Wu-Wei

Niek · Wu-Wei

Also posted this around on other forums i thought where appropariate ,

So this is a copy paste but i love input and pondering about it

This is more a train of thought than a easily discuss-able subject but chime in if you want

I wouldnt consider myself religious, i am how ever intrigued and facinated by Buddhism and Taoism and some of the concepts on live they have. One of them in particular seems to tie in with our goals of becoming horsemen.

I came to "ponder" this after reading some comments about how the really good riders like for example Mr Brannaman or PK (or any other that qualifies as good in each of our personal books) Have no "dust" in their riding, and how this relates to the concept of Wu-Wei:

Wu-Wei is the art of not acting against the nature of things Wu-Wei is used in a mostly in paradox : do without doing. It can be compared with water, it flows around everything yet is strong enough to go true granite.

Random train of though of thought squirted out , please continue

jackspark

Had a Taoist thread for a while but let it go when Traci left. I'm a firm follower of all things Tao.

Love the inaction

http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about3915.html&highlight=

PasoBaby_CarolU

Interesting thought Niek. My thoughts here are a work in progress. I think Wu-wei applies to many "animal people." To Do without Doing. I think we all know many people who are totally natural with animals, and I think many of us are, as Nancy said something similar with a picture she posted a few days ago...many are "animal whisperers" without trying to be. I think it is an innate inner quality to 'be with an animal, without effort." And I think there are many people who are born with this, and who I would apply this to. There are people who are cat people, dog people, horse people, and animal people, who just naturally 'are with an animal.' I think I was born this way. I think many others here were too.

But when you talk about horse training, I think it is possible to study, even teach "horse training" and never have Wu-Wei. You see this a lot in performance. You see it a lot with working cowboys, mounted policemen, pleasure riders, the list is long of people who own and are successful with horses, who may care a great deal about their horse and excellence with training the horse, and yet never have Wu-Wei. It's just a missing element.

Pat has a saying,

Level 1: Unconscious incompetence - You don't know how little you know

Level 2: Conscious incompetence - You become painfully aware of how little you know

Level 3: Conscious competence - You know what to do, but only by active thinking

Level 4: Unconscious competence - Actions become automatic

So everyone who wants to can learn and study and become unconsciously competent with horses. I know many dozens of horse trainers who are like this. I believe there are many masters of horse training in many disciplines who are like this, and they achieve many beautiful performances. But..the horse may not necessarily enjoy it as much as the rider or the audience.

Then finally we get to the combination of Wu-Wei and a lot study and experience, and we get what most of us probably consider a "Horseman." - Someone who does what is right by the horse without thinking.

Now remember, this is work in progress, so I'm like you Niek, interested in other's definitions and ideas. I will say that how I define "horseman" is a lot different then how the encyclopedia or dictionary does.

coveredbridgefarm

Niek wrote:

Niek

Larry in this context nature is not equal to natural

A different example of this in animal/human interaction is the tiger temple in Thailand :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Temple

While not the best of examples i think you wil get what i see in the concept a bit better.

jackspark

Yes, nothing to do with nature, just the nature of the activity you are involved in. "The butcher who practices wu-wei never has to sharpen his cleaver"

coveredbridgefarm

Niek wrote:

becdubie

Yeah, but.....
Wu-Wei is just the coolest name for anything.

whisperingwindfarms

coveredbridgefarm

whisperingwindfarms

I've always heard woo-way.

PasoBaby_CarolU

I think I'd take the "are happy to do so" part out. But I DO believe it is natural for some animals to eat and others to be eaten, and in many cases a predator is often eaten by another predator....take for example fish where the larger fish naturally eats the smaller fish.

I have no problem with the nature of the butcher. Man is an omnivore, like a bear or a pig.

But, I have to agree that Larry has a good point. Nature did not design horses to be ridden or pull loads. They are meant to be eaten. So, it is actually more correct Wu-Wei to close riding stables and re-open the slaughter houses? (not that I'm suggesting that, but it is "THE TRULY NATURAL" relationship between horse and man.

Getting past the concept of eating, and going just being totally natural WITH horses, I think it is nearly impossible for any of us to not bring other learning, hopes, desires, plans, goals and objectives into the relationship with the horse. Niek mentioned PK and Buck, but didn't both men learn from other horsemen? Don't both men have a horsemanship agenda with the horse? Is that really natural? Think of Carolyn Resnick who learned directly from a herd of wild horses. She is probably the closest to totally naturally WITH the horse, but every human looks, thinks, and interacts with horses based on their previous learning and human thoughts and emotions.

So, that kind of leaves us with Temple Grandin.

jackspark

You are over thinking....... the butcher cuts meat and if you cut meat with the practice of wu-wei then your knife blade will never become dull.

Niek

Larry,

As nancy said : you are over thinking the concept, trying to add ,values like positive or negative, happy or sad to it. Wu Wei has nothing to do with this and does not add value to it.

