It's About The Horse

cynthia peterson · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:26 am Post subject:

Wildheart: Oh heck, it is leading by the CHEEK, the horse's cheek, which of course would be the head and tie into the thread! It doesn't make much sense if I misspell it, does it?

To All:
Incidently, in the same November SC Magazine is Linda Parelli's explanation of the Catwalk Incident. It is the first time someone there came out with the full details (at least Linda and Pat's perception of it) and it's a good read. It gives better insight on it. And after all, Linda was there, and Pat told her what he thought, that's as close as you can get other then the other hundreds (maybe thousands there) You always wonder what was going through Pat's mind while it was happening and what he thought of it. And how it all turned out.

whudson · Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:23 am Post subject:

Anybody care to share?
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

I'm also curious what Linda said. I thought the "first word" was when Pat apologized right after it happened. I don't remember exactly what he said though. Please share what she said.

As for "the drive line," I see Pat and others put it at the scapula. I see it more often at mid shoulder, and that seems to be where my horses put it too. Maybe the exact where is where that horse puts it. The important thing is for the human to recognize and use it. I think it is great that he let's students know how important it is.

All, I find my non-horse friends try to understand me..and love me anyway. Me husband's reaction while Alayna was here, was the same as her dad's. "Do you two talk about ANYTHING besides horses?

Is there anything but horses?

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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Blue Flame · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:56 am Post subject:

Pat often ties a SS around the horse's neck so that the drive line runs from withers to shoulder. Others place the drive line at the girth. I place the drive where the riders leg will be in order to be more consistent for the horse.

Linda has often mentioned the belly button and I like Dr. Deb's visualisation of the belly button laser. I find it makes a big difference to the horse's forward progress if you are careful about your aim with the belly button laser.

Referring to lunging and walking around with the horse versus standing still while the horse circles . . . .

Parelli largely considers walking around with the horse as chasing or nagging. Yet others consider standing still while the horse circles as leaving the horse unsupported and maybe a bit lazy and rude. I think there are valid reasons for both viewpoints and it comes down to the discrete release of each step the horse takes.

If a person can ask the horse to move 1 foot over 1 step, without the horse taking another step with another foot that wasn't asked for, then they can release at each step. When the horse is circling, an observer will likely be unable to see these releases at each step - but the horse knows and feels the releases. This then becomes the difference between supporting the horse versus chasing it. (When circling/lunging, I've found that the best results, in a biomechanical sense, come when the handler gets in time with and communicates with the inside hind).

On headspace . . . I've found that any particular horse may or may not want you near their head/neckspace at any time. I've found that whether you are welcome there or not has more to do with your manners than anything else. i.e. having the thought of requesting permission and signalling your intent before reaching for them - many are just surprised by a movement they weren't expecting. Yes, some may be more sensitive about it but you just make adjustments for that.

We've just spent a couple of days with Peggy Cummings and several high headed horses. She showed us how to help them considerably and her methods involved extensive handling of the heads and necks - it really became all about the quality of the connection made with the horse on a physical level. To sum it up, most of the quality of connection is about how the human carries themself, biomechanically connecting to their own core, than anything else. In her words, it was helping the horse to "let go of his own head".

Sidenote: I've read comments by Julie Goodnight and some of her associates about how they consider handling of the muzzle area a no-no - something about it being a submissive thing to do - never bought into that myself and have not had trouble with horses whose muzzles I've handled that couldn't be corrected quickly and easily.

Oops, rambled on a bit there . . . . .

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:57 am Post subject:

cynthia peterson · Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject:

Blue Flame, you always add good comments I love to read. So just ramble away anytime you want!

I will post a few lines on Linda's comments from the SC Magazine article of the "Catwalk" incident. I will put that in a new thread. I will post it with no comments from myself, just Linda's words (but not the whole pages worth, just the highlights) as I think it adds to giving some answers. From there, you can form your own opinion. And I'm not really trying to bring the whole incident up again, I just think it is significant Linda gave some answers now.

I keep hearing things about Peggy Cummings..... interesting.

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

Cynthia - that makes a bit more sense! I was wondering what I was missing!

Carol, interesting about the different drive line areas. I guess I've never really heard anyone but Parelli talk about exactly where the drive line is, so apparently I was accepting that as a universal truth. Funny that I did too, because thinking back, I always found that horses responded to it long before I got to the withers/point of shoulder line. Hmmm....

Blue Flame, super interesting stuff. I need to do some more Dr. Deb reading! I have been amazed by the whole "belly button laser" or "beam" (Doug Mills) or "core" (Chris Irwin) affects the horse, and think that every horseperson should have some knowledge of that. It's like the missing link.

