It's About The Horse

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4354 Location: Kansas

Just got home from a three day centered riding clinic in Topeka. Eclipse now stops, walks, and gaits with a breath. She turns with the slightest ask. I'm talking, with a thought and a thumb rub (just the tinest circle) on the rein. The theme for the clinic for me was, less is more. She had us pair up, one with a bridle on our heads, bit in hand, and the other on an exercise ball, bouncing the trot. We got to feel just how little was needed to feel what is asked in the bit. We got to feel how moving the hands with the horses movement at a walk kept the horse from running into the bit. At a trot, (bouncing on the ball) we got to feel how making the elbows heavy created incredible lightness. How a breath out, a grounding exhale, will ask for a stop, and only support with the reins if needed. Of course the seat must also quit riding and settle deep. Not slouching on the pockets. How spinnning your center will ask for a faster speed, and that requires a thought and a quick, "blow out the candle" breath. No leg, no nothing. Just the breath. How VERY important clear intent is.
I was riding around the cones, doing circles at certain ones. If I put focus on the cone, Elipse would walk over and stand on it. If I focused on a circle around the cone, she circled around the cone. The more connected we became, the better my clear intent worked. I could think gait, blow out the breath from my center, and off we'd go. It kept me very present with my horse, and that relaxed the heck out of her.
We were asked to imagine a bubble around the horse and ourselves. That ended the anxiousness of the horses. Guess it works really well on the trail, too. It's like our magic, protective bubble. More clear intent stuff.
You know how you ask for a teacher, and just the right one comes along? Centered riding is just the right thing for me right now. Amazing results. I finally feel balanced, my seat is grounded, my feet are grounded, and I FINALLY get what my hands are supposed to be doing. How much rein, when, and that resulted in collection. Real collection, with the rear end engaged, back rounded and horse happy.
Great three days with 15 ladies, camping in my goose neck, and great food. Another one in October, if anyone is interested. T touch and centered riding clinic at the end of May, and yep, I'm going!
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

appellativo · Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: centered riding clinic

bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4354 Location: Kansas

Wish I could. It's that old, "feel and timing" thang. I just got to where I knew how much contact she was comfortable with, when I needed to take an inch more rein, and when I needed to let her stretch her head down and relax, giving her a loose rein. I learned that by Carol, my instructor, telling me the instant things needed to change. By doing it a lot, I eventually got a feel for it. Doing it with Gunner or Hawk? I don't know them as well, so that's going to be a whole different horse. Eclipse, I know. I can understand how difficult it is to try and teach something like this. Depends on the horse, what's going on at the time, and all the other stuff that factors in during a ride. I don't regret spending the money because I don't think I would have figured it out on my own.
Yep, I know what you mean about spending. I'm not allowed any more horses, and need to sell Mr. Hawk when he gets back from training. Hope to find him a nice, level headed endurance rider he can bond up with and go kick some serious butt. Even going on the actha rides gets very expensive. I'm limiting them to only rides that are dang close. Some of the actha riders will typically drive 8 hours to get to a ride.

Wlth the price of diesel, AND what they charge to ride, I won't be hitting many of them.
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

appellativo · Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject:

I probably just need to work on getting it to be a habit for my horse to give her head to me at the standstill. She still pretends she doesn't have a clue what that means (okay maybe she doesn't but it's beyond me why not as we practice it every time I ride). So I guess if I can't get vertical flexion at a standstill I probably will never get her to round her back while moving, does that sound right?

However, if Dr. Deb is correct and vertical flexion is a SIDE EFFECT of engagement, shouldn't I be able to ask for engagement? I don't know how to do that yet.

I am frustrated. It's tough being poor and wanting to learn horsemanship. My progress is so slow it feels like going backward.
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"The world doesn't need Fight Club; it needs ponies." --Brannon Sherry

http://sites.google.com/site/erinscarolynresnicknotes/

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

Just some thoughts on stuff for appellativo on the Uberstreiken exercises on your blog

exercise 1 ok - but putting your horse nicely on forehand - just following a feel.
exercise 2 confusing for horse - he has a vertical flexion and lateral flexion joint, circling will teach the twisting evasion - which you then have to get rid of later! Its hard for the horse to do and makes everything else complex - no idea why she would want to do this if she has knowledge of anatomy.

Where are the next ones appellativo?

