It's About The Horse

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

It's just recently that I have begun "cantering" on the ground, like when I was a little girl. Funny how they pick this up as a sign for them to canter......... sorry, I'm kinda late to the party and having a lot of DUH moments lately

Better late than never, I suppose.

This is exactly why you all should continue to state the obvious for those of us that might not have known or noticed it before

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Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject:

My silly boy LOVES to canter. So much so that I am having to bring him back to gait and remind him that any time I ask for more, it doesn't mean insta canter. He pops RIGHT out of that lovely smooth gait straight up into a canter. I can get the canter from a stand still or a walk no problem but now that he is allowed to have freedom to move out, all he wants to do is canter. It isn't a hot thing because we can have this nice little canter, almost like a lope. Guess I probably need to reward for a couple of strides of gait then go back to a walk, wash repeat so it isn't just canter, canter, CANTER! Due to surgery soon I won't be able to make the Whitesill clinic but next tear we are definitely going! Rented a Larry dvd on giddyupflix, it was scratched. Guess he's real popular :ps: sorry for the typos, on my phone.

Also, I know this horse needs professional help. I plan to get it for us as soon as I can

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Sheeesh Emili........ when I ask for more I get a pace when what I really want is a nice canter. She was raised and trained by my uncle and he REALLY believed that a gaited horse was meant to gait so in her mind............ canter might be bad, don't know

Gonna try Stella and Carol's suggestions: Work her on lateral movement and ride the canter with my seat

_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Nancy and Emili, why don't you just trade horses!

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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

stella · Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject:

Well, I was looking for someone to specifically define what they meant by "active" seat, because there's so much variation of what that means in the horse world, and certainly in gaited horses.

From the historical background of many gaited breeds, an 'active' seat can be sitting back there on your tailbone, scooting to put pressure on, with your "feet on the running boards," head and shoulders hunched forward, all to engage the horse's hind end to scoot under more, get a bigger lick, etc.

Of course, most of us really don't want to be doing that. I do use my seat to stop or slow a horse, with proper use of my aids....if done correctly, not really very perceptible that you used your arms or hands at all, being if you work from your shoulder, stay relaxed, the correct and minute weight shifts occur...just enough to "talk" to the horse.

Which relates to what I'm talking about....that first and foremost, the horse must be concerned with maintaining its balance, despite our weight on it, and yet do whatever manuveurs and speeds we ask, willingly and as immediately and correctly as possible.

So of course, what we do up there, makes a difference to the horse, not just physically, but mentally as well. Personally, I want the horse to be a willing partner, and enjoy what we're doing, and trust me fully. So, in training it, I am careful how I use my seat, aids, weight of my body. I can either put the horse in a position of imbalance to get it to do something- such as, shift my weight to the right to get a right turn- that gets the response I want, turn right, but for me, not by the right reason- I've put the horse in a position of imbalance, and he/she just reacts to "save" their balance by turning, basically "ducking under' to center the rider's weight again. Every tiny bit of weight change, pressure you add, a horse feels and may have to adjust to; it can't see you well, but first and foremost, it feels you, for better or worse.

Does this have an effect on the horse's relationship and trust in you? I think so. I prefer to teach the horse by using my body/seat/aids to help the horse balance itself better, and stay "out of its way" at the very least; preferably, aiding it to feel more secure. Its what I give back to the horse, my thoughtfulness, when I ask it to respond to me. That's the give and take of it. I'm the benevolent dictator, but I give my horse what it wants the most...to feel secure.

Once the horse "gets it" that you are there, not just to tell it what to do, but also, helping it do so in a safe, secure manner that helps it stay well-balanced, you are "looking out" for its well being as a good herd leader should; then the trust is going to be there.

Of course, its important to be very, very consistent about this(because, good herd leaders are always consistent), and think through every move you make, not only HOW it will affect the horse, but also WHY- does it help the horse retain balance, or are you eliciting the manuveur you want by putting it in a position of imbalance?

The first thing that attracted me to this forum was its name-"its about the horse"(ok, reading some of the posts, lots of intelligence and knowledge here, too!)...but I really believe in this perspective, and try to actively ride and train with this in mind.

That's why, I try to stay consistent in how I ride, so the horse can always count on me, no matter where we are. I ride the same if I'm in a training ring, at a show, or on the trails. I don't think horses have a priority list on those activities! Those judgments, of when its important and when not, are ours, not theirs. My horses can always count on me, the same...and I expect the same level of manners and performance from them.

I've always bred horses for trail/pleasure horses, and my perspective of shows has been as a means to an end(using it as a gauge to my training progress, horses' abilities), not THE end. After all, the riding rings are flat, where is it more important to do things in balance? On the undulating, irregular trails....that's where it'll make the most difference to the horse, the way I see it.
In the "old days"(yeah, even before me!)when horses were the main means of transportation, then that was the perspective on horse shows, too... a means of judging abilities for other purposes. Of course, nowdays, many people own horses and compete because competing, in and of itself, is the priority-that is THE end. That's ok too, but it still works better if you put the relationship with your horse first. It gives that horse that tad of extra "shine," that willingness to win for you, give 101% because it wants to, which is called brilliance.

