Working with a new horse

lizloveshorses · Working with a new horse

Hey guys, I need to pick your brains for "where to start."

I'm headed out to the barn for the first time in two months. My trainer called me about a rescue OTTB, 15 years old, who she can't afford to keep because the horse is not earning her keep. The trainer is working with the local college riding team and only her best girls can "sort of" ride her. Cathy tells me that she jiggs when getting on and she's pretty hard to control in the saddle. What she says is she is willing to keep her until the end of October, and unless she becomes a horse that can be ridden, she'll have to give her away. She called me because she thinks the horse needs some TLC and a person who can give her a lot of time and effort. I believe I can be that person.

I can't afford to take her but I'm looking forward to working with her this afternoon. I wonder where to start. Start with the 7 games and see where she is? Is today just a test to see where she is? My gut instinct is to just see what she knows on the ground and in the saddle and then make a game plan. But if anyone has any suggestions on what to look for, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!

ErinR76

See which quarters are sticky; can you freely move the hq on both sides? forequarters? Can you get her relaxed by twirling the poll? Check her saddle fit. If she's antsy about people getting on, she's anticipating some sort of unpleasantness. Could be the saddle, or the headgear; could be she's just not able to be psychologically tolerant of poor riders. Start with the basics, the foundation stuff. Find out what it is that bothers her. Don't see what you can get her to do...look at it from HER point of view. Find out when she was last working well (if ever) and if it's changed, find the variable and it could be a physical one.

Give us details on what she 'does wrong' when the 'best girls' ride her.

I feel that some horses are really tolerant and willing and able to fill in for green riders, and some horses are super sensitive that need a really mentally and spiritually stable person who has a lot to offer them. They work better with one person who is like that.

IMO it would be unfair to try to do a complete eval to 'see where she is at.' That sort of sets her and you up for failure doesn't it? Wouldn't it be best to have a plan like you would to start a colt, and just carry through with a training session? I don't know. It's not like I have any experience in this matter; but every clinician I've seen work with a troubled horse, they didn't do an evaluation of a lot of different points, find some that failed, move onto check the next thing, and then come back to fix something. They just got started working on something, a foundation type exercise.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I always start at the beginning...Level 1, seven games. Go through the whole program. The things the horse knows you'll sail past, but you'll also find all the things the horse doesn't know and will be able to cross them off your list.

BTW - if you go down the main forum to each Level Forum, you'll find a sticky at the top with a simple list of all the tasks. Just print them out and check them off.

learningthedance

And don't forget to just spend a day doing absolutely nothing with her. Undemanding time can be worth it's weight in gold. Wonder how many times someone has ever really given her a chance to get to to know them on her terms?? Sounds like a great project!! Can't wait to hear the details.

bit

Probably do water hole rituals and a good ground work system that works for you and the horse. Parelli is a good one, but my arab hated it. He was more of a Brent Graef guy. Eclipse doesn't like Parelli, and hates that cs. Bit is ok with it as long as I stay soft and ask. Keep it simple, get to know the horse, and what works for him. You may end up with a little Parelli, a little Cynthia Royal, a little Buck...so play. Have fun. Laugh a lot. Bring a boom box and dance, be silly!

Clarissa

Liz, the mare is bored bored bored! I’ll bet she lives in a pen or stable or small area where she can’t gallop or stretch her muscles running fast. She was bred to run & that’s all she knows as a means to break the boredom. A person used to jump onboard & she was cantered & galloped around a track. So now when a person jumps onboard she wants to do the same thing.

7games as everyone says, find the sticky bits like Erin says, UDT like Elise says, WHR like Bit says & I say find her somewhere to run freely at liberty! As she responds to all the other things & finds new things to occupy her mind she will loose the need to gallop so much & do all that jiggy joggy each time someone climbs in the saddle. You can’t hold her in & expect her to stop trying. The more you try to suppress that behaviour the more she will find ways to do it or other ways to vent her exasperation & energy overload.

