It's About The Horse

appellativo · Last edited by appellativo on Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total

I've been trimming my mare for the last couple years. She's 14. When I got her she was very crooked (and trimmed rarely.) She's straightened out some. but in general, this is how she's looked these days in the front end:

When I moved to the Saddlebred farm very close to my house, the owner/trainer said that he would like to trim her to allow her to stand straighter. (He went to farrier school and shoes and trims all his own.)
I was a bit nervous being that his skill set is saddlebreds. One day when the vet was there, he was trimming a horse and called me over to ask if I wanted him to trim Sasha. I scampered over to the vet to pay a bill and asked her what she thought: should you try to corrective trim a horse that's been crooked much of her life? She said she believes that you have to trim the whole leg (ie. not just trim the hoof to the live sole plane but look all the way up the leg and see how the hoof needs to be trimmed so the leg is allowed to enable the leg to be straight.)

So I agreed. I stood over his shoulder and watched as he trimmed the outer (lateral) side of the hoof. Inside my eyes were big and I was covering my mouth and making a little screaming sound, LOL! I said, "Uh, she doesn't have very thick soles." I asked him about expecting soreness after a trim and he said, "It's inevitable."

My horse trotted off sound on grass (not that I have an eagle eye for all the different levels of lameness but she seemed spunky enough to me. There was no obvious favoring or head bobbing etc.). So I left for the day.

But today riding, I could tell she was more tender than usual on the rocks. Short strided and lifting the foot up sooner than usual, head coming down. Not every stride but still.

so I would like to hear both sides of the coin: both barefoot trimmers (who I'm pretty sure I know their opinion since I am one albeit amateur), and farriers. Here is the after. She stands a bit straighter, and her knees are not so close together. She is also a bit less cowhocked in the back (sorry no pic.) But is it at a cost that is acceptable, or not? Thoughts please. Should I continue to allow him to trim or not, too.

after pic:

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calatar · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:02 am Post subject:

Conformation is conformation and once a horse has matured I don't see how it's possible to change bone alignment.

If you have an imbalance in a leg, and then trim in an imbalance to "straighten" the leg, you now have two imbalances.

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Gillies_mom · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:07 am Post subject:

If the problem is from the fetlock down trimming can help foal problems before the plates close. If you try to correct a mature horse from being say toed-out, you can blow up the knees. If you take heel off so that it looks like the horse stands straight it forces the horse to twist when moving. Once the growth plates have closed, you can't change conformation. Non-ideal conformation is OK.

appellativo · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:34 am Post subject:

Ok now I guess I need to consider the source/validity of both sides of the arguement. What you two are saying is what most resonates with me; but what about the veterinarian and certified farrier? Can they really be wrong?

My friend said her concern would be that the new arrangement (trim) would cause soreness else where in the body. And would that be temporary and likely to resolve, or not?
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calatar · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject:

IMO vets are like general practitioners for people. So if you have a problem with your feet do you go to a gp or a podiatrist? Also, depending on the vet's experiences and how long since they left school, opinions on feet can vary considerably. Ask four different vets about a foot problem and you're likely to get five different opinions. In terms of farriers and trimmers, some are qualified and some aren't.
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"Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." -Andre Gide

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appellativo · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject:

that's good to know but in my quest for truth is quite discouraging LOL
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learningthedance · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject:

Exrays would be nice to be able to see what's going on inside the foot if your
A. Trimming to ballance the foot.
VS
B. Trimming to ballance the leg.

Not saying that "you" need exrays, I am just saying that they would be interesting to see. I would want the FOOT in ballance. A straighter leg attached to a crooked foot (internally especially), I would think would just be setting the horse up for a breakdown at some point down the road. Kind of like Jim Crew and all the shims. He is shimming to ballance the horse (he say's they should all be straight like the legs of a table:roll: ), with little to no regard of what effects it's having on the hoof and the internal structures.

Interesting that people are always commenting on the Parelli horses soundness issues and how they are progressively getting worse.Their farrier Jim Crew, is trimming/shimming to ballance the legs and body. He is not trimming to ballance the foot.
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appellativo · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject:

well i suppose i should not get too hung up on 'fixing' anything. she's been working and playing soundly for the last couple years. I could start farting around with things now (ie doing things differently) and I suppose I would 'know' if it's 'working' or not based on whether she begins to have trouble.

