It's About The Horse

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Michelle, having been there, done that, I think I have to agree with you. Laying a horse down is pretty traditional western training. In the old days, there were many wild horses that came out of herds and had to be subdued quickly. There was no "take the time it takes" in those days. In the 1800's in the middle of cattle drives and on huge working ranches, it was almost a necessity to 'break' a horse quickly. I know many "trainers" who routinely lay EVERY horse down to break it. I'm sure they would all tell you that they do it "for the horse" to get it over its fear.

I read a story by Carolyn Resnick of her method of dealing with an "extreme horse" and it was quite different. I don't see any of the traditional western trainers doing the WHR at a clinic OR on their ranch, and I'm pretty sure most would scoff at the suggestion.

We had quite a lively discussion the last time we discussed laying horses down, but I still feel the same way. I'd do it if I had to (emergency treatment, or horse caught in wire that was fighting it, etc.), but that would be the only time.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

carefreegirl · Member Joined: 01 Feb 2009 Posts: 822

I keep trying to put myself in Spencers shoes (which is pretty much impossible), and try to decide what I would prefer if it was me who was displaying behaviors that were dangerous to others, and there were two ways of possibly fixing it, one was quick, the other not very quick at all, in fact it could take most of the rest of my life potentially to 'fix' my dangerous behavior; and Both options may or may not work.

I think personally I would choose to have the quick way, so that I could live the rest of my life in a more normal manner, rather then continuing in my behavior for who knows how long, but I guess it would also depend on the behavior and how 'dangerous' it actually was/how much that behavior negatively affected my/and other's daily life---there actually is so many variables now that I think about it that it is impossible to decide definitively which method I would choose for myself....its the do you take the bandaid off slowly or fast thing, both end in the same result the bandaid off, but one has more pain but doesn't last as long and the other has less pain but it last longer. I know for sure though that I would hope someone would at least try multiple times and in different ways to get me past my dangerous behavior towards others rather then just putting me to sleep.

As for myself if I was faced with a horse like Spencer that I needed to 'fix' I'd probably try the slow way, at least for a couple of years and if I wasn't seeing significant improvement I might then consider going to an expert, but if I did go to an expert, I definitely would not subject my 'Spencer' to be part of a demonstration so that the expert would not have the time constrains and opinions of the observers swaying/and pressuring his actions, instead the expert would only have his beliefs/philosophies and the horse to consider in how to accomplish the 'fix'

anyway just some thoughts that were rambling around in my head...

Tigerlily · Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:53 am Post subject:

Someone read this on SC and asked me to post it here.....

I don’t know how to explain this without being graphic….but I think there are just so many people who DON’T understand abuse. There are 4 incidents, that come to mind with 3 separate clinicians. All are NH, all are out to help the horse. All involve force to achieve the outcome desired in a short period of time. All have received attention, both by supporters and critics. At least 3 have been well discussed on this (SC) forum. All 4 incidents had the desired positive outcome. This post is in no way shape or form, to lay any kind of judgement or accusation….just a window into maybe a different perspective……the horses perspective.......

thru MY eyes, thru MY pain, thru MY experiences, I will tell you what "I" see.

Lets say you have young girl, 18yo and a virgin. It is the first night of her honeymoon, of her arranged marriage. She met her husband for the first time at the alter. He is an older man, and not nessicarily a loving man. He expects what he expects when they go to bed. She is frightened, it is painful and she resists. He persists. If he does not get his way, he beats her. This goes on for years, and nothing changes. She still is afraid of him in the night, though during the day, they have an amicable agreement and all is well. One day, he cannot take her rejection any more and sends her to a friend of his, to ‘help’ her through her ‘issues’. This man does not speak her language. She cannot understand what he is asking of her. She runs from him, but he catches her. He ties her hands together to the posts of the bed, and through pressure and release he teaches her, her duties and responsibilities, for her own good. At one point he had to gently wrap his hands around her neck until she almost passed out. It only takes one night, but thru gentle conditioning, she learns to handle it and stop resisting. She returns to her husband, and is able to be with him with out fight or resistance, he no longer has to beat her, and together, she even comes to enjoy him.

Does ANY of this sound right to you? Do you think the friend, while gentle did NOT force her? Do you think that because it was for her own good, and she no longer gets beat, spending the night with the gentle friend was not abuse? Do you think it was not against her will? Do you think she NEEDED this to be happy? But most importantly……Do you think there could have been a better way? Do you think that maybe counseling in the art of kindness for the husband would have been a better way for HER?

Sorry to be so graphic…..but I truly do not think people REALLY understand what is going on half the time, and do not REALLY put themselves in the shoes of the horse and REALLY try to see if from THEIR perspective…..simply because of the outcome or the name of the 'FRIEND"
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True Genius does not fullfill expectations, True Genius shatters them.

Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a jackass from any direction.

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Jack · Member Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Posts: 269

Tigerlily, do you happen to ride a gelding?

Jack

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

I am thinking about this Michelle, in the context of this thread and my past experiences laying horses down.

