It's About The Horse

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: Sonny's Feet take2 c/w rads 2010

This new thread is about improving Sonny’s feet. If people post in this thread I would rather they didn’t belittle another person’s comments or criticize the individual or their method. It is counter productive. Comments & discussion are welcome but not the snipping.

Right, now that I’ve got the big stick out of the way, lets look at what we have to start over with.

OK here we go again, this time with rads to start the ball rolling.

I have watched most of Pete’s dvds kindly supplied by OMD. It has bought home to me that before I was talked into doing the Strasser trim, I was actually doing a pretty good job of Sonny’s feet. I just wish I had a photo of them from back then. So the last 3 yrs has been a steep learning curve & I have just had another steep learning curve this last week or so. I will go into why in more depth later.

Following are the rads & the vet’s assessment. He has said he will send me his version of a 4 point trim, drawn on one of the rad photos, which he advised I use to get the breakover back & get rid of the lamella wedge which has developed in the last 3wks or so. Basically he suggested I do a trim very similar to what I had been doing until recently & also what PR suggests for this type of hoof problem. So we are on the same page there.

Here are the measurements & vets comments:-

Have sent the inverse images as the HL zone shows up better. As you can see no laminar changes just a white line dragged out at the bottom.
LF – pa 3 degrees, bone angle 50, wall angle 45, coronary band to extensor process 12 mm, 9 mm sole depth
RF – pa 4 , ba 50, wa 47, cb-ep 12mm, 10mm sole
No cup on either foot. Like everything there are several ways you can go about changing this for the better
If he was a lame performance horse I would say full rocker shoe with cushion support
However if speed is not the issue removing enough of that beak on his toe to allow a little earlier break over is part one
Then increasing his sole depth through TLC, biotin and methionine supplementation and if he is still really soft soled painting sole only with strong iodine solution daily to increase the depth of dead horn. There are plenty of hoof supplements out there with many other ingredients and if buying bulk biotin/methionine is a strain we mix the two in small quantities of raw powder for people and dispense over the counter as hoof food.
Obviously the break over change needs to be gentle as you don’t have much sole to work with but if its going to grow faster we need to alleviate the wall stress to get its blood flowing a little better. Something that’s interesting to confirm by venogram but again I understand cost becomes an issue and Sunny is not lame.
Cameron
Cooroora Veterinary Clinic
PO Box 137
Cooroy 4563
Ph 07 54476733
Fax 07 54477480

Here are the rads & corresponding hoof photo:-

LF – pa 3 degrees, bone angle 50, wall angle 45, coronary band to extensor process 12 mm, 9 mm sole depth

RF – pa 4 , ba 50, wa 47, cb-ep 12mm, 10mm sole

First thing to note is how forward the toe has become in just 4wks since stopping the mega roll. I can’t believe just how quickly the toe angle changed. Second steep learning curve! The bevel grows out so fast it requires retiming every few days & still there is too much wall on the ground causing the toe to splay forward. So far the sides have not splayed. The walls & particularly the heels, grew very fast while in boots. 2 sets of 5days in boots (1 set with pads) did not produce anything productive towards concavity unfortunately. The rads indicate Sonny has very little scoop/dish to the underside of his P3 in any case so perhaps he will be flat footed the rest of his life. It wasn’t always so.
I did a light trim as per vet’s instructions the day before the xrays last week, but he rang & cancelled the first appointment & it was rescheduled for today. So yesterday I lightly trimmed fronts again but it was clear they needed a heavy trim.

The vet (who does barefoot trimming himself & NH) discussed a 4 point trim as being best in this situation saying the lamella wedge really needed removing as best as possible by taking the breakover roll back as far as possible every few days until the wedge was gone.

He showed me that the lamella wedge is a lot thicker than I have been rasping to. I did say I had done a much stronger roll once & made him very sore, so the vet said I should work towards getting as close to that point as I can without soring him. Trial & error & wearing boots to protect the toes for the first few days after a trim. The PR dvds show me pretty much the same thing.

Here are some comparison photos I set up on the computer while watching the PR dvds, which I took screen prints of showing a frame of the PR dvd & a photo of Sonny’s hoof that corresponds to what PR was discussing.

Vet didn’t have any new ideas about developing thicker sole. Just to keep doing what I had been doing to grow the walls better & hopefully it would come good with time. He did tell me about painting iodine on the soles. Same for the bars & of course the heels.

Here are some comparison photos of the last few trim cycles that show the regression.

I have decided to return to Leah’s trim to grow the new angle out again since I had success with that & along the way I will make individual tweaks for Sonny by adding some PR things to help the heels, quarters & hopefully get some better sole happening & possibly even some concavity too. What suits other horses obviously doesn’t suit Sonny.