I would not ride her at all until she is beginning to slow down in the mind as a response to the 7games, UDT, WHR, getting more exercise, etc.

Malcolm

Liz, this is an area where I have a lot of experience but have learnt something more of late from reading the Dorrance brothers.

Clarissa has a point that she needs to do what she has been bred and born to do. Work her in the round pen or lunge rope for some time until she has settled and shoes a willing a calm attitude before climbing on. After she has had plenty of fastish movement on a ride movement and hots up and wants to jig at the walk, make that very uncomfortable by making your seat jar out of time with her movement. When she gives you a few steps of calm walk, let your seet come into a comfortable rhythym with hers. The number of steps at the walk will gradually increase as she finds the walking more comfortable and rewarding. Enjoy having your hair blown back by her. I love hot horses.

Malcolm

ErinR76

I love the philosophy that many smart trainers have by saying don't stop the movement, direct the movement. I really love the 'dance step' we were taught in the buck clinic, that gets their feet moving but not in a straight line, and while you do it you not only take care of the excess energy, but you get them supple (as opposed to sticky/bracy), coordinated and even-cadenced. It's in the 'whats your most important exercise to do with your horse' thread on here somewhere.

ok page two, second post down.

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about6578.html

lizloveshorses

Thanks everyone for the great advice. Didn't make it out yesterday, but I'll be out on Friday.

Erin, can you do this "dance step" in the saddle, or is it primarily a ground work concept? I'm not able to access the youtube at work. I like the idea of directing her energy because I've mainly been taught to stifle the energy. In some way I feel like Parelli does that with the phase 4's, but perhaps that's an erroneous interpretation. Your point on doing an eval is very valid. I'll be thinking about that some more this afternoon.

Malcolm, once I make sure she's got some stop to her, I'll go gallop her around and see how she does. We have a large field with some xcountry jumps and I bet that could get her moving, at least on the ground. I'm so excited to work with a new horse.

ErinR76

Oh you'd have to do it undersaddle! LOL

Make sure all her needs are met before you try to work with her the first time. I know if i grab my mare out of the stall first thing in the morning before she's had a chance to be turned out with the mares for at least ten minutes, I'm in trouble! LOL Or right before feeding time? Forget it.

bit

"The dance", or short serpintine has really helped Eclipse. I also noticed that her snakey, crooked neck goes away when I ask her to be soft. She can't do both at the same time. lol, she gets crooked when she starts stressing over "where is the herd?". Asking for softness, release, ask, release, two steps, release...does not allow for stress. Neither does the dance step!
Ya'll know I've had Shaun in the pasture since about the second week in June. Ever watch the movie, Sea Bisquit? Shaun has had the opportunity to be a horse, possibly the first time he's ever had it, and is just now easing into his place within the herd. He always kept his distance, often left them for the sanctuary of the shelter, and I could see he didn't know what was the right thing to do. He now moves in step with the herd, grazes nose to nose, and finally has learned to partake in hedge apples.
I'm pretty good at introducing treats. The racing quarter horse ranch I worked at had one rule, don't mess with the stallions. Of course, I taught them all how to eat carrots and apples. It took Shaun awhile, watching, and keeping his distance. Tuesday he joined the herd, yesterday he ate his first hedge apple.
I've been doing whr's since day one. It's time to begin our ground work, now that we have a good relationship and he trusts me. In Sea Bisquit...
He sure is fast.
He sure is, in every direction.
What do you think we need to do?
Take him home, let him be a horse.
And that they did. Still my favorite part in the movie, when Red galloped the Bisquit down that country road and let him fly. I think with these ottb's, let them be a horse, and gain their trust. The rest will come right along.

