It's About The Horse

Clarissa

Natural V Normal

Where might the dividing line be & is it fair to cross it to help your horse?

Several years ago I was involved in a discussion with Ken Faulkner upon his return from Europe where he had spent time at some establishments like Spanish riding school, Vienna I think it was, Bartabus, & where Nuno's wife (sorry I can't remember her name just now) had been teaching & training. There were other places too & other trainers like Philippe Karl. Ken had a collection of very old books & I was intrigued by some drawings showing old techniques for long reining which I have always been interested in.

I have searched high & low to find those drawings & recently I found them again in Philippe Karl's book "Long Reining: The Saumur Method" by Philippe Karl. Someone here also put up the link to amazon for another book of this style.

This fisrt photo is of the front cover of PK's book showing the usual surcingle with many D's for various rein positions. However this style is only suitable for horses that are very FH light anyway.

The second drawing is the one I have searched for showing a surcingle rigged with long stemmed rein terrets so the reins are positioned where a rider would carry them. This makes the feel of the bit correct for the horse & encourages the horse to lift up to the bit. You can see in the drawing a horse being worked in the background. That horse is just starting it's training & requires 3 people to control the lines until the horse learns to carry itself better & lift it's FH.

The horse in foreground is obviously a finished horse.

In my case I am trying to get Sonny to lift his chest up, unrotate his scapulas, unconcertina his neck vertebrea out of the chest cavity thereby lifting his rib cage up between his scapulas. That's what lightening the ForeHand is all about.

If you can't imagine it, try this. Sit at the table with both elbows at teh edge of the table & forearms resting on the table top with your hands pointing forwards. Now rest heavily on them until your shoulder blades poke out of your back. Some people can even get their shoulder blades to touch across the top of their spine. You will have to drop your chest down at the front to get it to happen if you usually have good posture. Your shoulders might even lift up close to your neck making them very narrow.

Now lift your chest back up into position so your back flattens out again. Feel the difference between the heaviness of the hollow backed saggy chest & the lightened uplifted back shape supported with strong stomach muscles & wide strong shoulders. That equates to a light FH in the horse.

Horses that have a bad banana shaped saggy back with rotated scapulas are just dropping their chests down between their shoulder blades. They aren't using their stomach muscles at all & far too much bad forces are being applied to the back making it very tense & wrongly shaped for the saddle.

But the burning question is how do you get a horse to lift it's chest if it isn't genetically programmed to be light in the FH. Some have succeeded with exercises, clicker training, new saddles, etc. What do you do if those things fail?

This is my dilema. Can I comfortably use the surcingle with the rein terrets & still say I am training naturally. The whole idea of that surcingle is to have a big leverage bit that works the way it was designed to be used by a rider. However using this surcingle means the horse doesn't have to be ridden to achieve the result.

So it is the bit doing the training which is effectively a mechanical device which does not fall under the catagory of a natural training aid.

Philippe Karl's take in this method is to use it whilst riding by doing the neck lifting exercises that he devised which is fine for people who are able bodied. I am not & doing these exercises is nigh on impossible for me. When I can do them they do work, at least while a I am standing up on a pedestal beside Sonny. He starts with just a plain snaffle & normal reins.

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cynthia peterson · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:38 pm Post subject:

That's a pretty good post with lots to think about! I don't have any answers but I sure will be watching for others to post and anything else you have to add! I do know long lining takes incredible timing and release few people have!

Crap, I need to do that exercise myself to bring up my neck! It felt good.

I love PK too, and I do see he has a new book being released. The book you have pictured I should have bought a few years ago as it is higher priced and harder to find now.

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject:

Bit started a thread http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastforum.org/about5434.html&highlight= with 2 links in it to Amazon:-

I found PK's book while browsing at this link below if you want to check it out.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/15707642...3430_17648700_pd_recs_email_dt_t6

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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Clarissa, I have that book and you need to remember they work with Iberian horses who naturally have a higher headset so don't need a lot of work to lighten the front end. Rik and Niek have commented on this before.

What concerns me with the high-ring surcingle is that you don't lighten a horse's front end by lifting the head, that usually only causes a hollowing of the back, which can be very hard on them. What you want to do is get him to use his hind end more, step under himself and shift his weight back himself.