So newfman you may not like my decision. However I must thank you for your input, because without it I would not have gotten xrays so quickly & the discussion would not have heated up causing OMD to lend her dvds to me which clarified the situation.

Just have to start all over again now.
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jokersmama · Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:41 am Post subject:

Thank you for sharing this Clarissa! I have been following Sonny's hoof thread with interest but haven't had anything to add, other than I enjoy the discussion and your willingness to continue sharing.

I look forward to the coming updates and am wishing you good luck!

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"I'd rather be seen for who I am and be alone...than be accepted for someone I'm not and be lonely"~Brock Tully

Kim Cassidy · Member Joined: 21 Dec 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Tucson

Clarissa:

Good for you!! Those are some seriously thin soles. What is your plan besides returning to Trimming From the Top?

Instead of boots, how about using Equicast with Impression Material packed in the collateral grooves and around the apex of the frog? If you are worried about traction you could put some superfast strips on the bottom to give the horse some leverage.

In my experiences, once the soles are this thin, trimming alone will not fix it. Your horse (IMO) is in a episode of inflammation of the corium. Relief will come when you get the soles up off the ground. This in turn gives the horse a chance to start building sole depth.

Hope this helps, if you have more questions let us know.

Clarissa · Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:24 am Post subject:

RAD I have only read a little about doing that sort of thing plus what has been posted on this forum & another I looked at a while back. I would consider it if it was within my budget. The xrays have emptied my savings account for the time being. All up last year& including this month Sonny cost me almost au$2000 which was mostly to do with his feet one way or another. I am wearing shoes & clothes with holes in so he can have feet!

Before the vet did the xrays he checked Sonny's 4 hooves, took a swipe across sole of LF & dug out the connection between sole & wall to expose the lamella wedge that has just recently redeveloped. There was blood in there. He also pressed on the various nerves that supply the hoof but there was no indication of pain. He then used the hoof testers in several different places on both front feet. The back feet are not as bad although they could be a lot better.

There was a little mild discomfort in places but the vet didn't find any pain although he did say the digital pulse was up? Or maybe he said Sonny had faster digital pulses. I have yet to learn properly about digital pulses. Would he have found any indication of corium inflamation?

I could ask the vet about that casting stuff because I haven't seen it for sale in my town. I had thought of using those plastic shoes but I did read some bad reports about them but they are available in my town.

However I still feel shoes are shoes are shoes with all that involves.

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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

fairhavenranch · Member Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 746

Kim Cassidy · Member Joined: 21 Dec 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Tucson

Clarissa:

I only use Epona's and find they are the best and also the most expensive shoes to put on. The casts, at least in the states are cheap $15.00 per.

You would need to buy the Impression Material, Glue, Glue gun and Tips. Those would last you many applications. I would think you could get Equibond Glue, gun and tips locally. My preferred IM is from Epona (I've tried them all) and they have the best density and support, IMO.

I do not see a Lamellar Wedge, I see thin soles and long toes. You won't fix those long toes until you develop sole depth/mass.

Stare at those xrays and imagine the coffin bone sitting on a thicker sole. Do you see how you could then take the toe back? You can't until you have that.

You won't have that until you protect the bottom of the feet. No amount of trimming will change that, you've already tried

So save your ducats and get the casts, it will be something you can do on your own.

Also so you and anyone else interested understand the measurements the vet is discussing go here

http://www.nanric.com/soft_tissue_parameters.asp

The vet is using Redden's method of measuring.

Clarissa · Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:23 am Post subject:

I never got a reply from Epona when I emailed them & finally the email came back undeliverable! They aren't available in Australia that I've been able to find. So that's the end of that!

The unfortunate part about all this disruption to the trimming regime (whether it was the right one or not) is that Sonny's feet have declined in every respect. They have splayed in all directions, the toes have gotten really long & sloping again & the heels are long & to be honest it looks to me that the coffin bone has dropped through the hoof shell. That is demonstrated by the very deep heel cushions. Basically they are back where they started this time last year.

Leah said I had to wait longer between trims now but the toes started to crack yesterday both verticle & transverse(R photo, 2nd row) with the extreme wet weather we have had here lately, so I had to trim them. The hinds also started to separate transverse at the toe also (last photo shows crack in rasped roll of toe). There is blood/bruising at the sole wall connection inside the hind toe probably from stretching the laminae.

The bevel trim was growing out within a few days so I am just doing a basic rasp from the top trim for a while until the hooves contract a bit. There has been blood between the layers of the wall of the front feet due to the long toe stretching. However I would really like to have a better breakover at the toe but I may have to wait a few weeks for that.

