WP

toreolau · WP

Well, since the last thread on this was stopped, I'll start this one.
Why?
Because I live in Norway.
Here are few western horses, and even fewer shows. I know nothing about WP except for what I see in these videos, and I would really really love to be educated on how traveling in this manner could possibly be good for a horse. I am not that experienced in horses compared to many of you. So here is your chance... Give me a good feeling about this WP thing.

Niek

topic moved to more appropriate section. I would like to ask people to keep it somewhat civil and dont start taking things to personal please

Niek

kristenhorseluv

Ok, I'll play along and see how long I can last. This was taken directly from the 2009 AQHA Handbook, granted what is in fashion does not match what is described below and I realize that. I don't do what's in fashion, nor have I ever.

The following terminology is a description of western pleasure
gaits:

The Walk
(1) Poor walk - uneven pace and no cadence. Has no flow
and may appear intimidated or appear to march.
(2) Average walk - has a four-beat gait, level top-line and
is relaxed.
(3) Good walk - has a flowing four-beat gait, level topline,
relaxed and is bright and attentive.

The Jog
(1) Extremely poor jog - cannot perform a two-beat gait
and has no flow or balance in the motion.
(2) Very poor jog - hesitates in the motion. Does not keep
an even and balanced motion or a level top-line. May appear to shuffle.
(3) Poor jog - average motion but has negative characteristics such as; walking with the hind legs, dragging the rear toes or
taking an uneven length of stride with the front and rear legs.
(4) Correct or average jog - has a two-beat gait, a level
top-line and a relaxed appearance.
(5) Good jog - has an average motion with positive characteristics
such as balance and self-carriage while taking the same
length of stride with the front and rear legs.
(6) Very good jog - is comfortable to ride while having a
consistent two-beat gait. The horse guides well, appears relaxed and
has a level top-line.
(7) Excellent jog - effortless and very efficient motion.
Swings the legs yet touches the ground softly. Confident, yet soft
with its motion while being balanced and under control. Moves flat
with the knee and hock and has some cushion in the pastern. Has a
bright and alert expression and exhibits more lift and self-carriage
than the “very good jog”.

Moderate Extended Jog
(1) Poor extended jog - never lengthens the stride and
may appear rough to ride.
(2) Average extended jog - moves up in its pace and
appears smooth to ride.
(3) Good extended jog - has an obvious lengthening of
stride with a slight increase in pace while exerting less effort and
appears smooth to ride.

The Lope
(1) Extremely poor lope - does not have a three-beat gait.
Has no flow, rhythm or balance. Uncomfortable to ride.
(2) Very poor lope - appears to have a three-beat lope but
has no lift or self-carriage. The horse shuffles, has no flow and bobs
his head, giving the appearance of exerting a great deal of effort to
perform the gait. Also may appear uncomfortable to ride.
(3) Poor lope - has an average motion but exhibits negative
characteristics like head bobbing, not completing the stride with
the front leg and leaving the outside hock well behind the horse’s
buttocks.
(4) Average lope - has a true three-beat gait with a level
top-line and very little head and neck motion. He is relatively
straight (not over-canted), guides well and has a relaxed appearance.
(5) Good lope - has an average motion but exhibits positive
characteristics in his performance like self-carriage, a steady topline,
relaxed appearance and is responsive to the rider’s aids.
(6) Very good lope - has more lift and flow than the average
horse. He has a strong but smooth drive from behind. He may
bend his knee slightly yet still has a level top-line while exhibiting
self-carriage with a relaxed appearance. Appears comfortable to ride.
(7) Excellent lope - has a round back with an effortless
strong, deep stride with the rear legs and a flat swing with the front
legs. He keeps a level top-line, a relaxed yet alert and confident
appearance and is correct but soft. A special horse with a great degree
of lift and self-carriage.