You do these exercises with LOTS of stepping under (usually done in Hand, see Mark Russell's book, Lessons in Lightness - which he does with several breeds of horses, including QHs) for the best exercises. LOTS of small circles, halfpassing and backing. The backing needs to be ENGAGED backing, not just stepping backwards...the rear end has to PULL the front end backwards.

I would spend 5-10 minutes each day working my way up to 15-20 minutes, working his rear end and back muscles. Then go do something else so he doesn't get frustrated and sore.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

whisperingwindfarms · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject:

I've seen Julie Goodnight's similar system advertised and have been wondering the same things. Good post, Clarissa!

I read something this week from Dr. Deb that someone had posted here or at that other forum and Deb showed where the reins should be attached at the girth - the height of them - where they should be and why. It was really interesting.
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

In Mark Russell's book, he also uses side reins...attached at the girth. They are adjusted where the horse finds the release getting behind the bit, first at a 'natural' head carriage where the horse finds its release when they get just behind the bit contact. It does prevent the horse from nosing out and putting more weight on the front end.

As for the natural vs. normal aspect, I think you do the same thing with your hands in riding. I still debate with myself which is better for the horse. One thing with the side reins, they are consistently in the same place, where hands aren't. Hands can be a lot softer though.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Clarissa · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject:

Yes Carol you are quite right on all counts. It is important to choose the right breed of horse for the job at hand & the QH type is not designed for a lighter forehand that's for sure.

Regarding exercises, I do what I can, but all these exercises are pretty hard on my shoulders if done in-hand.

I do several at liberty but whether my idea becomes his idea is another thing altogether

If I hold the lead or reins below his withers he will bring his body down to that height so I have to hold them way up in the air which I can oly do once & not for even 1min, let alone 5-15mins.

I do close circles with stepping under & lots of body bend from nose to tail;
backing including around bends;
stepping way under while trotting,
stepping off in trot & canter by doing a little rear;
doing pesade;
also a few other exercises I have designed myself that I don't have names for.

But even many of those are hard on me or if they are done at liberty they don't get done quite right which effectively makes it all wrong.

A better shaped horse would be the easiest option that's for sure!

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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Jack · Member Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Posts: 269

When I look at these pictures one thought comes to mind. If the fellow holding the reins was wearing a big sombrero and spurs many folks would say he was treating his horse with cruelty.

Just saying,

Jack

cokey · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:50 am Post subject:

I feel your pain, Clarissa! If you have a horse that's not naturally holding itself well, it's tricky.

I spent a few days with a well respected NH trainer recently, who is very into healthy biomechanics and she shared with me a piece of equipment that she uses.

It's a long piece of elastic bungee with two clips on the end. She's made it herself.

You put the middle over the back of the horse, then put both ends between the front legs and then clip to the bit.

It should be long enough to not "force" them into an outline, but merely encourage them.

I have to admit my first thoughts were GADGET!! But I suppose that it's a fairly innocuous gadget and it did have the desired response - the lifting of the shoulders and the rounding of the back.. I can see that one day I may use it too..
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Cokey, when I was young I trained "collection" and "headset" with something very similar. I had surgical tubing tied between the bosal and a chest collar. The tubing was set to no pressure where I wanted the horse's head, but had give in it for some movement and stretching while cantering. I did this with a bosal to keep the pressure out of the horse's mouth, and since I trained western in those days, I was riding with a curb bit over the bosal.

I also saw a similar "gadget" in Arizona a few years ago. The man used two sets of reins with the horse. One set was like normal, to his hands, the other set went through "rollers" and then draped over the saddle horn in a loop. The roller set up was very much like my surgical tube set up, where each roller attached to the breast collar but the roller pulled the rein (and horse's head) down and in. The rollers are the type used in pulleys and can be bought at hardware stores. Edited to add that the rollers were attached to the breast collar with bungees. I discussed this with the man...who put on essentially a Cowboy Dressage and Dance show. This was ALL he did for collection.

A third method that I learned on here is one done while lunging. I don't remember who did it, but she explained it. You run the lunge line from the far side of the snaffle, down between the legs to a ring, back to the other side of the snaffle, and then to the trainer. This brings the head in and rounds the horse, and allows the trainer to control the tension.

Three methods. All bring the horse's head in and ROUNDS the horse.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Clarissa · Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:40 am Post subject:

The trouble with tying the head to some point between the front legs is that not all horses are naturally prone to holding themselves 'up' or 'rounded'. Many horses drop their barrels (chest & ribcage) so get a very pointed wither with a deep & dropped bad banana back shape.

