What I’d really like to see happen on this part of the forum

Clarissa

Although I am in favor of moderation, hopefully the transgressor only needs to be moderated once to change their ways. Those of us needing help with our horse would like to read the posts as they arrive. I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling the slight exasperation of having to wait days for the post to become available.

I also understand the moderators themselves have private lives away from this forum so I just have to wait.

HOWEVER

People really do have to stop picking on each other, that’s for sure. If each individual was to proffer information about (& stick to) their own method, we the readers, would get a clearer picture of what they are wanting us to understand & learn about the horse’s situation. There would then be 2 or 3 (depending on how many professionals wanted to join in) clear options for us to weigh up.

The essence is lost once nit picking enters the thread & it is very hard to keep track of each professional’s ideas about treatment. I understand a professional feels the need to correct or challenge offered material of others that they feel is not right. However the converse can also apply. We end up with 2 or more people sniping back & forth about each other’s versions or beliefs & it does get wearing!

Best to just continue to post as clearly as you can about your own method so we get a total picture of it.

May I suggest a method of posting that I have found beneficial. I type into a word doc what I want to say, then check it for punctuation, spelling, essence, etc. If it makes sense & is still relevant I post it by cut>paste. One benefit of using a word doc first before logging in is that you can reword or make several alternations or check research over time without getting logged out!

Anyway that’s what I would like to see here. In general I have found it advantageous to read the various opinions expressed here by the professionals pertaining to all the horses people have posted about. However I would find it much easier to follow if there was not all the sniping throughout the thread making it tough going at times to wade through.

I’m sure all the other readers feel the same.

Have a great day.

bit

I don't get into religious or political discussions with friends because people's opinions can get so passionate, you can lose a good friend over something like reincarnation, or immigration law. Can't you just post your opinion regarding how to help the horse, and let the person asking for your opinions wiegh and decide for themselves? We unprofessionals aren't stupid. We are going to consult our own professionals, we are going to think long and hard about the choices, and do our very best for our horse. We'd do that anyway, but at least here, we can have a bit more insight on what the choices are, ya know? When you start letting it fly at one another, it diminishes you, not the other person.
I'd like to see good information, a variety of choice, and support when we need it. If you think someone is giving BAD advice, you can state that you dissagree, this is why, and this is what you would choose to do. You don't have to insult the person. Like I said, it only makes you look bad and your opinion, however good it was, simply gets lost.

appellativo

I've asked Carol to revoke my status as a moderator. I see some good points being made in the posts, but I just couldn't justify releasing them because of the lack of tact and courtesy in the delivery. I don't want to be a babysitter! I think the posts should just not be moderated and if we don't like someone's attitude, PM the moderators and they will simply ban the offending people. It's OUR forum, and if there's someone here that can't treat others like they'd like to be treated and who are so holier-than-thou that they have to tear others down in their delivery, we can vote them out! So speak up. PM your moderators and let them know who you like and who you don't like. We have to create the environment we like here. We don't have to tolerate those who won't talk respectfully, helpfully and in the spirit of caring and giving.

Others are always a reflection of yourself. How many times do we hear our horse is a reflection of ourselves? They feel our energy, and they respond to it. It's all about balance. I think some thrive on confilict. They need it in order to feel better about themselves, tearing others down. So, don't fuel their fire, Don't comment back and give their egos what they want which is a fight. Just pm your moderators.

If the above offends anyone, ask yourself why. If you didn't think 'we' were talking about 'you,' you wouldn't be offended. So, if your feelings are hurt, then that means YOU thought you fit the description I posted. Think about that one....!

Clarissa

I hear you appel. It must be hard at your end.

I think those other farrier forums have become so confrontational that people get into a certain mindset when they reply to posts.

We who populate this whole forum are of the 'natural' variety. The professionals who we need to ask for advice & guidence are most likely 'normals'. In our daily lives we might have to get the vet & they would most likely be a 'normal' so we make allowances for their ineptitude when handling our horse. Hopefully some of our & our horse's confidence will rub off onto these people along the way.

When I first read a post by Leah & then Kim(RAD) I was shocked at the tone, demanding & discurtious. When I learned that was how they normally spoke to each other I just thought to myself "mmm, just like a normal horse owner"

The similarities are not coincidental.

We need the pro's here so we need to also help them come down off their adrenalin while they are here so they can also have a better experience.

They DO need to stop being rude etc. No doubt about that. I'm not big on working out rules for these sorts of things. My mind goes blank when they can't make a post without having a dig at the other person. I just shake my head & feel a bit embarassed for them & wonder what stresses there are in their lives to cause such rudeness.

Then I realized they don't know they are being rude because this is how they post in these other forums they belong to. If we keep banning the pro's there won't be anyone left to offer professional opinions when we really need them. I can't get past the fact that as adults, there is something very wrong if people aren't be able to type some words without flaming someone personally.

There can be a big difference between the technical knowledge a person has & their general capacity to do as best they can with their horse. This is where the pro's are needed, to help fill the gap.

Perhaps we, the usual inhabitants of this forum need to forgive the pro's their inablity to correspond with us in our language.