I would borrow the Philippe Karl dvd 1 to understand this and move on now.

You are spending a lot of time looking around subjects when there are certain dvd's and books available which will answer your questions easily.

Get a book on atanomy - look at the spine and look at the various amounts of movement in each of the vertebrae and which way each move and how many degrees. Learn this and think about this before you go any further, its a huge help to understand this!
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9037

Excellent advice Julie. I agree wholeheartedly. There is a great deal to learn that is fairly inexpensive, although a clinic or lesson a couple times a year will help pick up any errors in your understanding.

I think the answer for you Deb (will carry through on the trail) and you Erin might be consistency. You have to be consistent in how you ride. (not saying you aren't)

Julie, I totally agree with your point on anatomy. I like to stretch the WHOLE neck of my horse and knowing that you aren't going to get a 90-degree turn at C 1/2 or 2/3 is important. At 3/4 it becomes closer to 90 degrees. But, just because you only get a few degrees at C 1/2, doesn't mean you don't need to exercise it too. I try to isolate each area and stretch it, and at different heights, so I get all the neck AND BACK muscles. Bending the ribs and raising the back are good exercises you can do in-hand even on days you don't ride.

Sorry...off topic. I follow Mark Russell's work.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9037

I forgot to ask, Deb, what do you mean by "Spinning your center?"

I am surprised so much of your lesson is on breath - not that breathing isn't critical, but training your horse to breath is - to me - pretty specific. I train with my seat and even that can be a problem occasionally when I turn to take a picture or something. I probably talk too much trail riding to train to breaths. I would think that 'centered riding' would train your seat.

Your experience looking at the cone and ending up on the cone is the same as mine. I learned I had to focus on the track I wanted the horse to take, NOT the center of the circle. It is a fault I found with how PNH teaches this.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

the spinnig and breating is centred riding specific Carol, the way that centred riding works is great - its more of a structured programme in a way, moving on with each section which works, I sue some of it in my teaching.

The problem is that to ride you need a horse teacher, person teacher, decent saddle which is the interface between the two and knowledge which includes anatomy. These rarely come in one package, but I had the experience this weekend of an instructor who managed all of this with amazing clarity.

She has anatomical knowledge, is a saddle fitter, a Ride with your mind instructor, a chiropractor, a PK instructor trainee and also knows clicker.

Wow - she made it so clear that with each area you pick the best you can, a great horse teacher may not teach riding well etc.

I see now so many people travelling the same roads and learning the same mistakes I did, it is good to be able to help people find a different road and avoid the mistakes.

We had a huge clicker input this weekend, which I got some stuff out of, mainly that some things taught by Alex Kurland do not work well, but with anatomical knowledge they can be corrected, if you have the knowledge.

So I would like to say to appellativo - please skip to PK, to Bit please keep on with centred riding with book one but skim it rather than look for meaning, just do as it says and it works, but its a rider book, not a horse book. and to Hertha to check anatomy before microshaping and ensure that you can do belly lifts first so the horse does a belly lift before the microshaping!
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Blue Flame · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject:

AlythLong · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:47 am Post subject:

I tried to read this thread as it sounded really interesting.....but......by using names instead of psueodnyms I am completely lost. Who are Erin and Deb? And Julie, to whom are you answering in your post with numbers, the one on April 12th? Perhaps I am skimming through too quickly but this thread in particular does not seem to have any logic!!! There is no connection between posts!!!

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

Alyth - i have gone back and changed things for you.

I was just pointing out to appellativo that when looking at the uber exercises to think about the anatomy and the joints involved.

There is so much stuff at the moment about giving at the poll etc, which IMO having just done a lot of anatomy and dissection is actually not where you really want to be going. The PK work is so much easier and nicer for the horse giving a real understanding of anatomy and movement, rather than teaching your horse to give at the poll, work behind the vertical and evade using or building its back muscles.

