It's About The Horse

appellativo · Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:46 am Post subject:

I agree on the frogs and heels. Which is why he won't be trimming for me anymore. On the rasping out the concavity.....

I know!! this is going against the grain of what pretty much everybody has been taught. This is why I have been fighting this course of action!!!!

But after hearing from two farriers who have been under the horse for over thirty years and have gobs of experience trimming and shoeing horses so that they can move comfortably, I am going to allow this Chris guy to attempt to allow my horse to move without improperly distributed torque on her joints (which is the way she is moving now). He said that 'your horse is a farrier's nightmare, and most farriers will get it all wrong.' But what he said made sense. So I'm going to give it a try, see what he does, and see if my horse receives it well. I will definitely keep you guys updated on everything! Her first trim by Chris will be on Nov 26th. Feel free to chime in with yays and boos along the way! I may even spring for xrays so chris can have a fully informed view to what's going on. Although of course we have external landmarks to go by to gauge sole depth.

I do have some easyboot gloves with pads that she gets ridden in to protect her poor little tootsies. But she goes just fine without them too (unless we are on rocky ground.)
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appellativo · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject:

Havent had her trimmed yet but will update when I do. In the meantime, I found a couple articles that talk about loading the joints evenly/balancing the hoof evenly.

To me, it makes sense that balancing the foot in a straight horse is cut and dry i.e. What You See is What You Get. And in a horse with crooked conformation, when you balance the hoof only to itself, if they are wearing it unevenly, you are perpetuating unbalanced joint loading. See the sections in the article called 'Balancing Act' and also 'Conformation Challenges.'

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=4518
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appellativo · Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject:

I was never able to get that guy to pick me up as a client. But my sister knew of a guy who she really trusted and he was in the area so he came out and we discussed. Her legs come out from her knee offcenter to the lateral (outside) side, plus she is toed out from the pastern. So her medial heels are bearing more weight and being crushed, whereas her lateral toe quarters were 'running out,' worsening her toeing out problem.

The verdict was to ensure that the medial heel did not get overtrimmed, and to keep the lateral toe quarters nice and short and the medial toe quarter left a hair 'longer' SO AS TO ALLOW THE BOTTOM OF THE HOOF TO ACHIEVE A 360 DEGREE FLAT PLATFORM. So I say something is left longer or trimmed shorter but really its just being trimmed so as to allow a flat bottomed table leg for even support. Does that make sense?

And to be sure to trim more frequently so as to KEEP it that way at all times so that the foot does not 'run out' in weird directions due to uneven distribution of pressure.
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"The world doesn't need Fight Club; it needs ponies." --Brannon Sherry

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thebundychick · Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject:

JackPNH · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:03 am Post subject:

Hi
I am new to this forum so I am not trying to flame or dispute anyone's beliefs or opinions on shod/unshod/barefoot.
Before I give an opinion just to let everyone know my experience I have been trimming and shoeing horses for more than 30 years and to be very honest what I do now has very little resemblance to what I was doing 30 years-20 years-10years ago. There has been huge advances in techniques and technology, there has be a great deal of research done and with the technology available the research can be validated or disputed.
I am neither 100% shoes nor 100% barefoot, in playing with our horses we espouse "playing with the horse that turns up". I have this same attitude with trimming and shoeing. Some horses are perfectly happy and sound with trimming and being unshod and lets be honest if that is the case that is great, it is easier, cheaper. Unfortunately there are horses that need the support of various shoes for a multitude of reasons. Now I know that not everyone is going to agree with this and I am more then happy to listen to their opinion as long as it is based on fact not emotion and ask in return that they listen to mine with an open mind.

I think the main point I want to make is that unfortunately in the farrier/trimmer game, as in all professions, there are some that are true tradesmen (oops, sorry ladies) trades people and there are some that should never pick any tool that is remotely associated with a horses' hoof.

I am a believer of balancing each individual hoof with an overview of the entire horse and that may mean on a particular horse that there may be the requirement to balance different hooves differently as is the case with my favourite horse, Jack, he has a slight case of HIGH-LOW syndrome, the "bad" hoof used to be very thin walled with a shrivelled frog and a tendancy of soreness, nowadays he has a healthy frog, not a perfect one, but healthy and wall thickness has improved to be equal with his "normal" hooves and he is shod.

Sorry about the long rant but please don't be afraid to question your farrier/trimmer and if not happy get another one, you are the one paying. If using a vet for advice, which I do, use one that specialises in equine lameness/soundness.

As said I am not trying to upset anyone but this is a passionate topic of mine. Any one that shoes or trims their particular way "because we have always done it that way" is outdated and behind the times.

thanks for your time
Steve
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Thank you Steve...an excellent post...and a philosophy I totally believe in, "treat the hoof that shows up." Great analogy! It reminds me of something Tom Dorrance says about bits (paraphrase), "the best bit for the horse is the one the horse likes best."

And, Never say always....

I have both barefoot and shod horses, each treated for what they need.