The Back-Up
(1) Poor back-up - is resistant and heavy in front. May
gap the mouth and throw his head or back crooked.
(2) Average back-up - backs straight and quietly with
light contact and without hesitation.
143
(3) Good back-up - displays balanced and smooth flowing
movements. Backs straight with self-carriage without gapping
the mouth with light contact and without hesitation.

I'm not sure where Jill is on any of these since I've not ridden in so long. Her lope is 3 beat and her jog is 2 as is described above. I would say my biggest issue is consistency, she speeds up and then slows down and then speeds up and then slows down but I know the only way to fix that is time.

Here's a wikipedia doc about AQHA Western Pleasure, that I found interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_pleasure

I think the AQHA is making an effort to change the perception of western pleasure. Whatever gets hot on the AQHA circle will trickle to the Paints and Appaloosas. The Quarter Horses seem to take the lead on this stuff, so the fact they are trying to lead the discipline back to a better place is nice. I'm not sure how successful it has been as I haven't seen a show in a long time but judging from the youtube videos I've seen it doesn't seem there's been much change. I can say that the last AphC worlds I went to the guy that won the Senior Western Pleasure came off the rail and passed someone at the lope and the jog. I realize that seems like nothing but it's about the biggest taboo and quickest way to get yourself scratched off every judge's card, or it was. It was nice to see one of the top trainers do something different. I'm not sure if it had any effect on ApHC western pleasure since that was the last ApHC show I showed in. I actually was so impressed by what he did that I bought his training video which I promptly resold, it was crap.

I hunted and hunted for the videos AQHA put out publicly and sent to all the judges but I couldn't find them...if anyone else can, I'd love to see them again as I can't remember at all what they were like but they were supposed to show the descriptions of the above handbook information.

Gismo

kristenhorseluv

Yeah, I noticed that. That's why I couldn't find them. I'll e-mail them and see where they are housed.

kristenhorseluv

Ok, I found this. The video is all about western pleasure....

http://www.youtube.com/AQHAmarketing

PasoBaby_CarolU

There was a segment in there, where they showed video of Western Pleasure from back in the days when I showed in this class. Ideally, I think this is a wonderful class and in those days, it was. I just don't like what 'fad' has changed it into.

What I see is a lack of animation in the horses. All the gaits are demonstrated with a lack of expression in the horse....they look like sticks walking, trotting, and loping. This is the 'ideal'.

I watched Arabian Western Pleasure yesterday at the show and although the horses aren't as stoic looking as the QH's, they are still sticks in the exact same shape and bend (way under bent) regardless of gait.

I am not going to claim any high ground here, Paso Fino Pleasure is not my idea of what a "pleasure" horse is.

I do think the problem with ALL animal shows (includes other species), is that the human mind decides what is ideal and breeds, trains and shows to that standard, rather then take what Nature has already made ideal, and showing it to it's best.

It is hard to look at today's Quarter Horse and imagine that THIS:

http://www.frankhopkins.com/mustangcolor.html

is what it started out looking like.

dmcamelothills

I cannot claim any more sanity in the Morgan WP classes any more either. It was 15+ years ago that I worked for a Morgan Farm and what was WP then was real. Now it is a digusting copy of AQHA WP, the heads are a little higher, that's all. My heart broke when I saw this dignified, animated breed shuffling along forced into near non-movement.

Why Why Why does WP just seem to equal painfully SLOW and nothing more?

jwilhite

PasoBaby_CarolU

That is a little better then the other video...but the horses are still headed to the 'ideal' stick.

I know this is Reining and this horse died a few years ago, but the horse has animation, expression....you can still see the real horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaP9vWIdUtQ&feature=related

-----------------

Many years ago, my yet-to-be husband took me to the Lippizaner show. It was impressive, the horses impeccable in their show, execution and performance. But nothing that raised goose bumps.

THEN they brought out an Andalusian stallion (owned by Dean Martin) to show the heritage of the Lippizan.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

Talk about a SHOW STEALER. Here were the exact same high school moves, but the execution and performance brought tears rolling down my cheeks. This horse had FIRE and FLARE...he was animated and awesome!!!