We need someone who can help the pro's write their posts so they read nicely!

Kim Cassidy

Clarissa:

I can only speak for myself but I'm sure some of it applies to both Rick and Leah.

We are not rude, nor are we clueless or rough with horses. I have talked to Rick on the phone many times and in person a few times. Same with Leah.

Speaking for myself, I have to say it gets really frustrating seeing the MISinformation that abounds by "internet" experts with not enough experience either trimming professionally or shoeing.

Seeing MISinformation handed out to folks who then use it makes a person crazy

I care way too much about horse feet, as a matter of fact, I'm working on scaling back. It is a thankless and even more important moneyless task.

Seeing the same info regurgitated over and over year after year on a variety of forums can make you short.

Now no one is forcing me or Rick or Leah or or or to post, but it is HARD to stop caring.

I guess as Erin says you can ban everyone who is rude or doesn't speak the version of truth that is desired but what will you have left?

What is more important, correct information or saying incorrect information super sweet?

I saw Rick's posts and responses to Newfman, Rick wasn't rude (IMO) he just was questioning all the bold statements newfman was making.

If two people give almost completely different advice, how do you know who to listen to? Isn't it better for the two advisors to question and answer (with proof) so that the advisee can discern between the two?

Why do you all care so much why it is said? If your horse has a bad saddle fit and he keeps trying to buck you off would you not listen since he is so "rude"? Or would you try to figure out what he is telling you so you can address the situation. Another horse with a bad saddle fit, might not walk along as nicely. Will you listen better because he wasn't "rude"?

I just don't get it and I'm not a mean or bad person. When I was first starting out, I thought Rick was obnoxious, but I kept reading anyway. I thought there might be something in there for me to learn. Well lo and behold we are acquaintances now and I always feel comfortable calling and getting advice or giving an opinion.

Keep shutting the professionals down and you'll be left with novices who think they know way more than they do.

appellativo

I see what Kim is saying. I know sometimes people just don't listen unless someone else gets their blood up by being rude/angry with them. I can ask my kids all day long to pick up their toys in a nice voice, but sometimes I have to get loud and obnoxious for them to listen. Hey, life is tough. Still, there's got to be a way for both sides to try their best to get through to the other side in a way that is still respectable to each. I'm way less likely to get defensive and shut someone out if they are not saying things like this to me:

(removed the PM)

AlythLong

I am quite horrified by that language! Un-necessary and objectionable.

My question is "what is misinformation?" Does it vary from person to person so that one persons information is another persons misinformation? How do you tell which is misinformation and which is information?

Alyth

appellativo

The problem with the hoof care debate is that it's still evolving. It's not something we've been studying long enough so that we know everything. But, people experience what they do and they stand firmly behind it. Life is a learning experience, and with hoofcare as with so many other things, there are an infinite of variables with a living thing like a hoof on a horse; genetics, upbringing, management, diet, etc. etc. Even the people who say that what they've observed and have been doing works, another person will come along and say "I did that, it didn't work for me, this is what worked for me/my horse....." It's just the way it is, and no one person is going to change everyone else's mind. So, people need to accept that. Share what you have and leave it up to the individual to try what he/she believes is going to do the best for his/her animal. That's all you can do. You can get your panties in a twist all day long, but you know what they say. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Yes_But_Neigh

Chablis

Rudeness is unnecessary and we can all be middle of the road.

Let's all try to work together, huh?

This is an information sharing forum.

learningthedance

Chablis

learningthedance

Kim Cassidy

Chablis

I think it is the intent behind something someone writes (or what appears to be the intent due to Internet writing limitations) that dictates how someone else responds.

Kim, I work with some pretty rough speaking guys and they don't offend me, whereas others might be offended on my behalf. I know the guys' intent is not to offend so I usually don't take offence; however, I do let them know if something they said has offended me and they take it on board. This works both ways.

When I read your posts, I see them the same way (although I'm assuming you are not a guy

). You are trying to help/explain and therefore I am not offended. You have not gone out of your way to insult people because you want to make a point or someone disagrees.

Now you would know Rick better than us (I'm making an assumption here) so we are responding to what appears to be his intent. I don't know him personally so have no idea how he really means some things. We are going by what is written.

Therein lies the difference (in my eyes). I hope that makes sense

appellativo

I kept that to myself since it was sent weeks ago. I didn't even reply back to him, I just blew it off. But, the reason I finally posted his pm to me for all to see is that people kept questioning me on why he is being moderated. Also, I thought that if he felt as thought he can blast me like that, why can his words not be shown for all to see? If he is ashamed for others to see what he said to me, then he should not say it. If you don't want anyone else to hear it, you probably shouldn't be saying it. If it helps anyone else to reconsider being so discourteous (and in writing, at that!) then my posting it has fulfilled its purpose.

I did not mean to 'talk down' to him in my pm but he certainly felt I did. If he'd just have said so in a decent manner I probably would have clarified my intent, but now....I just don't care to extend the effort for someone going in the opposite direction.