I certainly wouldn't accept a permanent crack in this hoof without trying filler, shoes, and biotin supplements for a year or more.
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Saddlebag · Member Joined: 02 May 2011 Posts: 25

It may be possible to somewhat realign the front legs but is must be done slowly to give muscles and tendons time to adjust. Even bones in a horse will adjust but very gradually. If the trim seemed a bit drastic, as you suspected there is likely nothing to protect the live sole where he took her short.

stella · Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:34 am Post subject:

Well, this has been an interesting read.....
I think its more that some of the farriers/vet/barn owner haven't been able to explain their ideas that thoroughly, that has you (rightly)confused....but a few people here have hit upon it, getting the weight distribution on the joints and hoof more balanced.

Its not that they want to "realign" your horse's conformation as much as, put her in a more comfortable position of alignment of the joints in her legs, to use her joints in a more balanced manner, causing less stress and reducing the amount of eventual arthitric(at the very least)and other possible leg problems, and to be able to perform/balance well, so its basically the lateral balance thats the concern.

The hoof has to carry the weight of everything above it, and then the alignment is crucial from every perspective...and of course, gravity is involved too. The concern is m/l akin to the farrier's version of what orthotics does for humans, balance the alignment of the joints above from the supporting foot/hoof. It won't change the fact that the feet turn out, but will better "center" the way the hoof carries what's above.

Personally, I can't see how anyone can assess the lateral balance of the hooves you're showing, without seeing the bottom of the hoof relative to how her pastern and cannon align with that plane. Lateral balance is not merely a matter of whether the hoof seems nice and flat, even plane throughout, but that hoof plane is 90 degrees to the alignment of the bones above-more so, cannon.
There is a tool for that, too, and can even be made(kind of a bent Tsquare)Rather than keep a hoof between legs, let the leg fold and align beneath the body of the horse in a natural manner, let the hoof hang relaxed, and then look at how the hoof bottom aligns with the cannon, so its more like the way the leg/hoof relationship is when the horse is both standing and moving on that leg...under the body.
I like to have a horse move away and towards me, and check to be sure when landing, that the cannons land perpendicular to the ground, and if not, then the lateral balance is off(you want the weight bearing to be centered). You want their bodyweight to center squarely on each leg/leg joint, not put all the pressure to one side of the joints or the other

On that right front, I don't think its possible to center 100%, because she'll wear unevenly, still wear a bit more to the inside, but sometimes it helps to just gently rasp a tad on the outside wall between trims to retain the balance.

A lot of times, horses toe in when they have a very wide chest and/or their legs are set more to the sides of their bodies, than underneath, to better support the weight of their wide chests, or when they have offset cannons, they don't line up with the forearm, and so the foot will then fall under that forearm. Toeing out occurs more with horses whose legs are set more closely together, and further under the chest, and/or back at the knee, to be more aligned under the point of shoulder, and help support that weight. Those deviations have a purpose, but we can still help somewhat(because "naturally" we wouldnt be riding, they could decide how much work they were doing, how long, on what terrain).

It did look to me like he had the heels back far enough for support under the fetlock, and to me, these are the top 2 priorites, as it involves so many other parts/possible stresses/strains to the horse if not addressed.
I'd love to know how your horse is doing now, and bet I'm not the only one!

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

Ask and ye shall receive.

I just had another consult, because although I moved my horse to Connies (remember, she is the kind and respectful one) last November, she too has been watching her feet over the last year and had a concern obviously, because SHE asked me to have a professional out to look at her feet! I didn't even ask what she was worried about; I just went ahead and scheduled the visit from Philip (the same AFA farrier that came to do last year's consult/trim in January. See page three I think. Connie came out to watch.

He looked at her feet, picked them up and said, "They look much better than they did last time! Good job. You can get even more aggressive with the outside toe quarter on the fronts though. As you do, it will keep the medial heel from running under/crushing. Eventually, you will chase the bulge (in the toe) from lateral to medial, until the hoof capsule is more centrally aligned with the bones above it."

If you pick up the foot, (you can see this in last years pics) if you bisect it with a line going from toe to heel through the frog, you can see 'more' surface area on the lateral side of the hoof. This will potentially correct as I continue to do what I've been doing but even more so. Remember, it's good to make changes over time and now that I've been through 'round one' of a hoof regrowth cycle, I can continue to make more progress with 'round two' this year.

Oh! And Connie's concern was that in my horse, there appears to be excess length from the palmar (surface of the front limb corresponding to the palm of the hand) coronet to the weight bearing portion of the heel, i.e. her heels look 'run under.' I've ALWAYS thought this! But even Philip agrees that I've been taking enough hoof off at the heel and allowing the weight bearing heel to correspond with the back of the frog for proper heel height and weight bearing. He said perhaps it was because she was used to looking at quarter horse feet, and she is an arab. I don't have any experience looking at a lot of different arab and quarter feet.

In any case, I HOPE that I don't have another situation where just because my horse's feet don't look perfect like every other better-conformed horse at the barn, I don't get picked on. It is sort of aggravating when you know people don't think your horse is well taken care of, despite your best efforts! Rant over

Just for grins, here is a pic from January. Terrible, I know. This is five weeks since last trim and due for trim: (front left)

Here is after yesterday's trim: (front left)

I can see the coronet bulging upward on the outside which tells me that I have not been relieving that toe quarter enough, which philip told me already. Hope to do better this year. Will have another eval in six months.
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