THAT is how I got into Spanish horses.

Anyway, THAT is what I miss in WP "show horses".... no more fire.

babs

jwilhite

babs

jwilhite

Horse Gypsy

I think it is somewhat interesting to note that most of the Western tradition comes from the Spanish tradition. They were the original horseman of the West-- so it does seem like WP and all the other Western sports are somesort of mutation from the spanish school. I am not clear myself on the why or when of todays WP-- but I would bet that 50 years ago it looked a lot different. When you get down to what horse shows were originally for-- to show the breeding stock and stallions ,I think it becomes a little more clear how WP came about. I just think it is sad for horses to be stuck in an arena all the time. But heck, I like to trail ride, and I know some people don't.

kristenhorseluv

I love to trail ride, but that's Oscar's deal. Jill gets herself really upset. It's not that she's spooky so much but it stressed her out. I've tried and tried with her but she really doesn't enjoy it. She prefers learning new things, that's when she's most engaged. Oscar does best when on a trail.

Scarlet Belle

Flint is so left brain...he loves variety. The more I introduce him to...the more he is able to come out of sticky feet, Introverted.

So I try to add lots of variety.

Sonya

dmcamelothills

Thanks Babs,
I guess I just needed a slap of reality there.

Now WP is a class in just about every american breed. With the exception, I think, of naturally gaited breeds TWH, RMH, PF, etc.

So is there any breed showing this class on a national level to the qualifications that we would consider proper?
What do we WANT to see?
Just my .02

Looked up my 2 favorite, speedier, breeds and found these. I am noticing that riding with contact is apparent, and some overbending as well. Quicker, but not necessarily all that perfectly pleasurable. Both classes are at high level shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGIswtFb3rA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhX5q56oxvk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRCnR1_hTVM&feature=related

Niek

babs

Horse Gypsy

kristenhorseluv

I don't know if I agree about us breeding horses that act that way. Jill was bred to be a performance horse and that's what she is. She has an incredible aptitude for it and since what I want to do is performance based and not trail riding based she is perfect for me. I think horses have personalities like us and have aptitudes for some things just like people. Not all horses need to be able to trail ride, not all people want to trail ride. I like going for a trail ride but I'd much rather go to a show. You may much rather go on a trail ride then go to a show.

Niek

Im not talking about behaviour. Im talking about conformation. I do not see any reason behind breeding structurally downhilled stallions, the use of it is lost to me. Same goes for the Halter horses. Its completely and utterly useless if you ask me.

This is not specific to the western world btw. Dressage for example to. They breed bigger gaits and higher horses. Thats all fun and games. But ive seen horses with insane trots that couldnt walk in a proper rythem if their lives depended on it.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think they've bred shoulder problems into WP line horses, either that or they come with the training.

I think the muscling on QH halter horses is horrendous. Many of the conformation "champions" can't even be ridden, they are too straight to move comfortably.

In other breeds, the long thin neck and tiny muzzle of Arabians has gone too far IMO. They're starting to look like Seahorses.

In my breed, they seem to breed longer backs then the horse is healthy with and sickle hocks. Both so the horse gaits under itself better, but it can go too far and cause both back and leg problems. The focus is speed of footfall, and everything else is secondary.

I always worry with ANY breeding program that has one single focus.

The articles I've read on TB racing talk about them breeding for speed at the cost of longevity. Just think if the Triple Crown was reserved for 10-year-olds...how different their breeding and training programs would be.

Horse Gypsy

kristenhorseluv

Jill's not that bad at all. I can trail ride her it just stresses her out and she doesn't enjoy it like she enjoys learning new things in an arena environment. She's out all the time and always has been with no issues. She gets really upset if Oscar leaves but it's just the two of them all the time and has been for years.

And Niek, I was referring to Horse Gypsy's post in my previous post, not yours, I should have been more clear.