Cokey don’t use that ‘gadget’ until you are sure your horse will naturally hold it's rounded shape. I used a similar set up with disastrous results on Sonny.

I was having a Bowen therapist & muscle massage guy come regularly to treat both Sonny & me. His wife & daughter trained dressage horses & each time he would suggest a new ‘gadget’ or exercise for both of us to try to overcome whatever new problem had cropped up since last visit. After several months I smacked myself on the head one day while thinking about Pat’s favorite saying about “doing the same thing but expecting a different result’. That was what I was doing regarding the bowen guy & Sonny!

One of the exercises he got me doing with Sonny was to use long reins & run them from the heel knot on the halter or the rings of his snaffle bit through between his front legs & up over the saddle or his wither. It was to be loose enough that it didn’t pull on him & he was apparently to round up into it lifting his neck & head to develop a ‘head set’ I guess.

Well Sonny being Sonny did the opposite! He dropped his barrel (chest/ribcage), lowered his head almost to the ground, started dragging his front feet, lengthened his body & developed this great long brick like body with short legs at each corner & a really rough gait.

It was at the time when I had started having all sorts of problems with Sonny & I was trying all manner of treatments, hoof trims, saddles, gear, therapies, riding styles to overcome the perceived problem. Everything I did turned out to be counter productive resulting in the horse I now have that REALLY DOES have problems. So to discover why this was happening I had to learn about biomechanics, I did several clinics with other NH practitioners who had learned from masters in Europe & stop showing Sonny (& therefore winning on him). I haven't done a club day or event since.

The first photo is the horse I used to have. Then he turned into the horse in the second photo. Then he turned into the horse in the third photo. Then I started trying to actually fix the problems myself converting my newly learned info into pure NH techniques & got the horse in the forth photo. Now I want to get the horse back that I had in the first photo except my body has let me down meaning I now need tools or gadgets, & he has 1/2 a lifetime of bad muscle memory for me to overcome.

Anyone wishing to share my adventures with Sonny can check out this link.
http://itsaboutthehorse.myfastfor...m_doing_with_Sonny_about2789.html

Anyway this thread isn’t about me. It’s about what tack or gear or gadget we might consider to be complementary to Natural Horsemanship philosophy & where the line might be & why sometimes we might feel the need to stray outside the apparent boundaries.
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Clarissa · Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject:

This is how my thinking is about this subject.

Part of NH training is that of training the horse to follow a feel, using prior & proper practise in the perfect position, thoughtful application of process, judicious use of tools & apparati as laid out & passed on by experts & suitably qualified people.

Who is qualified to pass on their knowledge? An expert? What denotes an expert? A piece of paper or self proclamation? Pat Parelli proclaims that prior & …….. I’ve seen a lot of self proclaimed & papered so called NH experts & I’d like to smack them about the head with their own apparatus!

We have discussed the string halter & decided it can be a cruel tool in the wrong hands.
What about spurs? Pat uses them but nowhere is there any educational material within the PNH system about training either horse or human to their use.
We have discussed bits & non bits at length. Training to follow a feel. Leverage bits, both mechanical & non. Should it matter what bit we use so long as the horse has been thoughtfully & judiciously trained up to the standard required for use of that bit.
Also the differences in riding styles, ie English, western. English V western V gaited V aussie stockhorse. What about riding position?
Thinking about biomechanics, why aren’t all styles identical if there is only one proper way to sit astride a horse? What makes this particular riding style natural & that one not?
What about use of carrot stick & string? In the wrong or untrained hands it is seen as a torture device used by egotistical idiots.

Thinking about the use of the halter. The uninitiated person applies it to the untrained horse which may ‘run into it’ many times causing much discomfort before learning it’s boundaries. What if the untrained handler doesn’t understand the philosophy behind it’s use & therefore never develops the required finesse to use such a powerful tool? Is that person still said to be studying NH? At what point do they cross the line into or back out of the NH philosophy? How long should it take that person to grasp said philosophy before we step in & say enough is enough, you are torturing your horse for no reasonable result.

So coming back to the use of the surcingle with high rein terrets just as an example. If the trainer has used all their extensive knowledge employing NH techniques & deduced that the ForeHand is getting in the way of the HQ coming through better, therefore requiring more advanced application of following a feel in an upward direction, is it not reasonable to think that using the surcingle combined with a leverage bit is ok? At what point does this combination of apparati cross into natural when used under the terms of natural principles?

