It's About The Horse

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Larry, I think you are right. The potential for abuse is there with any piece of tack, the more severe the tack the more potential for abuse. One of the biggest problems is just what Stella mentioned, most people have no idea how any piece of tack works, where it applies pressure, how you use it so it applies pressure or release, even what you hope to accomplish with it. I see people use a big bit to get a 'nice headset' not realizing that that headset is really the horse evading the bit, even with no rein pressure

Also, going back to Stella's comment about competition, that is IMO when we see some of the worse abuse of any of kind of equipment. When your mind is on anything besides your horse's mouth, the potential for abuse is much higher.

I readily admit that my hands are not perfect, that there are times I am thinking about my camera and the picture I'm trying to take, rather then if I'm applying too much pressure. I only use bits for certain things, but I don't kid myself that they are kind or soft.
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Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

I'm not worried about the spade bit, Carol. I'm REAL worried about the HUMAN HANDS that are attached to it.

I'm also an avid gun supporter. I think everyone should be able to defend their life with a gun if need be. But yes, I'm REAL afraid of some of the people that USE them! That's where the problem lies, not in the device.

Here's some gaping mouths in snaffles just so it's even:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msnjZP6Zu8k
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Erin wrote:

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

Erin, it was your "just ignorance and fear that makes people freak out." statement that set me off. It is neither. I have made a long study of bits, bridles, leverage, and their effects on horses, and read everything I could find on it. So, I do not post from a position of "ignorance." I strongly resent your statement.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time looking at the pictures of Californio and Vaquero Ranch roping contests that have been posted on the Internet and later Facebook. What I have seen time after time was the same people saying that the spade was just a signal bit, and was used with "soft hands respecting the velvety softness of the horse's mouth" threw all that softness right out the window and pulled, jerked, and forgot about softness when they were roping competitively. I saw and still see a lot of horses in pain, evading the bits and the hands. You might choose not to SEE it, but do not accuse me of being ignorant because I do see it and will never condone it. What I see is just as bad as what is done in Polo, which I can't stomach either.

I went the Natural Horsemanship route to be as kind to my horses as I could, and still have a safe ride. "Anything forced and misunderstood, can never be beautiful."

I was first introduced to the Californio tradition about 12 years ago by a man at a Doma Vaquero show telling me about the incredible tradition of Californio horsemanship contests where they would do more and more complicated things with the horses, and the contest was to be lighter and lighter on the bit. I was fascinated by it and joined the Californio Yahoo Group in its early years. I loved the horsemanship of the Doma Vaqueros - right until I saw more of it.

To be honest, I'd like to see any contest that claims "horsemanship" in its name done without nosebands, without tiedowns, without cavesons, and without bosalitas and then SEE how soft the rider really is with their hands. See how kind their bit really is.
_________________
Carol Nudell
Corazon de Oro Paso Finos

"The path to your horse's heart lies through your own."

Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots. - Words of Wisdom - Mhar

‎"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss activities; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Clarissa · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:23 am Post subject:

nothing more to say!

embarassingly I have to admit the rider is a supposed Aussie horse trainer of repute.
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stella · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject:

Well, to a certain extent I'd have to agree with Erin, but its more so, because of not really being educated on what to use, understanding how it works, and how to use it, and people really not being as good a horseman as they think they are, too. (and any horsemen that thinks they're "done" learning, is going to go backwards, its a constant process, every day-even for pros)

What I see here in my area, is the vast majority eventing and hunter/jumper persons--and this area is a major part of even the winter "A"rated USET circuit, ....using drop nosebands on snaffles to keep their horses' mouths shut on the bit, rather than see it as a sign of bad hands, or wrong bit(including wrong snaffle)....so, that's what's "trending now"...and we all know, everyone must copy whatever is "trending now" to be "in." A certain brand this or that, whether your horse really needs that or not...but, a much better, famous rider uses it, so it must be good, as being the main criteria, and that's again, just searching for a quick bandaid.

What we have is, as in many things nowdays, is a major marketing and manufacturing problem. They are mass manufacturing, promoting and selling bits and other gear-including some that have no business in ANY horse's mouth(a cathedral first comes to mind)- just to sell you stuff, and what do they care if you're not that level of rider, just play guinea pig with your horse and torture it, they got their money. (yes, I just love it when someone sets a limit of what they'll spend to buy a horse, so they can buy a trendy saddle that costs twice as much-I just don't get that as being a real horseperson-a saddleperson maybe)

I agree that "stuff" is not what will get you further with your horse...the biggest problem I've seen with horses I've gotten for re-training in the past is--not really a problem with the horse, but the owner's lack of understanding, and no self-concept about their riding ability, and they needed most of the training. Horses get frustrated when they don't understand what it is you want, more than anything. And there are WAY too many people doing that, relying on equipment, instead of improving their own minds and bodies in riding/communicating. But I guess we just can't "see" that, like we can something tangible(ok,a knowledgeable eye will "see" and value it in a rider-but as we know, the best riders don't look like they're doing anything hardly at all)

So Carol is showing all the bad stuff(but rather one-sidedly, must've learned it from following politics:).......but I'd have to ask also, what context were those pictures lifted from on the internet? Ones showing how awful people were treating their horses, or ones that were proud of what they perceived as their macho control and "daring" on a horse?

