It's About The Horse

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

I have to say that I never expected to create a Dr Deb thread but these articles appear to contain some excellent information that I have never read or heard expressed any better anywhere else. A friend loaned me a few copies of Eclectic Horseman and I took some notes of Dr Deb Bennett's articles. I think I'll post a few notes each day. I'm not particularly enamored by Dr Deb's attitude sometimes but I do believe that you often just have to get over your opinion of the clinician personally and focus on the substance of what they're saying, if you can find any substance, and I think you usually can with most clinicians. I certainly think that applies to this clinician. There is some good stuff here, imo. Make it about the horse, not about the clinician. That's what I would like to focus on. This isn't the definitive word on Dr Deb by any means so anyone is welcome to correct or enhance these notes. I just thought perhaps someone might find them useful if they haven't read these articles. They include some rather complicated concepts that are difficult to put into words. There is also a heavy emphasis on anatomy insofar as it relates to things like collection, mechanical devices, etc.. There are also terms like "twirling" and "pulling square on the reins" that probably should be clarified first.

Dr Deb seems to me to be defining "twirling" as a movement of the horse's head where the jowl is tucked under the throat without tilting the head. This is distinguished from the common action of "tucking the nose" by the fact that twirling is a sideways swiveling of the head at the poll joint where the rider can see the horse's inside eye and tucking the head has no sideways movement unless there is tilting of the head. I think that Dr Deb is saying that "pulling square on the reins" will give you a nose tuck but no twirling because it involves equal pulling on both reins. In order to create twirling, you must have a different feel on one rein than you have on the other rein. It is this intricate and delicate differential between the two reins that induces twirling in the horse's neck. The horse then responds by giving the rider a "soft feel". It is also this differential that allows the rider to talk to each foot individually, btw.

The horse has a particular anatomical structure at the poll joint(located about 5" directly below the poll) where the first vertebra connects with the skull. The first vertebra(also called the atlas) has 2 cup shaped indents on each side of the vertebra that fit over two knob shaped structures of the skull which are called occipital condyles. The cups and the condyles are all bean shaped which creates an eccentric type of function along with the synovial fluid which has the effect of keeping the entire joint lubricated.

It is this unique anatomical relationship between the skull and the atlas that creates 2 types of movements possible at the poll joint. The first movement is a simple tucking of the horse's head. It is the second type of movement, which is much more important than the first, which allows twirling or side-to-side swiveling to occur.

According to DD, the condyles of the skull have a narrow edge which fits into slots on the cups on the first vetebra(atlas). Thus the head does not rotate. Instead, the condyles slide across the slots in the atlas, keeping the head level but swiveled. If the horse's head tilts, it's not being twirled and it is being flexed at a different joint in the neck.

The advantage of twirling to the horse is that it helps the horse release any brace in the muscles of the neck, the end result of which feels good to the horse. The advantage to the rider is that the horse responds with a "soft feel". The problem is that few riders are aware of the twirling effect. And fewer still are able to manifest it. Therefore, few people ever ride with a true "soft feel".

Larry

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

Right, and this is what makes the way most are teaching it wrong.
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PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

karmikacres · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2009 Posts: 1182

I'm talking about flexing with no regard for proper position of the head.
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I guess sometimes, on the hopeful path to glory, we get sidetracked and find something better instead.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Well, in that case, I think "wrong" is one person's opinion. I have worked Rosie, per Vet/Chiro instructions on neck flexibility for the past year, and while some flexing keeps level ears, other stretches don't. The important thing is to stretch ALL the muscles of the neck, both laterally and vertically.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Carol wrote:

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Here are some more notes involving twirling and the anatomy associated with twirling:

Dr Deb gave a reference at the beginning of the article that I really like. She broke the "inner horse" that man cannot see into two parts, the skeletal parts like bones, tendons, ligaments, organs, etc., and the horse's thoughts, emotions, and spirit. Right now, we are mainly focused on the skeletal part, obviously.

We have to include mention of the second vertebra which is called the axis in order to describe what happens during a failed attempt at twirling which is what commonly happens. We have, in the horse, the skull, the atlas(first vertebra), and the axis(second vertebra). Due to the unique structure of all 3, twirling is possible only at the poll joint(juncture of the skull and atlas), and tilting occurs at the juncture of the atlas and axis. When tilting occurs, the poll joint has already jammed because the knobs and cups of the skull and atlas, respectively, do not allow the head to tilt. So that joint becomes a locked unit. That brings into play the joint formed by the atlas and axis which is the only place in the horse's vertebral column where tilting of the head is freely accomplished. This allows the rider to be aware of which joint is being utilized when the horse turns and tucks its head. If the head is tilted, the atlas/axis joint is being accessed. You can watch the horse's ears for an indication. If the ears are unlevel, you do not have twirling. You have tilting. So, the association is like this: Poll joint/ twirling; second joint/tilting.