I'm sure Rick is not so bad if you get to know him. Some people just don't have the ability or desire to come off 'receivably' and it's so hard to judge intent correctly 100% of the time on the internet. But when you don't have that personal factor, you really do have to TRY harder if you want to be well received. Sometimes people can't hear what you have to say for the delivery.

Anyhow, I won't be moderating anybody anymore so maybe he can consider that as my 'truce.' LOL

learningthedance

I kind of like the idea of having you back as a regular poster anyways. You seemed to have more to say and I like that.

Welcome back!!! You were missed.

The opposite direction. Hope the destination is worth the trip.

calatar

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Rick was trying to make a point. He was accused of being rude and so he wanted to show you what rude was. I saw it as hyperbole...

appellativo

Let's think about it for a minute.

Someone slams on their brakes. You think, "What an idiot!" Lean out your window, and scream, "F-ing idiot!!"

The lady, who slammed on her brakes unbeknownst to you because a bee stung her and she freaked out,...how is she supposed to react to being cussed and called an idiot?

Her action was highly inconvenient for the other driver, and could have done damage. But is she damned to hell because she made a mistake? Should she be treated with discourtesy, or should the other driver either let it slide or try to find out what happened?

How would the lady most likely respond if she was called and idiot? Wouldn't one expect her to become defensive and emotional? Would she not be more likely apologize if she had not been treated rudely?

As I said, If Rick B had replied to my PM by saying, "I don't appreciate you talking to me like I am a child." I would most definitely have said, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. I was trying to get a change in your posting decorum and I should have known that it would sound sarcastic given the context, not joking as I had intended. I apologize for my poor choice of words."

learningthedance

Well, he certainly made his point.

I don't think using "hyperbole" to personally blast appellativo was the smartest move, but hey...to each their own I guess.

calatar

The only problem with the bee string analogy is that Rick was not being rude when he was called out for doing so. I could see how being called rude when you aren't and being talked down to would ruffle some feathers. I am not defending him but I understand the frustration.

What if that had happened to you (and by you I mean the collective you, not any one person in particular)? You say something that isn't necessarily offensive but because others complain about you, you are warned when you didn't really do anything wrong. Maybe everyone here is perfect and would have ever so nicely and calmly tried to defend themselves but if it were me, I would be pissed that other people not liking me led to get a warning.

Chablis

learningthedance

alexwein

Being frustrated is one thing. Then you say, Hey, I'm frustrated and here is why... Another thing entirely is being offensive and incredibly rude. There is no justification for that kind of attack. I don't care how frustrated a guy is. What Rick said is horrid, plain and simple. Shockingly so.

As for misinformation and being passionate about horse's feet, you are not all knowing. Arrogance is a thin disguise for intolerance for other people's opinions and their own right to choose. And to me, it completely shatters someone's credibility. If you are arrogant and treat people who disagree with you badly, to me it is a cover for a weak point of view or a lack of genuine knowledge. That may be a wrong assumption, but that kind of behavior invites dismissing what someone is saying. Why be rude about it? If you have the strength of being right, why not present it in a reasoned way and argue your point with the facts behind you. Because when you are rude and offensive, it deflects people off of the subject being debated and onto being personally attacked. Must be because you don't really know what you are talking about. At least that's how it looks.

Many people are passionate about what they believe, but many of them are NOT rude and nasty. What you believe is just that. A belief. Other people have other beliefs. To think you are right to the exclusion of any one else's opinion and have a right to be nasty to people who disagree with you about it are dogma and rudeness, respectively.

I think it's fine that you can call each other and if you want to say offensive things to each other and find it funny, go for it. The point is, other people DON'T find it funny, and are asking you to respect that.

AlythLong

In that case Kim there is heaps of MISinformation on both sides of the argument!! I just go by what I see in my horses hooves......

4theloveofjake

Ricks post is disgusting, demeaning to Erin and ALL women. He sounds like a sociopath and I am literally appalled at his words. Sick, sick, sick !!!! People like this should never be allowed the privilege of being a member of a wonderful forum such as this place. To be honest I never liked the guy from day one. There I said it !!

rotate88

There is this really cool device on most everyone's computer called the mouse, and it allows us to control what we see on the screen whenever we want.

"Rude" is totally subjective. Look up what Frank Zappa had to say to the PMRC (that group of Washington wives who wanted to control the sales of certain heavy metal albums) back in 1984-5.

The problem is, there is precious little moderation going on, but there is a heck of a lot of censorship. A moderator is responsible for making sure all sides of a debate have equal opportunity to express their views, not controlling how those views are expressed.

And publicizing supposedly "private" communications without the permission of the other party shows a sad lack of integrity.

And also, there (sounding like Mrs. Palin), internet forums strike me as very silly places to learn about hoof care in the first place.

But please, don't listen to me.

Clarissa

It may well have been a private post but it was typical of Ricks general style although I don’t recall him calling the owner of the horse in question or the owner of the opposing opinions quite so many names.

Name calling is bullying. We try to cull it out of our children’s lives & at school, tell people it is wrong to do it in emails or texts etc. What makes it ok to do it in forums?

The act of sensetive debate is a learned skill there is no doubt, but one we should all try to learn when we use public forums.

