It's About The Horse

xenophon · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: Founder Rehab Question

Does anyone know of a well documented case of a foundered horse with the coffin bone sticking out the bottom of the sole being rehabilitated?

I so, where can I find this documentation?

During a discussion about barefoot versus shoes, my vet was adamant that a horse suffering from founder this severe cannot be rehabilitated, ever, and must be put down to avoid any further excruiating pain. I have read that it is possible to rehabilitate such a horse and that it has been done. I believe I've even read a protocol somewhere for treating it, but that the odds are still against the horse.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Go to the Yahoo Cushings group and ask this question. There are a lot of people who have saved a number of horses with severe rotation. I have never heard of saving one this severe. I might have to agree with your vet.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
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Clarissa · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject:

I think it is Pete Ramey who has a photographic history on is website of a horse with this problem being repaired & recuperated.
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Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject:

See the "Severe Founder with Sole Penetration" Case on the page at this link: www.naturalhoofcare.org/casestudies.htm .

See "Tin-Bear's Story" at this link: http://www.naturalhoofcare.org/tinbearsstory.htm

See the "Miserably lame Quarter Horse. P3 is penetrating the sole, with extensive sub-solar abscessing" Case on the page at Pete Ramey's
link: http://hoofrehab.com/rehabilitations1.htm

In my opinion, it takes a combination of exceptional horse, exceptional owner/caretaker, and exceptional trimmer/farrier/practitioner to accomplish these results. However, we can all be the "exceptional" with correct protocol and willing participants.
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We must be willing to let go of
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appellativo · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject:

My first thought was get a different vet but my second thought is, educate your vet to the possibility of it being done. to see it can be healed and to fail to do so IMO is is closemindedness or laziness. I suppose that arguing to heal it could be interpreted by some as selfishness on the part of the human but I think that where remodeling (edit: I meant complete bone loss but used the wrong word) of the coffin bone has not occurred, it is to the benefit of the horse so that the horse can have a chance at a recovery and a longer happier life.
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Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject:

I think of 'remodeling' as the body's ability to repair and even rebuild damaged internal structures, including bone. With this perspective, I believe that when proper venous circulation is enabled to return to a foundered foot, that it is possible to 'remodel' P3. It is my understanding that the mechanical downward pressure under a descended or rotated P3 compresses the solar material and disrupts the venous circulation in the solar corium. Which disrupts the blood flow supporting the P3 bone. Which causes it to break down.

Change the mechanical downward force on P3, enable the foot to function as it is designed (w/proper trim protocol), wait for P3 and internal structures to reverse pathological descent and/or rotation relative to the hoof capsule, and give the horse's body the opportunity to repair and even 'remodel' itself.
Including the repair of the corium and of the bone.
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We must be willing to let go of
The life that we planned
So as to have the life
That is waiting for us.

~Author Unknown

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

learningthedance · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject:

I agree with what everyone has said. Although I am not a big fan of Strasser (especially in the wrong hands), she really has made a name for herself when it comes to healing horses with sever (penetrating) founder. Horses that no one else would touch. It can be done, but absolute dedication is needed on all levels and the horse has to have the desire to fight also. I really do believe you can tell when they want to live and when they have had enough. As long as the horse is willing to fight, then I think anything is possible. Once that fight is gone, I don't think any intervention can help that particular horse. Founder is a long and rocky road with many up's and downs. Just be ready for them, and listen to your horse.
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xenophon · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject:

Thank you all very much. I do not have a horse with this condition but have been sharing others information on facebook about hooves and trimming that I thought was worth considering. One particular website I shared spoke quite authoritatively about founder and treatments for it, including rehab of a hoof as described. My vet saw this and posted some not very complimentary things about the information concluding by calling it "BS". She has never been insulting to me personally, and in fact has encouraged me to continually seek out more info. She is not opposed to barefoot trimming as long as the horses remain sound and the owner recognizes what she considers to be the performance limitations of a barefoot horse. It was in a private note to me that she said that when the coffin bone penetrates the sole, the pain is too severe and it would be cruel to try to fix the situation. "...ever" she added.

The examples some of you have shared, and the thoughts that others of you have shared have been helpful. If there are anymore to share I look forward to reading them.

Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:33 pm Post subject:

whudson · Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject:

appellativo · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:10 am Post subject:

In the instances that I've heard it used (if my memory serves, which it could be in error!), the term remodeling is used to denote permanent damage (ie it is no longer there!) to the bone. If the bone is not there, so much pressure has been done to the venous structure that no bloodflow/nutrient is delivered to the area and thus the hoof cannot fully heal. That is what I mean by remodeling in my previous post.

mandy's marty, have you already told us about her recovery story? I'd like to hear that...
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Mandy'sMarty · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:53 am Post subject:

Check out "bone remodeling" and "Wolff's Law" via a Google or Bing search.

Here's one link that describes it nicely:
www.teambone.com/chapters/basic/remodeling.html

Regarding Mandy's Founder Recovery story: I've been so focused on helping her heal and recover that I haven't been able to write it. It's a remarkable story. It is now a happy one without an ending. She keeps getting better.
My friend the founder specialist, who is also highly trained in veterinary medicine, can not explain Mandy's ability to recover and re-create herself.
I believe that Mandy has been teaching me about energetic healing as a compelling alternative to allopathic medicine.

But to answer your question: It's a story worth telling. And it will be told.
_________________
Marty

We must be willing to let go of
The life that we planned
So as to have the life
That is waiting for us.

~Author Unknown

appellativo · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject:

Dang it I hate when I've been using a word wrong!

I very much look forward to mandy's recovery story! I hope I don't miss it when you post/write it!
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"The world doesn't need Fight Club; it needs ponies." --Brannon Sherry

http://sites.google.com/site/erinscarolynresnicknotes/

xenophon · Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:43 pm Post subject:

Last night I posed this question to the creator of the web site mentioned above and this was his response:

"I asked the most famous Swedish Vet. Prof. about sole penetration and he said ""everyone is talking about it but no one has ever seen it"". I'll be back with more info."

Hmmm. And he spoke with such authority, too.