Copious_Amour

Gosh I sure wish I knew what it was like to feel that power. The power of a Thoroughbred let loose. Can you imagine? Captain won his fair share of races for Knottsberry farm in his age. Well he never once took off on me. His version of showing off was to get himself in a hugely collected forward Dressage trot. (The kind you see across the diagonal in a Dressage test.) Can you imagine though, digging your knuckles into a race horse's mane while they're in the chute? That bell ringing and having all of that muscle pounding under neath you? Gosh golly. Bet it's better than intimate moments between adults!

bit

Better than, and lasts a lot longer! I did ride my friends quarter horse on the bolting trail in Mammoth. It's the fastest I've ever gone, and it was amazing! I'm not sure who had more fun, him or me! Point is, it was fun! I think if you ask an ottb to go, make sure he's left brained and having a good time. No stress, no worry about the hurry, and did I mention fun?

ErinR76

I used to want to be a jockey. I've had a few of those all-out gallops on my horse when I was a teenager...what a blast!

Chablis

dmcamelothills

bit

We practiced a lot, moving that front end a step. We practiced a lot, moving that rear end. It helped me, when moving the rear to slide my hand way down the rein, and tip that nose. Much better rear end movement. The front end, he had us bring our hand out, then in.
Oh, and the cool thing on the front end with timiing the foot falls. When we started asking the front to move while going in a straight line about five feet from the rail, and gradully move toward the rail with each step...you have to lift the rein slightly out and in as the front foot leaves the ground, right? Ever try it? He did a lot of "You all are hopelessly late!!!!" Cindy called Chris Graef that night and asked how we could time that rein at the right time. She said, when you ride you can feel the horse's body sway back and forth as the rib cage moves side to side. I can really feel that with Eclipse. She's got a huge walk. As the rib cage moves to the right, you lift that left rein. The left foot is just leaving the ground! I could feel my rib cage bend in the same side to side motion, so when my ribs bent towards my hip, I knew to lift the rein and cue with my foot to move her foot out and over. Make sense? If you want to move the horse's back foot, your foot is slightly back, and if you want to move the front foot, you foot is slightly forward. So it's going to be a cue from your rein, from your foot and your focus. When you get it right, you can feel it. You aren't leading your horse forward and around a tiny figure 8, you are moving each foot and it really does feel like a dance.
Practicing this with just a step, and then asking for two steps and so on is very important. Just like asking for softness, you release the moment the thought hits the horse's mind. Build on it from there. Really release, too.

lizloveshorses

Thank you all for your great tips. Our first meeting went well. I'm looking forward to working with her. She has a ton of brace and she acts just like an OTTB without a lot of work on her. She jiggles around because that's what she thinks she is supposed to do. I would rate her a low-energy RBE, but she's not reactive, nor dull, but she is incredibly intelligent.

I'm going to spend the next few weeks working on ground suppling exercises for her. I really wish I had a round pen right now. If anyone has any suggestions for what exercises might help (Karen Rohlf's 'moving massage' is one, as well as Parelli 'hill therapy' because she has absolutely no topline) I would be grateful to hear the suggestions.

ErinR76

I highly recommend Buck Brannaman's groundwork video. It has many exercises to release the brace and teach a horse how to do basic maneuvers. One of them (changing eyes) is to build in trust on the part of the horse with the human.

PS If you prefer, he covers the exercises in the book Groundwork but of course video is good because you can see it in motion.

lizloveshorses

I'm going to try to get my hands on the vid, but it's also a matter of being able to afford it right now. I'm combing through Ebay as we speak.

I saw her again today, but I now see her as an RBI so we just spent some time together. I did some massage with her, trying to release the brace while she was in the paddock, and then did some exercises to get her to lower her head. By the end she was much softer. I took off her halter and meditated in the sun for a few minutes and let that be that. Work with her mind, and then work with her body.

Attached is a picture. As you can see, she is still very skinny. The picture makes her look skinnier than she is in person. I don't remember if I mentioned, but she hadn't been fed for about 4 months before she arrived at my barn. I'm calling her Callie.

bit

She's even thinner than Shaun was in Washington right out of the kill pen. Once she puts on some weight she'll probably be a bit more confident. Shaun was pretty introverted when he got here. I think they feel very vunerable like that. She may show you a different side once she gets some groceries in that condition. Shaun came in rbe and is settling nicely into his lbi-ness. Kelsey suggested starting him on some ulcer gaurd before he shipped. I'm thinking that helped him quite a bit. He's looking really good, joined up nice with the herd, and is doing a lot better at respecting boundaries. He was pretty pushy at meal time, poor guy. Give her time. Sounds like you are doing great.