Edited to add...

I've just had a brilliant idea:-

Maybe we could advertise for professional farriers/bare foot trimmers who are prepared to post in a way that is in keeping with the above average tone of this forum!

We could set a new precedent for courteous posting on forums. I don’t see the need to put up with posts that don’t hold up to the general standard of this forum. We are afterall, very different to most forums out there. We keep saying how nice we all are & there is nothing wrong with being courteous & having ethics towards each other.

We can have our say without being rude or nasty to other posters. It may be a learned trait, but surely one worth the learning?

Kim Cassidy

coveredbridgefarm

The farrier forum is doing a good job of demonstrating the reasons PNH may have had for its moderating policies. In the final analysis, all of these horse forums are largely about human behavior. You either like the ways in which humans(collectively) communicate, or you do not.

It could be worse, you know. We could all be locked in a room, forced to listen to everyone else, with no mouse.

Larry

Clarissa

Here, Here to Kim for containing her emotions to that which will support her argument in the most pertanent & positive way.

I agree whole heartedly with the brain washing & BS that happens everywhere to do with many things, not always restricted to the net.

Here in this situation it's up to the person seeking the info to make the best choice they can regarding which method to go with, using the opinions laid out before them. So if the opinion is clear, concise & complete according to the individual giving it, the person seeking it has a good chance of making the right decision for their horse. What suits one will not necessarily suit another in a totally different circumstance.

And if that method turns out to be the wrong one, then there are others also well laid out for the person to follow up with & test.

4theloveofjake

Kim, it sounds like you are extremely knowledgable and I am so happy to have experienced hoof folks here. As they say no hoof no horse.

So ditto to Clarissa !!

Here, Here to Kim for containing her emotions to that which will support her argument in the most pertanent & positive way.

Newfman

Dr. Dave,

A Dr. of what? Just out of curiosity.

The following is openly directed, and not directed at Dr. Dave. That was a separate question.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

When I first heard of "natural hoof care" at a mustang auction, I pretty much figured it was a fad. No doubt though, at the time, the seed was planted, and I ended up giving it more interest than I had planned.

The more time we spent around other barns and other peoples horses, and listened to all the reasons why their horses feet "had to" have shoes, or had big cracks, or chips, or large distortions, or abscesses on and on and on, I decided to look a little deeper. One thing I knew, was from my years of living and traveling through and/or living, in all 48 contiguous states, and 4 different countries, domestic horses all have the same problems, and the wild horses don't wear shoes. So, it did get my curiosity going.

I originally bought Jamie Jackson's books, and Pete Ramey's book, and read them over and they seemed logical. So, before I would dive into natural hoof care, I would research it with the idea that I will try to prove it is bunk. From then on, most of my reading and studying came from scientific published papers, Professional Journals, the Veterinary Forum, articles published from the AAEP and NEAEP symposiums. I also correspond with some of these Professionals. I very rarely spend any significant time at Joe Bob's hoof care website, even if Joe Bob is famous. I also was given the privilege to shadow some farriers. I heard their explanations of what they do and why they do it. I've seen some pretty cool shoeing, and black smithing. The cross ties in my barn are really cool and hand made by my farrier. It is kind of funny, as myself and a friend, hand made my little high-top cape, custom timberframe barn. We built it in the traditional fashion, held together with oak pegs that we cut out of an oak tree that the hardware store clerk had just taken down at his house. We raised it with a gin pole and survived the process. Yet, everyone that comes to see it, think the cross ties...are the coolest thing they've seen! Too funny.

I have also seen some of their barefoot trim work. I have to admit, that, was much less impressive, to 'me'. My own horses feet were included. I also found the trims to be very consistent. As if they all came from the same text book, with the exception of the Natural Balance Farrier/Trimmer. His were different, but still not quite how 'I' do it. I'm ok with that, it just isn't the way that 'my' research and study, dictate how 'I' will do things. His research and study support 'his' ways. I'm cool with that. With my own horses, the more cracked and chipped and under-run they got the more I started to be able to apply what I had learned, to what I was seeing. While my farrier explained that they do that in the summer because they are stomping a lot do to the flies, he had to explain that in the winter, it is due to the dry air. The feet are flat because the pasture grass has moisture and it softens the soles, and I can't remember why they do it in the winter. They will need shoes if they are going to be ridden or worked. I have found that, to not really be the case, and chips and cracks are not really an issue anymore. Pasture is though. But that is a different subject altogether.

I have never made a claim of being an expert. Everything I post, unless quoting, is expressly my opinion, and everyone know that. You can take it or leave it. "That" is your "Right".