Normally, training a horse to follow an upward feel would happen whilst being ridden. That’s one of the reasons for using a leverage bit. But what if the horse can only be trained from the ground? That is the purpose of the surcingle with high rein terrets. There are several steps to break down the processes required to get the horse to the point of being able to have this device used for the training of following a feel in an upward direction. If all those steps have been undertaken following proper NH philosophy, does it not then follow that using such device can be considered natural training?

Is there something wrong with this picture? If we were driving along & saw this picture, what would our immediate thoughts be?

If we were driving along & saw a self proclaimed NH practitioner using this device what would our immediate thoughts be?

If we saw a self proclaimed NH practitioner using spurs or allowing a horse to wildly run into a string halter what would we think? We do see this & we mostly don’t have much to say about it. We do see horses running into string halters but we rarely if ever stop to ask whether the handler is trained or understands the philosophy of NH principles, nor do we think we should intervene for the benefit of the horse. We tolerate the ‘cruelty’ because the device is a widely acceptable NH tool.

Perhaps you say it’s not ‘cruelty’. Ok then, where is the line? Is it in a different place for each NH practitioner & if so what stops you doing something about it when you see that picture has crossed your line?

What about other tack or gadgets or aparatus?

Just putting my thoughts out there...........

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Most of L4 PNH achieved WooHoo!! happy10

Spitfire · Member Joined: 02 May 2010 Posts: 129

In our very small horsey group, we use sidereins and a lunging cavesson when lunging, plus two ladies use a market harborough (german martingale) on their OTTBs to help them carry correctly (typical racing TB posture). Two ladies use hanovarian nosebands, as their horses like to evade the bit and hollow out. One does it out of habit (OTTB), the other because he knows he can get out of work by snatching at the bit on his novice rider. Most of the time he has a cavesson, but when he gets bolshy, he gets a flash strap for a couple of rides.

MHs are quite useful devices, especially when having to retrain the upside-down horse and not having the strength to be able to reinforce to the horse that he must carry himself properly. Fitted correctly they prevent the horse being over-forced, like draw reins might. Used properly, and not as a "quick fix" by tying the horse's head down, I've seen MHs help quite "set" horses develop a soft topline and self-carriage.

Neck stretchers and chambons can put horses badly on the forehand.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Clarissa, I guess I'm not sure what you are asking then. If you define every piece of tack as a 'mechanical means'...which technically they ALL are..they physically affect the horse somehow...as therefore not 'natural'...you subject yourself to having to do everything yourself physically, which you personally can't do. You've painted yourself into a corner.

The only way to remuscle Sonny's back and rear end is to make him use them. You have to do that either physically or mechanically. Physically obviously isn't working for you, so that is why you started this thread in the first place.

If you want to try the high surcingle, then by all means try it. I think you could accomplish the same 'try' by putting loops up near the saddle horn and running your long lines through them. See if that helps. I think it will hollow the back, but since Sonny does the opposite of other horses with typical rounding equipment, maybe he'll be different. If you want to try it, go for it.

There is one other suggestion I have. It was from the Chiropractor who worked on another friend's horse who had loin issues. It was to take a polo wrap, run it from the center of the back down one side and around in front of the chest, back to the back, then over the back, down the other side around the rump right above the hocks, then back up to the back and tie it there. It is essentially an 8 over the horse. The polo wrap is soft material so it doesn't hurt the horse. The wrap around the rump makes the horse move his back legs in and lifts the loin and back. Her suggestion was to lunge the horse with this on. Initially at the walk, but eventually at the trot.

You might try that. If it doesn't work, the only suggestion I have is hill therapy...lots of it, including backwards up the hills.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Spitfire · Member Joined: 02 May 2010 Posts: 129

TTEAM recommend the body wrap thing too.

IMHO the only way to get a horse physically riding fit.. is to RIDE it. Sure you can mess around on the ground and lunge til you're blue in the face, but that won't make your horse into a Grand Prix specimen unless one does that hard yards in the saddle.

If you can't put the work in in the saddle, then maybe you have to accept that the horse won't reach his physical potential as a riding horse, and will just have to be a bit easy on him when you do ride.

Also, what PK does on the ground takes years to master. Years and years and years and dozens of horses. Reading a book isn't going to turn one into an in-hand master over night.