It's About The Horse

Sidekick · Member Joined: 25 Feb 2010 Posts: 26

I don’t write too much on forums, but when I do…..!

I read a lot here and elsewhere from Parelli folks questioning whether the method has really helped their horsemanship in the long run. For example, some people feel they need to ‘undo’ some aspects and even feel the method has been so detrimental that they blame it for lameness, their horse's bad attitude, etc.

I too have experienced doubts and re-assessing what it is I want out of the P-Method and out of my horsemanship journey in general. First thing I did was separate Parelli Corp, the Parelli’s (Pat & Linda) and the Method. Personally I am SO over the 1st two, however (!), I still believe the P-Method (philosophy, horsenalities and a refined skill level of teaching the 7 Games) is great as a foundation to build from.

The following are my interpretations of the P-Method (started in 2003).
I would like to hear others thoughts along these lines. Whether you agree, disagree –or~ have something to add of your own?

The Horsenalities were meant as a:
1. guideline to take care of the ‘horse that shows up’….instead it’s become a stagnant label and less about improvising.
2. means to help you develop strategies to bring your horse more in the center and therefore, a more willing engaged partner….instead it’s become an excuse on why the horse and human are not improving.

The 7 Games were meant for the human to start out with gross motor skills and learn how to go from SHOUTing at your horse to refining down to the subtleties of body language horses use with each other and for building confidence…..instead you continuously see a Level I skill level habitually being used on higher level horses instead of the progression a student should be moving forward with.

Freestyle Riding was meant to strengthen riding skills and develop an independent seat. Strengthen horse/human responsibilities. Become a more balanced harmonious rider and not relying on reins for communication. ….instead it’s become a picture of sloppy, lazy riding and bracey horses.

Groundwork/Liberty, well, what can I say….it starts out great, but then you are instilling in your horse incorrect movement (i.e. dropped shoulders, front to back movement). Would have been an excellent progression of P-Groundwork to develop into dressage In-Hand work to teach correct lateral flexion and how about some real cavaletti usage…..instead I guess they hope you don’t notice that they’ve really dropped the ball teaching biomechanics. It's not rocket science and IMO should be required learning for all methods/disciplines!

Finesse Riding…..hmmmm, someone else want to fill in this one???
I’m at a loss here. Some good stuff is there, but still no attention (that I can see) on correct biomechanic development.
For me, there just doesn’t seem to be any continuity with their teaching under this heading....a great disappointment to me.

I guess I just need some validation that my original interpretations of the method are what others thought too.... I never drank any kool-aid or created a shrine in my home. Simply put, they inspired me to become a better horseman and I have learned a lot. So, I guess in that they succeeded, even if it means moving on. I just wished I didn't have to search out other teachers...all the Parellism lingo has become part of my language around horses and P-friends. It all becomes Russian when you get out in the larger horse world.

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

Go ride with Buck, you will quickly find all the shortcomings in the "method".

Those that label Buck as a bridle horse trainer are missing out on some of the best horsemanship available.

Mike
_________________
I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

Spitfire · Member Joined: 02 May 2010 Posts: 129

Where is the LIKE button?! GAH! I'm becoming way too "Facebooked".

Like, twice. Both posts, A+

learningthedance · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:45 am Post subject:

ElaineW · Member Joined: 03 Feb 2009 Posts: 1465

I can't say I have had to undo, cause with the horse I have now I have not done much of that 'method'. I don't know what "horsenality' Levi is cause I just refuse to poke him in a " human label box".. When Levi showed up in the pasture, literally, I started using Bill Dorrances book for my training,, and Buck's ground work book/dvd.

I had no great success with parelli. It sure as heck did NOTHING for my riding.