Its like, when I go to Paso Nationals and many of the riders are overflexing and doubling their horses(usually using the bosal, not necessarily the bit), unnecessarily, just to let people know that they're "with it" and give the impression to others that they know what they're doing on a Paso. That's NOT about the horse, its about ego, and focusing and blaming the equipment is misdirected, IMHO.
Unfortunately, in horses there get to be many different little "cults" about what's good and bad, people lose perspective because "everybody's doing it," so their attitude gets blase because they're just mimicking what they see others do, to fit in.
Yes, like going to a built up TWH show, which are usually at night, so you don't see what they're doing, and they don't have to face reality either-but taking the equipment away doesn't help, pulling a horse by DQP doesn't help, they'll invent something else...its their minds, giving an alternative knowledge of humane way of training might be better).

What about all the people that only use the various levels of headgear to establish more and more detailed communication lines with their horse, with understanding, in a totally humane way? Well, that takes many years of hard work, and is too complicated and boring in the minds of many...I agree Erin, its knowledge that makes the difference, keeping a set of priorities that focuses first, on the well-being of the relationship between yourself and your horse. And again I say, its too bad its not as tangible as "stuff," or more people would work hard to achieve it, and not try to take shortcuts.

What I do like about this forum, is that there are more people wanting to think and explore issues in depth. It is a good idea to learn from many, get a good perspective "in the round" in a sense, see from many different viewpoints--and ultimately, you have to synthesize, customize what YOU do with YOUR HORSE, and it may even change alot, as to whose ideas you draw from, from situation to situation.

And, lastly, yes-it would be nice if every horse could go bridleless, no headgear. And I bet that even the people capable of doing this, will tell you its only possible with SOME horses, not all....but in the end, it starts with knowing the equipment and using it correctly, in helping initially establish the lines of communication, and tweak them(yes to a whisper!) before you can take the reins(and headgear)completely away.

And, I don't think its something they'd do in a group trailride either. Horses are not machines, both them and us are prone to distraction, its unfortunately, not an ideal world.

PasoBaby_CarolU · Site Admin Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 9038

I have posted this link before, but Stella is new to this discussion, although she's known me longer then any of you here. She also knows I feel no differently about the Colombian spade then the Vaquero spade. This link talks of the spade, very much like Erin and Stella do...in fact many paraphrases of his words have been used on this forum defending the use of the spade bit...

http://www.elvaquero.com/The%20Spade.htm

In an ideal world and under ideal circumstances, I probably would have no problem with expert horsemen using this bit. My problem is what he has in this paragraph:

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Carol wrote:

stella · Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:22 am Post subject:

I have seen that site before, because I think you posted it on one of the PF forums, and in seeing/reading it again, I do have to mention that I don't like the American made curbs for the most part...for one, most have the mouthpiece solid into the shanks, so you do engage in the mouth always, although it can limit...but the western bits, by having a big round ended purchase so the bridle just slides through, so that there is no "stop" from the top end, as well as having a fixed shank, makes for the mouthpiece to roll forward way too far, and the curb strap/chain more or less, clamp down onto the lower jaw, almost like a trap, and that's why you see what you often do.
Should've thought of it, as its so common....not something I'd considered using for many decades.

But, I still contend that, 19 out of 20, the problem isn't the equipment or even the horse, the problem is, what's lacking in the knowledge and ability of the rider. It doesn't get fixed because, the problems are almost always sought somewhere else...the horse, the equipment, etc.

The perception is askew. I agree, that most people don't need to be using much of the equipment out there, the variety nowdays enough to make anyone's head spin, but they will never replace or repair, the long hard work it takes to become a truly good rider and even more so, all around horseperson.

coveredbridgefarm · Member Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 1626 Location: Missouri

Stella wrote:

ErinR76 · Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 506 Location: Austin TX

Carol I didn't mean to call you paranoid/fear or ignorant, so I'm sorry! I understand now where you are coming from....the words are simply not translating into the reality from what you have seen. I will admit that I have not personally sought to expose myself to the Californio performances or much other Vaquero/traditional horsemanship so my understanding/experience is limited to the written INTENTIONS of those horsemen. We all know humans in general tend to have harder hands when we are hot and heavy in the moment of working cattle.

And yes, people are WAY less likely to take personal introspection and responsibility and changing themselves, than they are to look outside themselves for solutions.

Under that last statement lies the deep philosophical reason we as a species has tended to remain 'devolved' for such a long time.
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A horse is NOT a large dog that thinks like a person.