Ok, and the other point I want to make is, that gaited horses have a much larger "reportoire" of how to retain their balance by being able to vary their gait so widely...from being pacey to trotty, not necessarily having to change from an intermediate gait to walk or canter...or even, to refuse or misbehave in some other way...or even, have many leg problems. So yes, if your horse isn't consistent in gait, then how you ride and the horse's frame/balance should be fully explored. We owe it to the well-being of our horses to learn to ride them as best and kindly as we can.

jackspark · Member Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 4477 Location: Missouri

Gonna be doin a lot of thinkin about this, Stella.
_________________
Nancy

Flying Monkey Trainer

A journey of a thousand miles must
begin with a single step. Lao Tzu

Yes_But_Neigh · Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:13 am Post subject:

What happens if you just like..... ride faster and faster and faster and faster? Can't trot/pace/gait forever! Maybe that's too simple. That's how I always teach my babies to canter, gaited or not. When I backed a twh gelding, that's what we did but we had to do it out on the trail. With their big strides, we'd be from one end of the arena to the other in less than a second. Uphill too. I find that horses like to dig in going uphill anyway, (doesn't have to be much of a hill at all, just a slight incline) and it puts them on their hind end which gives you that good gait from their hind and eventually they just fall into canter. Sadly, it can take horses years to learn how to canter when they were trained by people who are against gaited horses cantering. Rode one of my trainer's horses that took a good 8 months to learn it was OKAY to canter. He feels like a wobbly rocking chair. I haven't read Stella's response and am certainly no trainer, these are just my own experiences in getting youngsters to go into the canter, sort of on "accident" and just praise praise praise, long rein, ride it forward, encourage more AWESOME!

stella · Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 1:37 am Post subject:

Well, actually there's plenty of gaited horses that can sustain a gait faster than a canter, considerably faster. The pace is a faster gait than a trot, in and of itself; and yes, a somewhat trottier horse may eventually go into a canter- or, a gallop-which is a totally different gait than a canter- but, gaiting, particularly for horses with strong lateral tendencies(more prone to break to pace)have more difficulty going into a canter, because it has a diagonal emphasis, and their diagonal transition(from one set of supports to the other)isn't as strong as their lateral support system.

Yes, if you're going fast downhill-or even uphill, if its a scramble, that horse may very well canter, and it may do so for the purpose of trying to maintain its balance, and avoid falling. But, that's the point I'm trying to make- to try to avoid putting a horse in the position of imbalance as your regular cue. If there's one thing a horse innately hates, is to lose its balance, it fears it, it could be death next. Friends don't put friends in dicey situations, if they can help it.

Yes, it may be necessary a time or two, to have the horse "by accident" give you want you want that way, and praise it profusely(I'm a big believer in praise), but you want to instill some other sort of signal, body language or verbal, fairly quickly...sometimes the same location(at the beginning)helps....but you don't want ultimately to just have a horse that reacts to you throwing if off balance..thats a defensive reaction, to protect itself. You want a horse to respond to you out of willingness, not out of fear. A horse that does that is so very much more rewarding, its the icing on the cake of horse ownership.

The reason to take your time, is to keep your horse sound over the long term.....and on a short term basis, not ask it to do stuff its physically not in condition to do well yet, especially not while carrying the weight of a human , to boot. One thing humans have to learn, I think, is patience...treat well what you love, even in this "instant" society.

Plus, particularly with a young green horse, I still want to instill the trust in me to be the protective one, from a mental viewpoint too. That later makes it so the horse is always willing to try to do whatever I ask, without resistance. It makes training get so much easier and easier, once you've instilled the idea that whatever you've asked, has never been a negative experience or elicited fear or pain. There might even be, "something in it" for them! (you've taught them more secure balance/agility-they love that!)If they're tired at the end of a session, its a "good" tired, one that will help build muscle and densify bone, strengthen them(helps them gait better/more consistently too), not tearing down tissue and making they muscle/leg/body sore.

If you're not careful in how much you ask of your horse, don't consider their current condition, you can be causing problems you don't even see. Overworked, muscle tissue can get tiny microscopic tears in it, which is replaced by scar tissue. Muscle tissue has elasticity, but scar tissue doesn't, so the movement of the horse will become more limited.

The horse may not even seem sore or lame. (that doesn't mean they're not hurting) We've all seen, mostly at shows, horses that perform brilliantly their first year or two, and then by the time they're mature- but quite young- have "lost" alot of their brilliance, they're "way of going" has changed gone from fluid and wonderful, to mediocre. This is what happens when a horse is pushed too far, too fast. Even if a horse has a brilliant mind and willingness to learn quickly, there's only so fast you can get the horse well-conditioned.
Sometimes people get upset when their horse doesn't do things as well or quickly as they'd like, but its not that the horse doesn't want to, it may just not be in good enough physical condition to do so. (if I ask you to drop and give me 50, right now, can you do it?)

I like going into a pasture with a lead shank, and those horses(usually youngsters lately) know someone's going to work, and they're pushing each other out of the way to get to me first, they look forward to work...ooh,ooh...take me, me!...even if they know they're going to do some sweating. And the attitude of whoever gets to go, just energetic about going to the barn, as if to say, "what're we going to do new today? Makes my whole day.

PS. Just re-read your post---first of all, I don't think there's that many people training that are "against" cantering, they just want the horse, like any other non-gaited breed, to learn to canter from a cue, rather than "mix" gaits at will...its will, & not the rider's will. There are some people that ride gaited because their backs and/or knees can't take trotting, and for some, cantering is also painful. Those people may not want their horses to canter. As I said, the more lateral horses are more difficult to train to canter, and may take alot longer, just because they have to learn how to use themselves somewhat differently, and need to condition some weaker areas, if they're quite pacey. But, it does help "square up" a pacey horse, to train it to canter. (basically, you have to train them to use their hind ends/legs in particular differently than they're used to)