I'm intrigued to hear more about the discrete release of each step if you feel like enlightening me

I am at a point in my horsemanship where I finally understand that it really is all about footfalls/timing/feel, and am a bit enthusiastic/obsessive of learning all that I can about it. This student is finally ready.
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Blue Flame · Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject:

Wildhearts, about the footfall thing . . . . . there are much better people to learn footfall timing from than me, so my post is going to be about the mistakes we make and why releasing each step is important . . . .

The release with each step is something Dr.Deb mentions on her forum and even though she detests PP, it is something that has always been part of the Parelli material.

Even way back in L1 porcupine game there was the "rub, porcupine, rub to a stop" lesson that rewarded the slightest try. However, the deeper meaning of it was not really explained in the materials I have. It wasn't until a L2/3 clinic with Jackie Chant that someone from Parelli said to us about releasing each footfall individually when riding.

I think in Parelli land (and this probably is one of the reasons Dr. Deb gets all anti) two things happen that create a problem that we need to deal with when we get more knowledge.

The first is that the human is happy that the horse moves when porcupined and makes the mistake of thinking that a light touch which gets several steps is a good thing.

The second thing is that once the human gets something going with the driving game, they make the mistake of thinking that this is a better thing than a porcupine game since it has gone from a "touch" to a "suggestion".

In many cases, what happens is that the horse learns to "flee" the touch of the human. The problem does not look like fleeing until you ask the person to move just one foot just one step. In the more pronounced cases, they can't even get their hands on the horse without it taking at least two steps away.

Again, it wasn't until we did a L2/3 clinic with Jackie Chant that it was emphasized to us that next to the friendly game, the porcupine game is the most under-done game. When you think about it, refining the porcupine game IS the way to transfer groundwork to ridden - as contrasted with refining the driving game which transfers to liberty, not the saddle.

To give an inkling of why Dr. Deb. (IMHO) gets so down on Parelli when she sees the horses "fleeing" their human's touch, consider this little extract from Andrew McLean's 7th Principle of training horses – Fear . . . . . . bold emphasis mine. I’ll quote Andrew McLean because he puts it in really plain language.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Thank you Blue...an excellent post. It makes me again appreciate Margaret and our many clinics and lessons. Yes, there is something to be said about hands on help.

My best friend and I were guilty of exactly what you described. Our horses are very sensitive, and it wasn't long at all until our Porcupine game was so soft we didn't even have to touch our horses...just point and we got rear end or front end yields, backs, we were SO impressed with ourselves! We proudly showed Margaret how 'soft' we'd gotten our Porcupine game. LOL That was when she told us we had a very soft Driving Game and had failed our Porcupine Game, to go back and redo it.

At the beginning of the Old Level 2, Pat does a demo about getting in time with the feet, using your hand and your rein to affect each step, to develop a rhythm of pressure and release, and how and when you affect each foot. You are quite right. It is there, in the program.

Your comments about Dr. Deb bring up something I see a lot on here, and that is the assumption that something isn't in the program just because you don't see students doing it right, or you didn't learn it correctly when you were going through the program. Affecting and directing each foot is right there. I think the multiple step mistake Pat even talks about in the Level 1 Controlled Catastrophe lesson.

In both Level 2 and Level 3 the program gets the student to be more and more particular and precise about affecting each foot, timing and release.

I can't tell you how many clinics and lessons that I've been in since, and videos that I've watched of other clinicians, and remembered learning it in the PNH. Leg on, leg off, timing the hips/legs with the hind end and the shoulders and hands with the front.

Of course, I'm getting older and I'm pretty sure I've forgotten well then half of what I've learned over the years. It often takes just a reminder to remember that yes, I DID learn that, I just didn't or don't use and apply what I learned.

One thing I learned a long time ago reading DD's forum was to discount a lot of her barrage against Pat. Something happened between them years ago that DD has not gotten past. The other thing is that she has never done PNH herself, so really doesn't know what is/is not in the program. I find that is true with a lot of detractors.

Going back to the shoulder discussion, I'm not sure how many of you have tried or done this, but you can affect your horse's speed and gait by affecting the shoulder. By walking towards the shoulder you can get shoulder overs and Half-passes at Liberty. Get too far in front of the shoulder and you'll stop and turn the horse. Too much pressure they turn away, but a step back at the right time will bring them in. It's an interesting dance.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Wildhearts · Member Joined: 03 Nov 2009 Posts: 47

Blue Flame, thank you for that post!

Saddlebag · Member Joined: 02 May 2011 Posts: 25

Oh my, I certainly follow what you are saying about Mr. Irwin's teachings but I have one horse that is quite fond of having his nostrils stroked while I face him straight on. I tried from the side but he didn't want that. I have watched predators stalk large grazing animals and never has one approached straight on from the front. They know the prey can do damage with their front hooves. They will attempt to come in at the prey's blind spot directly behind. A wolf will move in fast to slash the hamstring while the others distract the animal and keep it running. Because I have seen this I've often wondered why some trainers say to never approach from the front when this allows the horse to watch with both eyes.