It's About The Horse

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

It seems to be a re occuring subject in several topics, its also a topic that can lead to some more heated debates. But most of all its a great subject and dressage or maybe a better term, gymastisation is something all horses need.

Put your thoughts down here, discuss, post links etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g63g9r9_N3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiP7nsVHizw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CEwvZQVYw

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9037

Good topic Niek. I think we can all agree that we don't need discuss the Kur method at all, since it is so horribly bad for the horse.

Of the three videos you posted, I liked the attitude of the horses in the third video...no tail swishing. All seemed happy and unstressed.

It is interesting what you say about developing the athlete that is the horse, since I'd say 90% (maybe more) do no dressage or suppling, and are ridden in all kinds of athletic pursuits, most of them considered sports requiring athletes. I can tell you that of the hundreds of people I ride with, there are probably less then 10 who do any kind of dressage with their horses.

I think it depends on how you want your horse to carry itself. If your desired activity requires the horse to be collected and use it's rear end, then I believe Classical dressage is the only way to do this correctly and humanely. And then you must decide how much you do, and how fast you do it, will you let the horse decide. As much as I prefer an unstressed horse, and most my activities don't stress my horses, I do believe that sometimes, especially if you push towards any kind of competition, you will stress that horse.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

Maybe I need to define it better, each horse can benefit greatly from these exercises if they are done properly. I do not believe a horse wil completely fall apart with just freestyle (Granted if there are underlaying physical issues, these most likely wont improve) actually far more damage can be done with dressage that is forced

Its a shame only one decent clip of Philippe Karl is on youtube. I prefer him to Bent Branderup. Both are great riders but i believe PK`s horses are in better shape and move more beneficial. the bonus material of his dvd`s show him with his Cadre Noir horse Odin : 0 tail swish and perfect attitude. Bent Branderup is a great rider though, i just think the way he gets there wont work for all types of horses

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Thanks for this thread. I have much to learn and I look forward to it.

Never one to shy away from asking dumb questions, here are a few that I'm wondering about regarding competitive dressage?

Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?

Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?

What exactly do judges look for? Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results? Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?

What do you think horses really think of dressage? Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?

And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses? What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can. Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?

Questions, I always have questions.

Larry

AlythLong · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:09 am Post subject:

Oh Larry, what fantastic questions!! I love them and I am really looking forward to the answers, In fact I wish you would post this on COTH!!! As for doing dressage on small horses- I see in my minds eye tiny women on huge warmbloods trying and trying to get their legs to have an effect!!! As for the supreme dressage rider - would anyone vote for Anky???? Alyth

oztinks · Member Joined: 11 Jun 2009 Posts: 52

I will have a go at Larry's questions
Since I am no expert don't expect knowledgeable or intuitive answers just general observations

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9037

I think how much a horse enjoys dressage depends on the horse and the rider. Some horses prefer direction and not making decisions. My RBIs are like this. They do well with repetition and direction. I think other others get bored to death with arena work.

When I see the control and precise direction of some "masters" I also see some unhappy horses, especially those that are over tucked and spurred for every step. I can't imagine a horse that is essentially punished constantly being happy. No release, no reward.

I do think there is a BIG difference between a horse who herds cows and a true 'cowpony.' Having lived on a ranch I can tell you there are horses who consider chasing cows work and don't enjoy it one bit, and others LOVE to chase and cut cows. Those are the TRUE cattle horses. It's very much like a hunting or herding dog, what they were born to do. The first horse is a lot of work to ride since you have to direct it after the cows and to go back after a cutback calf or cow. The cowpony is a joy to put on cows and all you have to do is stay on. They do ALL the work, read the cows, and keep the herd together and moving.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

cannot do that fancy quote thing still but!

Is dressage broken down into freestyle and finesse?
All school riding could be called dressage as its all flatwork training, but its more finesse than freestyle

Is there anything like dressage online or at liberty?
Most dressage horses are initially trained on the lunge, or using a lunge rein or long reins in some way, it varies according to the methods used.

What exactly do judges look for? Do they judge the attitude of the horse or simply the results? Do they prefer the riders to be as quiet as possible?

They judge the results, but the attitude is also important, ie a tongue hanging out / swishing tail are likely to influence the judge as both a sign of discomfort.

Is there anyone who is unquestionably THE SUPREME DRESSAGE HORSEMAN, or is there as much dispute over who is the supreme dressage horseman as there is over who is the supreme natural horseman?

Yep - you got that one right! I loved watching Franz Rochowansky teach, he was amazing at picking up the tiniest tension in a horse. Different methods mean that people prefer different riders, though I have huge respect for Lee Pearson!!

What do you think horses really think of dressage? Do they ever really enjoy doing it like, let's say, a good cutting horse really gets into cutting cattle?

Yes they can do! When a horse develops the muscle and ability to find the movements easy they can really get into it. Especially the extended trot and piaffe. Some horses just love showing off to an audience as well.

And btw, why doesn't someone try dressage on cutting horses? What breed of horse has more agility and quickness than cutting horses? Human gymnastics usually selects for smaller athletes because they can do the maneuvers better than large athletes can. Why isn't the same approach taken with dressage if it's really just gymnastics for horses?