My initial instinct is to (now that the foot has been supposedly improved by the 'therapeutic' trim) just go back to trimming a balanced foot as best I was before, having my work occasionally double checked by someone who has more experience than myself.

But i know that the farrier on site will want to have at her again. I suppose I will cross that bridge when I get to it, knowing that I still don't have 100 percent confidence in the correct course of action. Frustrating!

(at this point I don't have the resources to do xrays on her feet, nor frankly the motivation, as she has not had any lameness issues keeping her from working and playing. were that to change I would certainly come up with plan B to get rads done)
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thebundychick · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:20 pm Post subject:

I had my Chiropractor have a look at Sante's pidgeon toedness in the front feet. He indicated to me at the time that it was waaaaay to late to change anything in his feet / legs - that its something that should have been done when he was a foal.

I never bothered asking a vet.

My old farrier tried corrective shoing on Sante for two years and never had any success.

BUT - FWIW - as you know, I've just put new shoes on Sante - and I have to say that it has improved his stride no end. He still stands pidgeon toed, but its nothing like the severity he used to have - and he no longer paddles when he trots either.

His motto is that you trim according to the position of the pedal bone. You find your markers on the sole of the foot, and trim accordingly.

I know I'm not a professional, I've just got a few years of barefoot trimming under my belt, and all the associated reading that goes with it. - its not much, but I appear to finally be having success with his feet issues.

sebocat · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject:

If she was sound before, why would you fix what isn't broken?

My guy is toed in pretty hard. I trim and keep him barefoot. When I first got him, I had a farrier slap some shoes on him to "make him track and stand straight" because toed-in looked bad (his words). I didn't know any better and Paco was lame right away.

I've learned a lot since then, including how to read my horse's feet. I balance the foot for what it is: A pigeon toed thing of beauty. And he has been sound since I figured that out (with the help of a new farrier).
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becdubie · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject:

My toes point out....and I'm sound.
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thebundychick · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject:

appellativo · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject:

bundy, is that your thread about...cytek shoes?

ya it is. ok so I will go with what I believe to be true/makes the most sense to me. I will let Sasha tell me if she likes what was done and go with what works for her. Thanks y'all. Life is always leading me to make my own decisions and not let others decide for me. But I don't knock myself for making the mistake (it's not even really a mistake is it? it worked for some horse somewhere...)...because after all, I don't know everything and it's possible I could ever be wrong LOL
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appellativo · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject:

bundy said: "He still stands pidgeon toed, but its nothing like the severity he used to have -"

so to some degree you have to ensure your trim is NOT CAUSING the horse to stand crooked? Because if you've done that, you've done all you can be expected to do.

?? right?

in other words, the ultimate truth the hoof will form to the coffin bone, even if the leg is crooked, the older animal has already best adapted to ambulate, and if he is not lame (ie if it's not broke) don't go farting around.

right?

(in a weird mental place today....stomach flu is abounding so forgive the funky format.)
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"The world doesn't need Fight Club; it needs ponies." --Brannon Sherry

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thebundychick · Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject:

Yeah, I've got that thread, but the video link in the above post is actaully a different video - of him just tearing around like an idiot a few weekends ago

( I spent most time with my eyes closed,

)

I didn't want to "brand" the shoeing method at risk of beginning a shod / barefoot discussion - just wanted to add my own experiences without hijacking ur thread.

But you are right - your horse WILL tell you. It really is a matter of horses for courses. My current course of action appears to be working for me. (its about time something worked for his feet!)

Re: trimming / shoeing method vs pidgeon toed. Basically - what worked for Sante, was getting rid of that little bit of extra toe. Because he's pideon toed & knock kneed in the front, AAAND toed out in the back, we have fairly major weight loading problems - hence the cracks / seedy toe in the front. While my farrier commended me on the barefoot trim i was doing - he told me that foot was telling him that i wasn't taking it back short enough. - it was only the matter of a centimetre - and its made all the difference. He doesn't throw his feet out to the sid now, but walks / trots out with a fairly normal stride. Now, none of this was corrective shoeing. It was just taking what the foot was showing, and optimizing it so to speak. And because his stride is now all different, he stands differently as well. Don't get me wrong - he is still toed in - but to a much lesser degree - SOMETIMES he even looks like he's standing "normal"