I agree that halter horses are horribly conformated in the stock breed industry. But I actually like Jill's conformaton and think it's quite good.

Horse Gypsy

babs

Horse Gypsy

kristenhorseluv

PasoBaby_CarolU

I don't stall any of my horses. They have 24/7 access to stalls and run-ins with pasture, except Bien who is only allowed in the arena (IR). I have one horse who is RB about trail riding, prefers the safety of the arena.

babs

Scarlet Belle

I do a variety of things with all my horses. Got Flint pulling a plow temporarily and decided a no go on that. Did a buggy with him and he does good with that. But, we spent a lot of time with stuff behind us and loud noises, etc.

So I have never had a desire to show. He is a TWH and we usually go to a field trail or trail ride.

But, this last Saturday, I broke the mold and I actually show Flint in a show... he has never been sored or shoed and he was wearing a pretty mohawk of a mane that is growing out...so you can imagine.

He was eating hay and drinking water in the shade. Use to our trailer. I did do some approach and retreat with the stuff happening.

I thought the govt. guy was going to roll his eyes at us eveytime I showed up because Flint is 8 and only been a pasture horse, basically.

Would I do this again? Yes, once a year at the same place. Why? It was fun. He did good and that was it.

Why not more often? Because, I like to come home and sleep in my own bed and he likes to be in his own pasture.

Plus, I do not think my hubby wants a horse show wife.

But, I am all for people who are kind to their horses showing. I was kind to mine. I am glad that the govt. is at the shows to see how the horses are doing. Flint was cool. He was so loved, the gentle giant. He got lots of hugs and kisses from kids and though he stop out of shock...what are we doing...with encouragement he continued and we won $30.00. Got a ribbon.

He's the best horse. But so are Jesse and John.

So I step out of the box and it was not so bad.

I know this may be a big deal, but Flint showed barefoot in 3 classes. He made people laugh. Laughter is good. He was a delight.

He did so good. Now, for the storms to start...

Sonya

cynthia peterson

I should stay out of this, but this is my observations over the years. I have showed, I have judged horse shows for years, I have went to Judging seminars, had Youth Judging Teams, several breeds of horses.

In every breed there are super horses that every other "not" talented horse has the misfortune of being artificially trained to be like that super horse. That super horse, is so breathtaking to watch that it fires up the "wanto" to have a horse like that! That is the sorry facts. I have had such a horse and that horse loved showing. He hated trail riding. He was breed for what he did and it came easy for him. I have had horses that hated showing, and they didn't have to for me. What kind of show horse would that be? Any horse can like what it is doing IF IT CAN do it and is not artificially forced to do it. What would be any different to have a horse doing what it is trained to do calmly in a show ring or a trail? It is the artificial forcing that is the issue. I hate that too. When something, any game that becomes a "blood game" to win, people who are not into for the love of having a talented horse doing what it was bred for, things can turn ugly. That is so sad. I don't think anybody on this forum is of that personality and could show successfully.

Can a western pleasure horse be done correctly? Yes, it can be done. There are plenty of bad examples. The neighbors sold a World class Western Pleasure last Fall. She was the best. They sold her for $150,000 (I'm not kidding, she was a one in a million in many ways) Probably less then 10% of the WP horses are that good. That mare is still winning happily for her young owner.

As for me, "been there. done that" and I am just having fun. But, I sure have some talented horses even if no one sees them!

kristenhorseluv

I have to say I love your post cynthia....