To claim that one didn't go out of her way to 'flame' me for everything I say, would be nothing less than a lie. To say that she didn't encourage Rick to come here to do the same thing, that being what he is most famous for on the horseshoers forum, would also be a lie. It isn't so bad getting opinions or information from the internet. It is done in every profession in the world these days. Why would horse feet be the exception? It is pitiful when you have to go to the internet to try to get validation, and become spiteful when others don't pay homage sufficiently to your liking. Very sad indeed. Do I reply poorly, ineffectively and somewhat immaturely when being attacked? Yes. If you disagree with the information, fine. State your case, explain why. Don't go after the person that posted it. Don't demand references for everything you disagree with, just because you disagree with them. Especially if you can't do it yourself. Dropping names is not referencing actual studies. Especially do not demand references if you aren't going to be bothered to actually read the studies provided, or even educate yourself enough to understand the studies. When one counters an opinion, it is customary to state your case, and "HOW" it (your method) actually works, and how it is so much better than the other way, and why. Not just because 'you say so' or Joe Bob says so. That just sounds ignorant and argumentative.

Now, I see that Kim has done the fine act of throwing Gwen Santagate (Caballus) under the bus in a forum that she isn't even a member of, but hey, go figure. That is typical. I will be sure to allow her an opportunity for rebuttal. She has helped a tremendous amount of people learn about their horses. She has put up with a tremendous amount of "BS" on the horseshoers forum, for no other reason than she is a barefooter. Yet, for some strange reason , she stays. I'm not sure what the correlation is between herbal remedies, and hoof trimming. But, any chance to throw someone under a bus, can't be overlooked! Hey, if she likes herbs, more power too her. They aren't my thing, so I exercise my 'right' to not use herbal remedies. I also don't bash her for it. And certainly wouldn't do it behind her back. That would make me feel like white trash. But that is just how I would feel about it. Your mileage may vary.

I don't get what the big deal is between trimmers and farriers. Maybe we threaten their livelihood? Oh, yeah, there are some serious hacks out there! Some drive up in a VW with a rasp and a pair of nippers, and some with a truck and trailer full of shoes. Farriers have their idiots as well. But when it comes to just basic hoof trimming, the fight is no different than the Hatfield's and McCoy's. Senseless. Especially since, the variations between farrier prepared bare hooves, and trimmer prepared bare hooves, are very similar. The big difference is the 'rehab' process. Once you have a finished foot, the trim, is quite similar, and the difference in wall height is minimal. One trims flat, one follows contours. One leaves pretty sharp edges, one bevels or rolls, some strongly. Big whoop. The difference between a pair of padded Epics, and a pair of packed Eponas, is minimal. Each are a tool, each do the same thing, each have their good points and bad. It isn't rocket science. One may be sold with a better spiel. They could do a lot more business if they sold them on late night infomercials. Don't get me wrong, it IS a good product, but is not the Holy Grail that they are portrayed to be by some of their users. It is just a different version, of the same old thing. They cost more though. You also get to nail them on, so you can sort of think of yourself as a farrier, and look down upon "barefooters" and booters. Pretty sad. Again, jus my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

MODERATION AND CENSORSHIP

This is such a simple one. This is a Privately run forum. It is not a public forum supported by your tax dollars. You DO NOT have a Right to post here. It is a Privilege. So, there are certain rules, that apply. If the administrators said that; each day in a 26 day cycle, there will be a letter from the alphabet, in alphabetical order, assigned to that day, and if your name begins with that letter you won't be allowed to post that day, then that is their Right. A function of ownership. If you disagree, you have the 'privilege of complaining. You also have the 'Right' of leaving. The owners/founders of this private forum can require everyone to post in Blue. That is their 'Right', and you have the right to go elsewhere.

If the moderators, that have 'by direction authority' given by the Administrators, decide that you are an ogre, and you are not posting something that would likely offend the general membership, then they have the "Right" to censor it. You do not have the "Right" to have it posted. Especially if you have been told previously that this has been found to not meet the rules of the forum. The Horseshoers forum has rules too. They allow a lot of flaming and bashing of people there, but if you do not pay homage to the shoe, you only have access to a couple places within that website. They censor you by restricting your access to topics that allow the presentation of barefoot topics. This allows you to post something so that a handful of them can then berate you publicly, and show how ridiculous they can be. The better farriers, usually don't play that game. Dave Whitaker comes to mind. Anyhow, that is where Kim got her training, and she chose Rick, one of the most infamous of the group, to be her mentor. He did a very good job indeed. You, Kim, have the "Right" to go back there and pull your socially disgraceful antics there, all day long. Though you know they will descend upon you like wolves on doe. That is that forums way. You come here to do it, because that is what you have learned as a Junior wolf. The pack mentality doesn't work when you are away from your pack. Bringing one wolf along, does not a pack make. Trying to cut one person from the herd here, just to feed your ego, and try to get some sort of internet validation is transparent, boring, and disruptive. So, don't act so offended when you are called on the carpet for it.

My choice, was to exercise my "right" to forego my 'privilege of posting publicly, and instead, conversing by private message, as well as to move on to other endeavors. This was also an exercise of my "right" not to deal with your desperate search for validation, at my expense. Nobody has the "right" to tell the the administrators of a PRIVATE forum, what is and isn't to be aloud. If you cannot deal with it, exercise your "right" and leave.