Copious_Amour

She is so stunning. Look at how beautiful her coat is in her condition! Can't image how breath taking she will be with even more weight. She is so beautiful and so lucky to have you in her life.

ErinR76

she is a pretty girl. So they let you bring her home to your place? When did she arrive?

Malcolm

In my long distant youth, I worked as an assistant racehorse trainer/breeder doing everything including work riding. Having ridden my whole life it was then that I got seriously addicted to the rush of TBs taking off. I have since learnt that nothing on wheels can take of as fast and generate the same G-forces. So this is probably why I am a polo addict since it involves plenty of take offs and horse races to the ball. Most TBs love it because it involves lots of what they love and that is running.

My old Anglo-Arab used to prance about and be impossible hacking, but put him onto the field for a chukka and he'd become very sensible since he know that what he was looking for was coming and he'd better conserve his energy and use it wisely.

I have just figured how to post pics, so here are some of our mad red-headed mares after that Christmas ride in my avatar.

Flame is in front - an Anglo-Arab whose grandfather Homeguard retired unbeaten onthe South African racetrack. She is my favourite red head and Eidin my Irish flame is jealous of how we dance together. I will do a video and post it sometime. Next to her is Mystic Jade whose father was a Champion senior sprinter in Britain whose father Iktamal, carrying the second colours of Maktoum Al Maktoum, broke the six-furlong course record in the 1996 Haydock Sprint Cup. That record still stands. Iktamal was tricky to handle. Eidin spoke to his grooms at Stallion Day at Summerhill Stud where he still lives a nice retirement, no longer serving mares but doing farm chores. They said all his daughters are crazy. Mystic confounded many a trainer and rider when I sold her and made her way back to us. She smashes through any tackle and brings out the white of the oppositions eyes in polocrosse which she loves. South Africa recently won the Worl Cup in Britain and the captain was clearly coveting her at a coaching clinic shortly before then.

The liver chestnut is Sloop. Here is some script from a demo I do with the horses with Eidin commentating.

lizloveshorses

I don't have a farm, unfortunately. She's at my trainer's which is only a half an hour drive from me.

My trainer came down yesterday to talk to me. I told her I wasn't willing to get on her back yet because she didn't have any topline and her response was "Well I've been having girls riding her for a couple of months. I just don't have anyone consistent to put time into her. She's fine." You've seen the picture. She's not fine. Neither are her feet, but the last time I commented to her about the state of one of her horses hooves: "The toes look long," she said "he was just done." Okay, well that doesn't mean anything. His toes are still really long. Our farrier is the son of a very very wonderful farrier who died some years ago, and the son did not pick up his father's talent.

She also said she was fine on the ground, and I'm thinking to myself "this horse pushes me around, doesn't stop when I stop, pushes, and can't stand still. Fine on the ground?" But I got my hands on Buck's groundwork video and I can already tell that we're going to make great strides in the next week or so. I'm still waiting for a while to get on her so she can trust me more.

becdubie

Doesn't sound like your "trainer" knows much about horses minds..... GRRR...
She's a rider....not a horseman, like you.

Sounds like a really tough situation for you to be in Liz....hang in there you'll probably have to bite your tongue so you can help this horse. Stay safe.

Malcolm

Its a pity you can't bring her home Liz. I was not hijacking your thread but just encouraging you by showing you our horses two of which were ordered to be shot for being too hot and one who pushed Parelli people around so much that they lost their nerve with her. Its not the Parelli but the way it was applied that was the problem and hot horses can be a challenge. I agree that you sound more clued up than your "trainer".

Keep us posted on progress.