Jill is a people pleaser, especially me, she loves to figure out the puzzle of what I'm trying to teach her and she's taught me a lot about how to teach things because as long as I'm patient with her she'll remember it forever once she learns it. I've paid for and then not shown in classes because she was done for the day and I wanted to end on a good note (which I'm a firm believer in). At the last show I went to we had a really long day and she started to shut down. I had two more classes but she wouldn't do anything. I asked her to sidepass to the right (which she knows how to do but was refusing to do at that time) and as soon as she did it I got off, took her saddle off, and went to hose her down and massage her all over with liniment (standard post-show protocol) and Sara ran up to the show office to let them know I wouldn't be in those classes. It's not worth it to me to ruin my relationship with her just to go into a class but she still needs to realize that sometimes when I ask for things I really mean it. I wasn't going to go in and make her do a whole class but I was going to insist she sidepassed to the right. When I dismounted, she realized that really wasn't so bad maybe it wasn't worth all the fuss I was putting up over it. I know I'll never have that problem again and I know she'll still enjoy showing.

Western pleasure is a really tricky discipline because of just what you said, that one super talented horse sets the precedent for them all. Then everyone else's horses basically get forced into being as talented as that one talented horse, when they simply aren't. Oscar for example has no talent. He may make a fun games horse one day but he's really good for trail riding and not much else. I'm not trying to be cruel about him but that's the realization I've come to about him and I'm okay with that. Forcing him to do something he has no talent for is really cruel. Not every horse can be a western pleasure horse, or a hunter/jumper, or a driving horse, or whatever.

Scarlet Belle

I like what you said Kristen. When i showed with Flint...I knew we were not there to win anything. It was totally fun. He was very excepting of the atmosphere.

He's not a show horse, but he liked the variety and we had fun. That was it.

I think if you go in and don't have a attitude of anything but have fun with your horse and let him be a horse. Which we did, you'll be okay. I know the sentence stucture is terrible.

BTW, in the beer class where you hold a cup and gait your horse, I was the only one willing to allow my horse to gait...so I finally decided these people are not really doing the class correctly and I poured my cup on the ground and rode Flint at a very nice gait and passed them a few times.

He had people laughing. He was bigger than any horse there. I am grateful for the field trial class they did not ask me to dismount , walk around him and remount...we would have had to go to the fence for that....

Sonya

LyndaAtkinson

cynthia peterson

Holy cow, has anyone seen the great Cleve Wells (a Legend in Western Pleasure QH training) is banned for a year? And the horse that started it all! Apparently a owner and her Dad and a fellow trainer friend had come to see their own horse they sent to training this Spring while Cleve was at a show. The horse had huge spur sores (weeping pus even) a broken jaw, tied up. It took the owner sometime to get the QH Officials on his case but she got it done. Good for her, I am sure CW's being such a bigname with high $$ clients actually winning made it hard on her. Also, banning CW for one year (a big $$ hit for him) was good of the QH Assc. But, not near long enough. Of course, Expos cancelled him, a magazine that was going to have him as a expert.

Cleve has a DVD set out years ago (I have seen it, looked good) is a Clinician at many Expos, etc. He has trained and showed many bigtime winners. It seems all along his "methods" were not the same as those DVDs and Expo clinics. He has many young trainers who have worked with him and learned his methods over the years. All I can say is, wow.

All I can say is, go, watch your horse being trained every day you can. Step in when you see abuse. Obviously CW's abuse was well known to many. Take pictures (the owner did, right there that day) And even if a clinician "preaches" one way, make sure what goes on in "the barn" is the same.

Is it any wonder we all here are followers of Natural Horsemanship? What a world would be if everybody was a T/B Dorrance?

dmcamelothills

yes, I did hear that and hope that the owner of the horse isn't beat up over it.

Peeperpuppy

cynthia peterson

I talked to someone who is in the know about what ever happened to the Cleve Wells horse that the owner turned Cleve in for abuse. She said the horse was showed, by it's owner, and winning in WP! So~ the owner and horse didn't get bashed by other WP people. In fact, they congatulated her for turning him in and helping clean up that part of the WP world. So, how could that poor horse do it after having it's jaw broke and abused training? First off, the horse was very talented to be there in the 1sr place, CW doesn;t take untalented. But, most of all, it says a lot for the forgiving heart of the horse. And the WP personality in general..

Oh, those I know what you mean about those Andalusians! They also have a very forgiving personality. They have been really popular lately.