The greatest lesson for me has been to open my mind and learn from more than 1 PERSON.. Even though now I focus alot on Buck Brannaman's dvd's, ground work and riding. I don't have tunnel vision with it. I met Buck last year, he's A M A Z I N G...
But you know what?
I am sure there's OTHER horseman out there that's got something I can learn.
What I see happening is some started hard core diehard parelli.. would slam those that didn't do parelli etc..
Now they have traded Parelli for Buck..and now they bash parelli. What will happen when they find someone better than Buck? hmmm???
Well they will bash him too.. some humans just have a need to focus on 1 thing it seems. Till the next 'new' thing comes down the road..

Bill Dorrance's "True Horsemanship Through Feel", Leslie Desmond's dvd's, Mark Rashid's books, dvd's , Buck Brannaman's dvd's, books and auditing clinics , watched some Chris Cox even, this is what i have been up to.

A human can learn alot about themselves from a horse. But what you should learn first and formost is how to be a better human FOR the horse...
I have read alot of Eckhart Tolle's works, Cesar Millan (spelling) yes i know he's a dog trainer.. but he's VERY in the moment and teaches that..
Mark Rashid's books are FANTASTIC ,, I can't brag on his stuff enough either!! He talks alot about the power of focus, finding the try.. well I could go on and on.

What have I kept from parelli?
The Friendly Game.
That's it. in a nutshell.

What EVER method you use,, at least learn about FEEL..
Learn it and apply it to ANY METHOD YOU WANT...
get that good soft feel.. it's priceless.
Pat actually TRIED to teach us FEEL with the 'phases'..
I truly think the human can do any method they want if they as least learn some softness...

AS for the horse that shows up.. well it's pretty interesting that it depends on ME what horse shows up that day.. If I am nervous, scared , worried, sad, afraid, etc.. well that's what my horse will be..
You work on YOU and it'll work out..
I 'never' have to 'deal' with the horse that shows up... I have became dependable on the INSIDE.. so he's dependable.. I have not had Levi a year yet and we are doing good together..
before he would not lead the group, could not go out alone, herd sour, etc etc.. but with these fine trainers materials and TIME.. lots of ticktocks..
I have a horse that WILL lead the group, I can ride alone, he can trust me. i can trust him..
We are a team,, but parelli could not get me there..

whisperingwindfarms · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject:

Buck's trailering DVD unlocked a 5 year mystery for me that PNH couldn't solve so I'm partial to anything he does and will go see him anytime I can.

That said, my horsemanship didn't really take off until I started taking lessons with a local trainer who learned from Lynn Palm, Richard Shrake and Bob Avila (go figure - names that are rarely mentioned here). I add this because it's possible to find people who mesh with the method but not with the name.

Beth has helped us immensely and she continues to do so on a weekly basis. I can talk with her for 5 minutes and get a golden key to a problem. When she gives me the key, I am almost always smacking myself in the head and saying, "DUH!!!!". (I'm slow but I'm a lot of fun!)

I wish I could tell you how to find your local Beth. I can't. I do believe that there are thousands of Local Beths around to be found. I don't discount my foundation through 1/2 of L3 in PNH. I also don't discount that in the long run, it held me back. These days I do my best to look ahead - not back.
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

I would say that everyONE of your "Insteads" are totally individual student dependent. It reminds me of a saying, "When you are 18 you can blame your problems on your parents. But when you are 21 and you still have those same problems, you have no one to blame but yourself."

I say this because I've never gotten "stuck" nor have any of my friends that I ride with regularly - all who did Parelli together. A lot of people graduate from High School and figure that's all they have to learn, ever...and so are stuck. Same with a B.S. in college. Other people are forever students, realizing that there is always more to learn.

I agree with your first paragraph. I don't get hung up in Parelli, Inc. or what is going on with Pat and Linda, but still maintain that you won't find a better step-by-step horsemanship program anywhere. Does that mean PNH is ALL there is to learn? No...there's always more to learn. Does that mean everything they taught was perfect? Do you know ANYONE who is perfect?

The Horsenalities were ALWAYS taught to be tool...they were ALWAYS taught to be fluid, that you "train the horse that shows up."