It can also be done bitless to a point!
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bit · Member Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 4354 Location: Kansas

Spinning your center is a visualization used in centered riding. You see your core, which is down by your belly buttonish, in a counter clockwise direction. To stop, you feel the down motion of the spin, which deepens your seat in the saddle, but doesn't slouch your body. To go, you see the spin or circle come up from your butt and go up, around and forward, which stretches you up and directs your energy forward. You don't really see the rider DO anything, but the horse sure can feell it and responds very nicely.
Carol had me visualize my center, and then she had me visualize Eclipse's, because she wanted us to connect. She asked me to shoot an arrow from my center to hers. Eclipse actually jerked when my arrow hit her center. Horses are that sensetive. Yes, it worked.
When i mentioned breathing, I meant mine. To go, I spin my center and will "blow out the candle" with my breath. That's a strong breath which comes from my core, not just from my chest. To stop, it's a simple, very relaxed exhale. The breathing helps my body do those tiny little changes, which the horse feels.
It didn't start out this way, but it was the end result on day three. It started by asking with the breath, focusing on the spin in our center, and supporting with a give and take on the reins, and nice release (stand and rest) when the horse stopped. By the end, the exhaling was enough, and there were times when just focusing on the spin was enough. I think that's when some folks say horses respond with just the thought of stopping, I know when I think of that spin to stop, my body does the smallest of changes, but that's all horses need. When I see someone jerking on a horses mouth, it makes me cringe.
I saw some folks using spurs on their horses there. Every post at the trot, the spur jabbed the horse. I wondered how many humans that use spurs realize they are jabbing their horses with every stride. It was pretty hard to watch. No, I don't use them. Yes, I know they are an aid. No, I've rarely seen them used properly, except by some pretty dang good riders. Most people don't have enough control over their feet to use them properly. There may be some folks that use spurs that are offended by this. Not as offended as their horses are. I am contantly amazed how very sensitive the horse is, and how incredible insensitive the human can be. It takes so little to ask a horse to move this way or that, stop or go, collect, and raise their back to meet the rider. So little. All those tie downs, spurs, harsh bits, harsh words, hitting, jabbing, hurting, is so unneccessary if the human would take the time to learn how to ask. Take the time it takes.
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"It was once said I should clear my head for one cannot ride a Thoroughbred. Hot they are. And too fast they be. Forever on the fly. But I stayed the course and have no remorse. I love my off the track racehorse!"

AlythLong · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject:

Thank you Julie - much clearer to my muddled mind!!
Bit - great post, I have printed it out to mull over!!
Alyth

appellativo · Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject:

Julie, I know I have the Uberstreichen Exercise one and two on my website, but believe it or not, I have not actually done the UE's on my horse! LOL I have a little folder that I printed all the lessons from 2009 but I only summarized one and two on my website. I'm not sure if I'll get around to doing the rest, but anyone who wants to know them, I'd recommend looking in the archives of Carolyn's blog and printing them out. But from what you say, perhaps would be a good idea to get the hang of anatomy and whatnot before applying them.

Where would be a good place to start on the PK? A particular video or book suggestion would be helpful.

Blue Flame, I will have to review Mike's information too.

Bit/Deb, in my other thread I said I had a question to ask of you.

When I was talking to Lynn, the centered riding instructor (the one I'm going to start working for monday in exchange for lessons), I was asking her if what she taught me would cause me to have to use different cues (example, leg/seat cues) with my horse. Because I'd feel bad to start changing things up on her again after teaching her a certain way.

Bless her heart, she was trying to tell me that I would not need cues like I'm using now. I was like what? She was like, trust me, I'll demonstrate for you when you come work for me the first day. She said our horses are so used to us using a certain set of mechanical (physical) cues, ie I open my legs slightly and tilt my pelvis forward to ask her to go forward; but that with centered riding it's way more sublte and more the horse's true language that we use. She said that in the book, it doesn't really get into it and that you have to learn it from an instructor. Does that pretty much jive with what your clinic was like? How long did it take your horse to 'change over' to the new way? Was it pretty easy/instant to learn? How many forty-five minute lessons do you think it will take in order to get the hang of it?
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"The world doesn't need Fight Club; it needs ponies." --Brannon Sherry

http://sites.google.com/site/erinscarolynresnicknotes/

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

I would go for PK DVD1, that will be pently for wuite a while, if you add it into what you know. The centred riding should tie in if its the Sally Swift based centred riding, once you start to use a standard cue, many of the teachers will be the same. PK is about the horse, and weighting the seatbones, rather than seat so much.

Once you start a standard seat then many of the instructors - Sally Swift, Heather Moffat, Sylvia Loch, Mary Wanless all teach basically the same type of thing with tiny variations. Which one you choose depends on what is available.

Always ask for homework for the last part of your lesson, recap and check out some exercises to practise between lessons.
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