One thing that is confusing for the rider is that twirling and tilting are both accomplished by the same basic signals on the rein by the rider. Dr Deb's drawings show 2 ways to ask the horse for twirling: One is a soft raising of the rein by one hand or the other; the other one is a simple turning-over of the hand so that the hand is palm-up, similar to the Parelli instruction for indirect rein(I think).

Twirling requires no force and it is a relatively minimal movement. The unique structure of the poll joint does not allow for extreme movement but apparently twirling provides significant benefit to the horse. The rider needs to recognize when twirling is occurring and he/she needs to know the limitations of the movement in order to give their horse the benefits of twirling which are available to every horse when the rider learns to make use of them.

Larry

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Hmm, that is interesting. This is from Russell's Lessons in Lightness:

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

You know, the mind is a funny thing. I really couldn't tell you what I bought on the grocery list just Wednesday, but I remember this discussion of Mark's...and I read it years ago.

I honestly don't think it's critical which joint moves what direction, they are so closely related. The point is to relax that area.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Blue Flame · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject:

Larry,

I think the most important thing to take away from all this is the part about never having a square feel in the reins.

In order for the horse to twirl the head, there has to exist a differential in the muscles which twirl left and those that twirl right. Therefore the muscles on one side will be more released in reference to those on the other side - and this relates back to not having a square feel. If the horse is going to carry a brace in the poll, it has to carry it bi-laterally or else it would be flexing to one side or the other - thus the key (again) to the vertical flexion lies in being able to unlock the brace laterally.

Then, as the horse moves, if you are oscillating that left/right feel differential in the reins in time with the feet, you get alternate releasing of one side in reference to the other.

I learned about the power of oscillation in relation to getting a horse to release a brace from Peggy Cummings . . . the smallest oscillation can bring down a building or mountain if the frequency (footfal timing) is just right. Similarly, you can break a piece of high tensile wire by bending it back and forth. Many of Peggy's exrcises are designed for the purpose of getting the horse to, what she calls, "let go of his head".

If you get a chance to read further Dr. Deb also goes into twirling the loins by untracking. When you combine this with twirling the head, then you might get the horse to let go of his ribs.

Carried further beyong the poll joint alone - this principle of oscillation is also applicable to Buck's short serpentines. IMHO, I could be wrong

AlythLong · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject:

To bring understanding back to its simplest level is the following correct in terminology?
tuck - nose towards chest
tilt - ears unlevel, nose lifts
twirl - aka flexion? - ears level, nose comes backwards.

To elaborate on "flexion" you can have it in minute amounts - just see the eyelash - or gross amounts - nose to boot.

Those would be the 3 basic movements of the atlas/axis/poll?

Alyth

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Alyth, it takes all a lot more then just those joints to flex to the boot. I also see horses who flex to the boot who have no release of tension through the poll and TMJ and jaw. I think DD's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that your goal is relaxation, not necessarily flexing or twirling.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Carol, I think that what each joint does only becomes critical when the rider interferes with the natural movement of a joint. In the absence of a human, I think the horse usually doesn't have a problem. Everything works as a unit until man shows up. I see that Mark Russell and Dr Deb apparently disagree on which joint, the poll joint, or the atlas/axis joint, is responsible for twirling. We probably do need to try to resolve that point of contention. My point of reference is strictly Dr Deb Bennett in this thread. I would imagine she could be wrong but hers is an educated opinion. I'm not promoting her point of view, simply trying to interpret it. My interpretation could be wrong.

MR also uses different terminology. See, it's that language thing again. Humans are so communicationally challenged.

I guess the occiput is the skull? the atlanto axial joint is C2 or the atlas/axis joint? Where exactly is the TMJ joint located(base of the jaw?)? I don't think I recall DD commenting on that joint. But you are right that it is about relaxing. I am thinking that is roughly the equivalent of getting rid of the brace.

Sandy, I do have some decent notes on the bilateral muscle structure of the horse and why both sides shouldn't fire at the same time. I also have fairly good notes on untracking. I'll probably post those tomorrow or the next day.

It sounds like you have read these articles, so please, don't hesitate to clarify or correct my notes. It just makes good sense to me that riders should have a working knowledge of how a horse's body works. And how the horse's mind works too. Right now, we're focusing on the body.

Alyth wrote:

Blue Flame · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:00 am Post subject:

AlythLong · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:09 am Post subject:

I agree with both of you!! I was simply trying to establish the basic terminology. So far all I have read, considered and tried with my own head (visualise me sitting here and moving my head in all kinds of directions!!) comes down to twirling and flexion being pretty much the same movement. I can't see twirling and tucking being compatible!! As Larry said, everyone uses different words to try and describe what they mean, and each of us interprets those words in different ways!! Alyth