I think you are right that in the case of the young woman, SHE was not the problem, but the whole situation of an arranged marriage, the attitude of spousal duties, and a woman's vs man's role. Counseling was definitely on order, but I say that coming from what is our cultural norm. In the case you describe, the entire culture needs counseling IMO.

When taken to the case of Spencer, I do believe there is a better way to fix this horse then forcing him to submit. Getting him to willingly submit is much better BUT it is also very time consuming. I'm not talking years, but at least several days. When a horse like Spencer is taken to any of these clinicians (and the same thing would have happened with many NH or traditional clinicians), it was for a 'quick fix.' Would any of these clinicians have helped the horse and owner with the problem if he hadn't fixed the problem that weekend? Undoubtedly not.

Unless you have a horse like this, and are in this position, it is very hard to arm chair quarterback the proper response.

Very much like the Catlwalk incident, it DID solve the problem. Was there another way? Probably. But the point is to solve the problem.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Tigerlily · Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:31 pm Post subject:

tchofclas · Member Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 9 Location: Ontario

Interesting thread. Lets try a different scenario than Tigerlily's.
It is the late 1800's and a child who has injured a leg now has advancing gangrene. There is no anesthetic, and if the leg isn't removed below the knee, the child will surely die. Father and uncle hold the child down while the doctor removes the leg. Fortunately for the child it passes out during the procedure, but because of it, the child will live.
Or the removal of a lodged bullet in early cowboy times. Is it better to forgo some necessary pain and die because of it?

Since nobody has mentioned it, perhaps no one else is familiar with Professor Beery's methods? In 2006 Andy Curry was advertising it as 108 year old horse training guide. My parents bought it for me in the '60's, when I was a teenager. He used to lay a horse down, and then prove to it no matter how bad things got, it would survive. I believe there is a pic of him standing on the horse firing a gun.
There was an illustration of the running W, but is was not something I ever tried. However, he did have a simple method for putting a horse down. (No, not as in dead)
He would tie a front leg up with a strap around the forearm and cannon. Horse already had a surcingle and halter on with a rope run from the surcingle to the halter and back on the opposite side of the tied up leg. If the left leg was tied up, pulling on the rope brought around the horses right haunch would bring his head around to the right and he would go down on his left knee, then more tension around the haunch would bring the horse down on his left side.
Unfortunately my 1200 lb gelding did not read the manual, and could run just as fast on three legs as my little 110 lb body could go. Eventually he got tired, and it worked like it was supposed to. I just kept him down for awhile, and then let him up. I would often catch him just looking at me, and I swear I could hear him wondering "How did she do that?" He had a changed attitude in that he had 100% more respect for me. No longer did I get dragged at the end of the lead shank, and we had a relationship I think few are lucky to have. I used it on him a few more times and eventually I could pick up his leg and just pull his head around with a rope and he would lay down. He was a very smart horse, and learned a lot of tricks as well.
When I got the course, it promised if you had any problems or questions, to write and they would try to answer. I asked how to teach a horse to jump, and got a very detailed reply.
We went on to compete both hunter and jumper, and did very well, especially after I got some lessons to improve my own form.
I also did this with my half Arab mare, who was much easier to get to lay down. When I let her up, her impression seemed to be "So what was that all about?" and I never found one iota of difference in her manner.
A few years ago I acquired an Arabian stallion who'd been shown to the point he had a lot of issues and had been sent to a trainer to resolve them. Apparently it never happened, or he was much worse before I saw him. When my girlfriend got him, he charged her when she was doing the John Lyons circling thing, and soon had her number, so he came to me. He never intimidated me, and we respected each other. I pasture bred him and was bringing him to another field when he swung around while I was opening a gate, and got his hind legs caught in the piece of page wire that was the other half of the gate. Wasn't a pretty picture for a while, and I finally got him tied to a tree so I could go and get some wire cutters. When I came back, (about 15 min later, was a long way to the house)it was getting dark enough it was hard to see, but I could tell he was down. My first thought was he's broke his neck and I haven't even made a payment yet. He was subdued enough I could cut him out of the wire, and from then on he's a bigger pet than most dogs. Comes when he's called, and is one of the most cooperative horses you'd want to be around.
So maybe there are other ways of looking at it. My father always said no pain, no gain, but I don't think he was talking about purposely inflicting unnecessary pain, but even to become fit, we have to put up with muscle aches.
Personally, given the choice between excruciating pain for the good, and death, I think I'd take the pain!
Charlotte
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My treasures do not click together or glitter, they gleam in the sun and neigh in the night."
-- Bedouin Proverb

thelmanelle · Member Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Posts: 3253

The DR tour stop I attended if you were a No Dust member you came in with the horses the day before and a special project horse for demo was selected by DR. I think the lady who was working with her horse could not hear him anymore due to the intenseness of his voice. It was hard to know at the actual function unless you were in the crowd who he was talking to the student or the crowd?

Plus, the microphone was turned way up.

yes, his wife rides beautifully.

It was too much noise for me, personally. But, might be the way for another person and their horse.
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