Nor does the word nature has anything to do with wild life or the natural world (not just in the idea of natural horsemanship) Maybe its easier to compare nature in this context more to harmony.

As to the concept in horsemanship i think Ray Hunt had a nice paradox thats similar to those found in Wu Wei : Picking up a soft firmness

PasoBaby_CarolU

Larry or I 'overthink' something?

Naw, couldn't happen.

jackspark

Alan Watts, Tao the Watercourse Way, has a good discussion of what wu-wei means. Wei means: to be, to do, to practice, to act out; and the total meaning is "not forcing" or what we mean by going with the grain, rolling with the punch, swimming with the current, trimming sails to the wind, taking the tide at its flood, and stooping to conquer. Perhaps best exemplified in the Japanese arts of judo and aikido where an opponent is defeated by the force of his own attack.

Watts calls it a form of intelligence- that is knowing the principles, structures, and trends of human and natural affairs so well that one uses the least amount of energy in dealing with them.

Hute

Thanks Nancy - I was confused at first too, I get it now.

Think LBI horses are masters of Wu-Wei?

jackspark

coveredbridgefarm

PasoBaby_CarolU

There seems to be a lot more to Wu-Wei then just using less energy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

I was thinking of the "do without doing" definition. I applied it to horsemanship in that after you have been with horses a long time you see and respond to a horse in pain without thinking about it, or block a forward horse without an active thought, or take control for a frightened horse without thinking about it. You don't think about bringing your energy up or down for what you want to do, you just do it because it is now natural for you to do so. Something as Niek described, you ride, balance, and adjust without thinking 'inside leg, this rein, that weight..." you just do it because you have the body memory to do what you want without thinking. It doesn't take an active thought.

I ride with many women who started riding late in life. When we take dressage lessons I see them put a lot of conscious thought into where they have their legs, how they're sitting, where their weight is, how they're holding the reins. They often complain that it is a lot to keep track of all at the same time. I am sure with PK that the only time those thoughts enter his mind is when he's instructing a new student in how to ride.

whisperingwindfarms

So Brent must have been practicing this principle when he gets a horse to do things just by using his mind. He taught us how to direct our horse's attention with our minds. Way cool!

jackspark

[quote="PasoBaby_CarolU:83112"]There seems to be a lot more to Wu-Wei then just using less energy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

quote]

Oh my gosh yes! There are a zillion translations of the Tao and the concept of wu-wei; it has many "nooks and crannies"

Niek

Larry,
Your stuck on what is natural and what is not, wu wei is not about that.

Nature is not natural in the flora and founa sense of the word,its much more related to harmony. Its about going with a flow and in for example aikido guiding energy around wu wei does not perse imply a lack of force.

bit

Me? I'm thinking, what a great name for a horse!

whisperingwindfarms

OMG!

Peeperpuppy

coveredbridgefarm

Robin wrote:

jackspark

By George, I think you've got it! I like to refer to it as "in the zone" Sometimes when I teach I slip into the zone and don't know what is happening around me except that I am in a kind of dance of info with the kids

Peeperpuppy

you're cooking with fire now, Larry

I think my Grandpa was a master of wu wei although I can only imagine the response had I know about it back then & told him so. He was the calmest person I've ever met & got ruffled by nothing. He could make an offhanded joke & leave you with a smile when all you'd wanted to do was scream or cry but that funny little piece of whit would break the ice & set you right.

There was a horse he went in on that was just about half crazy. Mind you he'd been driven to that, he didn't get there on his own. Beautiful horse. Just the kind of beauty that brings a tear to the eye. My Grandpa rigged up a lariat with soda cans (some had pebbles in it). He made sort of his own rattle-contraption & a flapper thing with leather that sounded like a gun shot when he whapped something with it. Sounded way worse than it felt (though I didn't know that until later). This horse had been cooped up because he was 'too crazy' to be allowed out in the pasture & the barn hands had the bites, kick marks, & stories of broken bones or near death experiences to prove it.

Grandpa had him turned loose in a huge arena & he kept the horse at bay from doing him harm with the two weirdest noisemakers. For 2 hours the 'battle' was on. Finally when the war was over the horse finally saw fit to begin to mimick Grandpa's attitude which was, "stop if you want to with the intent of no harm". Every one of the 35 people present all felt it, saw it. He had a small hole worn into the arena where he'd never left a 3-4 ft box of area as he simply defended his space & waited for the horse to realize the war was all him & the place of peace was to quiet & waiting for him to join Grandpa.

We were always able to handle the horse where few could until my friend bought him & took him away from the place where he had such an awful reputation. As I think of that day now, Grandpa was very much like the water doing no more than nothing & a lot more than nothing all at the same time. Wu-wei

bit

So if we are doing it right, the horse has got nothing to wu wei about? Sorry.

PasoBaby_CarolU

whisperingwindfarms

jackspark

Bit, you are wu-wei-sum. You shouldn't have started it......it could get worse

PasoBaby_CarolU

jackspark