Private Messages

Children are being taught, everyday, that anything they post on the internet, is there forever, and nothing on the internet is actually private. Never post something that you cannot handle becoming public. To assume that a Private Message, is truly private, and under no circumstances will ever be published, is silly. Even a lot of 10 year olds know this. Members were challenging the moderators "right" to censor a persons post whom was already on probation at the "right" of exercise, of the administrator. I think it was perfectly appropriate to show the kind of verbal abuse she was being dealt, and made sense to publish it so that others could see what kind of crap, she was trying to keep off the forum, to the benefit of the general membership. If some members prefer this kind of on-line talk, go here, and post all day long. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/index.php Be prepared to agree with everyone, and kiss a lot of butt. Unless, you want to be the next meal. Go ahead. I dare you! LOL

Thought I'd just pop in and put my two cents worth in.

By the way, writing this in another application and then cutting and pasting did in fact help. Thanks, good idea!

edited for spelling and a point clarification.

4theloveofjake

Am I reading this right ? This is spilling over from another forum ??

This forum is special so please let's all keep it clean. Us folks who are still in the beginning learning phases need you and the bickering only detracts from the discussions. Of course, our farrier or trimmer will have the final say but it is very helpful to understand hoof issues for many reasons ourselves.

I sure hope the focus remains on our horses and sharing information. Civility can occur without agreement.

Read Carol's quote about tolerance

I am bowing out now and hope I can come back in here and learn more about hooves and all that they entail.

Thank you

alexwein

alexwein

And, btw, I am equally as passionate as any one of you, Kim, anyone, about my horse's health and about my horse in general. I'd lay down in front of a bus to save her. I'm sure many people are very passionate, as much as any one else. So passion does not make you special. Your knowledge does, and that is what I would like to hear more about.

Clarissa

Thankyou also to Newf for being direct but not discourteous.....well mostly! thumbleft

I was interested in how you came around to the natural trim.

I have been to that website & really tried to follow an opinion on one thread & for the life of me I failed to learn a thing. It was just too hard to filter out the BS & bashing & develop some sort of continuum of the opinion being espoused.

I'm sure no-one here wants that to happen here. However sometimes we need help from a professional. You may note I have never referred to the farriers/trimmers here as experts.....

You know what an expert is. EX is an unknown quantity & SPERT is a drip under pressure!!

PasoBaby_CarolU

Well, my Internet has been down since Thursday night and I got on yesterday afternoon to 200 something e-mails and a half-dozen PM's here. Sorry I couldn't Moderate more timely Clarissa, and I still haven't read the disputed threads and arguments. I have read THIS one though, since we are trying to decide how best to moderate the Farrier Forum. I DO appreciate Dennis' comments about Moderation and Alex's points. We try to run this forum for the education and enjoyment of the members and NOT as a battleground for different personalities.

Erin mentioned this to me as a potential method of helping those who can't seem to express their opinion without rudeness:

appellativo

Clarissa

Newfman

Interesting definition of Expert. I'll have to try to remember that one.

In defense of shoes, around here, there are quite a lot of teamsters, that have twitch horses and do low impact logging. These drafts are usually shod with some pretty interesting devices. They are for traction. Personally, I would rather add another horse, if traction was an issue, but, that is just me.

A couple years ago, I gave a set of snow chains to a friend of mine because his big turbo diesel truck had trouble plowing his steep driveway, with rear chains only. It was a traction issue, and we get a lot of icing here. I told him, that Cummins and tranny weighs 2000 lbs more than a gas engine, do not force the truck with traction devices on! It didn't take long for him to try to push a snow and ice bank that wouldn't move, with a truck, that wouldn't slip. The front driveshaft twisted like a pretzel and snapped, in the blink of an eye. So, when your draft horse is no longer losing traction and the logs won't budge, and you keep driving your team on....what part do you guess will "pop". But hey, it is about the logs and the $$'s right!?!?!? You can get a good Belgian for $500!

I also go to the Fryeburg Fair in Maine, every year. As much as I dislike competitive pulling, which I liken to truck and tractor pulls, I have to say, that the pulling horses generally have very nice hoof conformation along with their traction shoes. Of course, has anyone been to a truck and tractor pull, where there wasn't some yahoo throttling his truck into self destruction? I haven't.

On the other hand, the show drafts, and the show hitch drafts are all shod. People that find competitive pulling disgusting, just love to watch the pretty horsees pulling the wagon. Look how big and bold and beautiful they are, and they trot with such pizzazz and flare. Their owners must love them very much. How wonderful! What they don't understand is, The are shod in gargantuan scotch bottom shoes, with extremely forward breakovers. These "farriers" that shoe them will even weld a shoe, inside a scotchbottom shoe, to make the hoof look even bigger. Then a filler is used to "dress it up" and make it look 'real'. What it looks like is a huge flared foot, painted gloss black.

These horses commonly trip and stumble when tired, as they have trouble 'getting over' their own feet. I have watched them canter as the rest of the 8 horse hitch was "trotting" because they are too short stridded to comfortably trot. That little 'canter' allows them to hop into the next step. So, not all farriers have the horses best interests at heart. I also guarantee you that a horse that is not presented to show like this, will not win. Owners of horses can be quite ignorant, and not have a clue as to how a hoof works. There are plenty of farriers that either don't know, or don't care. I have people come to my house, and notice that my draft horses feet are kind of weird looking. "They look...normal". It is so common to see big platters, of flared cracked and chipped hooves, that people think that that is how they are supposed to be.