The front feet got 2 very minor trims prior to xrays. The first time the xrays were cancelled but I had to trim again the next week when the xray was on again. It was just really a tidy up so I didn't count them as a proper trim. The back feet hadn't been trimmed for 5wks & it really shows.

Here are photos of before & after the trim of the left front & hind. The toe callous (R photo 3rd row) is very prominent.

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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Clarissa · Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:32 am Post subject:

Leah said all was good with my trim which was a relief! She said the splayed walls should tighten up again with in a few trims. I certainly hope so!

Then she added:-
You are not permitted to touch his feet for at LEAST 3 weeks. LOL

_________________
http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Hertha · Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:10 am Post subject:

Hi Clarissa. This has been interesting.

After lots of mucking about, I've found what works for me is to trim fronts every 7-9 days and maybe a bit longer between trims for the hinds.

Boots lives in soft pasture and most of our riding is on grass. So she is not getting the wear that a horse in wilder conditions would get, so the rasp has to take the place of the miles of travel.

Naturally, hooves would be worn down daily. So I can't understand the people who say to leave weeks between trims.

Just my two cents worth.

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:42 am Post subject:

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject:

Yesterday I looked at Sonny's feet & realized they were starting to split again in this exceptionally wet weather so it was time to trim them a little.

I have decided to go back to the way I used to do his feet before he started having back problems (which I was told were caused by his feet which turned out to be incorrect).

During the last year I have stuck to the 1 trim method, but in the end it has achieved nothing solid. So I will revert to what did work for me prior to being talked into the strasser method that started all this trouble. He never had crushed bars or flat soles althoguh he has always been soft footed.

Leaving his feet for 3wks twice in a row has shown me that if I don't trim off the heels, his bars start to grow & stand up again. I wanted to leave his feet another week but this very wet weather is not doing them much good as the horses spend most of their time in the lower part of the paddocks where they are walking in water eating water weeds.

It is clear to see in the photos this time that there is definate bar growth for the first time in over a year. Leaving his heels longer allows room for the bars to grow straight instead of being crushed over by his weight. One photo of the front sole also has an arrow on it. That is pointing to a layer of sole which has grown across in the last few days. It has almost made it's way to the sole wall connection. I imagine if that was to happen quite regularly, the soles would thicken up again in time. I guess it has room to grown because I am not trimming the walls right down to the sole level.

My thinking is that the sole will grow layers if I give it room much like allowing the heel to grow down more is giving the bars room to grow. I am allowing a good 1/4inch or more of wall below sole level. This very wet ground means they sink into the ground so there is always good contact between sole & ground. Once the dry season clicks in & the ground goes hard I will have to modify the trim a bit then. But for now I will try to leave as much as possible if I continue to see good sole & bar growth. Of course I don't want to see the longer walls flaring or cracking so those will be the defining parameters.

Here are photos I took today. I actually did the nipper trim yesterday but it rained so the light rasping got done today. I don't usually worry about rapsing after trimming with nippers. But I did it this time for the benefit of the photos!

I find this pattern of growth of sole material very interesting the way it is fanning out from around the frog. I have put an arrow where it has grown to in the last few days. It's like there is room now for the hoof to put down new layers of material to thicken the sole since I am not trimming the lower edge of the walls.

The hinds are still a bit at the wrong angle but I think they will stand up better by the next trim.

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http://clissats-own-page.blogspot.com/
Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Gillies_mom · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject:

Hi Clarissa
Sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere - but what is Sonny's diet?
Kate

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject:

Gillies_mom · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject:

It's hard to compare diets when we are in different continents. Over here there is a group called the UKNHCP, the founder members have written a basic hoof care book, called feet First, they would recomend a change in diet to improve thin soles. Basically it says to cut down on sugar and starch, if the horse is prone to laminitis feed hay rather than fresh grass. Then feed a hard feed of either sugar beet or alfalfa (lucerne), mixed with the majic formula of seaweed meal, micronised linseed, brewers yeast and magnesium oxide. If you are interested their chat forum has lots of questions and answers about diet
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/
However I don't know if this diet would be relevant or even available in Australia.
Good luck with Sonny
Kate

Hertha · Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Clarissa,

Interesting that you use mainly nippers. I use a rasp only and hoof knife for keeping the bars upright.

Wouldn't the sole thicken FROM contact with the ground, rather than leaving 0.25 inches of wall?

The mustang roll done strongly from above would shorten the toe and maybe give a truer angle to match the pedal bone???????????????

Only random thoughts.........I don't know much about this, only what works with Boots.