Malcolm

bit

Isn't it interesting, rider vs. horseman? I'm not claiming to be a horseman, but when I was a rider, I knew I was missing the point. I had no clue what "it" was. "It" appears to be a life time journey, and so much better than being a passenger on a reluctant equine. Glad you know the difference, and this sweet horse will too. Hoping you keep her and she never has to experience anything else.

ErinR76

What do you mean by 'your trainer?' Could you spell out your relationship with the trainer?

You said you were thinking, "fine on the ground? She pushes into me, doesn't stop when I stop, etc...." Don't be shy saying these things. Your knowledge is valid and it is applicable to the situation. When you have a glowing chance like that to point out that your definition of 'fine on the ground' means certain things, you need to spell that out for her. Not in a know it all tone of voice but don't be shy of saying it. Don't expect everyone to agree with you, but at least stick up for yourself and your ideals. You can't make her get a different farrier if its not your horse but you can define for her your statement when you say 'the toes are too long,' by offering to email her an article on the definition of 'too long.' People need to know stuff and you aren't there to try to convert people, but you can at least be a beacon in the dark, and they can follow it or not.

Here, print this out there and leave it on the bulletin board

LOL

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/JW_Toes.pdf

lizloveshorses

Erin, excellent question. I call Cathy my trainer because I don't have more accurate vocabulary. I've been riding with "trainers" since I was about 6 years old. I showed in the pony division and we were rather successful, and when I aged out of smalls, the market crashed and my parents could no longer afford to keep me in horses they way they thought I wanted: showing. I stopped riding for almost my entire high school career, and when I went to University I joined the riding program there. They didn't put me on the team because I didn't fit, but I took lessons for two semesters. When I returned home after my freshman year I called Cathy, who is also a family friend, and asked if I could come out and ride. She said yes, and she gave me a few lessons that summer, but I really learned the most from my friend Joanna and her horse Spencer. I found Parelli during the same summer, and Jo was nice enough to let me try it out on Spencer. I went back to school for my sophomore year and my riding had improved a lot, but I never felt like they wanted me there, so I left. During winter break and summer break I went back out to Cathy's to work the barn and ride horses. At this point I was not getting lessons from her and I was riding in exchange for barn work.

I continued to ride during the summers and now I just graduated so this is my first time being home during the school year. Cathy now hosts a local college riding team and so there are swarms of girls there. Cathy was a good rider in her day. Her husband also rides and shows, as did her daughter. But I would agree and say she is not, nor has ever been, a horsewoman.

I don't feel intimidated by her, but I know how a conversation would go if I brought up any of my thoughts with her. She wouldn't hear me. Cathy tends to be the kind of person who hears what she wants to hear and responds to what she wants to respond. Sometimes I feel like I don't even have to be there for her to be having whatever conversation she is having with me. It doesn't bother me because it also allows for a *lot* of freedom. I mean, I get to ride her top show horses and work with her other horses for free! I don't expect a conversation about horsemanship to go anywhere because I know she is disdainful towards it. I'm only there because I'm a "last hope." This might have bothered me at some point, but I'm so thrilled that I get to work with a horse the way I want that I am fine that there might be some peanut gallery comments.

I wish I could keep her, but I can't afford it. I just graduated college. I live at home. I'm working two jobs, but that's not helping me much. I'm saving for graduate school next fall. Having a horse right now is simply out of the question. She is such a sweetheart though. She's not even that hot! She has very very soft energy, and she only gets keyed up when she's not paying attention the leader. A lot of times she'll just run around me when I stop. She's really sticky at hindquarter disengagement, classic RB tendency. She starts moving and she doesn't know to stop. And this is just at the walk! We've been doing a lot of stick to me as well as disengagement the way Buck teaches. She was really good by the end of the session, even though I didn't have much time to work with her this afternoon. When someone gets on her back, she forgets that that person is the leader and so she just starts to go again. But she's not even that quick or scary. She needs micromanagement at this level, but that's not getting to her mind or her feet. It makes her feel claustrophobic. I just rode that once, but I see a lot more now that I'm on the ground and I know getting on her back is just going to have her confused. Once we get 'go,' and 'woah,' equal on the ground we'll work on being on board.

Well, sorry about the novel. I appreciate you guys sticking around!! It's really lovely to come home and be able to tell others about your day with horses and then receive thoughtful responses.

ErinR76

Thanks for the explanation, it helps to paint a complete picture. Yes it is a blessing to be able to have horses in your life and not have to really have the expense of it, so lucky you!

I am sure that once you and the mare have a mutual understanding and rapport, you will get her mind. Yes I would definitely work to gain that on the ground because once you get her mind and united on the ground, it will translate to the saddle. Well I think so anyways! Keep us updated! I love the squishy thread and this one should be exciting too!

lizloveshorses

Cami and I have been working together for three weeks now and we've made some fabulous progress. A friend of mine loaned me some 'gummy reins'. They are made of black adjustable elastic and rest on the poll. You feed the snap ends through the bit, then back to a surcingle, or a saddle. It encourages stretching without the force of draw reins which have no give. This has been very beneficial for her. It's teaching her to stretch through her back and to use her hind quarters in a way that encourages stretching through her shoulders. Her transitions have improved tenfold and she is becoming more and more balanced as time goes on.

We've been peppering in some undemanding time, as well as some relaxing riding time. After the sessions on the circle, I'll switch her back into a rope halter and a 12ft line, tie the 12ft at her chin, and mount up bareback while she grazes. She's starting to realize it's "no big deal." I'm thinking of saddling her over the weekend.

The past two sessions we've had have filled my heart with joy. She has been going out at night with her friend Serena, and so after we work together I take them both out. Cami walks away from me when I take her halter off, but then she meets me at the corner of the pasture closest to the barn. I climb on the top rail and she presents her itchy spots to me. Funniest thing I ever saw was when she started backing up to me. How obvious do you get?? The first time, she felt like she needed to leave and so she did. The second time was a bit different.

I scratched her, but she also lined herself up perfectly with the fence so that I could get on. I did. She stood calmly and I continued to scratch her. I got off, sat back on the fence, rubbed her some more, got back on, got back off. She is 'at liberty' and could throw me any time she liked, but she didn't. I was honored. After I dismounted a second time, I sat back on the fence and waited. She was close enough that I could touch her, but I sensed she went introverted and needed me to to just be there. I sat and waited, watched the sun set, breathed in the evening. After ten minutes or so, she finally blew out, licked, chewed, and came to me for some rubs. I had to leave not long after that, but I finally felt the understanding that comes with having an RBI and how -long- you need to wait sometimes.

Today is the 20th and as Cathy had told me, I had until the end of October to get her ridable. I walk into the barn today and Cam is wearing a brand new blanket. This is a good sign, I'm thinking, so I decide to talk to Cathy and let her know that she can be the horse Cathy wants, she just needs more time. And apparently I have been granted that time. I said 'I can't get her ready by the end of October, but if you give me through winter, we will have something.' And Cathy sighed and said 'Well, you see she has a blanket. And I got her vaccinated.' So Cam is here to stay! (For now...) And she is "mine." No one else rides her, and everyone calls me the 'horse whisperer.' The barn workers call her mine. Cathy says 'your horse.' And in spirit and heart she is!

ErinR76

Aaaaawwww

misstux

What great news!

lizloveshorses

Here are a couple of pictures of us working together. I came out on Saturday and she was in the pasture napping, so I lay down and rested with her. She was startled when I came close, but then she went back to sleep when she knew it was me. She lost a shoe, so I asked the farrier to pull her shoes, but he obviously has no idea how to trim a barefoot horse and so she is sore and her feet still look pretty bad. Getting Cathy to get a barefoot trimmer out there is like pulling teeth, so her shoes probably need to go back on for the time being. Obviously if she were mine this wouldn't be an issue and I'd call someone else to come look at her. But she's not. So I'm working with what I've got. She already had barefoot back feet and they are gorgeous.

ErinR76

Looks nice!