I have never seen a "Higher Level Horse" stuck at Level 1. How in the world do they get to be "higher level" at Level 1? That makes no sense at all. I will say there are PEOPLE who DRILL horses at Level 1. There are also people who DRILL dressage, gait, sliding stops, turns...on and on. These are people problems not program problems.

The same is true for Freestyle or Finesse. It is a GROWING program. You are supposed to Progress THROUGH the program and get better, refine, improve...if the PERSON gets stuck, it's again a PERSON problem. There is no "STUCK PLACE" in the program!

I would like to know who defines "correct" or "incorrect", "brace" all of your descriptive terms there. There are probably as many different "correct" definitions of "correct collection" as there are horse breeds, shows, events, and competitions that use the term. Remember that any statement is just ONE person's opinion. I like to consider the source of criticism and decide if they are really objective or if they have an agenda of their own. I don't believe there is a horse performance anywhere by anybody that SOMEBODY can't find fault with. Seriously.

If you are comparing Finesse to Grand Prix dressage, you probably have a point in 'more correct'...but if you compared Finesse to "no program at all," your typical backyard pleasure rider, then I think you see a big difference. PNH isn't meant for Grand Prix dressage, it's meant to train backyard owners.

You know several of PK's students started out with Parelli. They are growing on, learning new ways to ride and train, building on what they learned before. Just because there is new learning on top of old learning doesn't make the old learning "wrong."
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

BTW - if what you are asking is "IS it OK to outgrown Parelli?" then the answer would be YES...I think everyone who learns and progresses does. All of the good students do, Pat and Linda do. That doesn't mean you HAVE TO throw the baby out because the bath water got cold. You just move on. I think everyone here moves on...in all directions. That's why the study of "horsemanship" is so fun and interesting. There is always more to learn.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

I was thinking more on your comments and even Freestyle is taught to be exactly what you describe...good for an independent seat, teach leg, weight, and focus. If people are sloppy, lazy, and put brace in their horses, whose fault is it?

Giacomini talks about horses ridden western (or freestyle) getting bracey because of the 'threat' of a huge bit. Now, Parelli doesn't teach you to go to a huge bit, but other people do.

I don't understand the part about biomechanics not being in the program. I remember it in the Old Levels, I learned more in the Linda levels, I think they've included even more in the newest levels. There is a lot in Karen Rohlf's program. You sometimes it's not that something isn't there, it's just that we don't SEE it there because it isn't spelled out as such.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Sidekick · Member Joined: 25 Feb 2010 Posts: 26

I see my comments were grossly misinterpreted and I deeply apologize for not writing a clearer picture of my thoughts. I am first to admit I am not good at forums and should stick with personal conversations!
Alas, should I make another stab on this forum, I will keep it shorter and more clear. Thanks for all your time. Onward!

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Well, you did put a lot of thoughts in one post and ask for other's "take" on it. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were asking. Yes, asking perhaps a single thing at time might be a good idea.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Julie · Member Joined: 07 Feb 2009 Posts: 1297

I see parelli as what IMO it was, a 6 week course to get you in tune with your horse - able to balance, load, ride, handle your horse without pulling its mouth. That was level 1. Level 2 was refining it a bit if anyone wanted more. level 3 was to learn to teach. After any level you move on to your required discipline with a basic grounding.

I would take the old level 1, then add different teachers for different subjects. You can only teach what you can do, and IMo other people can do finesse far better than the parellis, we just wanted more!
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karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

For the record, I agree 100% with everything in you original post.

One of the big holes in Parelli is to dumb the horse down to our level instead of forcing us to rise to theirs.

Yes, they have bio-mechanical issues.

For the record, I have had serious breakthroughs at every non Parelli clinic I have ridden in over the last year. Things I really wish I had been taught correctly years ago...

Mike
_________________
I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

But Mike, that is your experience. It isn't everyone's. THAT was my point. I see many successful students, I see some not-so-successful students.

But, I see a lot more who never even tried.

You want to go on with your Horsemanship, as do most here. But how many horse owners do that? And wouldn't the world of horses be a lot better if everyone got at least through the old Level 2?
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

learningthedance · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: