It's About The Horse

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

I was introduced to Chris Irwin methods this fall and have been working with a CI certified trainer to get my dominant, athletic 5-year-old mare started. I put 3 rides on her as a late two-year-old, then got preggo, had my son and started two businesses, so she's been on the backburner!

I am a slightly obsessive collector of horsemanship info, and jumped at the chance to work with this trainer. It's been really neat seeing a different approach from most of the things I've done recently, and get back into that classical dressage mode. It's done incredible things for Glory, and I can say hands down that I've had the best first 3 rides on her that I've ever had on the many horses I've started.

Many of Chris' methods are along the same lines of Sally Swift, but the one thing that has made the biggest impression on me - and one that I haven't seen anyone else do - is respect the horse's face and neck (the "no-go zone"). Ideally, he says you should never push or pull on the horse's face or neck area, and respect the area around it, too. By pushing or pulling, he means either physically or with your body.

It has done wonders for Glory (and my other horses), and I've started watching my horses and realizing that they really do respect each others' "no-go zones". Except for when they're bullying, they almost always push the body - it's just us predators who always want to go to the face.

Does anyone know of any other natural horsemen who also believe you should be respectful of this area?
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Celena Delaney
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

We had a discussion a month or so ago about respecting the face and a lot of horses finding it offensive to be touched there. Other then that, no. I can't think of any that talk about that.

Can you explain it farther? I haven't studied him and am unfamiliar with his methods.

I have one horse who keeps you in Zone 1. I wonder what he'd suggest for this kind of horse.

Very interesting! I look forward to reading more!
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Chris · Member Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 649 Location: Maine

I'd like to know more about this, too.

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Chris

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

Hmmm, I might have to look for that thread!

The idea behind the no-go zone is that only bully horses or predators would go directly to the head and no one should pull or push on the area. Instead, for example when haltering the horse, you would ask the horse to bring her head around to you while standing at her shoulder/girth using the "bend button" at the girth.

Another really enlightening thing that I learned from Chris' methods is about "lines". There is a line on horse and human that divides left from right, and another line that divides front from back (on the horse, this goes down by the girth, on the person its along the jeans seam). Dominant horses/people can cross any line, but submissive horses will do just about anything to NOT cross any line of someone higher in the pecking order. Carol, I wonder if this relates to your horse who wants to keep you in zone 1.

Regarding the lines thing, it is extremely interesting to observe once you know the theory - horses will often stop exactly with their line on your line, but not cross it. It's one of those things that sounds really weird, but boy am I ever a believer after seeing it happen over and over - and seeing what happens when you start calling horses on crossing your line. You can just see them going, "Oh no, she figured out the line game!" When you start paying attention, you notice a lot of horses getting points by crossing people's lines, without the person even knowing that the horse is winning the game (and not in a good way for the person!).

Oops, went off on a tangent about lines ... back to being respectful of the no-go zone. Let me say that it is incredibly hard not to push or pull on the horse's head. Even if you're all about natural horsemanship and such, when you start noticing how much pressure you put into the horse's head, it's amazing. And even just to ask the horse to move over, etc - Chris has you always move the body around to get the head where you want it - or invite the head to come to you.

Learning Chris' methods has added some really awesome tools to my toolbox - I've been incorporating them into my usual techniques, and my horses have responded really positively.
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Celena Delaney
Co-owner/CEO/Editor/Marketing & Sales Director/GoFer/Janitor/etc of Super Natural Horses
www.SuperNaturalHorses.com

whudson · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:17 am Post subject:

That sounds very interesting. Lines thing is rather confusing though.

But back to the head. The geldings in our herd at the barn constantly play halter tag as in tugging on one another's halter. They are constantly doing it. They push, pull drag around each other. No..."no" zone there. Just an interesting thought as I was reading your post. My horse is quite famous for it and he is pretty low on the totem pole. Out of 20 horses he is maybe 4-5 from the bottom.

I am not disagreeing at all , just wondering what's up there

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Wanda
Kitt... app/qh cross

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

That's funny you mention "halter tag", I've actually wondered that too and it's on my "to ask" list! They do seem to go for the face when playing.... If I find out, I'll let you know

Sorry about the lines thing being confusing. The "line" running down the front of us, through nose and bellybutton, is equivalent to a "line" running down the horse's face and between his front legs. The "line" running down where the outer seam on jeans would be is the same as the horse's girth line, dividing front from back.

Basically, you don't want the horse to cross the any of your lines with any of her lines (unless of course you ask her to). He doesn't do the "circling game", he longes horses, but using very specific body language to help the horse soften, bend and relax. I was skeptical at first, but the horses really respond to it in my experience - you keep them interested by changing things up all the time, it isn't about chasing them around, it's about helping them travel better and more comfortably, and building your leadership at the same time. Anyway, definitely different philosophies vs. Parelli.

Sorry about the tangents.... Anyway, as an example of the lines thing, say you're longeing a horse to the left (her left side on the inside of the circle), you ask her to yield her hip and come in, but she keeps going. As soon as she passes your "next" line (whichever one she gets to first) with her line (this will be her girth line), you would get after her to the degree that she dictates.

I apologize, this is hard to explain! I'm just getting comfortable with these concepts myself, but I will try to clarify further if anyone would like.
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Celena Delaney
Co-owner/CEO/Editor/Marketing & Sales Director/GoFer/Janitor/etc of Super Natural Horses
www.SuperNaturalHorses.com

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:52 am Post subject:

I totally get the line thing! I'm picturing it all in my head and I can't wait to see how it works with Bodie when I see him Monday

Thanks!

whudson · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:13 am Post subject:

I understand a little better

Just not able to picture too much putting it to play.

Wondering what response you will get re the halter tag thing. Let me know..curious mind

In my experience mares don't do it...just geldings. Actually, the mares at our barn don't play at all.
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Wanda
Kitt... app/qh cross

cynthia peterson · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject:

Let me say first Wildhearts I totally understand your obsession of horse information, I have that too! And it drives people who don;t have it nuts! Your question was how other NH trainers/clinicians deal with this question. Believe me, I have studied that point too. The November SC Magazine has a Level With Me article with Linda about leading with the check. We have seen it many times, Parelli, even the Bill Dorrance book. And I think the clue there is to do it in small bites, the main idea is for the horse to follow the feel anywhere on their body. I can totally see how this could be offensive to the horse to begin with. Let me give the example of how well a beloved boyfriend could touch your check or chin for a kiss, and how you could abhor someone else touch anywhere near your face! That's the way I see it, the horse will allow it if you work with it offensive. To come at it without it would cause a offensive block with the horse... and it does. Let me take the catwalk and Pat uproar. IMO Pat *thought* he had done enough to get near that horses's face and the horse thought he didn't. Because it was the very fact of coming toward that horses face (and horse) that caused it, not the bridle.

If we want to go *how* other clinicians think of the concept of the face, way back as far as I could study, the ODG masters, Professor Berry, all had a place to get to gently stroking the horses head as a breakthrough that is greatly valued and the horse will seek.

So that's how *I* see it. Personally i like Irwin too. he has the horse's best in mind.

The lines? I see the same way. In fact for someone to grab me from behind would be the worst thing you could do to me. Don't you think the same idea applies? Work on trust and get everywhere on the horse?

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Well, I wasn't there to watch the Catwalk incident so really can't comment on it. I understand the horse had a long standing issue with the bridle, which is why he was sent for the demo.

I do think the head issue is very individual horse-dependent. Just as posted here, some horses are very particular and others are just the opposite, love Zone 1 stimulation. It was over-stimulation of Zone 1 (the Pepe Le Phew game) that got Bruiser to quit biting at Liberty. And believe me, it took a LOT of stimulation before he decided he'd had enough and to step back.

I haven't seen and can't comment on the clip with Linda. But I do remember a very nice clip with Pat and Magic where she is at liberty in the pasture with him and he's stroking her face and talking about how sensitive she is with it. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember at the time being pretty moved by it.

I think the drive line in the horse is commonly taught and used. I've never thought about my own drive line, other then where I'm facing, focus and intent. Linda did a very good demo on it with where your belly button is facing and I've had a lot of success when I remain cognizant of it. Again, with some horses it doesn't seem really critical, but with young, green, or sensitive horses, it is absolutely critical.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Chris · Member Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 649 Location: Maine

Wildhearts, this is very intriguing and I'm ordering Chris's videos on Giddyupflix.
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Chris

cynthia peterson · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject:

The Linda Parelli article was in the last Savvy Club magazine. The "demo" picture horse was Magic and , uh (Sr moment here) Cali (sic?) the Parelli gal who does so well with the Atwood horses and *I think* Pat's right hand man. Actually, it was pretty good, and I used it to show it can be done if done right (even with Magic!) Now Casper just seems to tolerate it even to this day. I still think it wasn't about the bridle with Catwalk, it was about not coming at his "not there, no one gets there" spot, his head. I *think* Pat thought he put enough time in to get there (he certainly had many times before on other horses successfully) and this particular horse took more or Pat for some reason (such as the horse not showing him enough) went to go ahead and found out differently. We have all "been there, done that." That same SC Magazine (Nov.) gives Pat's side for the first time with Linda telling the story.

Again, this is a maneuver every master horseman I have ever read or seen does, gets successfully to the head and strokes gently, as a successful breakthrough point. Now maybe *they* read it wrong, maybe Chris Erwin has it right. But, from my studies that is what I have seen. I do like what I have seen of Chris Erwin and every successful clinician has to have *his* own special thought or movement to stand apart.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Kalley Krickeberg is who trained the Atwood colts. I think Kalley is one of the most natural people with horses I've ever seen.

Not being in the Savvy Club anymore I don't get the magazine. I had thought that the incident with Catwalk was Catwalk being very LB and saying "You and Who's Army!" about the bridle. At least that is what got from 'somewhere'...other accounts? Not sure. I wasn't aware that it was a head shy issue.

Perhaps 'that picture' of the trainer stroking the horse's face at Liberty is BECAUSE of the head permission issue. It shows a level of trust and partnership and maybe that is why they use it. It also seems like a bit of stage to me, since it looks like they're 'whispering' to the horse...no? LOL

My main point here is though that like most things, some horses have issues with something and others don't. Just like Giacomini's tapping, I have horses that if they relaxed anymore they'd fall over.

But others really benefit with a relaxation cue, and especially one that can be done from the saddle without interfering with reins or legs.

I think Chris is right on with the driving line. I also think a lot of horses have head, I'll say "dignity" issues, because it's not like they're really head-shy, but that their head space is within their 'don't go' bubble. A lot of people don't know about this and don't even think about it. I watched Buddy's reaction when my sister would go to kiss his nose...he wasn't happy about it at all. He is one with a big bubble and only lets people in it carefully.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

cynthia peterson · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject:

I know, Carol, the first thing non horse people want to do is pet your horse on the nose or kiss it!

I sure misspelled Kalley's name (more Sr moment then I thought!

) And I too think she is amazing. Somewhere I heard there are many who tried to "steal" her away from Pat with no success, she's that good.

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

YesButNeigh, let me know how it works for you!

Whudson, I'll definitely let you know when I get an answer. I'm going to be interviewing Chris Irwin this winter, so if I don't get an answer before then, I'll just ask the man himself!

Cynthia P, I've got to agree - being obsessed with horse info can drive other people crazy! What is leading with the check? Sorry, I've haven't been involved with Parelli for awhile.

I absolutely agree that how sensitive horses are with their heads are very individual. I've been finding that just respecting the head/neck area by only pushing on the body has really increased my level of leadership. It isn't about not ever touching the head, but keeping your energy down when you're in the "no-go zone" and whenever possible, asking the horse to bring her head to you instead of you going to the head.

Carol, are you talking about the driving line as the line that runs along the scapula? What Chris describes in "don't cross my line" lines are different, running down the front of the face/body and at the girth area. He does also recognize the drive line. My mare is incredibly sensitive to all this body language, and I tell you, if she gets away once with crossing one of my lines, she'll take a mile! Once I clued in, it sure changed my relationship with this very dominant horse.

I also don't know enough about the Catwalk incident to comment - sounds like a number of things contributed to that one going wrong. What did the article by Linda say about it?

Chris, let me know what you think of Chris Irwin's video!

Thanks for all the insights!
_________________
Celena Delaney
Co-owner/CEO/Editor/Marketing & Sales Director/GoFer/Janitor/etc of Super Natural Horses
www.SuperNaturalHorses.com