime into cattle water troughs so maybe that’s what it was for.

Another way to precipitate iron out of water is to use hydrogen peroxide but works best if water is moving a little. 10% is available over the counter but 35% works best. It requires 1.2grams/mls of 10% peroxide per 10lt to achieve a good result. Gentle movement makes the precipitation happen in about 24hrs. However the addition of aeration will make it happen in an hour.

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One thing regarding what Marty said about Shaun exhibiting poor hoof growth due to the iron water. None of the hoof he has grown since being at Bit’s place would be anywhere near the ground yet. The poor hoof he is currently standing on would have been grown prior to & while he was going through the sale system. His feed then would have been bad to say the least so he needs to be given time for that to grow out before deciding what supplements he really needs.

Also you should wait to see what effects the iron water has on his feet & it is still 5mths away before that horn hits the ground. Unless the new horn is really bad, full of vertical hairline cracks or excessively scaley, he should be given time to re-establish a healthy system that itself should grow good quality horn. It’s way too late to try to fix his feet from the inside for you coming winter season, but what you begin growing now will be ready for summer.

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Suz I was really interested in those Energetics for Sonny too. But on further investigation they aren’t suitable for wet conditions which is why I wanted to use them to help with Sonny’s hoof problems during the wet. Then of course like most good stuff they aren’t available in Aust so I would have to import them & they are a bit expensive. I feel that elastic tape would wear out pretty fast & need replacing quite often making them expensive & high maintenance for long term use.

lizloveshorses

Hi Deb,

Sorry to hear that you're having such troubles with Shaun. Slow day at work resulted in my spending a lot of time reading some articles by Pete Ramey. This one I found from July of 2008 is about feeding the hoof and I think could provide you with a lot of information. It also mirrors a lot of what Marty had said in his post about Zinc and Copper. I hope you figure it out soon! Thinking about you here.

http://hoofrehab.com/diet.htm

misstux

California Trace was developed specifically for horses in California, but they are finding that it works well all over. No iron in it. Mr. Strider gets it and I am VERY PICKY.

bit

Have sample in the mail for pasture analysis. Thursday, glue on's go on Shaun until we can get the shoes that Sebocat recommended. Farrier said he'd watch the dvd and put them on when they came.
Can't believe how little I knew when I got Bit. There is so much to know to grow a healthy hoof. You can drown in it all.

sebocat

Let me know how he does in those shoes. I'm going to use them in spring.

You arent kidding about the wealth of info (good and bad) to sort through about hoofcare! Its amazing how much has been learned just in the last decade or so!

Blue Flame

Just wanted to add to the conversation about hoof wall growth . . .

As I understand it, some hoof wall (outer) comes down from the coronet but some (inner) is also added along the way by the dermal lamina.

http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/articles/WallGrowth.pdf

I mention this because it has implications on how long it would take to see an improvement or degradation of the hoof wall.

cokey

Perfect hoof wear wraps are brilliant. I've used them in the UK, and they're the best thing IMO for footy horses. The longest I've had them stay on is 6 weeks (had to rasp them off to allow the trimmer to do her job!) - the shortest is about a week (that was the first one that I ever applied though). Use glue, glue and more glue

You can never put too much glue on! And use the little screws that they come with too...

Oh - and I've never used the "shoe" bits that are on that webpage - just the wraps by themselves do a great job as long as you're not planning to ride on a road - they're very slippy.. But I guess that's not an issue for Shaun, right?

bit

Got Pro Feet yesterday, I guess. Not sure. It was late by the time I got back from Iowa and I didn't come in the front door. They were waiting for me this morning by the front door, so now just need to figure them out. Hoping Kelsey will help me. Like the rubber shoes on them, and hope they will provide some comfort and protection. Still think I will go with Epona's in the winter on the front's. Woman is coming to look at Gunner, and hoping he will do well with her. I'm just trying to get the horse numbers down to three. Two retired and Eclipse. Still looking for a great human for Hawkie, the arab with the wonderful feet. I sure am hoping I can get a handle on the foot issues. I'm tired of dealing with it, ya know?

thebundychick

Oh Bit, I know. Nearly 5 years, three farriers, and counting"

I know.

As dori says: "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming"

misstux

Deb, I'm not going through it with feet, but with lameness issues. Dusty was marginally sound after an accident when he was 11 and he had multiple other physical issues. He was 19 when he passed. Mr. Strider has somewhere from 50%-85% of coming back from his injuries. I've told him that he WILL get well. Sometimes the best we can do is believe, hope and put one foot in front of the other until things get better.

Clarissa

I could possibly say the same thing. I've been lucky with little hoof problems for most of my horse owning life.

However the last 2yrs have made up for that. Seems like it's all coming in one event for me. I'm looking forward to getting a handle on the current set of issues in the hope things can return to what I know as normal for me!

My back & arm can't handle all this 2weekly hoof trimming of 3 horses all the time either.

bit

The farrier came today and made custom shoes for Shaun. He's comfortable. and walking well. I'll have him in sno shoes this winter. I'm hoping he can go barefoot with proper diet and trimming in the future, but for now he's in shoes. My priority is for him to be comfortable. He is. Followed me down from the shelter to the well pasture, about two acres away. Part of that pasture is very down hill and he walked it great. I'm really hoping I'll see him galloping, full speed with the wind in his tail.