I was led to believe by my Equine Vet, that a horse has to be in a founder stance to be considered laminitic. IR and Cushings horses can only get laminitis on pasture. Yup, there is a lot of bad info out there. So I have done my research, replaced my Vet, and take a different view of grazing, laminitis, and flat feet. So there are even ignorant Veterinarians. Go figure.

So, the 'barefoot movement' as some call it, actually has started to open people's eyes to alternative ways of thinking. There are extremes in both camps. Strasser trimmers come to mind. The interest in barefoot, has compelled the scientific community to perform research into other aspects of horse care. Nutrition being one of them, and their nutrition testing, lasts longer than 3 weeks and 2 days. Maybe because it takes longer than that to grow a hoof, and you cannot really affect the existing hoof. You can't un-ring a bell. Furthering laminitis studies is another. Hopefully, all the research and educating of horse owners and horse show spectators will wake enough people up, to allow the passing of legislation that prevents some of the cruel shoeing techniques that are performed for no other reason than to be entertaining to spectators. This includes oversize scotch bottoms shoes, and the extreme wedging of Tennessee walking horses for shows. You have to be a pretty twisted individual to 'know how the hoof functions' yet apply these shoeing techniques anyways. They give good farriers a bad name. And when you mention barefoot, these crap farriers will scream protests the loudest.

I haven't actually seen much in the way of scientific research or published papers on how a good footed horse, actually benefits from shoes. Most things just say that it does. The phrase, "It supports the hoof" is thrown around as an answer, but that doesn't actually say anything, does it? As if it is the accepted thing, or it must be so. I'm not buying it. But, if a hoof needs to held together to heal, I'm all for it. They were shoeing horses in the 'medieval days' and I seriously doubt a lot of "science" was applied to the practice. The process has changed so little. There are plenty of interesting designs though! You could spend a whole afternoon looking at all the variations of how a piece of steel is shaped to accomplish a certain purpose. It isn't really science, as much as it is creativity, but that is my opinion, and again, your mileage may vary. But if it helps your horse go, more power to you. I have to ask though, with these great big cleats, or angle brackets on pulling horses shoes, what happens at the end of the day, when work is done? They can't exactly take them off and put them in the closet, now can they?

On race tracks, why shoe to get traction on the surface? Why not create a surface, that works with the foot? Especially in Standardbred races! Heck, they hardly even side load! They pull what, .25g's? Big deal.

A friend of ours rides Gran Prix. Her horse is not allowed in the pasture, or around any other horse unsupervised, or not separated by a barrier. She cannot afford for her $65,000 horse to get an injury. He wears egg bar shoes for "Drive" in the ring. 95% of this horses time is spent in a rubber matted stall, or in his little 12x20 attached paddock. So, his shoes are designed to help him 5 percent of the time on arena footing, and the rest of the time they don't 'help' him at all. They are practically the anti-hoof mechanism shoe, of shoes. His bulging, swollen looking hoof walls in his hind feet, just say, hey, this ain't right. But, hey, it ain't about the horse is it? (that was a rhetorical question.)

That is why we came to this forum isn't it? For the horse? So, it should be a place to exchange views, ideas, opinions, and experiences, without the back biting b.s. that is so enjoyed on the horseshoers forum. To see if there are either 'better ways' or alternative ways of treating, training, and maintaining our horses.

Kim Cassidy

Newfman

How many are required to be allowed to post an opinion?

PasoBaby_CarolU

*** Kim and Dennis, please take your fight to the ARGUMENT thread, and let this thread get back on subject. ***

Newfman

Not necessary, it is done.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Newfman

Sorry, I didn't see the new playground. Good idea I think.

Kim Cassidy

rotate88

learningthedance

Newfman

Well I had to go to the play ground after all. Oh well. See, I have wasted a perfectly good day with this annoying BS. The enjoyment has truly been sucked out of it for me. I don't like how it makes me feel about myself. A big change needs to be forthcoming.

Anyhow, on the brighter side for the moment...

Dave, that is too cool. I know someone that just did the same thing. Except he plays guitar. Exceptional guitar. I play an exceptional guitar....not exceptionally. He (John Cote) plays in a group called Wake the Neighbors. Celtic music. Very good stuff. I think you can find him through google if you like really good Celtic music, and Ed is a trememdous fiddle player. One of those that doesn't practice, hears a little of what you are playing, and joins in like you have rehearsed it a hundred times. I play Celtic Fingerstyle guitar, and it gave me a real appreciation for true musicians. Play on!

Your music is classical then? Jazz? Is there a place to hear it online?

thelmanelle

Newf,
So at least we know you respect men...i.e. Dr. Dave

PasoBaby_CarolU

I just spent 3 delightful hours with my farrier. A delightful man, happy, never rude, very gentle with my horses. I am SOOO happy.