You can do dressage with any horse, but if wanting to compete or train to a higher level, I would look for a horse who has a good conformation so as he can develop the muscle required, but mainly one who really, really enjoys learning new things. If they do not enjoy it, then there is no point at all, though my current horse got over his reservations with a few lumps of sugar and some music. Once he got used to using his body in a different way, and being a LBI/E, once he realised that he got a treat if he tried, he now offers to do things! he also adores music!!!
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cynthia peterson · Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject:

All very good answers so far!

What does a judge look for? Other then a attitude of the horse and rider working as one,: Straightness, proper bends, snappy transitions. There is nothing a horse would not be able to do in the pasture without the rider. The whole trouble starts when there is a rider. The horse's balance is different, so the horse has (or be coached) to learn how to do it with the rider. The reason those dressage riders around me in the Championships last weekend looked so good is because they worked on thier own bodies as much as thier horses bodies were taught to be better at what they did. All those riders knew how to help the horses, they weight the stirrup at the right time, the seat, actually feel what is in need of correction, back off when it is done. Just like musician knows his instrument so well, has practiced until he becomes almost bored with it,~ until (s)he can carry out the notes and makes music. This takes time (and making your own tendons and muscles to sit right), and the trick is to have the horse trained in such a way that the horse wants to stay with you at it, no forcing. In fact there is a saying that you have NOTHING if the horses's back is not swinging. That is a relaxed horses's back, a back the horse is giving to you. It trusts you with it, unlike a horse with it's head up and back sunk away from the saddle. I have said before how you can tell how well a horse is ridden by the way it's body is shaped. And part of that shape is what makes the horse stay sound.

There was a french dressage rider Parelli had (I cannot remember his name) He rode Remmer in one of the SC DVDS. I have never seen Remmer rode so well before or after! Remmer did things he had never done, just offered them right up. Linda was amazed! You see, he knew how to ask Remmer to do it. Now you see Linda better then she has ever been with WAZ (but not near as good as the French man) Why would that be? What had WAZ taught her she never got from Pat? And what would Remmer have been like if he had been owned by the Frenchman? Or if LInda had lessons from WAZ years ago? Had she been down a blind alley on somethings? Why did she have to seek them somewhere else? Why does Pat have lessons with WAZ. Do some of us not want to wait years and $$$$ latter to have Linda tell us what we can learn NOW? What would Allure be, or the countless other dressage horses that were bought for Linda? What would River have been like (trained by Karen Rohlf) if Pat had not taken her and now she has dissappeared? You see, those horses were bred a special way, a way Parelli could not use. Shutting them down would not work. Maybe Quarter horses, but you have a Sportscar here, not a pickup truck. The mind, the RPMS, different story.

I love to see PK too, And Brent B is good. And Anja Beran. Google them up. But I have all their DVDs & books.. There are different "schools" of Dressage, generally called "Classicial" and German. And some of that is because of the type horses they were dealing with. I often think of the best (in recent times) winning dressage rider, Dr. Reiner Klimke from the 80's Even today he is held up to the Gold Standard of everything that was right in dressage. But he never had a horse bred like the modern horses, they are just super talented. I know he would train the same way (all day in his real job as a DR., then hours of practice everyday) but I suspect these modern horses are so free off of thier shoulders, so naturally collected and balance, what would he have had if he did have to spend years just getting those old fashion horses to the state the modern horses are born with?

And Larry, all horses can be made better with Dressage. Those cutting horses, it is a amazing how they balance in a catlike stance~ with a rider on their back! They are focusing on the work (just like a dressage horse does his work) They are bred to love their work (just ask Pat, he has said so many times) Just like the dressage horse is bred for his. To get to those very high levels (like I seen last weekend) you will need that special bred horse. Any other horse would not be happy with it, it would cruel to ask it to do what it cannot without force, and that is what it would take. And then you have no swinging back...

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

Great answers Cynthia - what is your background and influences?
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Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

Niek · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 1065

cynthia peterson · Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject:

Yes, Neik, that's the "French"~ a la Spanish guy! Thank you so much. And the website did indicate he is still in the Parelli world. I noticed the picture of him with Karen Rohlf too (my hero) You just have to wonder with a world of talent around Linda that she didn't use them more before?

My background? Thirty some years ago I was "into" dressage Clinics, etc.) and then branched out into other directions (50 years in horses altogether) I have coached Judging Teams for many years, and am a carded Horse Judge. I have come back to my love of dressage. Of course, now I am have slow moving, kind natured QHs I had planned on having for the grandkids to ride... go figure...

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

I remember Luis Lucio riding Remmer. He offered to buy Remmer as I recall. He was just joking, I think.

I'm wondering if we would be expecting Pat Parelli to be teaching dressage if Linda hadn't entered the picture. Before Linda, Pat was just a guy who could teach folks a few things about handling horses, about communicating with them, and looking at things from the their perspective. From my vantage point, I thought he did those things well. I'm thinking Linda raised expectations a little too high when she arrived with her dressage background even if it was a failed background.

I guess you can either criticize Pat for getting into areas he has no business getting into, or you can give him credit for challenging himself. It's all a matter of perspective.

Oztinks wrote:

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Totilas being warmed up by Edward Gal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkAqyniCgE

Larry