4theloveofjake

I love my farrier too. Kind, gentle, willing to talk for hours and explain and answer questions and natural with the horses too. A good farrier is such a pleasure to have !

alexwein

I also love my farrier. I asked him about the philosophy of going barefoot and he had a very measured response about it. Even suggested a local group who educate people about hooves and trimming their own horses. Me, I'm learning more and more about it and will always make my own decisions, but am at present happy to trust his 30+ years of experience, as well as his integrity. He's also great with Dakota and has really helped me educate her about getting her feet done. A really good guy--I know I'm lucky!

appellativo

I just got told by my friends who I trim for that their friend/trainer/who also trims her own horses, really likes how I trim their horses' hooves. Suzy (the friend/trainer/trimmer) keeps trying to send business my way, if only I'd take it. I just don't have the time to do it (plus I'll admit, for me it's very taxing physically!). So, it's nice also to BE appreciated. So, go hug your farrier (or at least flatter them if they've earned it), it makes their day brighter

alexwein

appellativo

Well, if a hug is not appropriate, five extra bucks will do!

Clarissa

I love my farrier too!! It’s something I need to repeat like a mantra apparently!
Well people keep telling me I have to learn to love myself!!

Clarissa

alexwein

alexwein

spurrit

Clarissa

spurrit

I'm short tempered because I don't want strangers hugging me? Why do I need to start a topic about me?

Clarissa

spurrit

Well, being as I'm not your pet monkey, I won't be doing that. And no, I'm not Rick Burton. He's a horse's ass.

I'm just someone who's made their living with horses most of their life. I shoe horses, ride some colts, used to work on ranches and work for outfitters as well as working for reining trainers and rodeoing. My opinions are my own, and based on observations of what I've seen that worked or didn't.

RickB.

bit

I kinda like horses asses. Always appeciated a good butt on a horse. I don't think Rick is a human ass though. He's pretty passionate about horses feet, and he has some strong opinions. I can't trim because my back is so messed up, but it doesn't keep me from learning everything I can about this. The whole time my farrier is doing his thing, I'm asking questions, and he's happy to tell me why this, why not that, and what he's doing. I learn a lot here, too. File some stuff, trash some stuff (like bickering) although there have been some funny zingers at times. The bottome line, I learn a ton from this thread, from your experiences, pics, trials and sad endings. Think we are lucky to have some good, knowledgeable folks here. I don't mind the usual banter. I have no intention of hugging my farrier. Too sweaty. But I am giving him a Christmas gift and I make sure he knows he's a blessing for me and my horses. I think my farrier would laugh at the easy bake oven comment regarding the Epona's. He is probably of the same opinion, but he also is willing to keep an open mind and give them a try. His priority is what makes the horse comfortable. What works. What doesn't, and he never gives up. That makes for a good farrier, to me anyway. I'd like to see less mean spirited comments, and a lot more pearls.

whisperingwindfarms

I'm an ass girl myself which explains why I am still so madly in love with Dan Thompson . . .

Heavy sigh . . .

karmikacres

Good trimmer and good hugger.

That's why I have a waiting list

PasoBaby_CarolU

spurrit

Sorry, Mrs. Nudell, I didn't intend to start a pie fight with Rick. I'll try to refrain in the future.
I'm sure now, we'll have a nice big pie fight with two different (pro/anti Rick) factions.
I was just annoyed at people thinking I was him. I'm nowhere NEAR that rude and tactless.

appellativo

Last warning on the name calling, please oh please lets not go down this road again.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I removed the profanity from Rick's reply and released it from moderation. I imagine he is at work and missed the PM.

Erin has made a very GOOD point. We can discuss, argue, etc. to our hearts content with no need to be RUDE. Deb is right, I prefer pearls to dog turds. That said, if you two want to FIGHT, there is an un-Moderated thread at the top of the Farrier forum, where you can fight to your heart's content. You just can't use a few very bad words there.

Please keep it out of the rest of the forum and we'd ALL appreciate pearls.

There will be no more warnings on this subject you two.

RickB.

misstux

I never thought I'd find myself siding with Rick B., but I do about spurrit. Our behavior defines us as human beings. It, rather than the words we use to tell people we are, tells people who we are. Hiding behind a forum identity while making snarky comments and not telling people your name say a whole lot about you as a person.

Melody Sorensen

Clarissa

Hey Rick, I cringed when I saw what Spurrit wrote! It was not my intention to infer that Spurrit was you. (the construction of the posts was totally different anyway)

But really I’m glad to see you back. Even if you are brashly & abruptly direct & to the point & a pain to read at times,

we all learn something from every post which eventually builds into a complete picture. Learning from many people allows us to develop the tools to solve our specific problems & circumstances.

That’s what forums are all about. Also I know how frustrating it is to be totally pedantic about something.

RickB.

PasoBaby_CarolU

Sorry about the time thing Rick. To be honest, I rarely read this forum and so frequently don't see your posts until you or someone else tells me there is one here. Sometimes I am gone for a few days and don't check the forum at all. So, sometimes it is just a bad time. My apologies...

RickB.

No apologies necessary, Carol.
It is what it is and we do what we do.

America, what a country.